Frank discussion with my guy friends

[Imajerk17]

I don't tend to put men in boxes as 'losers'. If they have good character, that's all I care about.

 

;b]Problem is, they are the ones who get insecure about things. And find ways to take it out on me rather than deal with their own insecurity about their own life and choices... no matter what I do. [/b]THAT I can't tolerate.

 

So, when I think of having sex with hot 'losers'... what comes to mind is having sex with men I don't respect much as human beings... not anything to do with income or ambition.

 

I bolded the last statement.... you are right. Even putting the career on the back burner doesn't work. I tried that awhile. Because we'd have to eliminate all of those traits that got us here. Taking away the 'title' doesn't change that. Also, we'd eventually get bored and move on anyway. Wouldn't we?

 

So, yes... I'm very tempted to just post a profile online.... with the age everyone tells me I look (5-10 years younger than I am)... and go from there.

 

Because one thing I've definately learned from dating IRL. Men go after who they are attracted to. If you aren't interested in having kids, they don't really care what your age is. They just need an ego boost and something to tell their friends/family. So let them think they are alot older or the same age, even when they aren't. Everyone is happy.

 

... and the younger ones? They wouldn't care either, as long as the sex is good. I've turned them away too, because I'm not interested in anything casual.

 

So, we'll see.

 

The guy I mentioned up thread? Interesting fellow. I have my doubts though after our get together this weekend. He had lots of negative things to say about the other single men in his group (cock-blocking??)... All I told him was that I didn't think his friends would appreciate him sharing private knowledge about them... and that I'd have to get to know the other folks in the riding group personally before forming an opinion about them.

Otherwise, we had a nice time...and for the third 'date', he suggested I come over to his house to watch a movie. Oh jeez. Here we go again. :rolleyes:

Movie, my *ss.

 

 

Very interesting.

 

If I were this guy, I would fine myself wondering about you too. And either (A) just not calling you again, or (B) feeling insecure about things. I'm not sure the spirit in which he badmouthed the other guys in the group--it wasn't a great idea on his part--but there you go assuming something bad about him and lecturing him about how "you think his friends wouldn't appreciate him saying these things" (men HATE that). And now you are assuming something bad about the guy again (is that a pattern for you?) because he invited you over his place for a third date. (You understand that a lot of guys are "friend-zoned" for NOT making a move right?)

 

What exactly are you giving these guys to let them know you are interested? If this example is indicative of how you act, I have an idea why you struggle with dating. The insecure ones will stay and show you their insecurities, while the confident ones will just walk away from you.

 

Sounds to me that it isn't them, it is instead you.

Edited July 23, 2012 by Imajerk17

[RedRobin]

One thing men hate is feeling disposable in a relationship and women with the kind of traits you mention tend to make men feel like that even if they don't mean to. Men tend to invest emotionally when we truly that a woman is invested and doesn't have one foot out with a take it or leave it attitude towards a man. Men tend to go for trophy wife types because they don't give off that I don't need a man vibe. Men are just as scared as women as opening themselves up and that is where that cold hearted facade comes from.

 

I never could understand that. Trophy wives, that is... Who wants a mealy-mouthed sycophant as a partner?

 

Take a look at Newt Gingrich... I love this article...

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/opinion/sunday/dowd-the-great-mans-wife.html

 

A dose of reality and a kick in the pants could have helped him ALOT.

[Woggle]

I never could understand that. Trophy wives, that is... Who wants a mealy-mouthed sycophant as a partner?

 

Take a look at Newt Gingrich... I love this article...

 

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/02/05/opinion/sunday/dowd-the-great-mans-wife.html

 

A dose of reality and a kick in the pants could have helped him ALOT.

 

Because even if it is a role they are playing they know to make a man feel like he matters in her life and is not just a disposable take or leave it option.

[Drseussgrrl]

You should do a bit of reading up on the positives of feminine, receptive energy.

