Frank discussion with my guy friends

[RedRobin]

Rather than do an update of my prior thread...

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/317324-why-having-male-friends-better-than-having-relationship-them

 

I figured that I'd share the feedback from my very close male friends about their perception of me.

 

Yea, yea. This is not surprising to some of you. Please resist the urge to pile on. K?

 

UPDATE:

 

In the last two weeks, I've spent time with 4 male friends (and their wives/girlfriends). Since the time I posted the original thread, I can tell you I will never give up my male friends. They are true blue. They have helped me through so many hard times (and I have with them too). Some of these friendships have lasted longer than most of my romances.

 

Why the new thread???

 

I've recently met someone I'm really drawn to, but I'm being very cautious. I've also rejected alot of men recently too... rather quickly. In doing the post-mortem with my friends, nearly all of them said my intuition is dead on (nice!) but they also had some constructive feed back for me.

 

They tell me I'm very discerning. That I have very clear ideas about what I want in terms of behavior and values. Ok, great. I like that. I asked my older and wiser friend if he thought I was mean. He said "No, you are fair and firm. As you should be."

 

He actually thought I gave some of these guys too much of the benefit of the doubt. I agree with this some... I'm trying to do my best to keep an open mind about alot of things... which means I come across situations where we are really NOT compatible.

 

What bothered me a little was this...

 

They all pretty much said that a guy doesn't know what I would dump them for. That I don't cut them alot of slack, and if I see indications of certain behavior, they are quickly cut off. More than one man has told me that I scare the sh*t out of them (in their vulnerable moments they say this). I'm not happy about this. I cut people off rather coldly if something about their character turns me off... no matter what my feelings are or how much attraction I have for them. My friends tell me that I have very firm ideas of what I think is 'right' and don't have patience for other viewpoints (yes, I know. DUH! No piling on!! If you feel the need to comment, I'm happy to entertain reasons WHY this is... not the fact that it is... I already figured this out).

 

My female friends say the same thing. That they see I can easily (or what appears to be easily) snip someone off. Ouch.

 

I know this about me. This is one reason why I've taken to getting to know men in groups or through friends. If they are with me one-on-one I'm inclined to see things in a narrow perspective. If I see them in other settings, I'm more inclined to view them in a more balanced way (sometimes not always to their benefit, TBH).

 

So... the guy I"m interested in. I've observed him from 'afar' for a little while. When I'm around him I feel peaceful and calm. Content and happy. He's not pushing for anything. Right now, I'm just showing up at places I know he'll be. He seems a little cautious too. We've had some really nice conversations, walked through the park, had a drink.

 

We come from completely different walks of life. I think there is a part of him that is thinking "what the heck is a girl like this doing with me". He said that. I'm thinking I really just like his calm, yet lively demeanor.

 

He's a cancer survivor, so maybe that has something to do with it. The people I know who have faced death...either through their own experience or from someone they were very close to... have this quality.

 

I don't want to blow it.

Edited July 18, 2012 by RedRobin

[zengirl]

I don't know you, but I could see that trait about you. You have what I'd call a lot of 'yang' energy, you seem like a doer, and thus you will use external ways to protect yourself: cutting people off, for instance. If you want to change that behavior, the easiest way is building your internal strength and ability to deal with people's 'bad behavior' and see it in a more dynamic way. For me, that was something done through teaching. The more I've taught, the more understanding I've become, but also the stronger internally I've become so there is no need to 'cut people off' immediately. People get chances. People get clear boundaries. It's hard for someone to really deeply get to me and shake me because I'm stronger inside, so I have no need for the walls outside.

 

I don't think it's necessarily bad to cut people off if you're getting feedback that they're the right people to have cut off. It's just a trait. Others may see it as threatening, but unless it's directly hindering you, there's no need to change it just because it's not a common female trait (it is a more masculine way to deal with such things - men commonly do that). If you want to increase warmth, I could suggest increasing your 'yin' energy. Have you ever read the Tao of Dating for Women? It's a mixed bag, but it talks a lot about yin and yang energy for women in life and dating. It seems like you're a bit of a ball-buster in your day-to-day life, RR, and a woman who gets things done, which encourages you to build your yang energy, perhaps at the expense of some of your yin energy.

