Frank discussion with my guy friends

[RedRobin]

I don't know about IRL, but your posts on this thread come off as very negative. Even your last sentence about is very negative, it makes men sound infantile. I'm sure some men don't know what they are doing, but i think you will find most do.

 

What is it you are looking for in men? It sounds like you have a long list of don't wants, but what's on the want list?

 

The problem is that men don't screen for character themselves...or if they do, it doesn't go that far beyond the 'slut' test... which really isn't as valuable a metric as it used to be... not to mention a crappy double standard.

 

Men mostly screen on age, looks, and 'fun'.... so they wouldn't have the first clue on how to adjust their behavior to be more attractive to a woman who screens mostly on character. I agree that plenty of women screen based on some pretty superficial stuff too... but I'm not interested in them.

 

Can't really give you a list.

[Emilia]

The problem is that men don't screen for character themselves...or if they do, it doesn't go that far beyond the 'slut' test...

 

Not true at all! I do sometimes wonder how you have all these male friends yet your animosity against the gender borders on misandrist! You don't get men at all.

 

 

Men mostly screen on age, looks, and 'fun'.... so they wouldn't have the first clue on how to adjust their behavior to be more attractive to a woman who screens mostly on character.

 

Yes they screen on attraction but those that want relationships (and there are plenty that do) screen on compatibility as well. I'm genuinely amazed by how blind you are to this.

[RedRobin]

If you really are all this, then you can meet and attract a high-character man. Meanwhile, I do hope you see things from the male perspective (just as many guys here need to see things from the female perspective even if it seems "off" to them).

 

If we are attracted to you, we will make moves because (a) we want to have sex with women we are attracted to, and (b) we have seen from experience that if we do not, we will get pushed into the Friend Zone. A high-character man will be totally fine with you slowing things down, but don't hold it against him for trying in the first place.

 

I'm not opposed to 'making moves'. I want and need affection and want the progression of intimacy (both physical and emotional) as well.

 

This has come up in other threads... but I get the impression that anytime sex doesn't happen by the 3rd-5th date that you assume you are in the friendzone.

 

It is just as likely that they saw something that indicated you two weren't compatible.

 

I get it that guys wanna 'get some' before the icky parts of their personalities come shining through. Can't blame them. But a truly high character guy knows he is... and has standards of his own. Doncha think? Why would a high character guy want to jump in the sack with a woman HE hardly knows... or be in a position to.

 

Are they really that foolish? Or are the consequences for making a poor decision just not that terrible for guys? I think the latter. They go for quick sex because they can (no matter who they are), and the consequences are minimal no matter how it turns out.

 

Lucky men....

 

...but this is why I am not flattered or impressed one bit by a guy wanting to have sex with me before we've established any real intimacy. It says nothing about me or his feelings about me... all it does is put sex on a 'timer' and kills that feeling of specialness and caring.

 

That's how it feels.

[Imajerk17]

That we push for sex seems distasteful to you. Keep in mind that men who want to date successfully have had to accept some things about women.

 

The biggest thing that we have had to learn is that women generally won't take responsibility to make things happen. Sometimes it manifests itself in silly ways.

 

I'll give you an example from last year in OLD. A woman 70 miles away "winked" at me on Match. She looked cute, but her profile was full of the usual cliches. In the end I decided she was too far so I wrote her that her profile was nice but she was too far. Her response back: "I come to your town all the time for work. Oh well..." My male brain is wondering why she didn't instead contact me via email and work that in to the email. It is what would have been expected of me. You know, take responsibility. BUT my female friends said it was on me to find this stuff out.

 

I thought that it was silly at the time and yes I still think that's silly, but I also know that it the way of most women, and I need to accept this and take the responsibility for moving things forward, even if (especially if?) they were the ones who initiated. And that the guys who resist this will get thrown into the Friend Zone (or more often, not have things happen) time and time again.

Edited July 24, 2012 by Imajerk17

[RedRobin]

Not true at all! I do sometimes wonder how you have all these male friends yet your animosity against the gender borders on misandrist! You don't get men at all.

