Athena Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Oh yea, another time I called his office to speak to him and his colleague told me he had gone to England! I said, "WHAT?!? I just spoke to him yesterday and he never mentioned that trip to me!!"... an hour later my husband called me to sheepishly say that THAT explanation was meant for a lover who he was trying to shake off, and that he had asked his colleague to tell any woman who called asking for him, that.
Furious Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Deception is by definition imperfect because one must lie and it is difficult to lie with 100% accuracy. That is why there is no perfect affair. Lying cannot be done with absolute perfection. Very true...it's much easier to remember the truth and it's a lot harder to keep track of the lies that have been told. Most affairs are discovered and very few are confessed. It's astonishing how so many WS's believe they will never get caught and yet they do get caught, and it's usually by something so random no matter how well they believe they've covered their tracks. 1
Athena Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Deception is by definition imperfect because one must lie and it is difficult to lie with 100% accuracy. That is why there is no perfect affair. Lying cannot be done with absolute perfection. Lying doesn't have to be done with absolute perfection... where there is doubt, there is also no absolute proof that they are for sure, lying, and even if so, lying about what? It's all shadowy, and a BS can easily give them the benefit of the doubt. Also, WS tend to opt for HIDDEN affairs, as opposed to lying outright. It's easier to omit pertinent information, rather than tell outright lies. Another thing -- it's easier to tell a Partial Lie and get away with it, than tell an outright lie.... so... a cheating spouse may well say what they were doing, but fail to mention that they were with someone.... the details seem real enough in the telling, and pass for the Truth. 2
Happyface Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 xMM believed he had it all sewn up... the perfect deception. He used to say he should never be anywhere he couldn't explain. He and I used to go to various places and he would take many photos to prove he was there. He also used to say "always have a story ready". I believe he could do all this because he was so familiar with his wife's very busy schedule . She was totally occupied with her charity as president and many obligations. It seemed so because he had so much free time. He came undone because he simply lost track of time. He had no explanation of why his phone had been engaged for 45 minutes. He also missed her 12 calls until he walked in the front door. She demanded that he hand the phone over and he did, I have no idea what ensued during the following family Christmas day. Somehow, I doubt it was the best time he has ever had. He has since told me that nothing will ever be the same at home again. Guess he is fortunate to still have the home at all. He was very confident that he had it all worked out and would never get caught. He said he wrote the Bible on how to have a perfect affair. (CRIME.) I do hope everyone can look at this and take it as a gentle send up of what happened. I do not mean any disrespect to anybody by writing this. It is the tale of one man's undoing. Near death by mobile phone!!! Happyface.
frozensprouts Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I think it's somewhat easy for someone who's cheating to get away with lying ( either to spouse or affair partner) because the person they are lying to probably loves them ( or at least likes them quite a bit) and when you combine that with the tendency a lot of people have to want to see the best in people, it's easy to fool them. No one wants to not be able to trust the one they love...it's a horrible feeling to feel that "unsafe' with someone... that's part of what can make reconciliation so difficult... there can also be a sense of embarrassment and feeling really dumb for not being ale to see the lies earlier ( not sure, but I think that may also be true for other men/women who were lied to by their married man/woman)... 3
yessy21 Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Ha. My XH first mistake was...(Drumrollllll Pleaseeee).... locking his cellphone. After 2 years...allllll of a sudden you lock your phone? after that ... his brokenesss..... coming home late and drunk almost everynight.
