What gives Christianity a bad name...

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think that in any disagreement, things don't go well when one "side" continually says, with all sincerity, "I'm right and you're wrong, and that's final." Because Christians … happen to believe that they absolutely have the corner on the market of what's "right" and "wrong," discussions with many of them can come to a frustrating end.

 

After all, the "final word" is God's word, and many Christians believe that they understand that word impeccably and that there is nothing to discuss where it's concerned.

 

And this helps to give Christianity a bad name.

[fortyninethousand322]

This is what I mean about Christians believing that might makes right, and that we have absolutely no rights whatsoever. It's an appalling idea, rightly shunned, but at the very core of Christianity.

 

Let's be fair here, the poster you're referencing here is not exactly reflective of mainstream anything. There are lots of Christians (including myself) who would dispute the idea that it's "at the very core of Christianity".

[TheFinalWord]

This is what I mean about Christians believing that might makes right, and that we have absolutely no rights whatsoever. It's an appalling idea, rightly shunned, but at the very core of Christianity.

 

I don't know about the specific context of that thread. I can't speak for KathyM, but that method of dialogue is pretty much repeated in every one of these threads so I'll speak to it. In a lot of these threads what I find frustrating is an atheist will quote a bible verse completely out of context, and then demand Christians respond to it (straw man) and then when we attempt to demonstrate the context they will claim "the bible doesn't count as evidence".

 

The thing is, they start with the bible, then when we respond Biblically they cry foul? That's why these discussions always take a turn for the worse. So I think a lot of believers just use the same logic right back. I think it frustrates atheists just as much as the former frustrates Christians.

 

I mean I could claim the same thing when a atheist claims we want to kill all homosexuals and creates impossible rules to provide an adequate response. "you're taking away my rights". Obviously, Christians don't believe that. Yet instead of saying "if this verse says that, but Christians don't do it, maybe there is a legit explanation?" But no, that little bit of empathy isn't given, instead it's instant accusations, you're dodging, etc.

 

So I think that claim can work both ways.

 

Until we can all agree that the majority of atheists and Christians have philosophies deeper than one-lines no one will get anywhere. I can pick and choose atheist philosophies and make sweeping generalizations too. There is a new stream of atheism that vehemently supports anti-natalism (the idea that humans should stop procreating). I could come on here and accuse all atheists of that and those that don't agree are dancing and dogging and taking away my reproductive rights. Not fair though. This is where respect has to come into the equation or we'll just keep talking past one another.

 

Hopefully this method of dialogue will change someday, but it all starts with respect.

Edited August 6, 2012 by TheFinalWord

[BetheButterfly]

Yes, Jesus definitely did rub shoulders with some supposed scum bags and low lifes, but I can't help but be a little cynical when I see that they were very wealth scum bags and low lifes who also happened to have similar beliefs to him. I would have been more impressed if he'd hung out with Baal worshippers or people from other religions.

 

That's an interesting thought. I think though it needs to be taken into consideration that Jesus was born in Israel, in Bethlehem, and basically for the most part "hung out" with his people, the Jewish people. Most Jewish people in that time period in Israel were not Baal worshipers but were experiencing being conquered by the Romans who were what they considered idol worshipers. However, it is interesting that Jesus praises the faith of a centurion and said that he had not seen such great faith in all Israel, which is really amazing. So, even though he didn't hang out with the Romans really, he did praise this specific man's faith.

 

Matthew 8

Matthew 8 TNIV - Jesus Heals a Man With Leprosy - When - Bible Gateway

 

"5 When Jesus had entered Capernaum, a centurion came to him, asking for help. 6 “Lord,” he said, “my servant lies at home paralyzed, suffering terribly.” 7 Jesus said to him, “Shall I come and heal him?”

8 The centurion replied, “Lord, I do not deserve to have you come under my roof. But just say the word, and my servant will be healed. 9 For I myself am a man under authority, with soldiers under me. I tell this one, ‘Go,’ and he goes; and that one, ‘Come,’ and he comes. I say to my servant, ‘Do this,’ and he does it.”

10 When Jesus heard this, he was amazed and said to those following him, “Truly I tell you, I have not found anyone in Israel with such great faith. 11 I say to you that many will come from the east and the west, and will take their places at the feast with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven. 12 But the subjects of the kingdom will be thrown outside, into the darkness, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.”

13 Then Jesus said to the centurion, “Go! Let it be done just as you believed it would.” And his servant was healed at that very hour."

