Villainizing the Ex

[sleepie]

Sometimes I think that my xMM actually loved me (just not enough). That he, too, got swept away in it all, and it happened before we knew it, and the next thing we knew we were in a situation we hadn't expected. Sometimes I think he believed what he said when he said he loved me.

 

Other times I think he was a narcissistic douchebag who used me for his own validation and need for ego-stroking. He was using me, playing me, toying with me. He would have kept me on the string for as long as possible--regardless of my feelings--as long as I continued to meet his need to be adored. And, in the end, the reason he pulled away was, simply, because I refused to be his puppet anymore.

 

Of those two different viewpoints, I find it's easier for me to think of him as a villain. I don't know which one is true, and I guess I don't really care. Not now, at least. I'd rather just think "screw you" and move on.

 

So what do you guys think? Would you rather believe he really loved you? Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?

[Silly_Girl]

So what do you guys think? Would you rather believe he really loved you? Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?

 

Could be both?!

[woinlove]

Sometimes I think that my xMM actually loved me (just not enough). That he, too, got swept away in it all, and it happened before we knew it, and the next thing we knew we were in a situation we hadn't expected. Sometimes I think he believed what he said when he said he loved me.

 

Other times I think he was a narcissistic douchebag who used me for his own validation and need for ego-stroking. He was using me, playing me, toying with me. He would have kept me on the string for as long as possible--regardless of my feelings--as long as I continued to meet his need to be adored. And, in the end, the reason he pulled away was, simply, because I refused to be his puppet anymore.

 

Of those two different viewpoints, I find it's easier for me to think of him as a villain. I don't know which one is true, and I guess I don't really care. Not now, at least. I'd rather just think "screw you" and move on.

 

So what do you guys think? Would you rather believe he really loved you? Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?

 

Once you have moved on, it won't matter. I came to see xMM as a somewhat immature, broken man, who has some positive traits but is not good at long-term relationships. I ended things because I began to see this, but with time, it became even clearer to me.

 

Since there is usually no way of knowing for sure, xMM may not even know himself for sure, I think whatever helps one move on, is fine. There often are some feelings one might associate with love (but could be obsession, infatuation, neediness, wanting to feel a certain way) and there often is also selfishness, immaturity, rationalization, something broken or lacking within. I say focus on whichever part helps you move on, because it doesn't really matter since you are not his therapist or his spouse.

 

ETA - as to what I would rather believe, well not that it is love, because love is a whole lot better than this. For a broken person, this could be love, but love can be much more wonderful, positive, meaningful, lasting, supporting and make you wake up every morning, decade after decade, feeling blessed.

Edited July 24, 2012 by woinlove

[skywriter]

Of those two different viewpoints, I find it's easier for me to think of him as a villain. I don't know which one is true, and I guess I don't really care. Not now, at least. I'd rather just think "screw you" and move on.

 

So what do you guys think? Would you rather believe he really loved you? Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?

 

I'm at the screw you and move on point myself. Not that I care if he is a self centered jerk, which I believe he is, this is for his enabling ,( turn a blind eye, you can tell me the truth but I will side with him anyway,) wife to deal with.

[jwi71]

Sometimes I think that my xMM actually loved me (just not enough).

 

Not enough to do what?

[hermione08]

I'd rather think he's a jerk, which is probably true, otherwise he wouldn't have lied to his wife for so long.

He's a weak, self centered, cowardly man.

Since I still love him, there's also something wrong with me though .... :)

[frozensprouts]

All those emotions that you see as negative are normal parts of any relationship ending although I think they are more pronounced when it's an affair. I find it strange that you would not think that they aren't and I gotta wonder if you think you won't feel them if/when you and your mm end it. It's stages that one has to go through.

 

Also finding out that you've been lied to does tend to make one think of the other person as a villain, what is wrong with that? Perhaps you seeing lying as just another weakness? I see lying as much worse, it's on my list as a bad character defect, not just a weakness.

 

On looking back at a neutral stand, yes you get to the point but one must go through the other stages, it's normal.

 

maybe the villianizing allows someone to begin healing by seeing the negative points about a person, thus making it easier to detach...

 

maybe it also depend upon the way the relationship ended, as well as any truths learned during the breakup. Someone in this situation may stop making excuses and accepting the lies they were being told...

 

sometimes, someone in acute pain just needs to lash out because they are hurt and angry...this seems like a totally normal response

[nofool4u]

Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?