beenburned Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 During my H's cheating period, all of his friends/coworkers were also serial cheaters that bragged about their conquests to each other. When the other wives got suspicious, they followed their H's around until they caught them with the OW.(this was before cell phones and computers- cheaters used pay phones or work phones to communicate) We were the only couple that had children,so even though I was suspicious, I couldn't just up and follow him. All of the other wives filed for divorce, and then they realized I was still in the dark about everything. One of the wives called me with all the info, and my d-day occured. I was so mad that I left and took the kids to live with my parents, fully intending to file for divorce. Before I left, I called his parents, who lived next door, and told them why I was leaving and where we were staying. By now all of his friends/coworkers were divorced, and he got to hear daily moaning/groaning about their new single life and how much money/assets their XW got in the divorce. It took about a month for the reality of just how different his life would be to sink in. He then cried and begged for another chance. I agreed to come back on a trial basis only, as I really didn't think he was capable of long term change. He totally surprised me by his hard work and dedication to me and the kids. He was a changed man that was very grateful to still have a marriage, and he showed it everyday in many ways! 2
Spark1111 Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 My H too grew distant, moody, and argumentative the year before dday, but we chalked it up to job stress. He had received a new, high=powered position, one we had been praying for, that required lots of travel to places, many of which, were difficult to reach by cell phone. It turned out to be the perfect cover for his affair with a D co-worker. On an extended family reunion, he went to the airport to pick up our children and took my cell phone by mistake as I played Scrabble with his sisters by the lake. The phone went off and I thought it was our kids, but it was a man? texting through. I thought, odd, since we were on vacation and it was late at night. I started reading the texts associated with the number while concealing my shock from my SILs. First thoughts? My H was gay having an affair with a man, until I realized nah, it's a ruse. I then scored a 7-letter on a triple word for 141 points (still can't remember the word!) leaving them in the dust. I waited four days, playing all sweetness and light, and accumulated all the evidence I needed before confronting him, including pics of them, cell phone records, bank statements, and who and where and how she lived. (Pics were at her house). 2
SoMovinOn Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Most affairs are discovered and very few are confessed. I don't know if either of those comments is statistically accurate. I have the impression many affairs are not discovered, but then, who would know?
SoMovinOn Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Deception is by definition imperfect because one must lie and it is difficult to lie with 100% accuracy. That is why there is no perfect affair. Lying cannot be done with absolute perfection. It's far easier to not lie. A's that run into trouble (i.e., get caught) tend to involve lying, people doing things to make time to be together (saying you are in one place when you are somewhere else). If you can manage the A while being where you are supposed to be, on your own time, your avoid needing to lie and probably avoid being caught.
Furious Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I don't know if either of those comments is statistically accurate. I have the impression many affairs are not discovered, but then, who would know? Sure there are many affairs that are never discovered but for the ones that are it seems very few are confessed as opposed to getting caught. This thread alone, is a sample of that. If you don't mind my asking...You caught your wife cheating, and do you worry that your affair partner may also get caught?
Author MissBee Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 Deception is by definition imperfect because one must lie and it is difficult to lie with 100% accuracy. That is why there is no perfect affair. Lying cannot be done with absolute perfection. I'm of the mind too that it's difficult to lie with 100% perfection. It's so true that if you're not lying you don't have to remember anything. I think human nature and the simple fact that we can forget things makes it difficult to lie with perfection...those who can...well I think they have a "skill" most don't. With small details though, I think it registers for most of us that something is off, but usually it's small enough that we see what we want to see. It's not until it bursts wide open or becomes more frequent that we can replay every small detail/red flag and realize the lies weren't actually perfect...we just ignored the chinks int he armor.
