Frank discussion with my guy friends

[thatone]

Women can be callous too but it is true that it feels alien to us. Partly, because men expect us to be the softness they come home to. I don't see them the same way as the OP does, I don't think it's about dominance. It's more about the little boy going home to mum a lot of the time.

 

I agree, but I don't think that's the fault of men either. Considering the male thought process I outlined above, you can see why men want a trusting woman to come home to. Their work life might be cruel and vindictive. There is no room for emotion and friendships must be carefully selected, in those cases, because it's very possible you walk all over a guy you consider your friend to gain something from his misfortune.

 

These are exaggerated of course but very real for a lot of men, depending on their profession.

 

And if that's the case, and such men are not what you want, that's fine. But where men get mad at women is the inability of women to simply tell the truth about what they want. The female desire to soften the blow and keep everyone happy makes men more angry because they find out they've been lied to.

 

There was a great quote on a facebook organization awhile back that said..

 

"we were born too late to explore the earth and too early to explore the cosmos, our frontier is the human mind"

 

The rest of the quote was anti religious but the above I think is applicable to relationships too. Times are changing, people are changing, culture is changing. People who shed tradition and make their own rules in a logical way stand to wind up happier in their lives I think. That means everyone has to step outside of their comfort zone at some point, and ability to do so or lack thereof might be the biggest red flag of all.

 

In RedRobin's case I would advise not trying to separate two lives (work and personal) to try and be two different people. Pick one or the other, make up your own set of rules, and go with it.

Edited July 23, 2012 by thatone

[xxoo]

My male friendships have lasted longer than most of my romances. Maybe I'll just stick with that. Emotional connection with my male friends.... casual sex/dating for the rest. I expect a number of men will be hurt in that process... which is probably the only reason I haven't pursued that path so far.

 

I'll bet you'd find plenty of men who want the same, and would love this arrangement. Be honest about what you are looking for, and what you are not, and they'll be fine--grown ups making informed choices. The problems arise more often when a person pretends to want one thing (relationship) in order to get something else (sex).

 

Who knows, maybe some fun times with some fun men (no strings attached) would help you in the long run. You've had a lot of negative experiences dating; now it is time for some positive ones.

[RedRobin]

Re-read all of my points above, those other men don't care about him if he doesn't like them and they don't like him. He can call them baby seal clubbers and they would't lose a moment's sleep over it, unless they were competing for you. And in that case the only reason they would care is if some statement or observation gives someone the upper hand.

 

Yea... he was pre-empting some moves on their parts. He was 'warning' me.

 

Riiiight... I told him I was capable of making up my own mind about things, and it just made him look insecure.

 

I said "hey, if you think this other guy is such a bad dude, then you should use him to screen ALL your dates. If the girl goes for him instead of you, then you know you dodged a bullet."

 

Men don't care what other men think, unless the end of that road benefits them in some way.

 

I'd say alot of people are this way... not just men.

 

And yeah, the ole movie trick, lol. Then again the dude doesn't know any other way, from what you tell us. What do you expect him to say? If you expect him to initiate dates and pick things to do, he is going to fall back on things he has done before. If you want different you have to be different too, and see if he can still be comfortable with you making decisions and him following, right?

 

Well, when he suggested it, I said... uh... nooooo! and told him that I wouldn't be having house dates with him until we got to know each other better. So, we'll see.

[thatone]

Yeah but did you suggest something else? How would he take it if you did?

 

I'm piecing all of this together and trying to put myself in his shoes and it sounds confusing. On the one hand you are educated, successful, confident enough to be around him despite not "fitting in" and all of that jazz. And then on the other hand you're trying to play the 'traditional' female dating role of being distrustful of him and reluctant about sex and what not.

 

It's a conflicting message. It doesn't fit.

 

And imo it stems from your attempt to be two different people, which is not really possible to pull off, at some point you simply have to decide which person you are and make that person happy, and discard the other person you try to be.