 

 

 

 

Yes they screen on attraction but those that want relationships (and there are plenty that do) screen on compatibility as well. I'm genuinely amazed by how blind you are to this.

 

... usually after they get sex and without doing much to actually prove their intentions.

 

There is no animosity. Just a mismatch in goals and style.

 

Not blind at all. I'm just not one to go on 'faith' that they actually mean what they say and cross my fingers.

 

If they are looking for a relationship, they can prove it. Not sure why anyone would think that is 'misandrist'... Unless you are against men having to prove anything.

 

Seems like good common sense to me.

[Lonely Ronin]

The problem is that men don't screen for character themselves...or if they do, it doesn't go that far beyond the 'slut' test... which really isn't as valuable a metric as it used to be... not to mention a crappy double standard.

 

See, this is what I mean by a negative point of view of men. Have you meet and discussed this topic with everyone of us? at the very least you could prefix your statements with "in my opinion", or "based on my personal experiences".

 

Can't really give you a list.

 

You can't come up with a list of 4 or 5 adjectives? I think it would help you greatly, if you knew what you where looking for and picked a guy that way. I can tell you that now that I know exactly what I'm looking for, I enjoy dating a lot. I go on a lot fewer dates, but the percentage of good ones is very high.

[xxoo]

I haven't rejected anyone... but you are right, I've cooled off. That is for sure.

 

That is the difference between your pov and his pov. Your "cooling off" likely feels like rejection to him, and he may respond as if rejected whether that was your intention or not.

 

But a truly high character guy knows he is... and has standards of his own. Doncha think? Why would a high character guy want to jump in the sack with a woman HE hardly knows... or be in a position to.

 

If he feels a connection with you, I don't see anything wrong with making a move for sex. I only have a problem with insisting on early sex.

 

You've been considering the casual sex route. Do you think that would make you low character? If not, why question the character of a guy who sometimes enjoys casual sex?

[RedRobin]

That is the difference between your pov and his pov. Your "cooling off" likely feels like rejection to him, and he may respond as if rejected whether that was your intention or not.

 

yes, that is possible.

 

 

If he feels a connection with you, I don't see anything wrong with making a move for sex. I only have a problem with insisting on early sex.

 

ok.

 

You've been considering the casual sex route. Do you think that would make you low character? If not, why question the character of a guy who sometimes enjoys casual sex?

 

I'm considering it as a lifestyle change.... where I have casual sex with strangers... and have friends/family for intimacy...

 

It would make me 'low character' in terms of a possibility of a future possible relationship, yes... in my eyes, it would... There would be no going back for me if I chose that.

 

How to do it while remaining safe is the only remaining question. That part I haven't pieced out.

[Drseussgrrl]

RR,

 

You are forgetting that there are two people in a relationship.

 

You act as though any "quality" dude is just going to know not to push you for sex, automatically know what topics are not right to discuss around you, know where to take you out, know when to call, know when to do x, y, and z.

 

This is why I've said in the past, that you don't seem like much fun; you seem like a chore to date. What fun is a man having if he is constantly being sized up, judged, and secretly criticized by you? I guarantee this comes across in your attitude whether you think it does or not.

 

Men have needs too. And no I'm not talking about sex. The need to feel appreciated for the little things. They need to feel respected. They need to feel trusted. And they need to feel as though they are winning at making you happy. This all goes out the window when you show up just assuming they are sex-crazed neanderthals that you will unceremoniously dump without their knowledge because he suggested a date you disagree with.

 

I really think you need to relax and not take this all so seriously. Next time you're on a date, show up, laugh at his jokes (even if they're dumb), thank him for choosing the restaurant, and act like everything he's interested in is just the COOLEST THING EVER. Men love that. Make him feel like a winner, RR. If you don't want to see him again, hey at least you had a good time and you made a man feel GOOD being around you.

[RedRobin]

RR,

 

You are forgetting that there are two people in a relationship.

