zengirl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Proselytizing. Hypocrisy. Intolerance. Discrimination. Attempt to bury scientific evidence or prevent scientific breakthroughs. I see all of these from Christians, in the name of their religion, firsthand in the South. That's not to say it's all Christians, but there are many who will say their religion does call them to do these things. That would give tolerant, kind Christians like you, B, a bad name. Christianity is fine at home or in their cathedrals, but leave it there. Once you all begin trying to using spiritual belief to change laws or to influence the education of children, that's it, the gloves are off. I'm too old to just keep my mouth shut, and I just don't care as much if feelings get hurt. Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of other religions offend me when they try to force me to live in a world that is based on nothing more than old epic tales. Agree entirely. I have no problem with anyone's worship, as long as they don't expect me to accept it as truth - I will never force mine upon them that way either - or build it into society and law. But Christians do, perhaps the worst of that in this particular country I live in (USA), so they frustrate me the most. Other religions do it in other countries too, and I'm equally against that.
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 Religion is a form of power. Its power is absolute. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. I consider religion to be a tool that some people who are in power or struggling to attain power use, which is interesting. However, there are other forms of power as well. About absolute power corrupts absolutely, I do believe that is indeed the case when the power is in human hands. I think that is one reason why Jesus did not encourage his apostles/disciples to take control of the government.
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 You are presuming Jesus was God in human form. When I look at him now, I see a man who was deluded, nothing more. Possibly even a con artist. Either that or the stories are exagerated or even fictional. And take a look at his disciples. One denied him, another doubted him and another betrayed him. That doesn't sounds like the acts of men who rubbed shoulders with the son of God and witnessed the amazing miracles the gospels portray. It sounds like men who doubted that Jesus was divine. Sure, the stories say Jesus did humble things, but what strikes me a lot about Jesus was his intolerence towards those who believed different things to him. They were all just flagged away as fools and evil doers. One of his more imfamous quotes was "If you are not for me you are against me." Paranoia at its worst and a classic example of intolerence... not to mention a logical fallacy which one would not expect from a God being. It shows a serious lack of understanding about how we as humans view things. It's like he's saying "how dare you think differently to me!" One thing i have learned over the last 10 years or so is that we all think differently and we all have difference personalities. This affects the way we view the world. It affects what we need as human beings. Witches, homosexuals, Pharasees, Gentiles, Muslims, etc... just because they believe differently does not make them evil. I would expect a God would have a better understanding of the differences in human beings than what Jesus did. People who knew Jesus face to face till people of today obviously all have different ideas concerning Jesus. Jesus did indeed have enemies, most of them being the religious leaders of his people and day. His friends included "sinners," which bothered the religious leaders. For example, "While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” - Mark 2:15-17 Jesus also allowed a woman who had lived a "sinful life" to touch him, which also annoyed the religious leaders... "36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. "When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.” Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” - Luke 6:39-40 Anyways, people are free to think whatever they want about Jesus. Jesus, by the way, did not teach his apostles/disciples to kill or persecute those who didn't follow him or who were ex-followers. I personally am very glad about this, and very glad that Jesus did not kill anybody. Jesus has been hated and despised by people since his ministry began. However, his followers are not supposed to hate or despise, but rather love our enemies.
M30USA Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Everybody has a religion or guiding worldview. The guiding worldview of nearly all politicians is Secular Humanism. But they get off the hook because it's not recognized as a religion, but the implications of it are jammed down people's throats and forced into policy.
Tulsy Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 .... Look up the Old Deluder Satan Act of the 1600s. You will find that your own view is but a blip and exception to our history and didn't come about until the 1960s. Everybody has a religion or guiding worldview. The guiding worldview of nearly all politicians is Secular Humanism. But they get off the hook because it's not recognized as a religion, but the implications of it are jammed down people's throats and forced into policy. I don't agree with this at all...I know you believe it because you've said over and over again. I have my own views, which I arrive at on my own. Of course I will agree with some things this guy says, and disagree with some things that guy says. Still, I think for myself and deside what I think is reasonably accurate and true...I don`t expect a magic force to tell me what is right and wrong. A lot of my "ideas" are from different sources. I don`t believe everyone has a religion. I don`t consider myself anything but an open book. I figure chit out as I go...I like to think for myself, and I don`t hear voices in my head. I don`t really have a guiding worldview either. I have opinions, but I don`t have an outline. I don`t consider Secular Humanism a religion. That's a lable given to something normal people do naturally...many people recognize that religion is not required for people to be ethical, you can't call them all Secular Humanists. I won't be going to Secular Humanism church on Sunday, and I don't need to read a book on how to treat people. I don't consider myself a Humanist either. I think that since you believe the holy spirit guides all your thoughts and actions (which I think is delusional), you may believe that satan (or something else) guides all non-believers. Well, a lot of things guide me...I have my own goals in life. 1
M30USA Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Tulsy, So you have your own views and they're not religious. But you have your own views and you express them in public and don't keep them hidden in a closet. If you were in office, you would use these very views to enforce policy. Stop expecting Christians not to do the same. Otherwise you are censoring thought and prohibiting diversity. (Not expecting any "likes".) 1
Forever Silent Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I consider religion to be a tool that some people who are in power or struggling to attain power use, which is interesting. However, there are other forms of power as well. About absolute power corrupts absolutely, I do believe that is indeed the case when the power is in human hands. I think that is one reason why Jesus did not encourage his apostles/disciples to take control of the government. Yeah but only a few forms of power are absolute, I consider religion to be a form of absolute power.
