BetheButterfly Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Hello, As a Christian, I enjoy questioning about my belief. While researching, many events in history has me so ashamed about what other people did in the name of Jesus. Jesus, whose name was probably Yeshua, taught love and forgiveness. A descendant of Abraham, Isaac, Jacob, ... David, ... he followed the Tanakh and quoted it in his teachings, delving deeper in the reasons for different laws. (Matthew 5 is an example.) Although he did call the religious leaders of his people names which were not very nice, he didn't insult either the Romans who had conquered his country, or the "sinners" who the religious leaders despised. He taught his apostles and disciples to love, to forgive, to do good, to help those in need, to pray, to bless those who curse them, and to endure persecution. He did instruct them to tell others about him and to make disciples, but he didn't teach them to take over the government or force people to believe in him. I think what gives Christianity a bad name is what happened later, not what happened in the time of Jesus or his chosen apostles. The early believers in Jesus' teachings were definitely persecuted, and Rome did kill many. However, it seems that when Constantine made Rome a "Christian" nation, that is when violence entered into the thinking of many Christians. Other nations, including European nations touched with Rome's influence, became "Christian" nations, and practiced violence against people who did not believe the same way they did, violence which Jesus did not teach. In all the historical events such as the Inquisition, the Crusades, the witchhunts, the killing of Native Americans, the confiscations of nonbelievers' property... where was the love that Jesus taught??? I think this is where Christianity got a bad name, as well as "Christians" abusing children, stealing, and hating people, all of which are not taught by Jesus. So basically, what gives Christianity a bad name is that many "Christians" have not obeyed Jesus' teachings. What are your thoughts? Please be courteous? Thanks.
Radu Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Pretty much all the things that would give a bad name to any other organized religion which puts a group of ppl between believers and their God. Now, mind you, Christianity did some good through what you just mentioned, it held Europe together in the early Middle Ages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. It just got ... corrupted when the Pope went from 'primus inter pares' to the absolute ruler of the Church. Selling of forgiveness, abuse, killings in the Crusades [4th Crusade is especially fun with that], the Bible being written in languages not understood by the commoners, witch hunts, etc ... And it went on with fanaticism, look at the way the Catholic Church spread to the Americas, or more recently the pedophile priests, or for even more fun, look up the scandal of Catholic Monastaries in Ireland i think, where young girls of single mothers were sent by judges to a life of abuse, and overwork, never to be released. The Monastaries sold the work of these girls by cleaning sheets at a very small price. If you want to look at why the Christian Church is reviled, compare the Catholic with the Eastern Orthodox. The latter is not as reviled and the priests can marry in it, which doesn't fill the newslots with tales of pedophilia.
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 24, 2012 Author Posted July 24, 2012 Pretty much all the things that would give a bad name to any other organized religion which puts a group of ppl between believers and their God. Now, mind you, Christianity did some good through what you just mentioned, it held Europe together in the early Middle Ages after the fall of the Western Roman Empire. It just got ... corrupted when the Pope went from 'primus inter pares' to the absolute ruler of the Church. Selling of forgiveness, abuse, killings in the Crusades [4th Crusade is especially fun with that], the Bible being written in languages not understood by the commoners, witch hunts, etc ... And it went on with fanaticism, look at the way the Catholic Church spread to the Americas, or more recently the pedophile priests, or for even more fun, look up the scandal of Catholic Monastaries in Ireland i think, where young girls of single mothers were sent by judges to a life of abuse, and overwork, never to be released. The Monastaries sold the work of these girls by cleaning sheets at a very small price. If you want to look at why the Christian Church is reviled, compare the Catholic with the Eastern Orthodox. The latter is not as reviled and the priests can marry in it, which doesn't fill the newslots with tales of pedophilia. Well, that is a good point about "holding Europe together." Thanks for adding a plus. It is true that Christianity and in basically any religion when people believe the same, there is unity. Unity does tend to help people and nations who believe the same. However, it is horrible when Christianity, which is centered on Christ, becomes known through the horrible acts of "Christians" who stray from Christ. Christ = Messiah = Anointed One. Christians believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Messiah, the Anointed One who God promised King David would be on his throne forever (2 Samuel 7, 1 Chronicles 17, Psalm 2, Psalm 89) When his alleged followers do all those horrible things, including sexually abusing children and enslaving girls, that does not show anything that has to do with Jesus. About the differences between Catholics and Eastern Orthodox, I didn't know that. I do think it's puzzling why some people believe priests shouldn't marry. Peter (the name Jesus gave to him... before he was Simon) who many people believe was the leader Jesus ordained of the church, was married. Jesus healed Peter's mother-in-law...