[mickleb]

Hey RR.

 

I can't tell you why you're so exacting with men but that could be a symptom of some kind of passive commitment phobia. It's okay to find things about guys unappealing but, really, you should discuss any issues before you cut things off, you owe it to them and to yourself. It sounds as though you could be doing this too soon if you are prepared to give friends more slack because you're able to observe them in a variety of settings. Who knows how your perception might've changed if you were able to do this with some of the guys you've dated?

 

The other question I have is about new guy. I'm glad you've found someone attractive to hang out with! Other than the (tbh, odd) comment about 'what is a girl like this doing with me?', what indications has he given that he sees you as date/gf potential?

[RedRobin]

I don't know you, but I could see that trait about you. You have what I'd call a lot of 'yang' energy, you seem like a doer, and thus you will use external ways to protect yourself: cutting people off, for instance. If you want to change that behavior, the easiest way is building your internal strength and ability to deal with people's 'bad behavior' and see it in a more dynamic way.

 

yes, I agree with this. For a very long time, I feel that my open minded-ness was really more theoretical than hands-on... if you get the jyst.

 

It is taking me awhile to reconcile those things that truly have long-term implications that I can't deal with... and learning how to reject people in a way that doesn't disrespect them or myself.

 

For me, that was something done through teaching. The more I've taught, the more understanding I've become, but also the stronger internally I've become so there is no need to 'cut people off' immediately. People get chances. People get clear boundaries. It's hard for someone to really deeply get to me and shake me because I'm stronger inside, so I have no need for the walls outside.

 

Funny that you mention that... since I've taken on a similar role, I've seen changes like that in myself too.

 

Have you ever read the Tao of Dating for Women? It's a mixed bag, but it talks a lot about yin and yang energy for women in life and dating. It seems like you're a bit of a ball-buster in your day-to-day life, RR, and a woman who gets things done, which encourages you to build your yang energy, perhaps at the expense of some of your yin energy.

 

I haven't read that book. I'll take a look.

 

One thing I felt very strange about when I was married was a disconnect between who I was at home, and who I was at work. I sought (and to some extent) still seek integration in both areas of life. There are days when I definately feel like I have, or am expected to have, a split personality.

 

probably why I started this thread

 

thanks for the insights!

[RedRobin]

Hey RR.

 

I can't tell you why you're so exacting with men but that could be a symptom of some kind of passive commitment phobia. It's okay to find things about guys unappealing but, really, you should discuss any issues before you cut things off, you owe it to them and to yourself. It sounds as though you could be doing this too soon if you are prepared to give friends more slack because you're able to observe them in a variety of settings. Who knows how your perception might've changed if you were able to do this with some of the guys you've dated?

 

The other question I have is about new guy. I'm glad you've found someone attractive to hang out with! Other than the (tbh, odd) comment about 'what is a girl like this doing with me?', what indications has he given that he sees you as date/gf potential?

 

I'm afraid my commitment-phobia is more than passive.... even though I can say without a shred of reticence that I really enjoyed being married and committed despite how things turned out.

 

I think what I fear most is hurting someone else or one or both of us becoming like a parasite or lazy in the relationship.

 

What about this interaction makes me think he is interested in more? Feminine intuition. A certain pull. The way he looks at me.

 

His comment came when we were walking past a swanky event and some of the people were checking us out. He joked "they are probably wondering what a girl like that is doing with a biker."

 

I laughed too because I wasn't dressed like a 'biker', yet I am.

