zengirl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 The problem is that men don't screen for character themselves...or if they do, it doesn't go that far beyond the 'slut' test... which really isn't as valuable a metric as it used to be... not to mention a crappy double standard. Men mostly screen on age, looks, and 'fun'.... so they wouldn't have the first clue on how to adjust their behavior to be more attractive to a woman who screens mostly on character. I agree that plenty of women screen based on some pretty superficial stuff too... but I'm not interested in them. Can't really give you a list. I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I think this is a really judgmental and terrible thing to say about an entire gender. I also thoroughly disagree with it! Most of my male friends DO screen for character - and it's not about a "slut test" at all, which shows very little real character anyway. Liking sex is not, on its own, a character flaw. (Engaging in consistently lewd behavior or destructive casual sex would be, but that'd be a case-by-case thing.) They look for women who are kind, caring, compassionate, loyal, forgiving, graceful, interesting, intelligent, true to their word. . . all kinds of great qualities. I would say that men may look MORE for compassion than women even and that most men value a woman who has nurturing energy as well --- all of those are character traits and great ones, IMO. Whereas women may look a bit more for ambition and direction than men do and less for nurturing. But other than that, I see no gender patterns really. I would think long and hard about whether or not you could truly pass many a quality man's character test. From what your male friends are saying, there is perhaps an area that even you could improve, RR. I'm not saying you have poor character -- but one of those character qualities men look for (that nurturing, forgiving female energy - I'm not talking about being passive or walked over, but just that yin energy and empathy) seems to be one that if you have (which past your walls, you probably do), you do not always demonstrate to others and keep hidden, probably out of fear.
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 I know this must be the most fascinating brain candy for folks here... But I'm tired of explaining myself... All I know is that whatever I might have felt for the guy before is pretty much dead now. About the need for restraint... it has nothing to do with him. I like sex too. I just know that if I go there before we've established an emotional bond and I before I know the guy I bit, then he is out... no different than if we'd never gone there in the first place... Just how I am. So, yea. I was disappointed. Am disappointed. I'll get over it.
zengirl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) For what it's worth, RR, I went over to Hubby's house for our 4th date - no sex (or even requests for it) or anything close. Just cooking & Netflix. Sometimes you just want to save money and make a good home-cooked meal. Went over to the BF before that on the 3rd date - cooking and a movie then too - and no sex or escalation in that area. I still don't get the correlation between being invited over and thoughts of sex, unless there were other factors that prompted this. It seems natural to have some "in" dates after a few "out" dates just for the quiet and savings it affords. Not saying this guy didn't want to make a move - maybe he did - but if you always think that, it's a bit odd in terms of what I've experienced. Truly. I've always been eager to see a man's house to better get to know him and assess his character and find more trustworthy men invite you over early to show they have nothing to hide and make you feel welcome! ETA: The boyfriend I had who has always had to be IN LOVE to have sex and wanted us to wait months (we waited at least 3 months, as I recall, and that's of seeing each other 4-5 times a week and even having sleep overs - no funny business at all beyond kissing, holding hands - not 'anything but' type stuff) actually had me over on our 2nd date, before I knew about his "in love" policy. Truly. Correlating sex with a movie may happen and perhaps I'm naive due to my experiences, but I just don't think it's a given. Edited July 25, 2012 by zengirl
Imajerk17 Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I know this must be the most fascinating brain candy for folks here... But I'm tired of explaining myself... All I know is that whatever I might have felt for the guy before is pretty much dead now. About the need for restraint... it has nothing to do with him. I like sex too. I just know that if I go there before we've established an emotional bond and I before I know the guy I bit, then he is out... no different than if we'd never gone there in the first place... Just how I am. So, yea. I was disappointed. Am disappointed. I'll get over it. I actually think you made the RIGHT decision by not pursuing things further with this guy AND that he showed you some red flags. But that was because of OTHER stuff he said to you on the date. NOT asking you over to his place for a 3rd date. You have every right to not want to go over to a guy's house on Date 3. And the right guy WILL respect your decision. But just because a guy invited you over to his place on Date 3, that does not mean that he is not the right guy.... From your comments to drseussgirl and the above, you come across as a judgemental person who interprets others' behavior in the worst possible context.