Author MissBee Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 I know in some As, there is an actual discussion, once someone on here talked about them rehearsing with the MM about what to do if there is a dday etc. I didn't have that dynamic in my A. I think for the most part, I was of the mind that you're the one cheating, you're the one who knew you were committed elsewhere and insisted on wooing me, so you're going to need to plan your lies, omissions etc all by yourself! Because of that dynamic there was very little open discussion with me about how he would lie or go about things. Curious minds still want to know how he pulled certain things off. I was aware that he had to lie about some things, I was aware that he probably omitted telling me things as well, and I think he felt like he had it all under control and I think at some point he truly believed that he could have two live, unconflicted, that never the twain shall meet in drama forever WRONG! But...it was a cute idea initially. I've said on here that the nature of our A did allow for me to feel like it was a normal relationship, more so than some A dynamics. I can see on his part how some things were easy, others may be more difficult. I'm not the BS and I expect that post a dday one can easily replay all the small details that didn't add up...but from the OW side of things, small details sometimes look a bit different. I think for me, and in thinking of this thread, I thought of all the little things that even I as an OW, was like wow....you're slipping up. I remember him telling me once that he really trusted me..and I got upset and made some comment about why?? Because he knew I could ruin his life, but he trusts that I have not and won't??? He got upset in return saying he didn't mean that. In any case, rightly or wrongly, I guess there is an unstated agreement or trust contract when you go into an A. But the small details...I realized he didn't intend for me to see them, as just as much as he was deceiving her to maintain their relationship, he was deceiving me in the form of well-placed omissions, to make me happy and make me feel like I had him 100%. But sometimes he just forgot the small details... 2
UpwardForward Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Yes Ms Bee. The trust factor can be huge. The saying that the wife is the last to know - IMO it's because of trust, and the longer the M, perhaps the greater the trust. While I questioned in my mind, still I believed what he told me.
Author MissBee Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) I think the small details from the side of the BS are different than on the side of the OW/OM. I know some maintain that their MP is 100% truthful with them. However, I think this is unlikely the case for most. I think the kinds of details hidden from the BS differ from the kind hidden from the OW/OM. So the MP may seem forthright about all, well of course, especially since some stuff he can tell you about the BS is irrelevant to the kinds of things he needs to keep from you. I can also remember the fact that I had no idea my exAP was even still in a relationship, until I came across one of his social networking pages. That was when I saw that it stated he was in a relationship. I don't think he tried to hide that but I don't think he wanted me to see that either. I don't think he was ready for my reaction to that...and I continued the relationship, but because of that I think he had to play things more carefully. In his mind, and he said it aloud, he tried to "protect my feelings about the situation". That is, as our relationship continued, he had to downplay her and his life with her so that I could be happy with "us". His omissions and lies were to that end and they weren't perfect at all. Edited July 30, 2012 by MissBee
Author MissBee Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 In terms of the idea that most crimes aren't solved and lots of As go on uncovered: I think that non-discovery doesn't make an A or crime make them perfect. I think that sometimes it is due to human effort, lack thereof, human error, technology errors that make or break a crime and an A. In cold cases, often it takes times, new people coming forward, new technology that renders what one THOUGHT was a perfect crime, solvable. Likewise in an A, maybe it's never discovered to a point OR maybe those who've discovered it never told, even the BS themselves, I do believe it's possible some figure their spouse is cheating..so it's not perfect...but since they saw no concrete evidence they'd rather continue living life as is. With security cameras it's crazy how much of our lives are being videotaped without our will and even awareness. Using the internet, swiping your credit/debit card..all these things track info about you. Just like in crimes, when police reach for this type of info, so too can it be reached for in an A. However, most people don't go to that extent to check that out. Side note, my aunt though did get a hotel security tape sent to her and end up finding out her boyfriend was at a hotel with another woman. I had no idea normal people could request tapes from a hotel...I think she told them some story saying her car was hit and scratched by someone in their parking lot and she wanted the tape to see who did it. But the point is that, there is a lot that can trip you up...and it may never, depending on who you're dealing with...but that doesn't render the crime/A perfect. Perfect to me is that it was hidden so well that absolutely no one can solve it...however if it is a matter of reivestigating with new eyes/new technology then it wasn't perfect, those other people just didn't solve it. Even in my A...I have no idea if a dday occurred. But if one didn't, I'm sure he felt it was perfect. Little does he know that I know her email address, first and last name, FB, I still have all our emails and pics and so on and IF I cared to make that known to her...it could be. Just because I haven't...doesn't render it perfect. As they say, two can keep a secret if one of them is dead.