 

...and there is the disconnect. There are hobbies that I do and enjoy... but are not fully integrated into my whole being. Like, I LOVE driving motorcycles. I LOVE dancing ballet. Am I a ballerina? No. Do I get all shyte faced and go to biker bars and f*ck random dudes (or whatever the stereotype is). NO!

 

I'm also realistic enough to know that there ARE bikers who have a past, who have done some crazy stuff or are still involved in that. Those are the men I"m wary of.

 

What we do for a living is also alot different. I have blue-collar roots, but put myself through school and am fairly high up in certain circles. He is blue-collar.

 

I love blue-collar values and people. Those are my roots. I don't like some of the other things I've witnessed come with that. I'm bridging two worlds here. The more refined and their distaste for the hoi ploii... and my 'home'. I don't want to be judged by him either. I do what I do because I love it. Not because I'm trying to impress anyone.

 

I'm screening for character first. That isn't a function of who your parents are, what one does for a living and how much money one makes... although I get it that alot of men feel pressure that way. For me, it's all about the choices one makes... how they've managed the challenges in life. I'm curious about him. Right now, I'm content to just be around him and see how things develop.

[confusedgirlhere]

If they are with me one-on-one I'm inclined to see things in a narrow perspective. If I see them in other settings, I'm more inclined to view them in a more balanced way (sometimes not always to their benefit, TBH).

 

This sounds like it could be due to cautiousness. It's easier to feel emotionally safe if you're in a group. It's more emotionally claustrophobic one on one.

 

The thing is, nobody is perfect. Even someone with really good character could have one or two things that give you pause. I love helping other people, but due to being in a helping profession, there's some tendencies we professionals have to develop to not get drained, that make me seem callous. Doesn't mean I really am. But someone who has really strict standards might write me off (wrongly) if they see my professional anti-draining behavior.

 

I also agree with the poster who talked about developing some yin, though it sounds like you're dominant (yang) in your outer life and submissive-ish (yin) in your relationships. I can understand that.

 

It also sounds like you are very self-aware and want to grow as a person, so there is a good chance that you merely being mindful of the tendency to write people off will serve you in not doing that so quickly with this new person.

[carhill]

I don't want to blow it.

 

So go with the flow. It's a walk in the park.

[Emilia]

Thanks RR for posting this, it's a thread that I could have put up here from male friends' points of view through to the yang energy that zen girl mentioned (I'll check out the book too). I also relate to the blue collar interests and some of those values despite having a white collar education and job. My hobby is boxing, I also live in a blue collar area in London - which I find my more comfortable than renting somewhere flashier. I work in the financial district, money wouldn't necessarily be an issue in terms of location.

 

I think the cutting off people part goes back to respect. Whom you can or can't respect. My SO has to be disciplined and focused, my current interest is an amateur boxer who is also unbeaten. His work ethic is phenomenal and while I notice little things that I see as flaws, his overall character impresses me hugely and I don't particularly care about the small stuff. I'm learning to allow what is going on between us to reach its natural conclusion rather than worry that I'm investing too much.

[thatone]

too many coincidences, you have to be who i thought you were.

 

past arguments on LS aside, the guy who has been helping me restore my house is a former Bandido. he's one of the most honest and trustworthy people i know. well beyond just a guy who works for me, we're pretty close friends, i'm also friends with his kids.

 

do i care that i have money and they don't? no. do they? not really. does it matter that we have different social backgrounds? nope.

 

and reading your description of this guy, he may very well not be as worried about all this as you are. his comment about "wondering why a dude like him is with you" could just as well be a little self feeding of his own ego. he may be completely comfortable with you.

[Els]

Well, if you feel a particular trait is setting you back, it's never too late to try to change. Especially with a guy worth trying for, as you think this one is. Take tiny steps - perhaps start with broadening your mind towards viewpoints that you don't necessarily agree with, move on to learning to address conflict gracefully and civilly, etc. Practice, practice, practice. The first step - acknowledging that you have a problem - has already been taken, and that is a HUGE first step that many people stumble at. You've succeeded in that much, already. The rest will come. Good luck.