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 I haven't read the whole thread yet, but I think this is a really judgmental and terrible thing to say about an entire gender. FINE! Do I have to say it? SOME men then... give me a break. I also thoroughly disagree with it! I do too. The men I know and are friends with DO screen for character. Most of my male friends DO screen for character - and it's not about a "slut test" at all, which shows very little real character anyway. Liking sex is not, on its own, a character flaw. (Engaging in consistently lewd behavior or destructive casual sex would be, but that'd be a case-by-case thing.) They look for women who are kind, caring, compassionate, loyal, forgiving, graceful, interesting, intelligent, true to their word. . . all kinds of great qualities. Great! And if he's pushing for 3rd date sex, then I assume he's not really putting that much effort into finding the above.... Which is my point. Just my opinion. I would say that men may look MORE for compassion than women even and that most men value a woman who has nurturing energy as well --- all of those are character traits and great ones, IMO. I agree with this... but where I disagree is that too many seek compassion and nurturing for their bad behavior... instead of being accountable. I would think long and hard about whether or not you could truly pass many a quality man's character test. From what your male friends are saying, there is perhaps an area that even you could improve, RR. I'm not saying you have poor character -- but one of those character qualities men look for (that nurturing, forgiving female energy - I'm not talking about being passive or walked over, but just that yin energy and empathy) seems to be one that if you have (which past your walls, you probably do), you do not always demonstrate to others and keep hidden, probably out of fear. I've passed many 'quality' men's character tests... They are my friends and mentors. Men in the dating world?? Many of them expect something for nothing. Which is (I suspect) the reason most of them are single. I've said it here before... Men want compassion and empathy from women... Sure. We all want that. I want that too. However, when they want early sex AND those qualities?? What they are asking women to do is take all the emotional risks so they don't have to.
xxoo Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I've passed many 'quality' men's character tests... They are my friends and mentors. But you've said you wouldn't date them. And from your opening post, it seems they wouldn't date you. So you can do friendship, but struggle with dating. Do they struggle with dating?
miss_jaclynrae Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 FINE! Do I have to say it? SOME men then... give me a break. I do too. The men I know and are friends with DO screen for character. Great! And if he's pushing for 3rd date sex, then I assume he's not really putting that much effort into finding the above.... Which is my point. Just my opinion. I agree with this... but where I disagree is that too many seek compassion and nurturing for their bad behavior... instead of being accountable. I've passed many 'quality' men's character tests... They are my friends and mentors. Men in the dating world?? Many of them expect something for nothing. Which is (I suspect) the reason most of them are single. I've said it here before... Men want compassion and empathy from women... Sure. We all want that. I want that too. However, when they want early sex AND those qualities?? What they are asking women to do is take all the emotional risks so they don't have to. Why do you keep saying "pushing"? Talk about making a bigger deal out of nothing. He never "pushed" you. He asked. Big difference sweetheart. Ever thought the reason why men you are friends with are the ones who you feel are keepers and actually screen? It is because you are not someone they would consider dating. Why aren't you dating one of them if they are so great? It is probably because they don't WANT to date you. Now of course I could be wrong, but I just find it odd that you have all these friends and mentors who are amazing, but every other man out there is just wanting sex and you are just SO great at picking those ones out. False. You are great at assuming... and we both know what assuming does.
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 I'm not suggesting, you not wait. I was trying to point out the fact that your way of reacting to have sex to early is not normal and kind of disturbing. It's perfectly normal for alot of men. Alot of men find it very easy not to bond with women they have sex with. It's not normal, because it's been proven physical closeness increases emotional bonding. Only when an emotional bond has started to form beforehand. This is why most people freak out when having sex to early. They had sex and started forming an emotional bond with someone, and then they worry what the other person thinks of them, because they don't want to lose that person. This is why women freak out. You don't see alot of men freak out here about emotional bonding after sex... especially if they are having sex early. Your response is the extreme opposite. You're repulsed, and don't even see the person as a person anymore (the disturbing part). That's not a normal response for either gender. Really? I'd recommend you read more of the posts by men. In order to have sex with someone you don't have an emotional bond with, it is practically a requirement not to see them as a person. Which is why I don't do it... and why I screen out men who make a habit of it (casual sex).
miss_jaclynrae Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Really? I'd recommend you read more of the posts by men. In order to have sex with someone you don't have an emotional bond with, it is practically a requirement not to see them as a person. Which is why I don't do it... and why I screen out men who make a habit of it (casual sex). You need help OP. Not in a mean way, but sheesh.... counseling could do you some good. There must be some reason for your twisted views.