 

I agree with Imajerk - you are sort of immediately putting men on the defensive when what men LOVE more than anything is the feeling that they can make you happy, and that you're fun. You're so worried about not getting hurt or taken advantage of that you're shutting men down before they have a chance to get out the gate.

 

So - go watch a movie with the dude if you like him. Heck even make out a little. It doesn't have to go any further than you want it to.

 

And - here's a hint. If he's trying to sleep with you, it doesn't make him some horn-crazed jerk. He's attracted to you, and he's a man. That's what they do. It doesn't mean you have to sleep with him if you don't want to, but you can't get angry about a man doing what years of hard-wiring and evolution has coursing through his veins.

[Imajerk17]

You should do a bit of reading up on the positives of feminine, receptive energy.

 

I agree with Imajerk - you are sort of immediately putting men on the defensive when what men LOVE more than anything is the feeling that they can make you happy, and that you're fun. You're so worried about not getting hurt or taken advantage of that you're shutting men down before they have a chance to get out the gate.

 

So - go watch a movie with the dude if you like him. Heck even make out a little. It doesn't have to go any further than you want it to.

 

And - here's a hint. If he's trying to sleep with you, it doesn't make him some horn-crazed jerk. He's attracted to you, and he's a man. That's what they do. It doesn't mean you have to sleep with him if you don't want to, but you can't get angry about a man doing what years of hard-wiring and evolution has coursing through his veins.

 

Very well-said. You put what I was getting at much better than I did....

[xxoo]

See, now there is the other issue...

 

I don't tend to want the kind of guys who would be comfortable with that arrangement. Just like guys don't tend to want women who have a habit of casual sex either.

 

Hmmm.....why not?

 

Does a guy need to be head over heels for you in order for you to be sexually attracted? How much of this is about your need to be convincingly wanted?

 

I disagree about men not wanting women who have casual sex. Men LOVE that kind of woman for casual sex, just not for a girlfriend.

[RedRobin]

Very interesting.

 

If I were this guy, I would fine myself wondering about you too. And either (A) just not calling you again, or (B) feeling insecure about things. I'm not sure the spirit in which he badmouthed the other guys in the group--it wasn't a great idea on his part--but there you go assuming something bad about him and lecturing him about how "you think his friends wouldn't appreciate him saying these things" (men HATE that).

 

That was after I patiently listened for about a half-hour while he went on and on... he said his friend would feel 'betrayed' if he knew he was out with me. Betrayed? Why?

 

I'll tell you why. Because his friend talked to me first. Talked to me, mind you. No numbers exchanged... no flirty talk... just talked... Apparently he pissed on his 'territory' and I should stand there waiting to be dragged back to his man cave... whaa??

 

And now you are assuming something bad about the guy again (is that a pattern for you?) because he invited you over his place for a third date. (You understand that a lot of guys are "friend-zoned" for NOT making a move right?)

 

Not my problem! You guys and your stupid third date rule!

 

If he pushes me that way this early, he's done. No 4th date for him. Regardless of any attraction I may have had for him.

 

What exactly are you giving these guys to let them know you are interested? If this example is indicative of how you act, I have an idea why you struggle with dating. The insecure ones will stay and show you their insecurities, while the confident ones will just walk away from you.

 

You tell me... what am I supposed to give him? A blow job? Would that do it?

 

Sounds to me that it isn't them, it is instead you.

 

I dunno. My way worked in finding LTR's in the past. Worked for most of my friends and family too.

 

All that is left now is guys and their 3 dates or under rule.

 

No. I think the problem is THEM.

 

But like I said... I have pondered the wisdom of just having casual sex and keeping emotional intimacy between me and my friends/family.

[Radu]

Because even if it is a role they are playing they know to make a man feel like he matters in her life and is not just a disposable take or leave it option.

 

 

Bloody spot on.

 

I was actually thinking about this today.