[RedRobin]

This sounds like it could be due to cautiousness. It's easier to feel emotionally safe if you're in a group. It's more emotionally claustrophobic one on one.

 

I'll have to think about this one...

 

I love helping other people, but due to being in a helping profession, there's some tendencies we professionals have to develop to not get drained, that make me seem callous. Doesn't mean I really am. But someone who has really strict standards might write me off (wrongly) if they see my professional anti-draining behavior.

 

This is a very interesting observation. The idea of needing to put up a wall like that to avoid being drained.

 

It also sounds like you are very self-aware and want to grow as a person, so there is a good chance that you merely being mindful of the tendency to write people off will serve you in not doing that so quickly with this new person.

 

Thanks! I try

[RedRobin]

Thanks RR for posting this, it's a thread that I could have put up here from male friends' points of view through to the yang energy that zen girl mentioned (I'll check out the book too). I also relate to the blue collar interests and some of those values despite having a white collar education and job. My hobby is boxing, I also live in a blue collar area in London - which I find my more comfortable than renting somewhere flashier. I work in the financial district, money wouldn't necessarily be an issue in terms of location.

 

I think the cutting off people part goes back to respect. Whom you can or can't respect. My SO has to be disciplined and focused, my current interest is an amateur boxer who is also unbeaten. His work ethic is phenomenal and while I notice little things that I see as flaws, his overall character impresses me hugely and I don't particularly care about the small stuff. I'm learning to allow what is going on between us to reach its natural conclusion rather than worry that I'm investing too much.

 

You go girl!! (with the boxing!).

 

I bolded this last statement... I think you are onto something here. I'll have to ponder this as well.

[RedRobin]

too many coincidences, you have to be who i thought you were.

 

past arguments on LS aside, the guy who has been helping me restore my house is a former Bandido. he's one of the most honest and trustworthy people i know. well beyond just a guy who works for me, we're pretty close friends, i'm also friends with his kids.

 

do i care that i have money and they don't? no. do they? not really. does it matter that we have different social backgrounds? nope.

 

and reading your description of this guy, he may very well not be as worried about all this as you are. his comment about "wondering why a dude like him is with you" could just as well be a little self feeding of his own ego. he may be completely comfortable with you.

 

I'm sure you know some very interesting people. If I have a twin, that's great! Most of the time I feel like a freak

 

When he said his statement, he was feeling self conscious about his jeans. What was funny, was that until he mentioned it, I didn't even notice what he was wearing. And I laughed and looked down at what I was wearing and joked, "yea, who am *I* fooling?!"

 

It was a good opening for him to tell me about his shirt though. It was a tribute to his friend's son... who was killed in a car accident when a truck crossed over the median line late one night and basically just ran over the car. The shirt said "Don't ever fly faster than your guardian angel". So, it's moments like that...

[RedRobin]

So go with the flow. It's a walk in the park.

 

(deep breath)

 

I will try. Going with the flow that is.

[Ninjainpajamas]

 

I've recently met someone I'm really drawn to, but I'm being very cautious. I've also rejected alot of men recently too... rather quickly. In doing the post-mortem with my friends, nearly all of them said my intuition is dead on (nice!) but they also had some constructive feed back for me.

 

They tell me I'm very discerning. That I have very clear ideas about what I want in terms of behavior and values. Ok, great. I like that. I asked my older and wiser friend if he thought I was mean. He said "No, you are fair and firm. As you should be."

 

He actually thought I gave some of these guys too much of the benefit of the doubt. I agree with this some... I'm trying to do my best to keep an open mind about alot of things... which means I come across situations where we are really NOT compatible.

 

What bothered me a little was this...