zengirl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Everybody has a religion or guiding worldview. The guiding worldview of nearly all politicians is Secular Humanism. But they get off the hook because it's not recognized as a religion, but the implications of it are jammed down people's throats and forced into policy. This is just plain nonsense. Most politicians in the United States have to at least profess or pretend to be Judeo-Christian. It's rare you find an elected official, of any high level of office, who is outwardly agnostic, atheist, or any minority religion. 1
aj22one Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 As long as there is government people will try to force their views on someone else. Christians should have no right to tell other people what their children should be taught in school, and non-Christians have no right to so either. No one should have the right to prevent gays from getting married, but at the same token no one has to accept gay marriage either. "Don't tread on others" should be humanity's motto. Instead we tread on others all the time. 2
Forever Silent Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 This is just plain nonsense. Most politicians in the United States have to at least profess or pretend to be Judeo-Christian. It's rare you find an elected official, of any high level of office, who is outwardly agnostic, atheist, or any minority religion. That willl change it time however. As demographics change so will politician's political alleigiances. In areas where there are more athesits, I bet we will see some atheist politicians. The same would be for any other religion. Also what does it matter. Ideally a person religion should not impact a man political decision.
M30USA Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 This is just plain nonsense. Most politicians in the United States have to at least profess or pretend to be Judeo-Christian. It's rare you find an elected official, of any high level of office, who is outwardly agnostic, atheist, or any minority religion. They profess Christianity to get elected but many aren't.
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 Christianity is fine at home or in their cathedrals, but leave it there. Once you all begin trying to using spiritual belief to change laws or to influence the education of children, that's it, the gloves are off. I'm too old to just keep my mouth shut, and I just don't care as much if feelings get hurt. Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of other religions offend me when they try to force me to live in a world that is based on nothing more than old epic tales. First of all, Jesus did not teach his apostles/disciples to take over Rome. He told them they would be persecuted, and they were. They weren't "running for office" or anything like that. However, the history of Western nations has a predominately "Christian" influence, since after Rome made Christianity the state religion, this influence went to the European nations as well. Many of these "Christians" throughout history did not care at all about hurting the feelings (or bodies for that matter) of Muslims, Jews, and members of other religions. I personally am very sad at how "Christians" in the past treated people of other beliefs, including the Native Americans in the USA, my country. I'm not sure where you are from, but the USA has a very strong "Christian" influence, since many of the European immigrants to the "New World" were escaping European monarchies who were connected with the state. The Pilgrims and the Puritans are prime examples. Many of the Founding Fathers of the USA were Christians, including George Washington and John Adams. Although others were Deists, like Thomas Jefferson who is a very interesting person, it is true that the USA has been extremely influenced by Gentile Christian ideals. That continues to this day, though it does seem that there are less and less people who call themselves Christians in the USA. I think many Non-Christian Americans do have an issue today with how Christians in the past and present are mean, rude, and try to force people to do/not do things. Personally, I am very much for private schools for the reason you stated concerning education. Private schools afford people of different beliefs the opportunity to instruct their children in what is important to them. For my family for example, learning about the religious beliefs of men and women of the past is important. It might not be important to other people of today, however. As for laws, the USA is a democratic-republic, which is really cool! Because the government is for the people, that even includes the people of religious beliefs, as well as the people who do not believe in God. This means that all people need to work together and learn to compromise in the laws they desire for their country. Because freedom of religion, freedom of press, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech,and other freedoms are rights for every citizen, regardless of belief, Christians have just as much a right to strive for laws to change as Non-Christians do. Personally, I am so thankful that Martin Luther King Jr, an imperfect Christian but a great man, was instrumental in changing unjust laws concerning segregation!!!