 

Well lets see. He was lying and cheating on his wife, he is a dog. What do you think?

[Silly_Girl]

I think if you villainise them too much it will go full circle and bite you on the ar$e. You are forced to question your judgement, your actions, your own psyche if you build them up in to a big ugly charicature. And that can get out of hand.

 

People lie, people fall for their lies. It happens.

 

If the relationship was SO AWFUL, and he was AN OGRE, without a shred of PERSONALITY or KINDNESS then you'd never have stuck with it. So acknowledging his flaws can be helpful but there's no point in taking it to an extreme, in my view.

 

In most ended relationships there was good and there was bad. Very few people are ALL bad, very few people have NO friends or family that love them. So I think anger can be healthy (necessary?) for a period but after that a balance is desirable.

[Furious]

Sometimes I think that my xMM actually loved me (just not enough). That he, too, got swept away in it all, and it happened before we knew it, and the next thing we knew we were in a situation we hadn't expected. Sometimes I think he believed what he said when he said he loved me.

 

Other times I think he was a narcissistic douchebag who used me for his own validation and need for ego-stroking. He was using me, playing me, toying with me. He would have kept me on the string for as long as possible--regardless of my feelings--as long as I continued to meet his need to be adored. And, in the end, the reason he pulled away was, simply, because I refused to be his puppet anymore.

 

Of those two different viewpoints, I find it's easier for me to think of him as a villain. I don't know which one is true, and I guess I don't really care. Not now,

at least. I'd rather just think "screw you" and move on.

So what do you guys think? Would you rather believe he really loved you?

Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?[/quote

 

 

 

 

I find your reasoning to be hypocritical if he is cheating on his wife and you are cheating on your husband, perhaps you are both villains, to label him as such would also apply to you.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Furious

[onthefence210]

I think villainizing the xmm or any ex is a way to cope with guilt, sadness, anger etc. for some it's easier to blame as we all do. I had to get to a place emotionally where I had to take responsibility for my role in my A, the lying I did both by omission and when questioned. The hardest part for me was the acceptance of knowing that I first allowed myself to stay in an emotionally abusive marriage for so long and then choose to have an A instead of leaving. I still struggle with regretting the A because it was a place that I learned a lot about myself. Things I never could in a marriage I choose to stay in. Yes I kno, I could have left and found out on my own, in hind sight you aren't thinking those things.

 

I have more anger now toward myself, to have compromised my own values and beliefs. Forgiveness is a very hard thing. I can't villainize xmm, he was no better then I was at the time. I have no idea whether he ever told his W the truth, after painting me as the villain to his W, but I have let that go. I think if I knew she cared then I might have just come out and told her, and if I knew he was working toward a better marriage, I think the truth is important but neither of them wanted the truth to be told. So it wasn't my place to force feed it. They like their reality just the way it is.

 

So I think whatever it takes to get you thru the end as it will come most likely. I think it's more important to get the word out to people but women in general who have a harder time compartmentalizing that A will f u up not matter how they end. My biggest fear is telling the truth about myself. I've gone as far as calling all my friends and asking why they are still my friends after my A. I think it's because I am doing the best I can to hold myself accountable and living a more honest life.

[MissBee]

Sometimes I think that my xMM actually loved me (just not enough). That he, too, got swept away in it all, and it happened before we knew it, and the next thing we knew we were in a situation we hadn't expected. Sometimes I think he believed what he said when he said he loved me.

 

Other times I think he was a narcissistic douchebag who used me for his own validation and need for ego-stroking. He was using me, playing me, toying with me. He would have kept me on the string for as long as possible--regardless of my feelings--as long as I continued to meet his need to be adored. And, in the end, the reason he pulled away was, simply, because I refused to be his puppet anymore.

 

Of those two different viewpoints, I find it's easier for me to think of him as a villain. I don't know which one is true, and I guess I don't really care. Not now, at least. I'd rather just think "screw you" and move on.

 

So what do you guys think? Would you rather believe he really loved you? Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?

 

 

I think it's normal in the beginning when you're just trying to get over it to have some extreme feelings. For me, I'd gravitate between thinking he was the biggest douche alive to putting him on a pedestal and feeling like no other man would surpass him and I just needed him back or I'd never be happy again. I think feelings of anger and hatred and thinking he was a douche won though; I thought those things a lot more

 

Anger does help you move forward. It gives you a reason not to hold out hope. It's easier to be determined to move on if you're angry than if you're pining or you've put the person on a pedestal.