M30USA Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 It is an assumption to believe that there must be a reason for a person, group, or idea to have a bad wrap. Some people are hated without reason--whether it's out of jealousy, fear, or conviction. Don't underestimate the potential for self deception within the human heart and mind.
Radu Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Peter was married before he met Jesus i think. I might not remember right, but i think the immediately following popes after Peter were also married. Eastern Orthodox Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Feelin Frisky Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 What give Christianity a bad name is hypocrisy. There is nothing wrong with real Christianity but it takes a big effort and some special capacity not everyone has to understand it and practice it. What a lot of people practice as Christianity is the opposite of what Christ's message is about. If the message were about "worship" then God would have ridden out of the sky on a golden chariot and everyone would know the truth and yield to it. But Jesus was born into an ordinary family and struggled to do extraordinary things which tested the great powers of the Roman Empire and the Jewish aristocracy. I believe his message is about standing up for love and fellowship, never yielding your individual will to a mass or mob, going to your death rather than go along with the mob. Most people who identify as Christians in America today go along with the mob--they "hate" the same things, yield to the same powers, and give over their will on bended knees. 3
amaysngrace Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 I think any religion gets a bad name when people of that faith try to ram it down your throat. Also when people act badly but profess their faith as if that were the cause for their bad acts it can leave a sour taste in your mouth. Hey...my post sounds a little oral sexual.
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 24, 2012 Author Posted July 24, 2012 Peter was married before he met Jesus i think. I might not remember right, but i think the immediately following popes after Peter were also married. Eastern Orthodox Church - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia I think you're right. Jesus healed Simon (Peter)'s mother-in-law. (Mark 1:29-31) The Jewish priests, by the way, were married. Zechariah, the father of John the Baptist, was a priest, a descendant of Aaron the first Jewish priest.
Author BetheButterfly Posted July 24, 2012 Author Posted July 24, 2012 What give Christianity a bad name is hypocrisy. That is a good point. There is nothing wrong with real Christianity but it takes a big effort and some special capacity not everyone has to understand it and practice it. What a lot of people practice as Christianity is the opposite of what Christ's message is about. Agreed If the message were about "worship" then God would have ridden out of the sky on a golden chariot and everyone would know the truth and yield to it. Well, I do believe that Christianity includes worshipping God, but it also includes faith and for some reason which I sort of understand but not completely, I do believe faith is very important. It would be so nice if God did show Himself to everyone, but obviously He doesn't. But Jesus was born into an ordinary family and struggled to do extraordinary things which tested the great powers of the Roman Empire and the Jewish aristocracy. I believe his message is about standing up for love and fellowship, never yielding your individual will to a mass or mob, going to your death rather than go along with the mob. Wow! That is a cool summary! I agree that Jesus' message is about love! Most people who identify as Christians in America today go along with the mob--they "hate" the same things, yield to the same powers, and give over their will on bended knees. I'm not quite sure all of what the above means in detail, but I do agree that Christians who hate others are not following Jesus' example of loving others. Could you please explain more in detail what you mean? Thanks.
