What gives Christianity a bad name...

[Zaphod B]

Duplicates. Sorry. Having connection issues.

Edited July 26, 2012 by Zaphod B

[M30USA]

those people also burned and hanged other christians who they didn't like.

 

You've been overinfluenced by the perception of school history classes. Yes, the Salem Witch Trials (and similar things) have occured in history but people love making it seem like it was the norm for a group of people.

 

early colonialists were not the founders of the USA, btw. if anything they were more quaker than puritan, quakers believing in a strict separation of church and state.

 

I mentioned the FOUNDING FATHERS as well. By the way, did you know this:

 

19 signers of the Decl. of Independence went to Seminary. Among these, 4 exclusively studies theology.

[Forever Silent]

Ideally, there would be no states. Government is an unnecessary evil. Long ago, I used to think like you: small government, more power to the 50 individual states. But I realized (after some convincing by my wife) that there's no difference between one tyrant 3,000 miles away and 3,000 tyrants one mile away.

 

A governement by the people is no tryanny. The closer the government is to you, the more you can be involved. What you have now may resemble a tryanny, but is only because the people we have elected have distanced themselves from the common man, hence why I have always advocated for the decentralization of power and the restoration of powers to the states, cities, and communities. However, that is another issue.

 

When I mentioned gay marriage, I was not trying to politicize the topic, I was merely giving a solution that would mitigate the hostilty that emanates from the dicussion about marriage. The same would go for any other issue that draws controversy.

[thatone]

You've been overinfluenced by the perception of school history classes. Yes, the Salem Witch Trials (and similar things) have occured in history but people love making it seem like it was the norm for a group of people.

 

 

 

I mentioned the FOUNDING FATHERS as well. By the way, did you know this:

 

19 signers of the Decl. of Independence went to Seminary. Among these, 4 exclusively studies theology.

 

no, you missed the point. puritans were the original colonists yes but quakers came later and they very specifically DID NOT LIKE each other, one side called the other heretics. by virtue of having the king's charter for the first territory the puritans had legal control and they went to the extent of arresting and executing quakers for coming to town to buy supplies.

 

said puritans burned their bridge with the royal government back home by harboring a couple of judges that condemned and executed charles 1, so when charles 2 came to the throne he didn't care for them all that much for obvious reasons. he ordered them to stop killing quakers or deal with the royal army coming over to restore order. they backed down.

 

so the fact is the people who wrote the law you quoted had to have a threat of violence to stop them from killing other christians.

 

and no, i've been influenced by the facts of history. you haven't been influenced enough by them.

[M30USA]

Thatone,

 

All I intended to show is that many (possibly the majority) of original founders of our country not only were Christian but encouraged the expression of faith in the public square. Read Lincoln's famous letter to a church where he clearly stated the separation of church and state was intended to keep the the state out of the church, NOT the church our of the state.

 

(Your point about the bad actions of Puritans may or may not be true but isn't the topic of what I was discussing.)

[Tulsy]

Tulsy,

 

So you have your own views and they're not religious. But you have your own views and you express them in public and don't keep them hidden in a closet. If you were in office, you would use these very views to enforce policy. Stop expecting Christians not to do the same. Otherwise you are censoring thought and prohibiting diversity.

 

(Not expecting any "likes".)

 

Correct, I have views of my own...everyone does.

Correct, I feel fine expressing myself publicly. I feel discussion and debate are a necessity in order for people to thoroughly express themselves. One or two sentences often isn't enough.

 

The part about being in office...I'm not sure why this was directed at me, but okay, lets discuss. If I was in office, I can't really say for sure what I would do...it's a hypothetical question I would need more time to ponder (maybe another, separate thread?). However, I would not let my religious persuasion be my blanket for enforcement of policies. I would not come down hard on religious groups simply because I do not agree with them. Instead, I would expect equality from them...certainly they should all pay taxes.

 

Honestly, equality would be my main concern when it comes to any special interest groups. For example, in Canada they have Public and Catholic school systems, and both are funded by the public. One conservative wanted to have a separate board for each religious group, in his attempt to be "fair" and win votes. I would go the other route, and suggest ONLY one public system...as far as I'm concerned, that would be fair and justifiable to tax payers. I would get rid of all religious teaching from schools...if you want to learn religion, they have plenty of outside sources for that.