Drseussgrrl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I'm confused. You say you are entertaining the thought of having sex casually, as a lifestyle, but then condemn those who do it in the next breath.
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) But you've said you wouldn't date them. And from your opening post, it seems they wouldn't date you. So you can do friendship, but struggle with dating. Do they struggle with dating? Most of them are married... as I would have been had I not made a bad choice for a husband years ago. The ones who are single, I wouldn't date because we have other things about our lives that make us incompatible... ... about the dating... I can't say I'm struggling with that, per se... If anything, I'm struggling with the invention of OLD, multi-dating, and the 3 date 'rule'... I've tried to adapt. The conclusion I came to is that I either keep going the way I'm currently going (getting to know men in groups and through friends) or just having casual sex and reserve emotional intimacy for family/friends. Edited July 25, 2012 by RedRobin
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 For what it's worth, RR, I went over to Hubby's house for our 4th date - no sex (or even requests for it) or anything close. Just cooking & Netflix. Sometimes you just want to save money and make a good home-cooked meal. Went over to the BF before that on the 3rd date - cooking and a movie then too - and no sex or escalation in that area. I still don't get the correlation between being invited over and thoughts of sex, unless there were other factors that prompted this. It seems natural to have some "in" dates after a few "out" dates just for the quiet and savings it affords. Not saying this guy didn't want to make a move - maybe he did - but if you always think that, it's a bit odd in terms of what I've experienced. Truly. I've always been eager to see a man's house to better get to know him and assess his character and find more trustworthy men invite you over early to show they have nothing to hide and make you feel welcome! ETA: The boyfriend I had who has always had to be IN LOVE to have sex and wanted us to wait months (we waited at least 3 months, as I recall, and that's of seeing each other 4-5 times a week and even having sleep overs - no funny business at all beyond kissing, holding hands - not 'anything but' type stuff) actually had me over on our 2nd date, before I knew about his "in love" policy. Truly. Correlating sex with a movie may happen and perhaps I'm naive due to my experiences, but I just don't think it's a given. Everytime I've been asked over to a guy's house (who I am dating), this is exactly what it means. Without exception. I'm not pulling this out of my back-side.
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 ok... well, I think we've gnawed on this bone long enough folks... We are circling back over the same old junk now...
zengirl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) FINE! Do I have to say it? SOME men then... give me a break. Of course you have to say "some" if you don't mean to denigrate an entire gender. I expect the same of men on this board. I'm sure some men and women don't screen for character, and some do. I don't see men as any less likely to screen for character than women, personally. I do too. The men I know and are friends with DO screen for character. Then why would you assume it's a rarer trait in men than women (which is what the post I quoted suggests - at BEST)? I would think carefully about your words and beliefs if you are truly seeking any kind of improvement in circumstances. Do you truly not feel you have room to improve on the area you chose to discuss? If not, then why discuss it? Great! And if he's pushing for 3rd date sex, then I assume he's not really putting that much effort into finding the above.... Which is my point. Sure, if a guy is "pushing" for anything or past any boundaries, I assume he's got some issues. Pushing is a bad thing. Wanting, requesting, being open to . . . these are all very different from pushing. I'm really confused in your story how it relates to an actual request for sex at all - the best I can tell (and I have caught up on the thread now) is the guy asked you over. Even if he had wanted or hoped for sex, personally, I'd never classify that as "pushing" or poor character, despite believing sex is something important that requires real intimacy and a committed relationship (for me, I mean). I think it's fine to want that kind of synergy and even think, "eh, not for me" if you get the vibe that he's eager for sex sooner than you are (though not a must, since most men will wait and respect boundaries, and many women are fine with that and even expect there to be some push-pull on that front first), but it's highly judgmental and overly critical to assume it's poor character if someone doesn't share your views of sexuality. To illustrate what I mean: Wanting