 

However, as time goes by and you become more removed from the situation, you come to a more balanced perspective I've found. For me now that I'm long over it, I no longer see him as completely horrible neither is he on a pedestal. I see the flaws, I see things about him I just couldn't see when I was in love and when I was hurting from the heartbreak, and I can assess the good and bad about it. I've forgiven him and myself and amidst all he did wrong, I just don't feel very angry or strongly about it anymore.

[MissBee]

All those emotions that you see as negative are normal parts of any relationship ending although I think they are more pronounced when it's an affair. I find it strange that you would not think that they aren't and I gotta wonder if you think you won't feel them if/when you and your mm end it. It's stages that one has to go through.

 

Also finding out that you've been lied to does tend to make one think of the other person as a villain, what is wrong with that? Perhaps you seeing lying as just another weakness? I see lying as much worse, it's on my list as a bad character defect, not just a weakness.

 

On looking back at a neutral stand, yes you get to the point but one must go through the other stages, it's normal.

 

True.

 

If years later you're either still pining or still very angry, that's not healthy. But in the initial healing process you usually go through those stages. Especially if things ended because of a dday or the person disappeared or didn't come through on their promises or insert any other non-mutual ending. It's just part and parcel of the grieving process. But overtime, that roller coaster of emotions calms down and you can: 1. see your part in it better and accept your role and responsibility (that was how I knew when I was 95% done healing, because instead of him being the one who was all wrong, I started to accept how I put myself into the situation and saw what I needed to learn) and 2. look at things with a more balanced outlook of the good and bad.

[Radagast]

Sometimes I think that my xMM actually loved me (just not enough). That he, too, got swept away in it all, and it happened before we knew it, and the next thing we knew we were in a situation we hadn't expected. Sometimes I think he believed what he said when he said he loved me.

 

Other times I think he was a narcissistic douchebag who used me for his own validation and need for ego-stroking. He was using me, playing me, toying with me. He would have kept me on the string for as long as possible--regardless of my feelings--as long as I continued to meet his need to be adored. And, in the end, the reason he pulled away was, simply, because I refused to be his puppet anymore.

 

Of those two different viewpoints, I find it's easier for me to think of him as a villain. I don't know which one is true, and I guess I don't really care. Not now, at least. I'd rather just think "screw you" and move on.

 

So what do you guys think? Would you rather believe he really loved you? Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?

 

I think the healthy, mature perspective allows for both. That he was a flawed human being who may have meant well but ultimately "used" you (with your consent) for his own ends, as he no doubt feels you "used" him.

 

But on the way it may be necessary to villainise the ex if it helps to restore balance. I know in my first marriage I spent decades apologising for my wife, explaining away her unacceptable behaviour and trying to convince the rest of the world that she was not a bad person, just a hurt one. It took a great deal of work in counselling for me to accept that she was a bad person, that her damage had led to her treating people appallingly and that she did not get a free ride simply because she'd had an unhappy childhood. And that by covering for her, I was helping absolve her of the responsibility she needed to take for how she treated others. Being able to say, my wife didn't love me, my wife didn't respect me, my wife was a bad wife, was very difficult after decades of claiming the reverse. But it was necessary, in order to get beyond to a more balanced view which admits that yes, she was morally culpable in many ways, but I allowed that.

 

When you admit that he was selfish and an emotional vampire you are able to examine why you went along with that for so long. Until you get to that point, if you see him only as a well-meaning but overwhelmed person, you will not be able to take ownership of your own enabling behaviour in the relationship to determine what you'd do differently "next time".

 

Well, that's my counsellor's reasoning, anyway.

[woinlove]

True.

 

If years later you're either still pining or still very angry, that's not healthy. But in the initial healing process you usually go through those stages. Especially if things ended because of a dday or the person disappeared or didn't come through on their promises or insert any other non-mutual ending. It's just part and parcel of the grieving process. But overtime, that roller coaster of emotions calms down and you can: 1. see your part in it better and accept your role and responsibility (that was how I knew when I was 95% done healing, because instead of him being the one who was all wrong, I started to accept how I put myself into the situation and saw what I needed to learn) and 2. look at things with a more balanced outlook of the good and bad.

 

I think the time element or stages that you bring up is important. We've certainly seem some good rants on the forum shortly after a breakup and I think the anger can be useful at that time. Later it dissipates and one has more of a perspective of the good and the bad, even if in some cases it was mostly bad.