[thatone]

Thatone,

 

All I intended to show is that many (possibly the majority) of original founders of our country not only were Christian but encouraged the expression of faith in the public square. Read Lincoln's famous letter to a church where he clearly stated the separation of church and state was intended to keep the the state out of the church, NOT the church our of the state.

 

(Your point about the bad actions of Puritans may or may not be true but isn't the topic of what I was discussing.)

 

they encouraged joining with them or being labeled heretic and executed, in your own example.

[zengirl]

Here's an article from a Baptist who writes thoughtfully, using ACTUAL history, on the separation of church and state, it's reality, and the fact that the United States is hardly -- and was never intended to be -- a Christian nation.

 

Quartz Hill School of Theology

[M30USA]

Here's an article from a Baptist who writes thoughtfully, using ACTUAL history, on the separation of church and state, it's reality, and the fact that the United States is hardly -- and was never intended to be -- a Christian nation.

 

Quartz Hill School of Theology

 

Did I ever say our founding fathers intended this country to be a Christian nation? No I did not! Read my posts for crying out loud.

 

I was merely defending the truth that our founding fathers did, in fact, encourage the idea of religious expression in the public square and public policy. It just so happened, however, that most of them were Christian. This doesn't mean they wanted a Christian theocracy. Just that they wanted religious freedom and expression to be in all levels of society including government.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I think Paul gave Christianity a bad name. He warped a lot of Christ teachings. He promoted intolerance with his sexism, mysogony and anti semitism. Most churches tend to focus more on Paul's teachings than Jesus.

 

 

I believe that many of St. Paul's words have been used to promote hate and were not really written in that spirit.

 

There is a lot of history involving hypocrisy and abuse of power behind what gives Christianity a bad name; I could go on and on. Most people associate the birth of Protestantism with King Henry VIII's desire to bypass Papal authority in order to divorce and remarry, though it definitely predates that event.

 

In current times, I believe some of the key things contributing to the bad name of Christianity include:

 

Using it as a tool for hatred (Westboro Baptist Church, for example)

 

The appropriation of the term "Christianity" by political movements (for example, "The Religious Right" and "Christian Conservatives")

 

The astounding hypocrisy, materialism and greed displayed on television in so-called "prosperity ministries"

 

The public foibles of many of the most outspoken "Christians," such as the Bakkers.

 

All of these things are worlds away from my understanding of what Christ was trying to teach.

 

For the record, I'm not a Christian, but I know some amazing Christians whom I respect and love deeply, and who do NOT buy into any of the above.

[Woggle]

The religious right mostly. I know a lot of good Christians and Christian organizations that do good but when people see the bible being used to oppress gays, suppress reproductive rights and other things that is the image stuck in their head. It's a shame because there are a lot of positive things that can come from faith.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Here is one more:

 

A vocal lack of tolerance and acceptance of various other sects of Christianity than than the particular one a person is a member of. For example, many Evangelical Christians believe that Catholics are practically Heathens or even Satanists.

 

People on the outside of this kind of righteous attitude aren't going to be taking kindly to it.

[Woggle]

Here is one more:

 

A vocal lack of tolerance and acceptance of various other sects of Christianity than than the particular one a person is a member of. For example, many Evangelical Christians believe that Catholics are practically Heathens or even Satanists.

 

People on the outside of this kind of righteous attitude aren't going to be taking kindly to it.

 

That plus liberal Christians are treated like pariahs. There have been a few well known Catholics denied communion because of their stances.

[fortyninethousand322]

Here is one more:

 

A vocal lack of tolerance and acceptance of various other sects of Christianity than than the particular one a person is a member of. For example, many Evangelical Christians believe that Catholics are practically Heathens or even Satanists.

 

People on the outside of this kind of righteous attitude aren't going to be taking kindly to it.

 

This is true. Though to be honest I've definitely seen a decline in this thinking, especially among people my age.

[fortyninethousand322]

That plus liberal Christians are treated like pariahs. There have been a few well known Catholics denied communion because of their stances.

 

Anyone who colors outside the conventional lines can be treated poorly. My friend is a very conservative Christian (went to Liberty U and everything). But because he is a staunch pacifist he gets a bit ostracized (I guess some people forget the whole turn the other cheek thing).

[Mme. Chaucer]

This is true. Though to be honest I've definitely seen a decline in this thinking, especially among people my age.