Author MissBee Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 Your post brought to mind some things, especially the part about small little details and how you know something is off but yet you ignore or reason it away. After I found out the truth, I was able to make sense of some things that had bugged me but I hadn't pushed on before. For instance, I remembered sometimes when we were talking about our past relationship that he'd get a blank look on his face, sort of confused and he'd not have much to say. I excused it, thinking his memory was faulty. lol The reality was he couldn't remember the lies he had told me before. As someone else said, it's difficult to remember lies, and the more there are of them the harder they are to remember. LOL @ faulty memory We all have intuition and truth barometers that work. Some are more keen on listening to their than others are. It's usually not the case that people are perfect liars...they just get lucky that most people ignore that voice saying "Hmmm this doesn't make sense". 9/10 times when it all comes to a head, we can't say "we had NO idea"...usually we can see in hindsight where it didn't make sense. In general, I've tried to be more careful about listening to that voice the first time around. I don't immediately fly off the handle when something seems off, but instead of excusing it away immediately as nothing, I start to listen, look, observe and ASK QUESTIONS more closely. 2
stillwater Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 (edited) I think the small details from the side of the BS are different than on the side of the OW/OM. I know some maintain that their MP is 100% truthful with them. However, I think this is unlikely the case for most. I think the kinds of details hidden from the BS differ from the kind hidden from the OW/OM. So the MP may seem forthright about all, well of course, especially since some stuff he can tell you about the BS is irrelevant to the kinds of things he needs to keep from you. I can also remember the fact that I had no idea my exAP was even still in a relationship, until I came across one of his social networking pages. That was when I saw that it stated he was in a relationship. I don't think he tried to hide that but I don't think he wanted me to see that either. I don't think he was ready for my reaction to that...and I continued the relationship, but because of that I think he had to play things more carefully. In his mind, and he said it aloud, he tried to "protect my feelings about the situation". That is, as our relationship continued, he had to downplay her and his life with her so that I could be happy with "us". His omissions and lies were to that end and they weren't perfect at all. This was exactly my experience as well, especially the bolded. Obviously she had to tell some huge zingers to her H to explain weekends away with me, etc. As far as I know she didn't tell me any major lies like that. But when it came to downplaying their life together, there was omission after omission. For example, a lot of times she'd talk like she was going somewhere by herself ("I'm going here" instead of "we") when in reality they were going together. She said she did it to protect my feelings too. But here's the thing - usually the truth would come out anyway. Sometimes I would ask, other times she'd just tell me a story after the fact and she'd mention that he was there. So in the end, my feelings weren't "protected", and ended up just being hurt more because she lied to me. I would have MUCH preferred that she just told me the truth up-front, I mean it's not like it was a big surprise she'd be doing something with her H. It made me constantly wonder what she was actually doing when I wasn't around, and I think it made me way more jealous than I would have been (and my imagination was often worse than the truth). As a lot of BS's say, it's the dishonesty that hurts the most. eta: it just goes along with the whole conflict-avoidant personality. If she had the strength to admit things that might be painful for others to hear, she probably wouldn't have been in the A to begin with... Edited July 30, 2012 by stillwater 2
Author MissBee Posted July 30, 2012 Author Posted July 30, 2012 This was exactly my experience as well, especially the bolded. Obviously she had to tell some huge zingers to her H to explain weekends away with me, etc. As far as I know she didn't tell me any major lies like that. But when it came to downplaying their life together, there was omission after omission. For example, a lot of times she'd talk like she was going somewhere by herself ("I'm going here" instead of "we") when in reality they were going together. She said she did it to protect my feelings too. But here's the thing - usually the truth would come out anyway. Sometimes I would ask, other times she'd just tell me a story after the fact and she'd mention that he was there. So in the end, my feelings weren't "protected", and ended up just being hurt more because she lied to me. I would have MUCH preferred that she just told me the truth up-front, I mean it's not like it was a big surprise she'd be doing something with her H. It made me constantly