aj22one Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 As for laws, the USA is a democratic-republic, which is really cool! Because the government is for the people, that even includes the people of religious beliefs, as well as the people who do not believe in God. This means that all people need to work together and learn to compromise in the laws they desire for their country. Because freedom of religion, freedom of press, freedom of assembly, freedom of speech,and other freedoms are rights for every citizen, regardless of belief, Christians have just as much a right to strive for laws to change as Non-Christians do. Personally, I am so thankful that Martin Luther King Jr, an imperfect Christian but a great man, was instrumental in changing unjust laws concerning segregation!!! Some laws though have no business being passed in the first place. Which is precisely the problem that has caused this believer vs unbeliever war in the public and legal sphere. 1
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 Some laws though have no business being passed in the first place. Which is precisely the problem that has caused this believer vs unbeliever war in the public and legal sphere. I do agree that the laws concerning segregation and laws that hurt the Native Americans and other people groups in the USA should not ever have been passed. What laws were passed that has caused the believer vs. unbeliever war exactly? Thanks.
aj22one Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I do agree that the laws concerning segregation and laws that hurt the Native Americans and other people groups in the USA should not ever have been passed. What laws were passed that has caused the believer vs. unbeliever war exactly? Thanks. Gay marriage laws. Issues over religious displays on government property (like at a courthouse for example). Bans on stem cell research, arguments over what's taught in schools. All of that causes conflict. 1
Forever Silent Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 It would be easier if the feds gave more powers to the states so that some of these issues can be solved in the states. That way if you have a chrisitan state which opposes gay marriage their state can have a man/woman marriage only. The same would go if you had a pro-gay marriage state. That way more people can be sastified without having the whole country fight it out.
aj22one Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 It would be easier if the feds gave more powers to the states so that some of these issues can be solved in the states. That way if you have a chrisitan state which opposes gay marriage their state can have a man/woman marriage only. The same would go if you had a pro-gay marriage state. That way more people can be sastified without having the whole country fight it out. Ideally, there would be no states. Government is an unnecessary evil. Long ago, I used to think like you: small government, more power to the 50 individual states. But I realized (after some convincing by my wife) that there's no difference between one tyrant 3,000 miles away and 3,000 tyrants one mile away. 1
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 Gay marriage laws. Issues over religious displays on government property (like at a courthouse for example). Bans on stem cell research, arguments over what's taught in schools. All of that causes conflict. Conflict can happen over anything. (Believe me, I have 3 little sisters!) People can fight over which is better, tea or cofffee. So, in the USA, since we are more than just one belief group, it's important for us to learn how to agree to disagree and support laws we like and protest laws we don't. In Martin Luther King Jr.'s time, he concentrated on unjust laws that were important to him and that influenced everybody. He did it without being rude/hateful/nasty. Rather, he simply stated the truth head on and peaceably fought to change the law. People today can do that too with issues they care about, and instead of turning it into a horrible cockfight, can strive to make the USA a better place for everybody.
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) It would be easier if the feds gave more powers to the states so that some of these issues can be solved in the states. That way if you have a chrisitan state which opposes gay marriage their state can have a man/woman marriage only. The same would go if you had a pro-gay marriage state. That way more people can be sastified without having the whole country fight it out. It's interesting how this thread came to be about politics, but maybe that's how Christianity has gotten a bad name in this age, hmm? As for gay marriage, I personally do not understand why Christians want to regulate what non-Christians do. Now, there are Christians who consider the gay lifestyle to be fine, and that's between them and God. I'm not their Judge. However, I personally do not understand why Christians in the USA want to force people who do not believe the same to not get married. Marriage is simply a commitment/covenant that people make to each other. I honestly don't even know why heterosexual people who commit to each other register with the government. To me it all seems kind of silly. I mean, what does the government have to do with the promises/vows I make with my husband??? Why did my hubby pay them for a certificate? What's a piece of paper? The important part of marriage is the promise, not a paper! If people, regardless of whether they are the same gender or opposite gender, want to promise love and faithfulness to each other, that is not my business. My business is to keep the promises of love and faithfulness that I made to my husband. I would have made the promise to love him and be faithful to him even if the government had not sold us a certificate and then registered it. As for Christians in the USA, I wonder if since the USA has been under Christian ideals for so long, we seem to want it to stay that way? I think it's important for Christians, including me, to remember that Jesus did not promise us a government or country on earth. He promised the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyways, I personally think Christians should not hold Non-Christians to Christian values/convictions. Edited July 25, 2012 by BetheButterfly 1
zengirl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 They profess Christianity to get elected but many aren't. Personally, I'm not comfortable telling a person what they are. However, my point is that it's hardly a secular humanist society or ANY kind of fair society without religion enslaving people if one must profess a religion to get elected or if elections are impacted by that at all. 1