 

I agree.

 

I have posted this before: My husband's dad was a Baptist pastor plus he held a high position in the church's "conference." The kids were held to a very strict standard.

 

One of my sisters-in-law was partnered with a kid in school to work on a project. The boy was Catholic. The dad would not let that boy enter their home. He turned him away at the front door.

 

This was "normal," according to him and to the community in church. But the kids were in public school, and it was not "normal" there, at all.

[M30USA]

I recommend the classic book "Mere Christianity" by CS Lewis. He lays out concisely what the core, unchanging views are for those who identify themselves as Christian. He also shows what views DON'T matter and may be subjected to interpretation.

[Titanwolf]

My beliefs are most related to Deism. However, I was once a Catholic and from what I gathered observing other "Catholics", is that what gives any religion a bad name, is the people who represent it. Also, people are always quick to forget the good that these people do when an individual, claiming to be of the same faith, commit an act that most would condemn any person for, be they Atheist, Buddhist, Islamic, Christian you name it. Tbh, the problem I have with religion, is the corruption, the arrogance, the manipulation and the "what I say is the truth and everything else is a lie" mentality many have adopted in today's society.

[M30USA]

My beliefs are most related to Deism. However, I was once a Catholic and from what I gathered observing other "Catholics", is that what gives any religion a bad name, is the people who represent it. Also, people are always quick to forget the good that these people do when an individual, claiming to be of the same faith, commit an act that most would condemn any person for, be they Atheist, Buddhist, Islamic, Christian you name it. Tbh, the problem I have with religion, is the corruption, the arrogance, the manipulation and the "what I say is the truth and everything else is a lie" mentality many have adopted in today's society.

 

Hmmm...I agree 75%.

 

Even Jesus had to continuously rebuke his own disciples for being so arrogant, stupid, and shortsighted. He frequently told them that they had in mind the things of man and not the things of God. He even rebuked a disciple and addressed him as Satan when the disciple tried to keep him from going to the cross to die.

 

My contention is that we sinful people must always remember to fall back upon God's Word. If we have disagreements, let it not be over who is better or worse, who is smarter, etc, but rather what the Word of God says. If some of God's Word is subject to intrepretation, let us present our point as to who has the correct one based on what is most consistent with Scripture, never making it a personal issue. Most importantly let us know what really matters (the personage of Christ) and not let anything else take center stage.

[BetheButterfly]

Proselytizing.

 

Making disciples is basically a command from Jesus to his disciples (Matthew 28). However, it doesn't hurt anybody unless people force it. For example, when Jesus' apostles started teaching about Jesus, people were free to reject or accept. Many rejected and some accepted. What is horrible, in my personal opinion, is when people try to force others to accept and hurt them if they don't. That is unacceptable, in my opinion.

 

Another evangelical faith is Islam. I very much respect my Muslim friends who are kind and good and who pray for me to "revert" to Islam. I know they care for me, as well as my eternal destiny. Now, I personally do not believe at all that I will go to hell for not believing Muhammad's claims. However, I respect their right to pray for me and tell me what they believe. It doesn't hurt me at all. However, if they tried to force me, I would very much have an issue with it!!!

 

I feel the same about political parties. I'm not a Democrat nor am I Republican. I'm an Independent for many reasons lol, and I have friends on both sides who are loyal to their political party. Both tell me why their party is the "right" one, and they are both free to do so. (I enjoy hearing from both). However, I let them know that I don't appreciate it when they try to get me to join their side. I don't agree with either side 100%.

 

 

Hypocrisy.

 

Intolerance.

 

Discrimination.

 

Understood. These are sad that Christians do this, because Jesus preached against hypocrisy and Jesus was very tolerant of "sinners" which the religious leaders of his day condemned.

 

Attempt to bury scientific evidence or prevent scientific breakthroughs.

 

It's important to remember that science is the study of what is physically observable. The scientific method includes observation and conducting experiments based on manipulation of factors and observing the results. The understanding of theories is constantly changing based on observations. So, what one believes as a scientific fact today can be changed tomorrow by observations and additional theories based on those observations. Science is progressive, not concrete. The only way that one can really know for sure what happened in past is if time could someday be manipulated, where people could go back in the past to record data. Now, I don't know if that is possible for mankind to someday eventually be able to do, but it would greatly help in knowing what happened a long time ago! About attempt to bury scientific evidence or prevent scientific breakthroughs, it's important to note that many Christians led the way for people to understand science, including Galileo. It is sad that churches did not support them, but one shouldn't judge a belief only by what corrupt religious leaders do. Rather, a person should also note what people who do believe in God who study and invent do, such as the Wright Brothers. Their belief in God did not impede them from flying.

