Want wife to finally quit therapy

[TiredFamilyGuy]

I want to know from you people - am I being unreasonable? Am I taking the wrong approach?

 

Background - married 16 years. Two daughters 12 and 14. I work full time, wife recently increased up to 3 days a week (works in mental health). Our Big Issue is that ever since having kids my wife has faultfound me in front of them constantly, and is derogatory in a variety of ways. This continued up till end of last year when I got very angry and confronted her in a persistent way. Since then she plays nice most of the time - but still doesn't talk to me other than about superficial things and still occasionally relapses into excoriating me - always with the kids there. I feel very bad that the kids have grown up in a bickering household - which I had as a kid and loathed. TBH there is a decade of anger and resentment built up there too, which I try to suppress. She has been in twice weekly therapy for a long time.

 

Trigger for this is that on return a family holiday, and after the phone-a-therapist incident described below, she had another blowup. For me, that was it. FYI Her blowup was triggered when a letter to her received that day was propped up on the mantlepiece in the family room instead of next to the front door - sounds kind of odd to describe but this is the kind of thing that sets her off, another time it was because she could not find her mascara. Other than the problems I describe she is a fine, kind, concientious and intelligent person.

 

I wrote what follows to get my thoughts straight. Then I talked with my wife. Then I sent it to my wife, because she remembers things very differently depending on how she feels, so it may help to have a reference point.

 

 

Dear XXXXX

 

I am asking you talk with me about what matters to you and also to finally quit your therapy.

 

I want to to hear about the boring stuff, the painful stuff, the angry stuff - all of it. So long as it is not in front of the kids, all the subjects under the sun and more.

 

Let me explain:

 

You were in therapy before we were married. You are in therapy now. In between, another couple of other therapists. Sixteen years.

 

You never acquired any habit of talking with me about your emotional issues. Or took any opportunity to talk to me alone when you had a problem in the relationship.

 

I have always thought this, and always said it.

 

I can see now how you could never bring yourself to do it. You had a structure for discussing emotional issues already, with which you were familiar from a professional and consumer viewpoint. So why change?

 

Talk with a partner involves being vulnerable. So why risk it?

 

When we were young and in love, this compartmentalisation didn't matter. Later it did, very much.

 

Sometimes you have not been in therapy: I generalise that you have then been more shouty than at other times. This can be read two ways. The first is as proof therapy is needed. That is how you have presented it. The second is that if you talk neither with a therapist or your husband, your nature is such that pressure will build and frustations magnify until an outburst happens. That is how I see it.

 

For me our holiday and together time pretty much ended when we came home early and you took it as an opportunity to pick your therapy up again early.

 

My understanding, is it that I made it very clear I was open to talk about what was on your mind beforehand - you initially said there was nothing to talk to me about. I confess I took this poorly.

 

You then said, I paraphrase, that because you were talking with your therapist about selfishness, this was something I should approve of so it was OK. I did not take that well either - I don't want you just telling me the subject header of your much anticipated reunion with your therapist.

 

I do not take it well that you are processing the important feelings offstage.

 

I do not take it well that you save stuff up for therapy what you won't talk to me about.

 

I do not take it well that you still blow up at me in front of the kids and use as justification, trust issues that you won't approach me alone about at any other time.

 

I have the impression, you have the idea that if you can just finish processing your issues with your therapist, then you will finally be comfortable with acting like a marriage partner to me. But you can't say when that will happen.

 

I think you are giving yourself the same get out you have always given yourself. Because of course, there will be problems. And we will not be able to deal with the consequences together for the simple reason that you have not worked enough of your many issues out with me - but by processing them with a succession of therapists instead. And because you are married to me not the therapists, we will not have the common ground to make it work. That's how it's been so far, is it not?

 

I am claiming the right to have you talk to me. I am claiming the right for you not to talk to a therapist as well because up till now, "as well" has simply meant "instead".

 

You want to carry on with therapy and maybe talk to me as well as a kind of bonus? I predict that attempts to so equivocate would fail, that as before you will find some fault with me and rationalise the not talking to me as being less painful, and so avoidable, and thus avoided. That is how it has worked so far, yes?

 

Should I be patient? I was patient for too long. It did me no good and wasted the time when I could still have had what I wanted - happy time with the kids, and a relationship where you were not holding a mirror up to them that showed me in a distorted and horrid image.

 

I would like to see if our marriage can stand on its own, without a third party. I would like your commitment to working things out with me, not with a third party.

 

You are hesitating - well I am hesitating too, between really trying to give it a final go and giving it up as a lost cause. I have waited and I really would like a response right now.