[sleepie]

Thank you for the perspectives. As always, many of you here are rational, reasonable, and logical. Which I appreciate. And wish I could be.

 

I am a villain, yes, in some ways because of what I did to my H. Betrayal of someone who loves and trusts you is a horrible thing.

 

But xMM betrayed not just his wife, but me as well. I never told xMM that I didn't love my spouse, never said I only loved xMM, never said H and I didn't have sex, never said H was a bad guy and I was in a bad M. I never lied to xMM. But these are ALL things xMM said to me, things I don't think are true now. So he was a "villain" to both me and his BS.

 

Does that make what he did worse than what I did? No. But it still makes me angry.

[woinlove]

Thank you for the perspectives. As always, many of you here are rational, reasonable, and logical. Which I appreciate. And wish I could be.

 

I am a villain, yes, in some ways because of what I did to my H. Betrayal of someone who loves and trusts you is a horrible thing.

 

But xMM betrayed not just his wife, but me as well. I never told xMM that I didn't love my spouse, never said I only loved xMM, never said H and I didn't have sex, never said H was a bad guy and I was in a bad M. I never lied to xMM. But these are ALL things xMM said to me, things I don't think are true now. So he was a "villain" to both me and his BS.

 

Does that make what he did worse than what I did? No. But it still makes me angry.

 

Well, that all sounds pretty rational.

[jwi71]

I am a villain, yes, in some ways because of what I did to my H. Betrayal of someone who loves and trusts you is a horrible thing.

 

In what other ways are you the villain?

 

But xMM betrayed not just his wife, but me as well. I never told xMM that I didn't love my spouse, never said I only loved xMM, never said H and I didn't have sex, never said H was a bad guy and I was in a bad M. I never lied to xMM. But these are ALL things xMM said to me, things I don't think are true now. So he was a "villain" to both me and his BS.

 

Nope.

Sorry but you don't get play he is worse because of what he did or didn't do - or said or didn't say. Nor do you get to say you are the more righteous by virtue of what you did or didn't say.

 

All of life is relative and you are using the wrong measuring stick.

The litmus test isn't your "xMM and his W" it's you and your H.

 

You are NOT the victim nor is he (your xMM) the villain.

 

The toxicity once shared has ended.

 

Now I understand the desire to demonize the other but it often is used to mask and justify our OWN failures. Focus less on him and more on you.

 

After all, you were a willing conspirator. You went into this eyes wide open.

 

Just recently you fretted over lack of contact.

 

Your xMM didn't do that you did.

 

Does that make what he did worse than what I did? No. But it still makes me angry.

 

Angry?

Over what?

What specifically did he do or not do to earn this anger?

 

Something isn't making sense to me.

[sleepie]

Sorry but you don't get play he is worse because of what he did or didn't do - or said or didn't say. Nor do you get to say you are the more righteous by virtue of what you did or didn't say.

 

I didn't say that. In fact, I specifically said that what he did was no worse than what I did.

 

In short terms:

 

xMM lied to me and his W.

I lied to my H.

 

From this I say that xMM lied to TWO people. I lied to ONE.

 

One thing that can't be disputed is numbers, and TWO is a bigger number than ONE.

 

Does it justify what I did? H***, no. Does it make what I did better or worse? No. Is he a bigger douche than me because he lied to two people instead of just one? Maybe. I mean, which you get into that level of douchebaggery, it all kind of runs together anyway.

 

But it makes me angry that he lied to me, and I think that anger is justified. Had he been as honest with me as I was with him, then he would have saved me a lot of heartache and pain.

 

I know what some of you will say. What did you expect from a cheater anyway? Honesty?!? Oh, you silly fool of a woman.

 

And yeah, you're right.

[sleepie]

Just recently you fretted over lack of contact.

 

Your xMM didn't do that you did.

 

LOL Well, I wouldn't say I "fretted over lack of contact." I'd describe it more as "was confused about my sense of loss because I felt I didn't deserve to feel that way."

 

*sigh* Maybe it's just hard to explain how I feel on a forum because written communication isn't my strong suit. Or maybe it's just because I'm (admittedly) a jumble of emotions right now that I can't quite figure out, though I'm trying. I do feel sad, confused, depressed, angry, guilty, frustrated, and annoyed right now. So understand that everything I say is coming from a mixed bag of feelings that I'm trying to sort through and process.