 

I see all of these from Christians, in the name of their religion, firsthand in the South. That's not to say it's all Christians, but there are many who will say their religion does call them to do these things. That would give tolerant, kind Christians like you, B, a bad name.

 

Do you see any Christians who are loving and kind in the South? I personally know kind and loving Christians who I strive to learn from, as well as not kind ones. I see this in every belief, as well as with Atheists too. There are kind ones and mean ones in every belief.

 

So, do you think that the mean ones of any belief or lack of belief often give whatever belief a bad name?

 

 

 

 

Agree entirely. I have no problem with anyone's worship, as long as they don't expect me to accept it as truth - I will never force mine upon them that way either - or build it into society and law. But Christians do, perhaps the worst of that in this particular country I live in (USA), so they frustrate me the most. Other religions do it in other countries too, and I'm equally against that.

 

Completely understood. Yeah, here in the USA, Christianity has been the "dominate" belief system for centuries. Maybe that's why they frustrate you more than others? In the Middle East, the dominate in many countries for centuries has been Islam. In India, Hinduism. In Asia, what has been the dominate belief system? (I don't know very much about Asian countries, though I very much admire the respect they have for teachers and elders!!!)

 

Thanks so much for your input. Your posts are always thought-provoking and teach me a lot.

Edited August 1, 2012 by BetheButterfly

[BetheButterfly]

The religious right mostly. I know a lot of good Christians and Christian organizations that do good but when people see the bible being used to oppress gays, suppress reproductive rights and other things that is the image stuck in their head. It's a shame because there are a lot of positive things that can come from faith.

 

I think a lot of it depends on worldviews and how people react to other peoples' worldviews.

 

For example, it is true that both in the Tanakh and the Christian Bible (New Testament) homosexuality is considered sin (as well as heterosexual adultery and other things classified as sexual immorality... incest, bestiality, prostitution). The Tanakh is very harsh against those sexual "no-no's" and even though the New Testament is less harsh, the Christian worldview is that those sexual acts are "no-no's", though many people do them anyways.

 

Now, it shouldn't be Christians' "job" to regulate what non-Christians do. As for Christians who believe homosexuality is ok, they should be perfectly free to start their own churches.

 

Concerning reproductive rights, Christians who are against abortion see it as killing the fetus. Because the fetus is human and is alive, they consider making a live human fetus to no longer be alive = murder. One of the 10 commandments that God gave to Moses is to not murder. Jesus echoed that commandment. Although abortion is not talked about in the Bible, it is true that in Jewish beliefs/traditions, having children was considered an honor and an blessing, not a burden.

 

However and again, it is not Christians' "jobs" to regulate what non-Christians do or don't do. If Non Christians want to kill human life inside the womb, that is their issue. If Christians have no problem doing this (and one of my best friends does not consider abortion to be murder, that that is simply between that individual and God. I do not condemn my good friend who thinks this. She knows what I believe about it, and she disagrees with me, and has tearfully told me why she doesn't agree. The reason is because she herself was abused and had an abortion because of the abuse. She was raped repeatedly. I understand why she had the abortion, and talking with her actually helped me see the benefits of the day after pill, and readjusted my view that human life begins when the heart first starts beating, instead of at conception. She got an abortion before the heart started beating, and I understand and think that's ok. I also apologized for hurting her feelings. That was not my intention and I do think it's important to be kind and sensitive to people who do not believe the same as I do. She has reasons for what she believes, and many stem from the fact that her teenage years were not as happy and healthy as mine were. I have never been sexually abused/raped, whereas she has. She understands that I have not experienced the same injustices in life as she has, and now we just simply don't talk about abortion. I love her for who she is and I don't condemn her, and I know for a fact she is a wonderful lady and a wonderful Mom with 2 amazing kids. She loves God and is a Christian and who am I to judge her?