 

It would help to heal all my own hurt, to be able to recall that I asked you for something that I really wanted, that would do us both good, and that you gave it to me and to us.

 

Alternatively, waiting for the right time in your own opinion, if and when you are satisfied it is not too much of a sacrifice, keeps you in your safety zone and me out here, bitter, alone and waiting.

 

 

-Your husband

[darkmoon]

"the kids have grown up in a bickering household"

 

what is it you say and/or do just in the very moments before the bickering starts?

[TiredFamilyGuy]

That's a good question. What particularly did it, was what I think of as "Acting like a father": which with little kids means getting them get ready, put on shoes for school, get their bags and so on. She would countermand my every request of them until I either gave up or argued. As for me providing parental discipline (like, tidy your room/finish your homework before TV), I had to try that in my own time and against a backwash of dont-listen-to-your-father: it was hard. She now says she was jealous of the children. I give her credit, I think that is true, but I think it was also her wanting control.

 

But also, the trigger could really be anything and anytime (lost mascara!). I was walking on eggshells for years.

[darkmoon]

yeah, two young cute daughters, in a world that values youth, i wonder how a woman can comfortably admit to seeming defective, if you will, i just cant see any other reason for the random gasket-blowing, not all mothers do this, but it goes on....

[Atlantico]

Your wife shows Passive- aggressive (PA) behaviour in my book. Doing it in front of the kids is part of the PA game (google it)

 

Look out for her parents not allowing her to express her emotions and anger as a child, the most usual origin of PA behaviour. These people can not bond, intimacy is very hard for them.

 

Other than that, she is very resentful towards you, for something you did (or not ) in the past.

 

Ask her to let you join her in the therapist appointments.

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Ducksoup - I don't buy that: she has been like that all through since the kids were little. TBH I have wondered if it was an affair. But it just to me feels like general screwedupness.

[TiredFamilyGuy]

bentnotbroken. Thank you - I don't know if there is abuse, she hasn't talked about swathes of her life. But I don't think there is - but Atlantico has it bullseye about emotionally repressed parents: they are very reserved and her father is supremely austere.

 

I do not want to go to therapy AS WELL. For a start I don't want to buy into the "Let's all get therapy - forever!" paradigm that my wife is in. I want to talk with my wife - but not in the hall of mirrors that is perpetual therapy. Also it happens when I am at work. Also, the problem is that she won't talk to me alone, about her life - going to therapy would be I think just pandering to her way of doing things, and I have done that entirely too much.

[Atlantico]

TiredFamilyGuy: Your wife is seeking validation from the therapist for her acts. For one I would think a good therapist would ask for your presence sometime down the line. But yes, therapists like to please their patients at expense of objectivity. That´s a good steady money income for them.

 

Passive aggressive people is known by its dual behavior sweet hearts for those that they choose, and that may even be the ones that mistreat them-- how´s that for confusing behaviour?

 

Most PA people do not accept their predicament. Very hard to treat.

 

My suggestion is for you to get a therapist (why not ?) and tell your wife your therapist wants to see you BOTH. I bet she will pour her soul out in the appointments.

 

PS. sorry for the spelling...

Edited July 25, 2012 by Atlantico

[alexandria35]

I very much agree with bentnotbroken. It seems that your issue with your wife being in therapy is that your wife shares with her therapist things that you would like her to share with you. You want your wife to communicate with you and open up to you. She doesn't know how to do that. Insisting that she quit therapy isn't going to help her do it. She needs to talk to someone and if you take away her only outlet she is going to resent you for it and be even less likely to open up to you then she already is. She doesn't trust you enough to be vulnerable that way to you and taking therapy away from her isn't going to be condusive to gaining her trust.

 

Nobody is saying everyone should go therapy forever and ever, however a good couples therapist would be the first step in opening up the lines of communication between you and your wife. Your wife likely finds the therapist office comforting and safe and if you were there with her she might be able to make her first move towards opening up to you. A good therapist will know how to encourage and support this. Once she begins to learn that you are not her adversary and that she can trust you with her deepest feelings and thoughts you will likely see her opening up more to you at home and outside of therapy.

 

You seem to feel that if you simply take her therapy away from her, she will magically and eagerly come running to you with all of her feelings. That's not gonna happen. Instead it will only cement in her mind that you don't understand and that she can't trust you.

 

Has she ever told you why she goes to therapy? Has she ever been diagnosed with any mental illness or personality disorder? or do you know? I'm asking because your wife might really need to be in therapy regardless of weather she opens up to you or not. Being a spouse and being a therapist are not the same thing. Sometimes people do have mental issues that require ongoing therapy and you might just have to accept that. I mean if your wife had a physical condition that required ongoing medical attention, say arthritis or migraine headaches, you wouldn't insist that she let you treat her illness instead of a qualified medical doctor right?