wonder what she was actually doing when I wasn't around, and I think it made me way more jealous than I would have been (and my imagination was often worse than the truth). As a lot of BS's say, it's the dishonesty that hurts the most. eta: it just goes along with the whole conflict-avoidant personality. If she had the strength to admit things that might be painful for others to hear, she probably wouldn't have been in the A to begin with... This so reminds me of my exAP He too would make it seem like he was going somewhere alone when they were going together. She worked out of town for a time and he'd go visit her for the weekend, but instead of saying he was doing that he'd simply say "Oh yea this weekend I'm going to Place B". It eventually became an understood code, that going to Place B, wasn't innocuous but what he really meant was "I'll be going to Place B WITH her...so please don't call". Another slip up I just remembered was that my bestfriend lived in the same country with him and she knew about us. She also knew he worked in the IT industry and wanted him to do something for her and he told me I could have her call him to discuss it etc. Well she called him once to do business and he told her that he was currently with his gf going somewhere so could she reschedule. I remember when she told me this I felt sick to my stomach! My bestfriend and I discussed it and she made the comment that he truly compartmentalizes, as it seems when he is with her he is FULLY invested in his role as her man, so much so that when his OW's bestfriend calls, he can't even remember to omit that part, as he's in his other life now, so it's second nature to admit the truth about it! I was very hurt. I knew I was the OW...but when around me and my friends and with me, he did omit omit and omit to "protect me" because he didn't want me to feel like I was second place....yet when he wasn't expecting the call from my friend, while he was in his other life, he had no need to protect and those defenses were turned off. I don't think he intended to say that and probably kicked himself for it later. He also simply didn't think about how my bestfriend would come back and tell me about it either.
2sure Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 I know to some people, especially those that havent walked in my shoes....the lies my husband told me and the things he hid must seem like I was an idiot to believe a word that came from his mouth. And yeah, turned out I was but...on the flip side, and again I AM finding the humor in all of this....Things he told OW which they also bought : He was single. - His Left hand had a definite imprint from his too tight wedding band when he would remove it AND he had a tan line year round on his finger in the shape of...a ring. After listening to recording of him calling OW, he would stumble after Hi this is...because he was using a fake name. It was like: Hi! This is....um, uh BOB! Yes, its me BOB! 2
Spark1111 Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 During my H's cheating period, all of his friends/coworkers were also serial cheaters that bragged about their conquests to each other. When the other wives got suspicious, they followed their H's around until they caught them with the OW.(this was before cell phones and computers- cheaters used pay phones or work phones to communicate) We were the only couple that had children,so even though I was suspicious, I couldn't just up and follow him. All of the other wives filed for divorce, and then they realized I was still in the dark about everything. One of the wives called me with all the info, and my d-day occured. I was so mad that I left and took the kids to live with my parents, fully intending to file for divorce. Before I left, I called his parents, who lived next door, and told them why I was leaving and where we were staying. By now all of his friends/coworkers were divorced, and he got to hear daily moaning/groaning about their new single life and how much money/assets their XW got in the divorce. It took about a month for the reality of just how different his life would be to sink in. He then cried and begged for another chance. I agreed to come back on a trial basis only, as I really didn't think he was capable of long term change. He totally surprised me by his hard work and dedication to me and the kids. He was a changed man that was very grateful to still have a marriage, and he showed it everyday in many ways! It's the old adage that if you lay down with dogs, you wake up with fleas. My H was running with a group very similiar to your H's during his affair. What amazes me is when the AP insists the MAP is not lying to them. Just as I do not know ALL that was said or transpired during the affair, the APs can have no clue what is happening in the marriage, especially after dday. OMG! There was lying and minimizing and lies by omission to both me and her after dday. The only difference was I was in super-sleuth mode, and kept throwing him out of the house. He lied to her; they both lied to me but mostly, he lied to himself. I think because of the extent of delusional thinking, keeping the lies straight becomes very difficult after a while. 1