[TheFinalWord]

The only way that one can really know for sure what happened in past is if time could someday be manipulated, where people could go back in the past to record data. Now, I don't know if that is possible for mankind to someday eventually be able to do, but it would greatly help in knowing what happened a long time ago!

 

Hi Be, Good to see you back! You always have great insights.

 

I agree with everything you said. The only thing is that the science of astronomy can actually look into the past. Astronomers can actually observe various epochs of time. I only bring this up b/c some Christians claim we can never know anything about the past. But we actually can. Some Christians think it is this ability that offers some of the greatest evidences for God. Dr. Hugh Ross is one such apologist:

 

Has God Given Us The Book Of Nature? - YouTube

[Gulf-Delta]

Hello,

 

As a Christian, I enjoy questioning about my belief. While researching, many events in history has me so ashamed about what other people did in the name of Jesus.

 

Jesus, whose name was probably Yeshua, taught love and forgiveness. A descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, ... David, ... he followed the Tanakh and quoted it in his teachings, delving deeper in the reasons for different laws. (Matthew 5 is an example.) Although he did call the religious leaders of his people names which were not very nice, he didn't insult either the Romans who had conquered his country, or the "sinners" who the religious leaders despised. He taught his apostles and disciples to love, to forgive, to do good, to help those in need, to pray, to bless those who curse them, and to endure persecution. He did instruct them to tell others about him and to make disciples, but he didn't teach them to take over the government or force people to believe in him.

 

I think what gives Christianity a bad name is what happened later, not what happened in the time of Jesus or his chosen apostles. The early believers in Jesus' teachings were definitely persecuted, and Rome did kill many. However, it seems that when Constantine made Rome a "Christian" nation, that is when violence entered into the thinking of many Christians.

 

Other nations, including European nations touched with Rome's influence, became "Christian" nations, and practiced violence against people who did not believe the same way they did, violence which Jesus did not teach. In all the historical events such as the Inquisition, the Crusades, the witchhunts, the killing of Native Americans, the confiscations of nonbelievers' property... where was the love that Jesus taught???

 

I think this is where Christianity got a bad name, as well as "Christians" abusing children, stealing, and hating people, all of which are not taught by Jesus.

 

So basically, what gives Christianity a bad name is that many "Christians" have not obeyed Jesus' teachings.

 

What are your thoughts? Please be courteous? Thanks.

 

It's probably the bigotry and hypocrisy

[M30USA]

Hi Be, Good to see you back! You always have great insights.

 

I agree with everything you said. The only thing is that the science of astronomy can actually look into the past. Astronomers can actually observe various epochs of time. I only bring this up b/c some Christians claim we can never know anything about the past. But we actually can. Some Christians think it is this ability that offers some of the greatest evidences for God. Dr. Hugh Ross is one such apologist:

 

Has God Given Us The Book Of Nature? - YouTube

 

Hey TFW,

 

Not sure if you're referring to me there. I never said we "can ever know anything about the past". I only said we cannot apply the criteria of the scientific method to anything which happened in the past--since a criteria is repeatability. I obviously do believe we can know lots about the past by observation and examination and by using other forms of "proof" than just the scientific method. That's all I meant.

[TheFinalWord]

Hey TFW,

 

Not sure if you're referring to me there. I never said we "can ever know anything about the past". I only said we cannot apply the criteria of the scientific method to anything which happened in the past--since a criteria is repeatability. I obviously do believe we can know lots about the past by observation and examination and by using other forms of "proof" than just the scientific method. That's all I meant.

 

No, wasn't referring to you! Mainly referring to Kent Hovind LOL If you said something similar, I apologize it wasn't meant to be for you. I can't keep up with all of the debates on here sometimes. You have a lot of knowledge on the bible so I'm sure you can defend yourself haha Depends who the responders are in the debates. Some of them are just here to mock so I don't even read their comments to you. But I will say your name or quote you. I'm not a back handed slap kinda poster

 

Good debate you might like to watch though. Walter Kaiser makes an appearance. He had the privilege to work with original biblical manuscripts. Speaks like 7 languages and wrote his college notes in Hittite lol

 

Debate on science and the bible - YouTube

 

Just pointing that out b/c BeButterfly is probably the best Christian representative on the board. She has a lot of wisdom and patience of Job I was hoping she could clarify what she meant and if she forgot about astronomy just to add to her post.

Edited August 2, 2012 by TheFinalWord