Frank discussion with my guy friends

[Radu]

RR, have you thought about writing a pamphlet about how you want to be dated [not bigger than a novel mind you] and handing it out on your first date together with guys ?

[RedRobin]

RR, your argument is that he barely knows you. Well, you barely know him, too. You have no idea if he is a good guy or a bad guy. What would you have to lose by getting to know him more, before deciding he is a bad guy based on inviting you to his place early on?

 

Decline the date at his home, and counter with a more acceptable date. What do you have to lose?

 

Because I'm rarely wrong. I can't always put my finger on it (whatever 'it') is right off the bat, but 'it' is always something.

 

The things that have caused me the greatest pain in the past came about because I failed to listen to my instincts. So I listen to them now.

 

I already declined the date at his home. If he comes back with something else, I'll think about it, depending on what it is.

 

At the moment, I don't care whether he does or not.

[RedRobin]

I don't understand why you care so much about what others think. If it's such a big deal to you, you should not date men from your friends' circle but seek them outside your usual group. It's harder that way, but if you are this private, it will work for you better.

 

If I thought he was that appealing, I wouldn't care.

 

But he's not worth the hassle. When I decline a future outing with him, I believe I'll mention that I don't want to get involved with the drama in his group and his friends.

 

I'm not a fan of people who need to blab their sex lives all over town. It's tacky.. or who have a habit of sharing details of their friend's lives with near strangers.

 

Not trustworthy.

[RedRobin]

RR, have you thought about writing a pamphlet about how you want to be dated [not bigger than a novel mind you] and handing it out on your first date together with guys ?

 

Sorry, that book has already been written...

 

But, you guys threw it out in favor of PUA lit because all you care about is getting laid.

 

... at the expense of everything else.

 

I know what good manners looks like. He and I aren't compatible... and I'm not into training what good manners are. I don't need another project.

 

Anyway, if I want quick sex, I can find someone alot hotter than him with alot less garbage swirling around him.

[xxoo]

Because I'm rarely wrong. I can't always put my finger on it (whatever 'it') is right off the bat, but 'it' is always something.

 

The things that have caused me the greatest pain in the past came about because I failed to listen to my instincts. So I listen to them now.

 

I already declined the date at his home. If he comes back with something else, I'll think about it, depending on what it is.

 

At the moment, I don't care whether he does or not.

 

It really seems that you are reacting with exactly the same pattern of behavior that your friends called you out on in your original post:

 

What bothered me a little was this...

 

They all pretty much said that a guy doesn't know what I would dump them for. That I don't cut them alot of slack, and if I see indications of certain behavior, they are quickly cut off. More than one man has told me that I scare the sh*t out of them (in their vulnerable moments they say this). I'm not happy about this. I cut people off rather coldly if something about their character turns me off... no matter what my feelings are or how much attraction I have for them. My friends tell me that I have very firm ideas of what I think is 'right' and don't have patience for other viewpoints (yes, I know. DUH! No piling on!! If you feel the need to comment, I'm happy to entertain reasons WHY this is... not the fact that it is... I already figured this out).

 

It wouldn't be a big deal to react like that sometimes. Surely sometimes your instincts are right. But if this is your typical M.O., your instincts are very likely sending off false alarms much of the time.

[Radu]

Sorry, that book has already been written...

 

But, you guys threw it out in favor of PUA lit because all you care about is getting laid.

 

... at the expense of everything else.

 

I know what good manners looks like. He and I aren't compatible... and I'm not into training what good manners are. I don't need another project.

 

Anyway, if I want quick sex, I can find someone alot hotter than him with alot less garbage swirling around him.

 

Are you referring to The Rules ?

Because those women are hardly in a position to give advice ... even though small parts of the book are good.

[irc333]

Right, this is akin to "If my dog doesn't like you, then I won't either". Some women rely too heavily on other people or animals to make their dating decisions for them.

 

But, in this case....she's relying on an not entirely well honed in intuition, or simply she is just LOOKING for a reason to not date someone.

 

It really seems that you are reacting with exactly the same pattern of behavior that your friends called you out on in your original post:

 

 

 

It wouldn't be a big deal to react like that sometimes. Surely sometimes your instincts are right. But if this is your typical M.O., your instincts are very likely sending off false alarms much of the time.

[RedRobin]

Are you referring to The Rules ?

Because those women are hardly in a position to give advice ... even though small parts of the book are good.

 

No. I've never read that book.

 

My model are the relationships my friends and family have...