Spark1111 Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 This was exactly my experience as well, especially the bolded. Obviously she had to tell some huge zingers to her H to explain weekends away with me, etc. As far as I know she didn't tell me any major lies like that. But when it came to downplaying their life together, there was omission after omission. For example, a lot of times she'd talk like she was going somewhere by herself ("I'm going here" instead of "we") when in reality they were going together. She said she did it to protect my feelings too. But here's the thing - usually the truth would come out anyway. Sometimes I would ask, other times she'd just tell me a story after the fact and she'd mention that he was there. So in the end, my feelings weren't "protected", and ended up just being hurt more because she lied to me. I would have MUCH preferred that she just told me the truth up-front, I mean it's not like it was a big surprise she'd be doing something with her H. It made me constantly wonder what she was actually doing when I wasn't around, and I think it made me way more jealous than I would have been (and my imagination was often worse than the truth). As a lot of BS's say, it's the dishonesty that hurts the most. eta: it just goes along with the whole conflict-avoidant personality. If she had the strength to admit things that might be painful for others to hear, she probably wouldn't have been in the A to begin with... Great post! Isn't it interesting how these people get to NOT TELL THE TRUTH TO ANYONE, because they just don't want to hurt anyone's feelings... ....while they leave a wake of emotional destruction wherever they go? 2
stillwater Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Great post! Isn't it interesting how these people get to NOT TELL THE TRUTH TO ANYONE, because they just don't want to hurt anyone's feelings... ....while they leave a wake of emotional destruction wherever they go? The funny thing is, that was never a problem between us when the A started. We told each other absolutely everything, past present and future. Of course back then there was no hurtful stuff because neither of us was really all that emotionally involved at first. I've come to realize that's a big part of why there became so much intimacy between us, there was this incredible openness and no barriers, at least for a while. Losing that best friend was definitely the hardest part as the whole thing came to an end. It was something she complained about her husband, that they didn't have the same intimacy, but she also complained they never had that openness of communication between them. I really think the second is the reason for the first, and she'll never be happy unless she/they somehow change the relationship. Not that it matters at this point, just psychoanalyzing.
2sure Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Yeah so, I told you my ex had a whole second life - talk about complicated. He had everything including an extra car I didnt know about. When the PI told me this and which hotel he was using as his "Im in sales and stay at this hotel when I have to overnight because hey, Ima Single Guy" .... I scoured the house and then his office (which was hard) for car keys and found them. The next time he left for an overnight (which was often due to his job - but a one night thing was something newish)...I drove there with a friend , took the car out of the hotel parking lot & drove it back to our house (2 hrs away) and Parked it in the Drive Way. I never found out what happened when he left the hotel and found his car gone - but for some reason, he never reported it stolen. Thats how scared he was , how stupid - I mean, what if it had been taken for real and used in a drive by shooting? I guess he hadnt gotten that far yet. When he came home he walked in the door - and actually said: Why is John's (his employee) car in the drive? I laughed like the lunatic I was at the time. 4
Furious Posted July 30, 2012 Posted July 30, 2012 Yeah so, I told you my ex had a whole second life - talk about complicated. He had everything including an extra car I didnt know about. When the PI told me this and which hotel he was using as his "Im in sales and stay at this hotel when I have to overnight because hey, Ima Single Guy" .... I scoured the house and then his office (which was hard) for car keys and found them. The next time he left for an overnight (which was often due to his job - but a one night thing was something newish)...I drove there with a friend , took the car out of the hotel parking lot & drove it back to our house (2 hrs away) and Parked it in the Drive Way. I never found out what happened when he left the hotel and found his car gone - but for some reason, he never reported it stolen. Thats how scared he was , how stupid - I mean, what if it had been taken for real and used in a drive by shooting? I guess he hadnt gotten that far yet. When he came home he walked in the door - and actually said: Why is John's (his employee) car in the drive? I laughed like the lunatic I was at the time. LOL....I think I just peed myself.
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