[BetheButterfly]

I think that in any disagreement, things don't go well when one "side" continually says, with all sincerity, "I'm right and you're wrong, and that's final." Because Christians … happen to believe that they absolutely have the corner on the market of what's "right" and "wrong," discussions with many of them can come to a frustrating end.

 

After all, the "final word" is God's word, and many Christians believe that they understand that word impeccably and that there is nothing to discuss where it's concerned.

 

And this helps to give Christianity a bad name.

 

Understood. Good points

[KathyM]

I think that in any disagreement, things don't go well when one "side" continually says, with all sincerity, "I'm right and you're wrong, and that's final." Because Christians … happen to believe that they absolutely have the corner on the market of what's "right" and "wrong," discussions with many of them can come to a frustrating end.

 

After all, the "final word" is God's word, and many Christians believe that they understand that word impeccably and that there is nothing to discuss where it's concerned.

 

And this helps to give Christianity a bad name.

It's true, that Christians believe in what the Bible states, and believe it to be true. They believe it to be the inspired word of God. They would not be Christians if they did not believe this. Why is this so hard to understand for people, that in order to be Christians, we believe in God's teachings. I don't know of any Christian, however, that believes he knows everything about Christian doctrine or beliefs. It is a learning process, and even the most studious Biblical scholars who have studied the Bible and God's teachings for years still have more to learn and understand about it. Although I have studied it for many years and have had Bible studies with various Bible scholars and Christian leaders, I am still in the learning process, and I will never know everything in the Bible. A lot of it is subject to interpretation, and there is a range of interpretations on several points. Some points, however, are pretty clear. I don't believe there is a Christian that thinks he knows everything about the Bible and everything about God's word and the will of God. I have never met such a Christian, that's for sure, and I have met many who were well studied on the Bible and Christian teachings.

[todreaminblue]

Actually you cant debate outside of the bible. All of your reasoning and opinions are already given to you by the bible. No matter what I say even if its not bible related any answer you give will be from something in the bible. As far as evidence you are the one who has none at all. All of what you believe is out of faith, and faith is not evidence at all.

 

You know i am scared to get involved in this debate as a person who doesnt know the bible back to front.I want to say I mean no disrespect to anyone or their beliefs. I have found mine after a very long time, I don't know if I will be accepted I need to speak to someone who can tell me that and I have organised to do so.I do know tht I have found verses in the bible when I have needed help, that no other book has provided a sense of comfort of peace and serenity.I can't quote you any as I haven't been reading a lot of the bible lately.I can tell you this I know I have never been lower since I stopped reading it and more alone and confused and heartbroken and mentally fragile.

 

 

To me the bible is the word.Not just one word but many words with the same eternal promise and that is Have hope.There is hope in the bible when I stop reading and feel not good enough to join in church, I feel hope less I have separated the word hope less.Because hope and less shouldn't be together in my mind it is disheartening when they are.I am not a bible scholar just someone who believes in the strength of the words within the bible to heal and to give purpose and strength to endure all life has to throw at you which for some is more than they are able to handle by themselves.I also believe in my church because I have seen good things and felt at peace when I am there.I respect anybody who doesn't believe in the bible or church or Christianity or in the strength of hope in words.

 

I just wanted to share an uneducated view point that comes from the very core of me. May every single soul have hope because hope is eternal and so is The Word....thanks for reading my view.....deb

[TheFinalWord]

I don't speak for other atheists. You will have to take that up with YellowShark, BlackGetsuga and others who have been doing that sort of thing.

 

If that were quoted in an atheist holy book somewhere, you might be able to make that comparison.

 

Hey quickjoe,

 

Sure, I apologize if that wasn't fair. One of the reasons I like dialoguing with you is that you don't do that sort of thing. You're a much fairer guy.

 

You know i am scared to get involved in this debate as a person who doesnt know the bible back to front.I want to say I mean no disrespect to anyone or their beliefs. I have found mine after a very long time, I don't know if I will be accepted I need to speak to someone who can tell me that and I have organised to do so.I do know tht I have found verses in the bible when I have needed help, that no other book has provided a sense of comfort of peace and serenity.I can't quote you any as I haven't been reading a lot of the bible lately.I can tell you this I know I have never been lower since I stopped reading it and more alone and confused and heartbroken and mentally fragile.

 

To me the bible is the word.Not just one word but many words with the same eternal promise and that is Have hope.There is hope in the bible when I stop reading and feel not good enough to join in church, I feel hope less I have separated the word hope less.Because hope and less shouldn't be together in my mind it is disheartening when they are.I am not a bible scholar just someone who believes in the strength of the words within the bible to heal and to give purpose and strength to endure all life has to throw at you which for some is more than they are able to handle by themselves.I also believe in my church because I have seen good things and felt at peace when I am there.I respect anybody who doesn't believe in the bible or church or Christianity or in the strength of hope in words.