 

We talked alot about our interests and things we like to do during our last date. If going to his house to watch a movie is the best he can do... or the only activity he's interested in sharing with me... then we aren't compatible.

[Radu]

Yeah, no matter how good the tool you are given, you can still misuse it.

 

Good luck with other guys.

[RedRobin]

It really seems that you are reacting with exactly the same pattern of behavior that your friends called you out on in your original post:

 

 

 

It wouldn't be a big deal to react like that sometimes. Surely sometimes your instincts are right. But if this is your typical M.O., your instincts are very likely sending off false alarms much of the time.

 

Most of the time my instincts are correct... the only thing I've changed in the past couple of years is how I manage that information... and how I treat them once I see what I see.

[xxoo]

We talked alot about our interests and things we like to do during our last date. If going to his house to watch a movie is the best he can do... or the only activity he's interested in sharing with me... then we aren't compatible.

 

I can't believe how harshly you are judging him based on one faux pas!

 

You don't know if that is the best he can do.

You don't know if that is the only activity he is interested in sharing with you.

 

All you know is that he'd like to have you over for a movie, and probably wants to sleep with you. That doesn't make him a bad guy.

[RedRobin]

Yeah, no matter how good the tool you are given, you can still misuse it.

 

Good luck with other guys.

 

I agree. I wasn't always respectful or skilled enough in the past to know how to manage what I learned. But the base information is still the same.

 

I've been respectful and considerate with the man we are talking about.

 

Thank you for the well wishes.

[RedRobin]

I can't believe how harshly you are judging him based on one faux pas!

 

You don't know if that is the best he can do.

You don't know if that is the only activity he is interested in sharing with you.

 

All you know is that he'd like to have you over for a movie, and probably wants to sleep with you. That doesn't make him a bad guy.

 

He'll have plenty of opportunities to impress me some other way... if he cares to. It's not like I'm moving out of the area (yet). We share at least one common activity. There will be other opportunities to observe him, is my guess.

 

In retrospect, if I were having doubts about this biking group, his lifestyle, or dating choices, I should have waited a bit longer to size him up before sending him signals that I was interested in dating him.

 

All we've done is go for a couple of walks, had a nice ride. No harm done.

 

Edited: Women need to set a much higher bar, IMHO... I think they could stand to follow my example. Instead they choose hormones and chaos... and wonder why men don't treat them better... or how they end up in the crappy situations they do.

Edited July 24, 2012 by RedRobin

[RedRobin]

I still think you should put out. If anything, just to calm you down a bit.

 

You are right, I need to calm down.

 

I went for a nice long walk this morning. Will probably hit the gym when I get to work later.

 

I'm also learning this ballet piece, just for fun... Lots of ways to calm down that don't involve sleeping with strangers, I imagine.

 

 

 

That said, if I were in a relationship, I'd say... yea.. I'm in need of a good soldier-f*ck. The next guy I pick is gonna be one lucky guy...

[Lonely Ronin]

Sorry, that book has already been written...

 

But, you guys threw it out in favor of PUA lit because all you care about is getting laid.

 

 

Jesus, your view of men is atrocious. If we are all such scum, why do you want to date any of us?

[xxoo]

He'll have plenty of opportunities to impress me some other way... if he cares to. It's not like I'm moving out of the area (yet). We share at least one common activity. There will be other opportunities to observe him, is my guess.

 

Except he won't, because from his POV, you've rejected him.

 

No biggie for one guy, or in the case of truly awful behavior, but if this is your standard pattern, you need to recognize how you are shutting potentially good guys down. It seems like you expect men you barely know to fight for your favor--but they won't.

 

Edited: Women need to set a much higher bar, IMHO... I think they could stand to follow my example. Instead they choose hormones and chaos... and wonder why men don't treat them better... or how they end up in the crappy situations they do.

 

You should set the bar high, but at least get to know someone before judging if they make the grade. Don't sleep with him on the third date, but also don't dump him for flubbing the third date plans. There is an enormous middle ground of healthy "giving a chance".

[RedRobin]

Jesus, your view of men is atrocious. If we are all such scum, why do you want to date any of us?

 

My view of men is realistic. I've been working around them for a very long time and have many very good male friends.

 

Men aren't scum, but I think your last question is valid.

 

I don't want to date most men.

 

It is beyond time for men to start considering how they are viewed by the women they seek...

 

Some of my employees have this saying "Couldn't hurt to ask." Well, yea... sometimes it does... if it makes you look ungrateful or an idiot.