[carhill]

So what do you guys think?

 

That reflection over time will provide healthy answers

 

Would you rather believe he really loved you?

That's one reasonable conclusion

Or would you rather think he was a selfish, self-centered jerk?

That's another reasonable conclusion.

 

There are many reasonable conclusions or combination thereof which can be reached through reflection. Time allows for acceptance of these conclusions and processing of the emotions attendant to them.

 

I would suggest doing this alone or with a professional and not involving another person into your emotional mixer during this process. This respects the value of another's sincere interest and/or love.

 

As I've seen often, reflecting upon interactions with MW's, it's entirely possible that he liked that you loved him. Nothing more, nothing less. Some people's psyches work that way. It's all good information.

[woinlove]

That reflection over time will provide healthy answers

 

That's one reasonable conclusion That's another reasonable conclusion.

 

There are many reasonable conclusions or combination thereof which can be reached through reflection. Time allows for acceptance of these conclusions and processing of the emotions attendant to them.

 

I would suggest doing this alone or with a professional and not involving another person into your emotional mixer during this process. This respects the value of another's sincere interest and/or love.

 

As I've seen often, reflecting upon interactions with MW's, it's entirely possible that he liked that you loved him. Nothing more, nothing less. Some people's psyches work that way. It's all good information.

 

Re bolded, yes, some even love that you love them and it can seem like they love you until you examine their actions a bit more.

[jwi71]

I didn't say that. In fact, I specifically said that what he did was no worse than what I did.

 

In short terms:

 

xMM lied to me and his W.

I lied to my H.

 

From this I say that xMM lied to TWO people. I lied to ONE.

 

Oh I understand sleepie.

You say one isn't worse than the other - then you promptly tell me how he's worse, because two is bigger than one.

You do see this no?

It's a justification and minimizing YOU.

Don't do it.

 

It's not about you vs him. It's about you and ultimately you and your H.

 

Does it justify what I did? H***, no. Does it make what I did better or worse? No. Is he a bigger douche than me because he lied to two people instead of just one? Maybe. I mean, which you get into that level of douchebaggery, it all kind of runs together anyway.

 

I agree and as such the biggest douchebag is immaterial.

What matters is you, your H and the internal processes that led you here.

And it has exactly NOTHING to do with MOM.

 

But it makes me angry that he lied to me, and I think that anger is justified. Had he been as honest with me as I was with him, then he would have saved me a lot of heartache and pain.

 

What did he lie about that caused you heartache and pain?

 

Was this truly an EA that had zero chance of each of you riding off into the sunset together? Is that the path he "failed to deliver on"?

[nofool4u]

But xMM betrayed not just his wife, but me as well.

 

Wrong. You aren't the one with the commitment to him, were committed to someone else, and knew he was married.

 

The only ones betrayed in this situation is MM's wife, and your husband.

 

 

I never told xMM that I didn't love my spouse, never said I only loved xMM, never said H and I didn't have sex, never said H was a bad guy and I was in a bad M. I never lied to xMM. But these are ALL things xMM said to me, things I don't think are true now. So he was a "villain" to both me and his BS.

 

No, he was a villain to his wife and your husband. You knew he was married. Honesty isn't something that cheaters get to complain about.

[nofool4u]

I didn't say that. In fact, I specifically said that what he did was no worse than what I did.

 

In short terms:

 

xMM lied to me and his W.

I lied to my H.

 

From this I say that xMM lied to TWO people. I lied to ONE.

 

One thing that can't be disputed is numbers, and TWO is a bigger number than ONE.

 

Really? You are going to count who lied more? Really?

 

 

Does it justify what I did? H***, no. Does it make what I did better or worse? No.

 

Then whats the point of counting? Cheaters keeping score is rather silly.

 

 

Is he a bigger douche than me because he lied to two people instead of just one? Maybe.

 

The answer is actually no. Come on, "I'm a liar, but, but, he is s bigger liar"

Really?

 

 

I mean, which you get into that level of douchebaggery, it all kind of runs together anyway.

 

Douchebaggery is douchebagger, whether its ONE or TWO.

 

 

But it makes me angry that he lied to me, and I think that anger is justified. Had he been as honest with me as I was with him, then he would have saved me a lot of heartache and pain.

 

Cheaters are liars by default, and cheaters don't get the luxury of crying foul.