[RedRobin]

I'll bet you'd find plenty of men who want the same, and would love this arrangement. Be honest about what you are looking for, and what you are not, and they'll be fine--grown ups making informed choices. The problems arise more often when a person pretends to want one thing (relationship) in order to get something else (sex).

 

Who knows, maybe some fun times with some fun men (no strings attached) would help you in the long run. You've had a lot of negative experiences dating; now it is time for some positive ones.

 

See, now there is the other issue...

 

I don't tend to want the kind of guys who would be comfortable with that arrangement. Just like guys don't tend to want women who have a habit of casual sex either.

 

So, everyone says they are looking for a relationship, when they really aren't... or maybe they are... if Mr/Miss America got thrown in the window (ala Animal House). ha ha

 

I hear you on the last statement... My experiences haven't been too negative lately. I AM tired of the 'ol song and dance though. That is true.

[Radu]

Just wanted to add that from your posting on this forum, i also believe you are rather ... snippy, and a bit of a feminist [small bit], not as much as others mind you and i'm thinking in terms more of 'radical' than in terms of 'just believe in equality'.

 

They also told you that you tend to see life more through black and white instead of shades of grey.

 

RR, how old are you and for how long have you had this job ?

[Emilia]

 

And if that's the case, and such men are not what you want, that's fine. But where men get mad at women is the inability of women to simply tell the truth about what they want. The female desire to soften the blow and keep everyone happy makes men more angry because they find out they've been lied to.

 

Most people can't handle the truth. Hence religion, guys paying for prostitutes and think those pros love them, posting here instead of going out dating, etc. You might be able to handle hard truths but most people can't, regardless male or female. There wouldn't be so much deluded behaviour around otherwise.

 

One thing I have learnt in my life is that the male ego is a very fragile thing and being tactful gets me much further than truth does. Tactful as in 'white lies'.

[RedRobin]

Yeah but did you suggest something else? How would he take it if you did?

 

I'm piecing all of this together and trying to put myself in his shoes and it sounds confusing. On the one hand you are educated, successful, confident enough to be around him despite not "fitting in" and all of that jazz. And then on the other hand you're trying to play the 'traditional' female dating role of being distrustful of him and reluctant about sex and what not.

 

It's a conflicting message. It doesn't fit.

 

And imo it stems from your attempt to be two different people, which is not really possible to pull off, at some point you simply have to decide which person you are and make that person happy, and discard the other person you try to be.

 

I'm not playing at the 'traditional' female dating role. I don't have casual sex (even though I could) because I don't think it leads to intimacy...

 

Intimacy is my goal. Or has been. I've been in love and I want that again. It didn't happen before by having casual sex!!

 

Unfortunately for me... the guys who 'get' that stayed married. I made a bad choice of husbands, so here I am. Stuck in this dating pool where people think that intimacy comes from screwing strangers.

 

I WANT to invest, and I have. I invest a great deal. In my work, in my friendships... in everything. That is the part that is consistent between my work and personal life. It is the part that Emilia mentioned that I had to ponder more (that fear of over investing). I feel that.

 

Since it doesn't seem most men give a sh*t about intimacy... or I only get emotional intimacy from my friends (male and female)... I'm considering crossing over to this other side... cause yea. I don't plan on being celibate my whole life just because our culture is schizophrenic.

[thatone]

Most people can't handle the truth. Hence religion, guys paying for prostitutes and think those pros love them, posting here instead of going out dating, etc. You might be able to handle hard truths but most people can't, regardless male or female. There wouldn't be so much deluded behaviour around otherwise.

 

One thing I have learnt in my life is that the male ego is a very fragile thing and being tactful gets me much further than truth does. Tactful as in 'white lies'.

 

Yeah, I get that, and it's a shame. I'm always honest, even when I don't agree with people I tell them why.

 

FWIW women aren't any different, by and large.

 

Being honest and confident in my own knowledge and behavior gets me in the door with women easily. Then it's not uncommon to have them assume I was dishonest about how I live my life, and it becomes an issue later.

 

"no really, I wasn't being facetious, I'm going to do XYZ whether you want to or not".