 

When guys push for early sex, that is how they look. Ungrateful for the time you've spent with them... and idiotic and even insulting to assume I'd go along with it considering everything I've told them prior to them asking.

 

Sure, some idiot women go along with it. They have noone to blame but themselves if things don't turn out like they hoped.

[Imajerk17]

This guy you wrote off, going by what you wrote, I actually think that was a good decision on your part. Some red flags.

 

But YOU might want to consider how YOU come across to the men in your life. You don't seem like you'd be that much fun to hang out with. You feel what you feel so strongly and you don't allow room for others to disagree with you. And there is often a certain amount of anger/rigidity/uptightness coming through in your posts. I thought I could use improvement in that regard but you are a lot worse.

 

It's not that you can't make changes and make them fast. But you need to take responsibility too.

 

Show this thread to your guy friends....

Edited July 24, 2012 by Imajerk17

[RedRobin]

Except he won't, because from his POV, you've rejected him.

 

No biggie for one guy, or in the case of truly awful behavior, but if this is your standard pattern, you need to recognize how you are shutting potentially good guys down. It seems like you expect men you barely know to fight for your favor--but they won't.

 

 

 

You should set the bar high, but at least get to know someone before judging if they make the grade. Don't sleep with him on the third date, but also don't dump him for flubbing the third date plans. There is an enormous middle ground of healthy "giving a chance".

 

I haven't rejected anyone... but you are right, I've cooled off. That is for sure.

 

I already graciously told him I wasn't interested in going to his home until I knew him better...

 

Then when I had a chance to think things through, I realized there are lots of other things I have concerns about that are not going to be addressed by changing date arrangements.

 

I'll admit to 'blowing' it by sending signals I was interested before observing him and his group a bit more. I was premature. I should have waited.

 

As far as my pattern goes... Most of the guys I've rejected I've learned things about after the fact (I'm not bad post-mortem)... or they confess things... and, while I'm disappointed to be 'right'... it doesn't change my opinion about having de-selected them. In most cases, the feeling is more 'bullet dodged'... not a "oh, I should have given him a chance."

[ThaWholigan]

My view of men is realistic. I've been working around them for a very long time and have many very good male friends.

 

Men aren't scum, but I think your last question is valid.

 

I don't want to date most men.

 

It is beyond time for men to start considering how they are viewed by the women they seek...

 

Some of my employees have this saying "Couldn't hurt to ask." Well, yea... sometimes it does... if it makes you look ungrateful or an idiot.

 

When guys push for early sex, that is how they look. Ungrateful for the time you've spent with them... and idiotic and even insulting to assume I'd go along with it considering everything I've told them prior to them asking.

 

Sure, some idiot women go along with it. They have noone to blame but themselves if things don't turn out like they hoped.

So when exactly is the right time to initiate? You know many men have been rejected MANY MANY times for not doing this - which is why some of us are urged to push early. Not just because we want to get laid, but because lack of initiative can (and does) turn women off, hence we never get anywhere.

[RedRobin]

This guy you wrote off, going by what you wrote, I actually think that was a good decision on your part. Some red flags.

 

But YOU might want to consider how YOU come across to the men in your life. You don't seem like you'd be that much fun to hang out with. You feel what you feel so strongly and you don't allow room for others to disagree with you. And there is often a certain amount of anger/rigidity/uptightness coming through in your posts. I thought I could use improvement in that regard but you are a lot worse.

 

It's not that you can't make changes and make them fast. But you need to take responsibility too.

 

Show this thread to your guy friends....

 

What's interesting is that I'm told all the time how much fun I am and what a great sense of humor I have. While I'm 'in the moment', I'm not processing a whole lot and so it is easy for me to be silly and goofy and fun.

 

It is only afterwards that things come together. I think this is also something both my friends and the guys I date are confused about. All those random thoughts and feelings start coming together... then BLAM. Over.

 

... as for here... LS is the place I do my hard thinking and don't apply personal filters. I agree it is a bad habit.

 

What I'm posting here too, are just the details and the things that are standing out in my mind. Not all of it are things I've shared with the other person. It is something I'm working out in my mind.

 

So I can see how there would be a disconnect...

 

Thank you for your insights though...

[RedRobin]

So when exactly is the right time to initiate? You know many men have been rejected MANY MANY times for not doing this - which is why some of us are urged to push early. Not just because we want to get laid, but because lack of initiative can (and does) turn women off, hence we never get anywhere.

 

I'm sorry, TW...

 

This is the dance we spoke about. Listen to some classical music for a better feel for it. Take some dancing lessons where you have to hold a woman.