It seemed to be that at one time men and women had all of this stuff separated, men went to earn money, women took care of the household.

Men felt needed.

After women joined the workforce, there was a surplus of employable ppl, high competition for jobs, and the one thing that we felt was 'ours' and that we felt we were needed for was gone.

Obviously things won't go back to the same thing [unless we have a Mad Max theme to our future], but i think women today are in quite a pickle.

On one side they are told they can be anything they want to be, can make the most money, and in some couples [not all] they do. Money is power, power in a relationship.

So the woman or the man become insecure about the whole thing, 'what does she need me around for ?', 'is there anything he does for me ?'.

Before, women were provided with what to 'look up to' in the case of men.

Good provider, good job, etc ... it was our identity.

Now, we don't have an identity.

So we can either try to figure this one out as a couple, and the woman can allow us to have our identity so that she can 'look up to us' even if in a RP way, or she can believe she is the best at everything and wonder why she has nothing to hold at night.

 

To compound this, many women take up things that poison their feminine image and make them look more masculine, less attractive to us.

Swearing, drinking heavily in public, puking, i could go on ...

 

There is a thread in about pegging [sexual practice] on this forum.

I honestly feel more revulsion to a woman who swears, is loud, drunk, obnoxious, shatters her feminine being, than i do to a woman that has a strapon with a dildo on when we have sex.

[Drseussgrrl]

Why not try taking the "rule" out of it and just go with the flow? If he makes the move on you, tell him you aren't ready and would like to reserve sex for a committed relationship.

 

No defensiveness, no anger, no accusation. Just tell him politely and kindly... "You know I'm VERY attracted to you too, and I'm sure it would be a lot of fun, but I'm just not ready for that yet. Are you ok with this?"

 

Then see what he says. You can stick with your boundaries without making a man feel shut-down or rejected, or that he's WRONG for wanting sex with you.

[Ruby Slippers]

No. I think the problem is THEM.

Do you hear yourself?

 

Blaming other people for your problems is a great way to stay stuck. The only person you can change is yourself - and if you want your life to improve, you've got to improve yourself.

 

You come across as very judgmental. And I say that as someone who used to be way more judgmental and has come a long way in relaxing. It's just fear. All that judgment you're laying on men - that's a product of how you feel about yourself deep down.

 

As long as I blamed my dating problems on modern men and their flaws, I got to stay cooped up at home feeling sorry for myself. As soon as I shed that lazy, self-defeating attitude, I started meeting much cooler guys.

[miss_jaclynrae]

That was after I patiently listened for about a half-hour while he went on and on... he said his friend would feel 'betrayed' if he knew he was out with me. Betrayed? Why?

 

I'll tell you why. Because his friend talked to me first. Talked to me, mind you. No numbers exchanged... no flirty talk... just talked... Apparently he pissed on his 'territory' and I should stand there waiting to be dragged back to his man cave... whaa??

 

 

 

Not my problem! You guys and your stupid third date rule!

 

If he pushes me that way this early, he's done. No 4th date for him. Regardless of any attraction I may have had for him.

 

 

 

You tell me... what am I supposed to give him? A blow job? Would that do it?

 

 

 

I dunno. My way worked in finding LTR's in the past. Worked for most of my friends and family too.

 

All that is left now is guys and their 3 dates or under rule.

 

No. I think the problem is THEM.

 

But like I said... I have pondered the wisdom of just having casual sex and keeping emotional intimacy between me and my friends/family.

 

 

 

 

Someone got their panties in a bunch.

Stop being so difficult and defensive and maybe you will learn something.

[Woggle]

It has nothing to do with how successful a woman is. There are plenty of women making tons of money who still don't give off that I don't need a man vibe. If a man feels like he matters in a woman's life then that is when wants to really invest emotionally.

[RedRobin]

It doesn't mean you have to sleep with him if you don't want to, but you can't get angry about a man doing what years of hard-wiring and evolution has coursing through his veins.