 

Then I get a look of surprise and disappointment, as if it was assumed I was lying or over exaggerating. These situations can be anything from taking a trip to buying something or doing something most people don't do (I learned to fly and am gonna sell my house and live in a smaller/more economic home to buy a plane for instance).

 

The sudden reaction a lot of women who think that sounds fun have I think is "omg I don't have control over this guy, I have to do something about that" and the decline of distrust starts from there.

 

But I don't change, I just keep doing whatever I want to do and if it means I do some of it (or all of it) alone that's fine.

[RedRobin]

Just wanted to add that from your posting on this forum, i also believe you are rather ... snippy, and a bit of a feminist [small bit], not as much as others mind you and i'm thinking in terms more of 'radical' than in terms of 'just believe in equality'.

 

They also told you that you tend to see life more through black and white instead of shades of grey.

 

RR, how old are you and for how long have you had this job ?

 

I could answer, but I don't believe it is relevant to my issue.

 

The 'f' word isn't part of my vocabulary.

 

There are people who get stuff done. And people who don't.

 

There are people who whine, and people who (even if they don't like it), acknowledge it, adapt, and carry on.

[Emilia]

"no really, I wasn't being facetious, I'm going to do XYZ whether you want to or not".

 

Then I get a look of surprise and disappointment, as if it was assumed I was lying or over exaggerating. These situations can be anything from taking a trip to buying something or doing something most people don't do (I learned to fly and am gonna sell my house and live in a smaller/more economic home to buy a plane for instance).

 

The sudden reaction a lot of women who think that sounds fun have I think is "omg I don't have control over this guy, I have to do something about that" and the decline of distrust starts from there.

 

 

Men just look at me like some weirdo sometimes because I'm so independent and they get scared too. Flying your own plane is an excellent short cut to commute c**p by the way.

 

I like being down at the boxing gym so much and I think it's because no misunderstandings there. Everyone that trains there admits to being drawn to certain things without dressing it up pretty pretty. Those guys are as upfront as you can get and that suits me fine.

[thatone]

I'm not playing at the 'traditional' female dating role. I don't have casual sex (even though I could) because I don't think it leads to intimacy...

 

Intimacy is my goal. Or has been. I've been in love and I want that again. It didn't happen before by having casual sex!!

 

Unfortunately for me... the guys who 'get' that stayed married. I made a bad choice of husbands, so here I am. Stuck in this dating pool where people think that intimacy comes from screwing strangers.

 

I WANT to invest, and I have. I invest a great deal. In my work, in my friendships... in everything. That is the part that is consistent between my work and personal life. It is the part that Emilia mentioned that I had to ponder more (that fear of over investing). I feel that.

 

Since it doesn't seem most men give a sh*t about intimacy... or I only get emotional intimacy from my friends (male and female)... I'm considering crossing over to this other side... cause yea. I don't plan on being celibate my whole life just because our culture is schizophrenic.

 

I give a sh*t about intimacy. Sex is easy to come by, trust isn't. Just because I've had casual sex doesn't mean I dislike intimacy. It just means that I didn't want intimacy with the ones I had casual sex with, for whatever reason.

 

I agree on Emilia's point about fear. "Fear is the mind killer" . I don't really fear anything, including relationships with women. I have been mistreated and done some mistreating, just like everyone else. I don't dwell on it either way.

 

I also agree with your point about culture. F*ck culture (the f word is in my vocabulary), I decide what culture I want to be in and if someone else doesn't like it we can not get along. I don't need to fit in with everyone around me. In fact considering I'm sitting in TX right now I don't even need to fit in with most. They actually elected Rick Perry.

[miss_jaclynrae]

Maybe you should try multi-dating.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I kid I kid.

[thatone]

I like being down at the boxing gym so much and I think it's because no misunderstandings there. Everyone that trains there admits to being drawn to certain things without dressing it up pretty pretty. Those guys are as upfront as you can get and that suits me fine.