 

I just wanted to share an uneducated view point that comes from the very core of me. May every single soul have hope because hope is eternal and so is The Word....thanks for reading my view.....deb

 

It's okay todreaminblue You don't have to be an expert on the bible to witness. I'm not. I have no seminary training or theological training but still share the best I can. My mom does not know a lot about theology either, but let me tell you she literally changes lives where ever she goes. She is the nicest person and does so much for other people. Actions speak louder than words and different Christians have different gifts. Thanks for sharing your testimony.

 

 

What gives Christianity a bad name?

 

Well having thought about this a bit today I would say that, ironically, the answer is in the title of this thread: The name of Christ is what gives Christianity a bad name.

 

There is something about the name Jesus that invokes controversy. If you go to any public square, you can mention any other religious icon and no one minds at all. Mention "Jesus" and you can cut the tension with a knife.

 

Now people might say, "well that's b/c in America Christians control the political system and their opinions affect my life". Sure, I'm not denying that is a legitimate political discourse. But if you look at the entire history of Christianity I think it's pretty easy to see it's deeper than that. Not to mention in countries like China and Egypt, where Christians face extreme persecution and have no political power.

 

Let's just look at Christ Himself and a few of the apostles.

 

Christ was tortured, spit on, and crucified for giving His testimony. He didn't use his power to control the political system; the rulers could not find any accusation worthy of death, yet He was killed for His claims. Before He died He told his disciples to expect the same treatment.

 

After He died, the apostles found just that. They were beaten, imprisoned, and several of them killed for preaching Christ.

 

"The apostles were brought in and made to appear before the Sanhedrin to be questioned by the high priest. “We gave you strict orders not to teach in this name,” he said. “Yet you have filled Jerusalem with your teaching and are determined to make us guilty of this man’s blood.” Peter and the other apostles replied: “We must obey God rather than human beings! The God of our ancestors raised Jesus from the dead —whom you killed by hanging him on a cross. God exalted him to his own right hand as Prince and Savior that he might bring Israel to repentance and forgive their sins. We are witnesses of these things, and so is the Holy Spirit, whom God has given to those who obey him.”

They called the apostles in and had them flogged. Then they ordered them not to speak in the name of Jesus, and let them go.

The apostles left the Sanhedrin, rejoicing because they had been counted worthy of suffering disgrace for the Name."

 

 

Paul, who was probably the most influential apostle (he wouldn't want us giving him that title) gives testimony to some of the persecution he endured for preaching Christ.

 

"Five times I received from the Jews the forty lashes minus one. Three times I was beaten with rods, once I was pelted with stones, three times I was shipwrecked, I spent a night and a day in the open sea, I have been constantly on the move. I have been in danger from rivers, in danger from bandits, in danger from my fellow Jews, in danger from Gentiles; in danger in the city, in danger in the country, in danger at sea; and in danger from false believers. I have labored and toiled and have often gone without sleep; I have known hunger and thirst and have often gone without food; I have been cold and naked. Besides everything else, I face daily the pressure of my concern for all the churches. Who is weak, and I do not feel weak? Who is led into sin, and I do not inwardly burn?"

 

Going on, early Christians suffered extreme persecution under Nero, who would use Christians to lite his gardens at night; as laid out by the Roman historian Tacitus.

 

"Neither human resources, nor imperial generosity, nor appeasement of the gods, eliminated the sinister suspicion that the fire had been deliberately started. To stop the rumor, Nero, made scapegoats--and punished with every refinement the notoriously depraved Christians (as they were popularly called). Their originator, Christ, had been executed in Tiberius' reign by the Procurator of Judaea, Pontius Pilatus (who was actually a Praefectus, not a Procurator). But in spite of this temporary setback, the deadly superstition had broken out again, not just in Judaea (where the mischief had started) but even in Rome. All degraded and shameful practices collect and flourish in the capital. First, Nero had the self-admitted Christians arrested. Then, on their information, large numbers of others were condemned--not so much for starting fires as because of their hatred for the human race. Their deaths were made amusing. Dressed in wild animals' skins, they were torn to pieces by dogs, or crucified, or made into torches to be seton fire after dark as illumination.... Despite their guilt as Christians, and the ruthless punishment it deserved, the victims were pitied. For it was felt that they were being sacrificed to one man's brutality rather than to the national interest."