synergy and saying, "I lost interest when I felt we didn't share similar views of sex and timing," would be a very different thing from judging a guy harshly on this, though it would seem to have a similar result. The difference would be in the way you come off and demonstrate your character. Just an example. I agree with this... but where I disagree is that too many seek compassion and nurturing for their bad behavior... instead of being accountable. No one wants to feel constantly criticized or judged by their partner. Period. Accountability is good, but only to a point. Taken to extremes, it can hinder intimacy IMO - that is the beauty of yin, it's ability to soothe and empathize rather than judge and categorize. That doesn't mean don't have boundaries. That doesn't mean don't recognize bad behavior. It means that you treat even bad behavior with compassion and always strive to see the holistic person. It doesn't mean staying with a jerkwad. It means accepting that no one is perfect. I'm sure there are some jerks who seek to take advantage of women, but I find that men of what I would consider very high character who treat others with respect have a very high tendency to seek a woman who is very nurturing. I do agree that something like that (nurturing, compassionate, empathetic) would be much higher on most men's lists than accountable, though that may also be there. I don't think that's a bad thing. It's higher on my list too. To err is human; to forgive, divine. I've passed many 'quality' men's character tests... They are my friends and mentors. Men in the dating world?? Many of them expect something for nothing. Which is (I suspect) the reason most of them are single. Quite a cynical view of the dating world. I'm not entirely sure of your age range, though I know many women in their late 30s dating men in their late 30s and 40s who can meet some quality, caring men. I'm not saying they're as abundant as they are when younger - neither are quality women. People are pairing off more and more as they age, which limits the pool for everyone. I suppose one could get cynical, but I'm not sure that's really a good 'character' choice in its own right. Depends on the character you are looking for, I suppose. Of course, unlike you, I see character a bit less as pass/fail and more complex. I've said it here before... Men want compassion and empathy from women... Sure. We all want that. I want that too. However, when they want early sex AND those qualities?? What they are asking women to do is take all the emotional risks so they don't have to. Personally, I don't get the obsession with sex, from you or from men who NEED it early (not the same thing as wanting or trying). The extreme view that sex should not even come up seems just as extreme as saying it must happen precisely on Date #3 and to come from the same places: FEAR. SCARCITY. CYNICISM. I'm not advising you or anyone else to entertain sex earlier than you'd like to. I'm not even advising you to still like a guy who you feel has a different attitude towards sex --- I'm just saying that respecting and empathizing with different viewpoints has a lot of value. Respecting a viewpoint or another person's desires and maintaining your own boundaries can be done at the same time, even if the viewpoint is contrary to yours. ETA: I find defense mechanisms to be of limited value. You seem to consider yours essential. I respect that and still think you seem like a good person, but disagree. I can say I'd never feel comfortable dating a man with defense mechanisms who was sitting in wait of my actions, observing and consciously judging me for quality. I don't think that's what you mean to do maybe, but it is how it sometimes comes off, RR. Considering how you come off may garner you improvements is all. Edited July 25, 2012 by zengirl 1
Lonely Ronin Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 It's perfectly normal for alot of men. Alot of men find it very easy not to bond with women they have sex with. Only when an emotional bond has started to form beforehand. Actually you are wrong on both counts. 1. This isn't a real research paper, but i have read several and this is pretty much inline with them. Your Brain On Sex | Reuniting 2. The PUA you are referring to, do form a bond to the other person. They are consciously fighting/ignoring it. The few that form no bond of any type are the psycho types. This is why women freak out. You don't see alot of men freak out here about emotional bonding after sex... especially if they are having sex early. Actually guys freak out about it a lot more than I think the average woman does. Really? I'd recommend you read more of the posts by men. lol, like I would let the view points of some of the crazy d-bags here change the way I think. In order to have sex with someone you don't have an emotional bond with, it is practically a requirement not to see them as a person. why don't you pole every one and find out....