 

You act as though any "quality" dude is just going to know not to push you for sex, automatically know what topics are not right to discuss around you, know where to take you out, know when to call, know when to do x, y, and z.

 

This is why I've said in the past, that you don't seem like much fun; you seem like a chore to date. What fun is a man having if he is constantly being sized up, judged, and secretly criticized by you? I guarantee this comes across in your attitude whether you think it does or not.

 

Men have needs too. And no I'm not talking about sex. The need to feel appreciated for the little things. They need to feel respected. They need to feel trusted. And they need to feel as though they are winning at making you happy. This all goes out the window when you show up just assuming they are sex-crazed neanderthals that you will unceremoniously dump without their knowledge because he suggested a date you disagree with.

 

I really think you need to relax and not take this all so seriously. Next time you're on a date, show up, laugh at his jokes (even if they're dumb), thank him for choosing the restaurant, and act like everything he's interested in is just the COOLEST THING EVER. Men love that. Make him feel like a winner, RR. If you don't want to see him again, hey at least you had a good time and you made a man feel GOOD being around you.

 

I know that.

 

If I were completely hopeless socially, I'd have no friends... male or female.

 

I'm tired of the one-way-street. I'm tired of the race to the bedroom.

 

If guys think I'm a chore... then it is because dating THEM is a chore.

 

My friends don't feel this way about me. Not at all.

[xxoo]

It would make me 'low character' in terms of a possibility of a future possible relationship, yes... in my eyes, it would... There would be no going back for me if I chose that.

 

Hmmm.....well, I doubt many adults would share the black and white thinking in terms of character, and future dating worth, with regard to a phase of casual sex.

 

You are a harsh judge, RR. Few would measure up, and the ones that will may not think you measure up.

[Drseussgrrl]

But you can't change them.

 

You can only change yourself. Once you begin to understand men, the more successful you will be in not only your interactions with them, but your relationships, too.

 

I'm still not really sure where you think this race to the bedroom is coming from. Why does it turn you off so much when a man wants to have sex with you? You DO know this is natural, don't you? It's up to you when it happens. This is nothing new under the sun.

[Lonely Ronin]

I'm still not really sure where you think this race to the bedroom is coming from.

 

I don't get this at all either. Both men and women have told her that going over to a guys house doesn't mean he only wants sex, or that he is even pushing for it. it seems like to her though, you go to a guys house for one thing and one thing only.

 

 

By her logic I'm a super sleaze bag that only wants sex, because I have had several women over to my house for dates early on. The fact that it's because I enjoy cooking and the women I date usually do as well, doesn't even enter into her thought process.

[xxoo]

FWIW--I wouldn't be happily married with kids if I had routinely rejected guys for having casual sex, or trying to get in my pants early on, because my H absolutely did both!

 

Still, I decided when we would have sex.

[seachangeoflove]

Of course they were spot on with it. That's why they are my friends :love:

 

There is nothing about watching a movie at his house on the 3rd date when I hardly know him that makes me feel wanted or needed. Neither one of us are idiots or children. I know exactly what it means.

 

Maybe that is what I'm so pissed about.

 

No, pissed isn't the right word.

 

Disappointed. I'm trying not to feel that way.

 

The more I talk (write) about this... the more I don't even want to suggest any other kind of get together. I just want to say I don't think it's going to work when he calls again...

 

good. Sounds like the poor dude dogged a bullet.

 

you really have men friends? No, you don't. Not real ones. Or you'd know men are stupid and make dumb mistakes but will happily make up for it when they've nicely been told where they went wrong.

 

They are very eager to please, even if ill intended. They are not mind readers, and every woman is DIFFERENT. They make decisions based on previous experiences. Sometimes they are bad decisions, we all make them. but if y ou don't give them a chance they will move right on to the next girl. Rightfully so.

[RedRobin]

But you can't change them.

 

Not trying to. The women who feel the need to stick around to coach them seem to be the ones interested in changing them.

 

You can only change yourself. Once you begin to understand men, the more successful you will be in not only your interactions with them, but your relationships, too.

 

I understand most men fine. Too well, in fact.