 

 

So from my perspective, yes, some Christians are intolerant and mean. Some are charlatans and false. We see that all the way back in the book of Acts. Paul was actually betrayed by false believers on several occasions. Certainly, Christians are human just like anyone else and can lose their cool when their beliefs are questioned.

 

But there is also a spiritual component to it. Christ said that He is only the way the truth and the life and no one comes to the Father but by Him. That inherently causes division. But just like the disciples we each individually have to decide what our answer will be to the question Jesus posed to his disciples:

 

 

When Jesus came to the region of Caesarea Philippi, he asked his disciples, “Who do people say the Son of Man is?” They replied, “Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, Jeremiah or one of the prophets.”

“But what about you?” he asked. “Who do you say I am?”

 

That question has been asked for centuries and is still relevant today. As Peter said, "Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to mankind by which we must be saved.”

 

 

 

Peace <><

[TheFinalWord]

I dare you to test out that theory with Mohammad.

 

And what happened when the shoe was on the other foot? Did Christianity spread throughout Europe by the sword, or by happy-joy-joy feelings?

 

I think you will find that persecution is an inherent component of Abrahamic religions (and to a lesser extent others as well), and it doesn't matter which one. So I don't think there's any reason to think Christianity is singled out in any way beyond what is merely a reflection of its own attitude towards the rest of the world. The same goes for Islam, right now. The bad elements have created a bad name for the other 99.99% of Muslims who just want to get on with their own lives just like you and me.

 

Touche on Mohammand, though I do think there is a difference when the two are discussed. At least politically. Just see Draw Muhammad Day But I've stepped on enough PC toes for one day. ha

 

Oh, definitely a lot of the spread of Christianity was barbaric. Heck, William Tyndale who gave us the English version of the bible from Latin was burned at the steak for heresy.

[KathyM]

Those who did the shooting may be athiests who have a hatred for theists, but it was wrong for Pat Robertson to lump all athiests into this crime. That was irresponsible and unfortunate that he said that. Same thing with people who blame all Muslims for 9/11. People should only be held accountable for their own actions.

[mercy]

I'd like to think that most Christians regard almost everything Pat Robertson ever said as "irresponsible and unfortunate". In the meantime, as long as people listen to what he says I shall continue to be a misanthropist.

 

He just hasn't learned the beauty of the line below in bold -

 

But he's still breathing, so, there's hope.

 

Ecclesiastes 3

7 A time to rend, and a time to sew; a time to keep silence, and a time to speak;

[soccerrprp]

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so not like your Christ." -Ghandi

 

That is what gives Christianity a bad name...

[M30USA]

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so not like your Christ." -Ghandi

 

That is what gives Christianity a bad name...

 

Greatest post yet. This thread should now be closed because you can't say it any better. Christians and non-Christians alike should agree on this.

[Taramere]

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so not like your Christ." -Ghandi

 

Ghandi spaketh like a character from a teen drama? That's so not like Ghandi.

[TheFinalWord]

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. They are so not like your Christ." -Ghandi

 

That is what gives Christianity a bad name...

 

I admire Ghandi, and I have heard this line used before. But can anyone confirm if Ghandi actually said this?

 

I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians - snopes.com

[soccerrprp]

TFW,

 

I've wondered about the overall authenticity as well. Though it has not been entirely dismissed to be attributed to Ghandi, I should have left his name out and simply placed the quote, however dubious to its origins. The quote itself says it all... not a unique idea, of course, but seems to make more of an impact when it's believed that Ghandi said it.

 

Oh, and Ghandi was no saint mind you. We always hear about his non-violent movement against British rule, but he was no saint...

[TheFinalWord]

TFW,

 

I've wondered about the overall authenticity as well. Though it has not been entirely dismissed to be attributed to Ghandi, I should have left his name out and simply placed the quote, however dubious to its origins. The quote itself says it all... not a unique idea, of course, but seems to make more of an impact when it's believed that Ghandi said it.

 

Oh, and Ghandi was no saint mind you. We always hear about his non-violent movement against British rule, but he was no saint...

 

Thanks for the update! Yeah, I think it's a good quote, but I wasn't sure if he actually said it or not.

 

Love the movie of Ghandi

 

Gandhi full movie (1982) 480p - YouTube

 

Ben Kingsley has a knack for playing these heoric figures...he also played Moses and did a stellar job IHMO

 

Moses *Full Movie* - YouTube

 

He also played Potiphar from the Joseph story

 

Joseph *Full Movie* - YouTube