 

I'm not angry about it.

 

I'm bored.

 

Sex with strangers is boring. There is no intimacy here. No progression.

 

It's the difference between burlesque (sexy and fun... leaves something to the imagination) and a full-on nude strip show (TMI).

 

I could do it... (casual sex) knowing how I am in other areas of my life... but I'd be bored quickly and I'd lose respect for him. I'm already losing respect for him. Am trying not to.

[Ruby Slippers]

A lot of people are making another good point - a man wants to feel confident that he has what it takes to make you happy. Try acknowledging and appreciating men for what they bring to the table, regardless of what they do not bring, and see what happens.

[Drseussgrrl]

Maybe so, but he doesn't see you as a total stranger. He sees someone he is attracted to, is enjoying spending time with, and is excited about.

 

RR, you haven't even gone to his house yet and you are thinking all he wants is sex. You are already getting WAY ahead of yourself (and him).

 

Just relax!

[RedRobin]

 

Someone got their panties in a bunch.

Stop being so difficult and defensive and maybe you will learn something.

 

(hitting ignore button)

 

I don't need any training on how to be a slut and call it 'dating'... whether it comes from a man or a woman... anyone can do that.

 

I'll take the ignore button off when I'm looking for suggestions on how to appear single when I'm really not... K?

[Radu]

RR, i'm a guy.

I don't like ONS, i have never had a ONS.

I prefer to have sex after at least the 3rd date [i usually go with coffee date + 1st date in public + 2nd date in park or something + 3rd date at my place to see a movie]. After the 4th date i usually start being serious about wanting it.

 

I tried having these dates in 2 ways :

- have fun way, no sexual undertones ... i got friendzoned ... A LOT

Through friends i found out that they thought i was not attracted to them so they ended up with other guys or got busy in life with something.

- have fun way, with gradually increasing sexual undertones.

I got results, they knew i had attraction to them.

They would use what the PUA guys call 'the slut defense' where they stop a guy in his tracks several times to make him undestand they are 'a good girl', and then they might let you go for it.

They can always say no, but they have to know that i see them as sexual beings and i'm not shy about it [once you get to know me you realise i'm actually incredibly shy ].

 

Nothing personal, but this is what works.

Every guy gets told this, and yes, it might not work with 1% or 5% or more of the women, but for guys tbh ... it's a numbers game and it works with the vast majority, since we are the ones approaching; in your situation it is also a numbers game from your position.

[Drseussgrrl]

Personally, I LIKE feeling desired. And I like it when a man makes his desire for me plain.

 

Constant unwanted pawing or pressure is one thing, but subtle things like touching my arm on a date, taking my hand as we cross the street, kissing me at the end of the night, putting his hand on the small of my back as we enter a room - all of those small physical gestures make me feel womanly and like he definitely does NOT see me as just a friend.

 

RR - how do you feel when a man does this on a date with you? Do you welcome it, or rebuff it? This is of course if you like him.

[RedRobin]

Going back to my first set of posts about him...

 

I was having reservations about his lifestyle and (to some extent) his choice of friends before agreeing to go out with him.

 

I never said anything about it... I did say that I noticed that certain biker groups were better than others and left it at that. Some of my best friends ride motorcycles and are totally respectable.

 

Most men in this area are not concerned about me... I have every reason to be concerned about the men I meet in my area. I've come across more than my fair share of men who were cheaters, had criminal records (misdemeanors, mostly), recovering substance abusers of one sort or another. The decent ones who end up single don't stay here (I'm trying to move myself).

 

All things considered, I think I'm going to have to pass on this one. Too much drama already with his group... everyone trying to climb on like a frikkin horseshoe crab.

 

Don't need it. I'm going to back off.

[RedRobin]

Personally, I LIKE feeling desired. And I like it when a man makes his desire for me plain.