M30USA Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 What give Christianity a bad name is hypocrisy. There is nothing wrong with real Christianity but it takes a big effort and some special capacity not everyone has to understand it and practice it. What a lot of people practice as Christianity is the opposite of what Christ's message is about. If the message were about "worship" then God would have ridden out of the sky on a golden chariot and everyone would know the truth and yield to it. But Jesus was born into an ordinary family and struggled to do extraordinary things which tested the great powers of the Roman Empire and the Jewish aristocracy. I believe his message is about standing up for love and fellowship, never yielding your individual will to a mass or mob, going to your death rather than go along with the mob. Most people who identify as Christians in America today go along with the mob--they "hate" the same things, yield to the same powers, and give over their will on bended knees. I agree with you on a certain level. I would just add that Jesus repeatedly made it known that the issue wasn't what he DID, but who he WAS. I don't know how many times he asked people this question: "Who do you say that I am?" 2
Forever Silent Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Religion is a form of power. Its power is absolute. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
M30USA Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Religion is a form of power. Its power is absolute. Absolute power corrupts absolutely. Not if the man in power is free of evil and is willing to sacrifice all of who he is even unto death. And, btw, Christianity originated from a radical group whose views were on the fringe. Even now, true Christians who uphold the Bible and don't go along with the societal views are considered fringe people.
Forever Silent Posted July 24, 2012 Posted July 24, 2012 Not if the man in power is free of evil and is willing to sacrifice all of who he is even unto death. And, btw, Christianity originated from a radical group whose views were on the fringe. Even now, true Christians who uphold the Bible and don't go along with the societal views are considered fringe people. According to Christianity, maybe moreso Catholicisim, there could only be one such man who be free of evil and sacrifice all of who he is even until death...... Therefore......religion is power. Its power is absolute. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.
Feelin Frisky Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I agree with you on a certain level. I would just add that Jesus repeatedly made it known that the issue wasn't what he DID, but who he WAS. I don't know how many times he asked people this question: "Who do you say that I am?" Jesus did not speak English. Whatever Jesus said was first translated into Greek, then Latin, then Old English--and Old English is like a whole different language. This means you have to trust every person in all of these translations who were ALL paid by religious patrons who had agendas to convey absolutely perfect translations regardless of the wants of the people who paid them. I therefore NEVER put any stock in anything Jesus is said to have said. I put ALL of my respect in what he apparently DID. I discount all the miracles because I think they cheapen the story and subtract from the impact when you look at the story as a human phenomenon (not a super-natural passion play). What you SEE (rather than hear) is courage, resolve, clarity, acceptance, fellowship. The guts and righteousness to go into the great temple and shame the establishment for "selling salvation" (scribes, pharisees, tax collectors) is a timeless message where it is not necessary to know what each word is--the action is as righteous today as it was at any time. The Roman Empire co-opted Jesus and went to work do exactly the opposite of what Jesus stood for in action--selling indulgences, using the confessional for espionage to be used in dirty dealings, soaking the poor to build up wealth which went into idols like golden crucifixes and the finest gear for cardinals and the pope. Today's American televangelists and these charlatans that run those super-churches live in the lap of luxury selling false hope and perverted messages which use Jesus instead of honoring Jesus. I don't mean to be contentious or contrary but I think the deeds ARE what's most important and the personalities and the verbiage secondary or tertiary. Time, language and secret agendas have obscured some of the meaning of Jesus but the courage to stand alone for what's right despite the odds shines through. 1
M30USA Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 You are wrong. Jesus spoke Aramaic. We still have the original manuscripts from as early as 60 AD in Aramaic and Greek.
Zaphod B Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I think Paul gave Christianity a bad name. He warped a lot of Christ teachings. He promoted intolerance with his sexism, mysogony and anti semitism. Most churches tend to focus more on Paul's teachings than Jesus. Nevertheless, you can't absolve Jesus of blame. He was arrogant, self-righteous and demonised many of those who were different to him. Christians follow his example in that area.
M30USA Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I think Paul gave Christianity a bad name. He warped a lot of Christ teachings. He promoted intolerance with his sexism, mysogony and anti semitism. Most churches tend to focus more on Paul's teachings than Jesus. Nevertheless, you can't absolve Jesus of blame. He was arrogant, self-righteous and demonised many of those who were different to him. Christians follow his example in that area. If you are God and without sin, there is no such thing as being arrogant and self-righteous. Those are from a human perspective. And I recall him washing his disciples' feet and saying that the last shall be first and the first shall be last; and how the Son of Man is the greatest because he is the servant of all. You see? A human tries to become the greatest by rising to the top. Jesus was the greatest for being the lowest.