Lonely Ronin Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Everytime I've been asked over to a guy's house (who I am dating), this is exactly what it means. Without exception. I'm not pulling this out of my back-side. Well, the guys you have dated don't speak for the other 3+ billion of us.
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 Zengirl, Most of this has been touched on upthread. Thanks for responding.
xxoo Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I can say I'd never feel comfortable dating a man with defense mechanisms who was sitting in wait of my actions ,, observing and consciously judging me for quality. I don't think that's what you mean to do maybe, but it is how it sometimes comes off, RR. Considering how you come off may garner you improvements is all. I think that is what your guy friends were trying to communicate in the frank discussion of the opening post. If all the guys you date seem invested in the "3 date rule", it may be because like attracts like--and that is their defense mechanism. Guys who are open and looking for real connection are out there, but may not see that potential with you due to the traits your friends pointed out.
zengirl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I think that is what your guy friends were trying to communicate in the frank discussion of the opening post. If all the guys you date seem invested in the "3 date rule", it may be because like attracts like--and that is their defense mechanism. Guys who are open and looking for real connection are out there, but may not see that potential with you due to the traits your friends pointed out. Yes, that is what I meant. As to your short message, RR, I don't see a lot of this addressed thoughtfully upthread, but MMV. Thank you for acknowledging my post, RR, and I won't belabor my points. All I will ask are two last things: 1. Isn't it odd that a thread about something your male friends had brought you to acknowledge in your own character became about the character flaws you find in others? 2. What does being critical of others in that way accomplish?
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 (edited) I answered both of these in my original post. My friend's thoughts and concerns were legitimate. I've addressed these concerns by trying to get to know men in groups or through friends. I've acknowledged that MY mistake with the man I'm talking about here is not taking more time to observe him BEFORE showing an interest in him. He's pushing for sex before he's gotten to know me... I'm not interested. So, whatever feelings I had for him are over. It's too bad, but that is how it goes. The lesson for me is to avoid showing romantic interest toward guys I don't know well OR just have casual sex. If you really read the whole thread, you'd have read that I have not done anything mean or disrespectful to him. Not at all. Not sure what point either of you are trying to make except you are just enjoying piling on and making random points about men and women. If you care to continue talking about male/female dating expectations, start your own thread. Edited July 25, 2012 by RedRobin
Heart Of A Lion Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I know that when I've done it (had sex early) I stopped caring about the guy practically immediately. Nothing he did made a difference after that. The guy becomes little more than a walking dildo... with the guy ending up feeling hurt and confused... and me dealing with his drama and BS from his friends. So, boring... for me. You seem like a very mean person. You show so much hate for men in your thread, that I don't understand why you got married multiple times. But I do understand why you got divorced. Because meanness like that kills love.
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 Guys who are open and looking for real connection are out there, but may not see that potential with you due to the traits your friends pointed out. Guys who are open and looking for a real connection don't push for sex before trust and intimacy are established... or do 'slut' tests. I end things with those who do... My friends have never criticized whom I end things with.
Author RedRobin Posted July 25, 2012 Author Posted July 25, 2012 You seem like a very mean person. You show so much hate for men in your thread, that I don't understand why you got married multiple times. But I do understand why you got divorced. Because meanness like that kills love. Interesting... The part you quoted is standard fare for alot of men. They do it all the time and are patted on the back for it. I've read some of your posts. You turn yourself all upside down for women who look a certain way. I don't treat men the way you seem to treat women... as only relationship material if they look a certain way. Do you screen for character? Yet you want to criticize me? Did you fail to read that I don't have casual sex? No, guess not. I don't have casual sex because, TBH, I think most people who do ARE shutting themselves off emotionally at some level in order to do so. and no... I didn't get married multiple times. Just once. You must be confusing me with someone else.
Heart Of A Lion Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 Do you screen for character? If only you knew.
Drseussgrrl Posted July 25, 2012 Posted July 25, 2012 I really hate your use of the word "slut" test. All of my long-term, successful relationships have started off with having sex early on. Apparently, my doing so didn't make me a "slut" in their eyes. Your attitude toward sex is so puritanical and frankly, becoming outdated.
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