M30USA Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Personally, I'm not comfortable telling a person what they are. However, my point is that it's hardly a secular humanist society or ANY kind of fair society without religion enslaving people if one must profess a religion to get elected or if elections are impacted by that at all. I'm fully comfortable doing that. If you claim to be Christian yet routinely deny Christ and all of his teachings, you aren't a Christian. "By their fruits ye shall know them." -Jesus
thatone Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Thats not what the early colonialists and the majority of founding fathers believed. Look up the Old Deluder Satan Act of the 1600s. You will find that your own view is but a blip and exception to our history and didn't come about until the 1960s. those people also burned and hanged other christians who they didn't like. early colonialists were not the founders of the USA, btw. if anything they were more quaker than puritan, quakers believing in a strict separation of church and state. 1
Zaphod B Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 People who knew Jesus face to face till people of today obviously all have different ideas concerning Jesus. Jesus did indeed have enemies, most of them being the religious leaders of his people and day. His friends included "sinners," which bothered the religious leaders. For example, "While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” - Mark 2:15-17 Jesus also allowed a woman who had lived a "sinful life" to touch him, which also annoyed the religious leaders... "36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. "When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.” Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” - Luke 6:39-40 Anyways, people are free to think whatever they want about Jesus. Jesus, by the way, did not teach his apostles/disciples to kill or persecute those who didn't follow him or who were ex-followers. I personally am very glad about this, and very glad that Jesus did not kill anybody. Jesus has been hated and despised by people since his ministry began. However, his followers are not supposed to hate or despise, but rather love our enemies. Yep, Jesus certainly did rub shoulders with some that were considered to be terrible people, but I can't help but be a little cynical when I see that many of these so-called scum bags were of the wealthy variety. I would be more impressed with him if he'd hung out with the Baal worshippers or some other religious group rather than those who shared similar religious beliefs to him.
Zaphod B Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 People who knew Jesus face to face till people of today obviously all have different ideas concerning Jesus. Jesus did indeed have enemies, most of them being the religious leaders of his people and day. His friends included "sinners," which bothered the religious leaders. For example, "While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” - Mark 2:15-17 Jesus also allowed a woman who had lived a "sinful life" to touch him, which also annoyed the religious leaders... "36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. "When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.” Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” - Luke 6:39-40 Anyways, people are free to think whatever they want about Jesus. Jesus, by the way, did not teach his apostles/disciples to kill or persecute those who didn't follow him or who were ex-followers. I personally am very glad about this, and very glad that Jesus did not kill anybody. Jesus has been hated and despised by people since his ministry began. However, his followers are not supposed to hate or despise, but rather love our enemies. Yes, Jesus definitely did rub shoulders with some supposed scum bags and low lifes, but I can't help but be a little cynical when I see that they were very wealth scum bags and low lifes who also happened to have similar beliefs to him. I would have been more impressed if he'd hung out with Baal worshippers or people from other religions.
Zaphod B Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 People who knew Jesus face to face till people of today obviously all have different ideas concerning Jesus. Jesus did indeed have enemies, most of them being the religious leaders of his people and day. His friends included "sinners," which bothered the religious leaders. For example, "While Jesus was having dinner at Levi’s house, many tax collectors and sinners were eating with him and his disciples, for there were many who followed him. When the teachers of the law who were Pharisees saw him eating with the sinners and tax collectors, they asked his disciples: “Why does he eat with tax collectors and sinners?”On hearing this, Jesus said to them, “It is not the healthy who need a doctor, but the sick. I have not come to call the righteous, but sinners.” - Mark 2:15-17 Jesus also allowed a woman who had lived a "sinful life" to touch him, which also annoyed the religious leaders... "36 When one of the Pharisees invited Jesus to have dinner with him, he went to the Pharisee’s house and reclined at the table. 37 A woman in that town who lived a sinful life learned that Jesus was eating at the Pharisee’s house, so she came there with an alabaster jar of perfume. 38 As she stood behind him at his feet weeping, she began to wet his feet with her tears. Then she wiped them with her hair, kissed them and poured perfume on them. "When the Pharisee who had invited him saw this, he said to himself, “If this man were a prophet, he would know who is touching him and what kind of woman she is—that she is a sinner.” Jesus answered him, “Simon, I have something to tell you.” - Luke 6:39-40 Anyways, people are free to think whatever they want about Jesus. Jesus, by the way, did not teach his apostles/disciples to kill or persecute those who didn't follow him or who were ex-followers. I personally am very glad about this, and very glad that Jesus did not kill anybody. Jesus has been hated and despised by people since his ministry began. However, his followers are not supposed to hate or despise, but rather love our enemies. Yes, Jesus definitely did rub shoulders with some apparent scum bags and low lifes, but I can't help but be a little cynical when I see that they were very wealth scum bags and low lifes... who also happened to have similar beliefs to him. I would have been more impressed if he'd hung out with Baal worshippers or people from other religions.
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