Zaphod B Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) If you are God and without sin, there is no such thing as being arrogant and self-righteous. Those are from a human perspective. And I recall him washing his disciples' feet and saying that the last shall be first and the first shall be last; and how the Son of Man is the greatest because he is the servant of all. You see? A human tries to become the greatest by rising to the top. Jesus was the greatest for being the lowest. You are presuming Jesus was God in human form. When I look at him now, I see a man who was deluded, nothing more. Possibly even a con artist. Either that or the stories are exagerated or even fictional. And take a look at his disciples. One denied him, another doubted him and another betrayed him. That doesn't sounds like the acts of men who rubbed shoulders with the son of God and witnessed the amazing miracles the gospels portray. It sounds like men who doubted that Jesus was divine. Sure, the stories say Jesus did humble things, but what strikes me a lot about Jesus was his intolerence towards those who believed different things to him. They were all just flagged away as fools and evil doers. One of his more imfamous quotes was "If you are not for me you are against me." Paranoia at its worst and a classic example of intolerence... not to mention a logical fallacy which one would not expect from a God being. It shows a serious lack of understanding about how we as humans view things. It's like he's saying "how dare you think differently to me!" One thing i have learned over the last 10 years or so is that we all think differently and we all have difference personalities. This affects the way we view the world. It affects what we need as human beings. Witches, homosexuals, Pharasees, Gentiles, Muslims, etc... just because they believe differently does not make them evil. I would expect a God would have a better understanding of the differences in human beings than what Jesus did. Edited July 25, 2012 by Zaphod B 3
writergal Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Well here it goes again lol! Time to get the microwave popcorn out.
Fugu Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Christianity is fine at home or in their cathedrals, but leave it there. Once you all begin trying to using spiritual belief to change laws or to influence the education of children, that's it, the gloves are off. I'm too old to just keep my mouth shut, and I just don't care as much if feelings get hurt. Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of other religions offend me when they try to force me to live in a world that is based on nothing more than old epic tales. 7
writergal Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Christianity is fine at home or in their cathedrals, but leave it there. Once you all begin trying to using spiritual belief to change laws or to influence the education of children, that's it, the gloves are off. I'm too old to just keep my mouth shut, and I just don't care as much if feelings get hurt. Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of other religions offend me when they try to force me to live in a world that is based on nothing more than old epic tales. Right on, Fugu (notice, I didn't say Amen)! 1
Forever Silent Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Christianity is fine at home or in their cathedrals, but leave it there. Once you all begin trying to using spiritual belief to change laws or to influence the education of children, that's it, the gloves are off. I'm too old to just keep my mouth shut, and I just don't care as much if feelings get hurt. Christians, Muslims, Jews, and members of other religions offend me when they try to force me to live in a world that is based on nothing more than old epic tales. Dude but epic tales are so awesome. Real life sometime is so blands. Who would not want to believe that giants once walked the earth. I find that idea to be quite fascinating. The veracity of the claim might be questionable, but still it is a though-provoking assertion.
M30USA Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Right on, Fugu (notice, I didn't say Amen)! Thats not what the early colonialists and the majority of founding fathers believed. Look up the Old Deluder Satan Act of the 1600s. You will find that your own view is but a blip and exception to our history and didn't come about until the 1960s.
YellowShark Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Well all religions have issues that I find unappealing. But since Christianity is the topic here's a few solid reasons: 1) Christianity worships a dead (but coming back soon!) Jewish day-laborer. That's pretty wacky. 2) Christians believe in a book that has so many unbelievable and frankly impossible stories that you must have left your brain at home to follow such ridiculous tales. 3) Christians don't believe in evolution which can be proven beyond all reasonable doubt. 4) Christians believe in a promise of "eternal life" which in over 2000 years has never been documented or witnessed by anyone. (Except in their book of fairy tales.) 5) Christian believe the entire universe was created just for us humans by a magical mystical super being who has never proven his existence. I could go on and on but why bother? I will just be labled a heretic and run out of town by the Christian folk waving their pitchforks. 2
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