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Alexandria

 

I sincerely thank you for your thought and advice.

 

You seem to feel that if you simply take her therapy away from her, she will magically and eagerly come running to you with all of her feelings. That's not gonna happen. Instead it will only cement in her mind that you don't understand and that she can't trust you.

 

That is a risk that I am willing to take, out of desperation. My goal is not "My wife to stop therapy". My goal is mainly for my wife to stop Doing It In Front Of the Kids, to use Atlantico's phrase.

 

The therapy predated marriage. So look, I really do have grounds to think she never really committed to talking her issues over within the relationship.

 

When the kids were younger, I felt I could do nothing about the blowups because fighting back would mean exposing them to the emotional violence I felt around me as a child. Now they are older, they have seen it all too many times and I have toughened up, so I'm not inclined to back down even with kids there. But, that sucks too, by now I have plenty repressed anger of my own and then it usually becomes me arguing hotly over trivia as well as her.

 

A bit more background: My wife has a mixed and turbulent relationship with her mother, alternately saying that she hates her/never wants to see her again/feels responsible for her, and says she spent her childhood being repressed/dutiful/ignored/invisible. She is the second youngest of four & I do feel it relevant that none of her siblings ever married/cohabit/have children: all fine people but very controlled and repressed. Her parents did not argue in front of the children ever. We have talked about these feelings sometimes, it seems to go around in circles for her. Like many middle children - I am one myself - she can be an excellent mediator. So it's not that she never talks about stuff with me - but only sometimes, after a fight, and with me insisting. There is also other stuff - religious background / PMT / political affiliations - that are IMHO pretty much noise to the issue at hand.

 

I think, if my wife can't learn to talk to me without therapy or raise normal marital issues / domestic logistics without belittling me in front of the kids (and it really is like that, very angry and deprecating) - then let us learn that fact so that I can decide to leave, or stay but not bust a gut trying any more.

 

As the status quo is blowups plus therapy, and I can't manage to prevent the blowups, my remaining route involves therapy. I confess I now see it as part of the problem not the solution. I frankly admit that at this late stage I resent the lost intimacy that seems to be happening offstage, the cost to our family time (speeding to therapy straight from holiday!), the financial cost too. But I feel I have been more than patient, more than fair - and that didn't work for me.

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Alexandria - I got sidetracked there. I should answer your questions.

 

Has she ever been diagnosed with any mental illness or personality disorder? or do you know?

Depression - she took tablets for a few years. This overlapped with Post-Natal Depression.

 

Has she ever told you why she goes to therapy?

Really good question. Not recently: I have fallen into an assumption - which I think is still pretty likely - that the huge bundle of known issues about mother/ childhood/ depression were the reason.

 

I mean if your wife had a physical condition that required ongoing medical attention, say arthritis or migraine headaches, you wouldn't insist that she let you treat her illness instead of a qualified medical doctor right? OK - Therapy can be useful, I grant you. But grant me that not all therapy is useful just because it is there: Therapy can become a perpetual displacement for getting one's act together in the real world. That's what I see here. So I think it has outlived it's time in our marriage.

 

If my wife judges otherwise, she can make that choice and I can make mine, but I am prepared now to insist that therapy is an alternative, not an "as well as".

[alexandria35]

Alexandria - I got sidetracked there. I should answer your questions.

 

Has she ever been diagnosed with any mental illness or personality disorder? or do you know?

Depression - she took tablets for a few years. This overlapped with Post-Natal Depression.

 

Has she ever told you why she goes to therapy?

Really good question. Not recently: I have fallen into an assumption - which I think is still pretty likely - that the huge bundle of known issues about mother/ childhood/ depression were the reason.

 

I mean if your wife had a physical condition that required ongoing medical attention, say arthritis or migraine headaches, you wouldn't insist that she let you treat her illness instead of a qualified medical doctor right? OK - Therapy can be useful, I grant you. But grant me that not all therapy is useful just because it is there: Therapy can become a perpetual displacement for getting one's act together in the real world. That's what I see here. So I think it has outlived it's time in our marriage.

 

If my wife judges otherwise, she can make that choice and I can make mine, but I am prepared now to insist that therapy is an alternative, not an "as well as".

 

TFG I absolutely agree with the bolded above 100%. By the way you have described the situation it doesn't sound like therapy is helping your wife very much. Talking things out with someone is great but it should lead to one taking action and making changes, otherwise what is the point? It almost sounds like your wifes therapist is actually enabling her to stay right where she is. Has your wife always had the same therapist or has she tried different ones?