 

I've always been a boxing fan. You have to pay for HBO now, you know . Never trained in it at all to work out or anything but I never miss a fight (well, I miss heavyweight fights, but not middleweight on down).

 

I like that boxing doesn't change. It's at times corrupt, and at times very pure, sometimes it's both of those things at the same time, but it doesn't change, it is what it is you can take it or leave it. I do like that about the sport too.

[miss_jaclynrae]

I could answer, but I don't believe it is relevant to my issue.

 

The 'f' word isn't part of my vocabulary.

 

There are people who get stuff done. And people who don't.

 

There are people who whine, and people who (even if they don't like it), acknowledge it, adapt, and carry on.

 

You are WAY too black and white.

 

I am mostly curious as to what caused you to be this way.

[joystickd]

Most people can't handle the truth. Hence religion, guys paying for prostitutes and think those pros love them, posting here instead of going out dating, etc. You might be able to handle hard truths but most people can't, regardless male or female. There wouldn't be so much deluded behaviour around otherwise.

 

One thing I have learnt in my life is that the male ego is a very fragile thing and being tactful gets me much further than truth does. Tactful as in 'white lies'.

I prefer truth and at the end of the day most prefer truth because most guys looking back on their experiences it bothered them more that they were told "white lies" and would have respected the other person more if they had just been told the truth no matter how harsh it is.

[Emilia]

I've always been a boxing fan. You have to pay for HBO now, you know . Never trained in it at all to work out or anything but I never miss a fight (well, I miss heavyweight fights, but not middleweight on down).

 

I like that boxing doesn't change. It's at times corrupt, and at times very pure, sometimes it's both of those things at the same time, but it doesn't change, it is what it is you can take it or leave it. I do like that about the sport too.

 

I like the discipline and how hard it is and how you can't fake anything. Only got into it recently, my boss was going on about it for ages and an ex of mine took it up so I gave it a go too. Wish I had taken it up sooner. Yes there is corruption (on my level I'll never know) but in the gym there is no BS, it's physically and mentally too hard.

 

That's where I'm off now, can't wait!

 

Sorry OP for highjacking your thread!

[Emilia]

I prefer truth and at the end of the day most prefer truth because most guys looking back on their experiences it bothered them more that they were told "white lies" and would have respected the other person more if they had just been told the truth no matter how harsh it is.

 

Then you are an exception

[ThaWholigan]

I'm not playing at the 'traditional' female dating role. I don't have casual sex (even though I could) because I don't think it leads to intimacy...

 

Intimacy is my goal. Or has been. I've been in love and I want that again. It didn't happen before by having casual sex!!

 

Unfortunately for me... the guys who 'get' that stayed married. I made a bad choice of husbands, so here I am. Stuck in this dating pool where people think that intimacy comes from screwing strangers.

 

I WANT to invest, and I have. I invest a great deal. In my work, in my friendships... in everything. That is the part that is consistent between my work and personal life. It is the part that Emilia mentioned that I had to ponder more (that fear of over investing). I feel that.

 

Since it doesn't seem most men give a sh*t about intimacy... or I only get emotional intimacy from my friends (male and female)... I'm considering crossing over to this other side... cause yea. I don't plan on being celibate my whole life just because our culture is schizophrenic.

 

You should stick to your guns, eventually it will bear fruit for you. It is your way, and even though you may have to augment it slightly with an added viewpoint from other angles, you shouldn't have to completely compromise it. I'm sure you wouldn't anyway .

 

It does take some doing to sift through the masses of BS just to find the golden turd (), but I am a firm believer that there are differences even in the small circle we dwell within. There are many men who value intimacy, and although you may find it difficult to find one who embodies the character you desire, I think that sticking it out will eventually pay off soon.

[joystickd]

I'm not playing at the 'traditional' female dating role. I don't have casual sex (even though I could) because I don't think it leads to intimacy...

 

Intimacy is my goal. Or has been. I've been in love and I want that again. It didn't happen before by having casual sex!!