 

Constant unwanted pawing or pressure is one thing, but subtle things like touching my arm on a date, taking my hand as we cross the street, kissing me at the end of the night, putting his hand on the small of my back as we enter a room - all of those small physical gestures make me feel womanly and like he definitely does NOT see me as just a friend.

 

RR - how do you feel when a man does this on a date with you? Do you welcome it, or rebuff it? This is of course if you like him.

 

I welcome that. It's part of the progression. But waiting for the other shoe to drop. Like it's 'decision time' by the 3rd or 4th date. No. That pretty much sucks the life out of it for me. These damned 'slut' tests and some men's need to push things without even knowing you. I'm so OVER it.

 

It's like this other guy I'll refer to as "Mr Sexy Talk". He may have been interested in a relationship with me (doubt it)... but let's just go with this...

 

We go from having a very nice conversation about diving and our mutual interests when I first meet him... and the very next conversation he's asking me what I like to sleep in. Couldn't dissuade him either. He was determined to try to 'push past boundaries'.. as they say here.

 

It's not cute. It's not attractive. It is boring. If there is no intimacy, it is boring as hell. I wish I had another word for it... but I don't.

[miss_jaclynrae]

(hitting ignore button)

 

I don't need any training on how to be a slut and call it 'dating'... whether it comes from a man or a woman... anyone can do that.

 

I'll take the ignore button off when I'm looking for suggestions on how to appear single when I'm really not... K?

 

There you go again with the judgemental attitude ...

[RedRobin]

They would use what the PUA guys call 'the slut defense' where they stop a guy in his tracks several times to make him undestand they are 'a good girl', and then they might let you go for it.

They can always say no, but they have to know that i see them as sexual beings and i'm not shy about it [once you get to know me you realise i'm actually incredibly shy ].

 

I appreciate your perspective... and what you described is pretty much standard fare for dating these days... which I've grown tired of.

 

I'm not up for the 'slut' tests... where I 'lose' either way... and everything becomes about how fast or slow I have sex with him.

 

Not only that, it takes the focus off the man's behavior. I don't want to date a man who is a 'slut' either.

 

Or... I could... but it is not likely I'd want to talk to him in a week or two.

 

FTR... I had one ONS when I was fairly young. I was just like what I'm saying... I was very cold afterwards... even though we had a great time that evening and talked about some intimate things. The sex was even good and we had some things in common. But a light switch just went off after that. There was no real intimacy there... The next day he pressed his number into my hand (I had to look down to even remember what his name was)... He wanted me to call him. I never did.

 

He called me a month later, and asked if I were coming up to that town again (I was there visiting friends). I said no and said it was a long drive.

 

My girlfriends were PISSED at me. Told me I really hurt the guy. I never did that again. Never had another ONS and never went for casual sex again.

 

I know how I am, or can be.

[RedRobin]

it's a numbers game and it works with the vast majority, since we are the ones approaching; in your situation it is also a numbers game from your position.

 

Yea, I get it...

 

'put out' or else...

 

So far, I've taken the 'or else' with guys who have the standard strategy or need to test me that way.

 

I'm still debating the other path. The one I mentioned above.

[RedRobin]

I think that's why I like flying too. It's something like "here is a very dangerous machine, make it do what you want it to, if you f*ck it up you're gonna die, good luck". And the machine doesn't care whether you pass or fail, or find it too hard or too easy, or can't grasp the engineering and the "feel" at the same time, it just "is". You can get in it and take off, or not, up to you. There's something very powerful about all that, perfect mix of responsibility for yourself and whoever is with you, control in the form of manipulating the machine itself, and humbleness/some other word I fail to think of regarding weather and the limits of your ability, etc.

 

That's what I like about driving motorcycles too

[snug.bunny]

So, I guess you're not going to put out then huh?

 

All things considered, I think I'm going to have to pass on this one. Too much drama already with his group... everyone trying to climb on like a frikkin horseshoe crab.