 

I do agree with you that at this point it sounds like the therapy she is getting is of no use to anyone, not even her. However it also sounds like she does have real issues that perhaps do require competent professional attention. Big blowups over where the mail is left or losing ones mascara is not normal behavior and it's not healthy for the other people in the household. Belittling you, especially in front of your children, is also very unhealthy behavior. You seem to blame this behavior on her being in therapy, I tend to think she needs better therapy.

 

So while I see your side and your points are very valid, I think your plan to eliminate her therapy all together is going to back fire on you in a big way. I fully believe that your wife is going to get worse and she is going to distance herself from you even more. I still think that if you were to commit to going to therapy with your wife, not endlessly but for a set amount of time, say 3-6 months, that this might impact your wife in a very positive way. She knows you hate her therapy, so it would probably mean a lot to her to see you willing to give it a try with her. It would let her know that you really do want to know her and see inside of her. Why not give it a try? If it doesn't work it doesn't work but at least you gave it a go and who knows, maybe it would even help you with some of that repressed anger you that you keep mentioning that you have bottled up.

[evryrozhasitsthorn]

I'm there with you dude. My wife hasn't had quite as much therapy yours has, but I've been in therapy with her on top of having my own. My therapy is basically helping me understand her possible mental illnesses. Hers is supposed to be turning her back toward me (after an affair) and fixing her many issues. Maybe her counselor has made some progress on her issues, but hasn't done jack for her being loving toward me. I think the counselor we see together is a bust, and I'm about to quit that. There is nothing left for me to discuss with my IC so I'm ready to dump that too. I think most counselors are greedy bastards who know they can't help most people, but they keep scheduling you week after week. 16 years of marriage, 3 kids, 3 years of counseling and thousands of dollars later....equals nothing but a f****d up life. And like someone said already.....kids who are screwed up for life! I'm jealous of all the guys who figure out their wife is whacked before they have kids and can just walk away with no strings.

[TiredFamilyGuy]

So I told my wife what I wanted from her - essentially saying all the same stuff in the original post. She could see I was serious, it was not confrontational, I asked her to think about it. Last thing that evening she came to me, angry and resentful, saying I would regret making her choose, it was a big mistake. I just listened.

 

First thing the next morning it is, to use a cliche, sweetness and light:- she says she wants to give it a go, it will be just like courtship, she sees my point of view, so .... she has put her therapy on hold for six weeks. Ah, major letdown. At this point there was a hard decision to make - she wanted me to play along with the happy bubble. I say no, that this is just hedging her bets, I want a genuine chance with her not finding reasons to fail/counting off the time until therapy can resume, she can have all the therapy she wants if the marriage breaks down.

 

She tries to talk me around but in the end says OK, she does not intend to go back in six weeks. But later asks if she can see the therapist to explain, as he mailed her asking what was going on and she wants to put some closure there. As I stuck to my guns earlier, I thought it was time to exhibit the spirit of compromise and said OK. Also I am feeling, the guy is probably genuinely professional and wanting his patient to come to no harm.

 

So that is where she is right now - seeing her therapist. I don't know if she will come back ready to give us a try, or come back with some Master Plan which just incidentally happens to involve therapy in which case we are back in the crap. At least I won't be on the fence waiting for something nice to happen anymore.

[Atlantico]

Just a question if you don't mind?

 

For how long has your wife seeing the current therapist?

[alexandria35]

This is really starting to sound fishy. I assumed that her therapist was a female. I hear bells.

 

You think she is having an affair with her therapist? I doubt it. I mean I know it happens but why jump to that conclusion? I suppose it's possible that she has some misplaced feelings for him. I've read that its' quite common for a patient to view their therapist as some sort of all knowing hero/life saver and develop a crush on him/her.

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Wife agreed to quit therapy and commit to us. It's a wobbly decision - she has twice attempted to argue me around to letting her carry on. I said why that would not work for me. She agreed to stop. As things stand she wants to see thetherapist one more time to say goodbye. I have again agreed.

 

I don't know whether I am being harsh or a sap.

 

Probably both - if I had not had so much abuse over the years, I would not be putting my foot down now. Will let you know how it goes...

[SincereOnlineGuy]

No husband who really is all of the positive things you claim to be and represent would have gone this long not even knowing (or caring) whyyyyyyyyyyyy his wife has been in therapy for all these years.

 

Worse yet is your possessing any notion that she should quit therapy without your even having bothered to understand why she goes to a therapist.

 

 

Although, if indeed she is in therapy for reasons related to family environs she knew long ago, it is highly probable that she merely replicated those environs in her marriage. Hence the need for continued therapy.