 

Unfortunately for me... the guys who 'get' that stayed married. I made a bad choice of husbands, so here I am. Stuck in this dating pool where people think that intimacy comes from screwing strangers.

 

I WANT to invest, and I have. I invest a great deal. In my work, in my friendships... in everything. That is the part that is consistent between my work and personal life. It is the part that Emilia mentioned that I had to ponder more (that fear of over investing). I feel that.

 

Since it doesn't seem most men give a sh*t about intimacy... or I only get emotional intimacy from my friends (male and female)... I'm considering crossing over to this other side... cause yea. I don't plan on being celibate my whole life just because our culture is schizophrenic.

Most men care about intimacy. I think the trouble for most people is finding someone compatible with their set of beliefs, values and have the approach to dating and relationships. Have your guy friends ever offered to fix you up with someone they know that is more along the lines of someone that maybe more compatible with you?

[thatone]

I like the discipline and how hard it is and how you can't fake anything. Only got into it recently, my boss was going on about it for ages and an ex of mine took it up so I gave it a go too. Wish I had taken it up sooner. Yes there is corruption (on my level I'll never know) but in the gym there is no BS, it's physically and mentally too hard.

 

That's where I'm off now, can't wait!

 

Sorry OP for highjacking your thread!

 

I think that's why I like flying too. It's something like "here is a very dangerous machine, make it do what you want it to, if you f*ck it up you're gonna die, good luck". And the machine doesn't care whether you pass or fail, or find it too hard or too easy, or can't grasp the engineering and the "feel" at the same time, it just "is". You can get in it and take off, or not, up to you. There's something very powerful about all that, perfect mix of responsibility for yourself and whoever is with you, control in the form of manipulating the machine itself, and humbleness/some other word I fail to think of regarding weather and the limits of your ability, etc.

[joystickd]

Then you are an exception

I guess that's because I been lied to a lot of my life about things that I have a zero tolerance for lies even little white ones. Well think about this you are concerned with "fragile ego" well imagine the reaction after realizing they have been lied to. It will be a more intense reaction than telling the truth from the beginning.

[Radu]

I could answer, but I don't believe it is relevant to my issue.

 

The 'f' word isn't part of my vocabulary.

 

There are people who get stuff done. And people who don't.

 

There are people who whine, and people who (even if they don't like it), acknowledge it, adapt, and carry on.

 

I wanted to know your dating range, and i also believe that the job can affect the person over time. You do end up spending at least 40hs a week on it, it's bound to change you.

 

Overall, i really am not sure if you were mean to me or not ...

 

PS: You are in management.

Something real, numbers, logic ...

[Woggle]

One thing men hate is feeling disposable in a relationship and women with the kind of traits you mention tend to make men feel like that even if they don't mean to. Men tend to invest emotionally when we truly that a woman is invested and doesn't have one foot out with a take it or leave it attitude towards a man. Men tend to go for trophy wife types because they don't give off that I don't need a man vibe. Men are just as scared as women as opening themselves up and that is where that cold hearted facade comes from.

[RedRobin]

Most men care about intimacy. I think the trouble for most people is finding someone compatible with their set of beliefs, values and have the approach to dating and relationships. Have your guy friends ever offered to fix you up with someone they know that is more along the lines of someone that maybe more compatible with you?

 

Yes, both my male and female friends have introduced me to people.

 

2 out of 3 were complete disasters. I don't think my friends knew the guys all that well. They were just people they happened to know who were single.

 

The third guy I thought had real potential. I was rather mystified about that one. Just found out last week that the guy wasn't really divorced.

 

GET THIS! He told my friend he was 'SINGLE'... but he really was just 'SEPARATED'... not divorced. He's still going through that process... but my spidey sense was up on that one. He is the one my older and wiser friend patted me on the back about... because neither one of us got the whole story on that one.

 

(um... other posters on this thread... or lurkers... if your divorce isn't final, you ARE NOT single!!)

 

If I knew he wasn't divorced, I would not have agreed to meet him. So, guess what? He lost a chance for anything in the future with me if/when his divorce IS final.