 

I'm still not really sure where you think this race to the bedroom is coming from. Why does it turn you off so much when a man wants to have sex with you? You DO know this is natural, don't you? It's up to you when it happens. This is nothing new under the sun.

 

No. The timing of sex is up to both people... I'm sick of being the sexual arbiter. He needs to have some damned morals himself.

 

When he asked me to come over to his house, now it becomes all about when we are gonna f*ck and nothing else.

 

Not like I should care. But I do care. Because now it's all about ME and when I'm gonna put out... instead of getting to know him... and getting to know each other.

 

But if you don't give a damn about men having morals, discretion, and some handle on their own sexuality... fine. That's your choice.

 

Because what that means is the next little hottie that crosses his path that he has 'feelings for'... he's not gonna be able to manage himself there either. Get it? When you make sex all about when the woman puts out, the man does not have to have even one iota of personal virtue.

[RedRobin]

good. Sounds like the poor dude dogged a bullet.

 

you really have men friends? No, you don't. Not real ones. Or you'd know men are stupid and make dumb mistakes but will happily make up for it when they've nicely been told where they went wrong.

 

They are very eager to please, even if ill intended. They are not mind readers, and every woman is DIFFERENT. They make decisions based on previous experiences. Sometimes they are bad decisions, we all make them. but if y ou don't give them a chance they will move right on to the next girl. Rightfully so.

 

Yep, no doubt he did... because the other option is having me continue to neg him about all the things he is doing wrong.

 

So, better off for both of us. Yep.

 

You'll just have to take my word for it that I have male friends...

 

and yes, I understand they will move on. That's what the 3rd date rule is all about... and why I resent it.

 

When a guy sets things up for that, without much attempt to get to know me.... Well, whatever nice little romance we had is pretty much dead.

 

That's how it goes. No doubt there are plenty of other ladies ready to roll the dice with their vaginas. The world is full of them. Lots of low hanging fruit there.

 

No worries. I may become one of them should I decide to make this lifestyle choice I'm talking about.

[Imajerk17]

Not trying to. The women who feel the need to stick around to coach them seem to be the ones interested in changing them.

 

 

 

I understand most men fine. Too well, in fact.

 

 

 

No. The timing of sex is up to both people... I'm sick of being the sexual arbiter. He needs to have some damned morals himself.

 

When he asked me to come over to his house, now it becomes all about when we are gonna f*ck and nothing else.

 

Not like I should care. But I do care. Because now it's all about ME and when I'm gonna put out... instead of getting to know him... and getting to know each other.

 

But if you don't give a damn about men having morals, discretion, and some handle on their own sexuality... fine. That's your choice.

 

Because what that means is the next little hottie that crosses his path that he has 'feelings for'... he's not gonna be able to manage himself there either. Get it? When you make sex all about when the woman puts out, the man does not have to have even one iota of personal virtue.

 

Great. Another person who comes on here asking for advice who, guess what, has all the answers already.

 

From this post of yours RedRobin its instead clear you actually have no clue about men. And that you haven't really considered what others have been telling you. Sadly, you are also rigid and unteachable too.

[RedRobin]

Part of this is my own fault for showing some interest in him before I had a chance to observe him and his group a little better.

 

Some of these other things I'm having a problem with him about would have shown up if I'd stuck around a bit longer and done a bit more observing.

 

Oh well.

 

Next time...

[RedRobin]

Great. Another person who comes on here asking for advice who, guess what, has all the answers already.

 

From this post of yours RedRobin its instead clear you actually have no clue about men. And that you haven't really considered what others have been telling you. Sadly, you are also rigid and unteachable too.

 

I don't have all the answers... but most of the advice given here is the same old shyte.

 

Men don't have any responsibility for their sexuality.... beyond where he backs off if the woman says no. Got it.

 

We didn't need however many pages of text to reiterate that.

 

If the 3rd date rule (or therabouts) works with you, then great.