[2sunny]

Wife agreed to quit therapy and commit to us. It's a wobbly decision - she has twice attempted to argue me around to letting her carry on. I said why that would not work for me. She agreed to stop. As things stand she wants to see thetherapist one more time to say goodbye. I have again agreed.

 

I don't know whether I am being harsh or a sap.

 

Probably both - if I had not had so much abuse over the years, I would not be putting my foot down now. Will let you know how it goes...

 

She's treating her therapist like her OM.

 

She already had the chance to tell him she's not going anymore! Don't give the ok to keep going back to end it - that's a joke! Most patients simply call to state it or leave a message! There's an unhealthy tie to this therapist if she keeps rushing to see him when she says she won't go anymore.

 

A good therapist WORKS through the issues so that the therapy has a short term goal = to grow and get to a healthy place. Your wife is probably LYING while she's here. Why hasn't the therapist brought you in or suggested MC? Most therapy should end after the patient learns how to change! It shouldn't ever take 16 years! More like one or two!

 

A marriage without healthy communication isn't really a marriage.

 

Your wife doesn't RESPECT YOU AT ALL!!! Why are you staying when she disregards and disrespects you in such a profound way?

 

On a side note - my gut says she's cheating... Looks like its her therapist! If it is - he should be reported - that's against the law.

Edited July 30, 2012 by 2sunny

[Atlantico]

TiredFamilyGuy: looks like you are in denial

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Here's what happened.

 

My wife waited until the next scheduled therapy session to quit therapy. Kind of like having "one last smoke" it seemed to me, but ...she came home and reported that therapist had already booked in someone else for that slot so she just said an awkward brief goodbye on the doorstep. So, job done.

 

I had been fully braced for a confrontation and bust up. Instead ... not. We just went out with the kids to meet another family on holiday here from abroad, which event I mention for its potential to have been supremely awkward, as they are more than friends: he was her ex-bf, I was his best man, he introduced us 20 years ago. But wife was fine, no snippiness or "side" to her all day. She even apologised for giving me cause to be wary of that in the past. It could have been a painful meeting, but was instead a relaxed event to see old friends. They also have two beautiful daughters, seven years younger than my two, and seem a well balanced family. Had I turned up with a resentful / have-it-her-way spouse, it would have been just a reminder of wasted years and a sign to call it quits myself.

 

Instead I feel we have a good chance. Still need my wife to actually initiate conversations about issues, but one step at a time.

 

Looking back over my married life and what I have written about it here, it was not looking good, I can see there were red flags aplenty. Some of you will think "the sap is deluding himself". I admit, I could be mistaken about my wife: other threads on this board are not exactly reassuring about human nature - plenty of human frailty and hurt there. But I'm giving it a chance and again really thank you for taking the trouble to read and comment. I hope things work out OK for you guys.... and I *really* hope I will not be posting again with an agonizing reappraisal.

[2sunny]

Nothing has yet changed man!

 

Until she directly starts communicating with YOU - it really remains the same as its always been.

 

What steps are being taken to open up the communication with you two?

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Update: going well. Wife talking now - something she never did. We talked over why she was so angry all the time. Answers seem to be about her childhood siblings and mother, jealousy of the children and wanting control. No new huge biggies like infidelity - which I had wondered about when casting around for reasons for all the faultfinding. Instead just stuck in loops over feelings of self worth and anger. We are OK together now with the kids, which is what I always wanted. I do think how dumb it was to waste all that time on silence and bickering and wish I had possessed the clarity of mind to confront the problem sooner.

 

Sex much better, freer, and frequent. So one might expect.

 

Of course I might still get a bombshell dropped on my head ( how I think of it is that the sealed crate is now tipped open, but that a big boulder may still fall out ). But things going well so far.

 

I am very grateful to the commenters above. To answer the queries the recent therapist was about 2 years.

[TiredFamilyGuy]

Also - should mention that in search of insight I have read the last 5 years of postings on this board. Wow - so many problems humans make for each other. Again and again the same problems each time with a painful twist.

 

Greznog and DuckSoup - I can see that many times you have called a spade a spade ( or rather, ahem, a hoe!) and although I am thinking it's not that way with my wife, my conciousness has certainly been raised about red flags. I am not going to ignore fishy behaviour now, I owe that to you. Thanks guys.

 

The likes of norajane and bentnotbroken have helped many people - thanks for helping me.

[Radu]

Her therapist sounded like a paid friend if nothing else.

Quite a scammer too.

 

Now she is turning to you for that role, that's why you don't get drama, therapist was her paid valve/agony aunt.