 

Notice how the music builds. The instruments join in, one by one... the pace rises and continues rising, to a crescendo, then falls back down. THAT is passion, and momentum, and romance. Match THAT and you won't be worrying about which date number it is.

 

To extend the analogy... That 'art' of the mutual dance and back and forth... has been lost in favor of grinding in clubs... which to me is a rather robotic (and hence BORING) expression of sexuality.

 

I mentioned burlesque for a reason too. That doesn't exist anymore either. Everyone ponies up for the in your face lap dance (yes, I've been to many strip clubs... I know what I'm talking about). There, it is all about the acrobatics (ie the pole dance) and how her thang is shaved...

 

no mystery... no imagination....

 

BORING. (although, I'd happily pole dance for my SO if the mood was right... but that is long after intimacy and trust have been established).

 

I didn't answer your question... but I believe the answer is... it is different for every woman.

 

I'm personally frustrated with the '3rd date rule' (and similarly, extended multi-dating) because I'm just bored and annoyed at the way in which our 'dance' is being interrupted by the sh*tty dating 'boom box' of PUA and OLD culture. That is the best metaphor I can provide.

[Lonely Ronin]

My view of men is realistic. I've been working around them for a very long time and have many very good male friends.

 

Men aren't scum, but I think your last question is valid.

 

I don't want to date most men.

 

It is beyond time for men to start considering how they are viewed by the women they seek...

 

I don't know about IRL, but your posts on this thread come off as very negative. Even your last sentence about is very negative, it makes men sound infantile. I'm sure some men don't know what they are doing, but i think you will find most do.

 

What is it you are looking for in men? It sounds like you have a long list of don't wants, but what's on the want list?

[ThaWholigan]

I'm sorry, TW...

 

This is the dance we spoke about. Listen to some classical music for a better feel for it. Take some dancing lessons where you have to hold a woman.

 

Notice how the music builds. The instruments join in, one by one... the pace rises and continues rising, to a crescendo, then falls back down. THAT is passion, and momentum, and romance. Match THAT and you won't be worrying about which date number it is.

 

To extend the analogy... That 'art' of the mutual dance and back and forth... has been lost in favor of grinding in clubs... which to me is a rather robotic (and hence BORING) expression of sexuality.

 

I mentioned burlesque for a reason too. That doesn't exist anymore either. Everyone ponies up for the in your face lap dance (yes, I've been to many strip clubs... I know what I'm talking about). There, it is all about the acrobatics (ie the pole dance) and how her thang is shaved...

 

no mystery... no imagination....

 

BORING. (although, I'd happily pole dance for my SO if the mood was right... but that is long after intimacy and trust have been established).

 

I didn't answer your question... but I believe the answer is... it is different for every woman.

 

I'm personally frustrated with the '3rd date rule' (and similarly, extended multi-dating) because I'm just bored and annoyed at the way in which our 'dance' is being interrupted by the sh*tty dating 'boom box' of PUA and OLD culture. That is the best metaphor I can provide.

Being a musician who is experienced in both jazz and classical, I understand exactly what you are talking about. Not a good dancer unfortunately . But I perfectly get it, and it's something I would prefer myself. I guess I'll take some dancing lessons then ....

 

You're right, it is different for every woman - just the women I have encountered who wanted to jump somebody's bones quickly.

 

I personally feel it's better to be versatile

[Imajerk17]

What's interesting is that I'm told all the time how much fun I am and what a great sense of humor I have. While I'm 'in the moment', I'm not processing a whole lot and so it is easy for me to be silly and goofy and fun.

 

It is only afterwards that things come together. I think this is also something both my friends and the guys I date are confused about. All those random thoughts and feelings start coming together... then BLAM. Over.

 

... as for here... LS is the place I do my hard thinking and don't apply personal filters. I agree it is a bad habit.

 

What I'm posting here too, are just the details and the things that are standing out in my mind. Not all of it are things I've shared with the other person. It is something I'm working out in my mind.

 

So I can see how there would be a disconnect...

 

Thank you for your insights though...

 

If you really are all this, then you can meet and attract a high-character man. Meanwhile, I do hope you see things from the male perspective (just as many guys here need to see things from the female perspective even if it seems "off" to them).

 

If we are attracted to you, we will make moves because (a) we want to have sex with women we are attracted to, and (b) we have seen from experience that if we do not, we will get pushed into the Friend Zone. A high-character man will be totally fine with you slowing things down, but don't hold it against him for trying in the first place.