 

But I do seem to recall a thread where you had sex with a girl on the second date who you thought you were into... then you changed your mind the next day. Ya think the little lady might have used more wisdom and told you to shove off?

 

I even remember people telling you that you didn't need to tell her your feelings (or lack thereof). I seem to recall the thread's title was "Im a jerk"

 

There are other posters here that say they just 'play' with women they aren't feeling it for... even after sex... or just f*ck them till they are bored. Of course, guys can do that.

 

Guys can do that and supposedly not be judged later for casual sex too. Why is that?

 

Gee pal... who is the font of wisdom here? NOT the women some of you are f*cking. That is for sure.

 

Now... say again that I'm full of sh*t?

Edited July 24, 2012 by RedRobin

[xxoo]

Because what that means is the next little hottie that crosses his path that he has 'feelings for'... he's not gonna be able to manage himself there either. Get it? When you make sex all about when the woman puts out, the man does not have to have even one iota of personal virtue.

 

Now I get it.

 

But you are wrong. Hoping for sex early on while dating is completely different from remaining faithful while in a committed relationship.

 

Many adults see nothing wrong with some casual sex when single, but very much wrong with cheating while in a relationship. Delaying sex does not necessarily mean more virtuous.

[RedRobin]

Delaying sex does not necessarily mean more virtuous.

 

Delaying sex is practice for being virtuous later when the stakes are higher.

 

That is why men have the 'slut' test. They believe that women who 'put out' early can't possibly be faithful. Do I agree with it? No, but there is some wisdom to it to some extent.

 

I just don't hold double standards about it... If a guy can't show some self-imposed personal restraint (not imposed by the woman), then I'm not so inclined to think he will later either.

 

Just a personal opinion though...

[carhill]

Many adults see nothing wrong with some casual sex when single, but very much wrong with cheating while in a relationship. Delaying sex does not necessarily mean more virtuous.

Yep, this is where an assessment of their relationship and marital history is important, along with observing their familial relations. Each person has a particular and unique style of managing their relationships and making choices within them.

 

Your example, a person having casual sex during their 'single' time between LTR's or M's and then 'switching' to complete monogamy within them is definitely possible and could be considered a style of interaction. Does it match up in a healthy way with their relationships and with their prospective partner's style of conducting relationships?

 

What I'm hearing from the OP is that she has concerns about these style differences and how they are manifested in actions which she perceives. Part of that equation is the actions themselves and part is her perception, the latter of which is a function of her own style of interaction.

 

IMO, if she wishes to progress with a careful and deliberate man, one who doesn't engage in casual sex while single and wishes to 'go slow' with her, that will limit her dating pool significantly, as such behaviors are increasingly outlier in modern society. Heck, they were even outlier when I was young. If she can accept that and dismiss incompatible potentials without prejudice, meaning without negative feelings and thoughts regarding the interactions, then I think the style could have traction within a larger demographic of potentials. Hence, IMO she'll need to expand her dating horizons to societal/social circles which tend to embrace the style she is seeking.

 

OP, my apologies if already answered...if you were to poll your male friends regarding this particular dynamic, the 'styles' discussed in my post, where would your male friends fall, more to the 'crazy' side, or more to the careful and deliberate side? Would you find their styles to be more, or less, synergistic with your own?

[xxoo]

If a guy can't show some self-imposed personal restraint (not imposed by the woman), then I'm not so inclined to think he will later either.

 

You are fighting against not just men, but also women--women who have taught men the "best" way to act. Most women don't want a guy to show so much personal restraint, and enjoy the dance between him pursuing and her letting him in bit by bit.

 

IME, with men I know well, behavior in early dating and behavior once feelings have developed for a woman are apples v. oranges.

[carhill]

It all depends on their style. A lot of men are also unfaithful. While women may *feel* less impulse to indulge when in a relationship due to abundance of offers within and without, men *feel* in a different way than women do, especially men who have abundance. Many public examples can be cited. If their fear of consequences of indulgence overrides their desire for it, then a balance of sorts can be struck.

 

That said...good question for the OP.... what kind of 'dance' do *you* find attractive?