 

They all pretty much said that a guy doesn't know what I would dump them for. That I don't cut them alot of slack, and if I see indications of certain behavior, they are quickly cut off. More than one man has told me that I scare the sh*t out of them (in their vulnerable moments they say this). I'm not happy about this. I cut people off rather coldly if something about their character turns me off... no matter what my feelings are or how much attraction I have for them. My friends tell me that I have very firm ideas of what I think is 'right' and don't have patience for other viewpoints (yes, I know. DUH! No piling on!! If you feel the need to comment, I'm happy to entertain reasons WHY this is... not the fact that it is... I already figured this out).

 

My female friends say the same thing. That they see I can easily (or what appears to be easily) snip someone off. Ouch.

 

I know this about me. This is one reason why I've taken to getting to know men in groups or through friends. If they are with me one-on-one I'm inclined to see things in a narrow perspective. If I see them in other settings, I'm more inclined to view them in a more balanced way (sometimes not always to their benefit, TBH).

 

So... the guy I"m interested in. I've observed him from 'afar' for a little while. When I'm around him I feel peaceful and calm. Content and happy. He's not pushing for anything. Right now, I'm just showing up at places I know he'll be. He seems a little cautious too. We've had some really nice conversations, walked through the park, had a drink.

 

We come from completely different walks of life. I think there is a part of him that is thinking "what the heck is a girl like this doing with me". He said that. I'm thinking I really just like his calm, yet lively demeanor.

 

He's a cancer survivor, so maybe that has something to do with it. The people I know who have faced death...either through their own experience or from someone they were very close to... have this quality.

 

I don't want to blow it.

 

I saw this post the other day and wanted to add my opinion to it as I'm typically a fair people reader and maybe I can add a few suggestions.

 

The impression that I get is you are overall a good woman but have a tendency to have your finger over the panic button and have a tendency to have a chip on your shoulder. This leads me to believe that you are a woman who cannot stand being out of control, out-smarted/bested (even If as humans we cannot possibly catch everything) and in person would probably be a very hard person to criticize or say anything negative too because that would seem like sensitive territory, you would carefully hang on every word and take everything straight to heart and once it was said you could not take it back...you may be an impulsive reactor and this is out of fear and a defense mechanism. I think this is why most people that would know you would probably lend a compliment first before criticizing you, I think only those who you trust the most and are willing to be the most vulnerable with would you expose that to someone...otherwise you give off this rigid exterior that may be hard to penetrate because IF a person isn't walking on eggshells or wording everything carefully or doesn't have the "magic" combination you will slam them immediately for that and almost as in a victorious man wave a banner of dominance by shunning these less than worthy men.

 

My perception of this would be that you were very hurt and went through experiences in your life that trained you to function in this way, but I think the self-awareness can be quite low, maybe because you'd refuse to change in some ways or altogether feel it is your entitlement and right to act out in others. I get the feeling that you see dating as a cat and mouse game...a kind of them get them before they get you kind of situation.

 

Therefore If my assessment of you is in some ways correct...I would suggest changing your approach and mentality towards situations and meeting people. Trusting in yourself that you won't be hurt or deceived and stop worrying if this guy "Is good enough for you"...anybody can play that game in the dating world but it just leads to a life of solitude in the romance world because you won't give anyone the chance to tap into who you really are and you won't expose yourself even in layers..it's like one big gargantuan wall to keep others out.

 

I think that comes from learning how to feel and not over-think things. That's a big issue that I personally have, I analyze too much in my own personal relationships because I never wanted to be surprised or let down...I don't really want to play the fool or reveal how sensitive I really am because I already feel so much covered up and protected that I'm too worried about exposing anymore nerves.

 

Try to prevent yourself from forgetting that they are men but they are also people...fathers, sons, cousins, brothers, somebody loves them and they apart of some family and they go through their own individual personal struggles and tragedies. Life is not about judging people and putting the finger and calling out on what people really are, it's about understanding yourself well enough to know what kind of person you know works for you and that is real compatibility, try to be more open about what that is because I can almost guarantee you that the more you open up the more you will be surprised.

 

You can't forget the human factor and having a level of respect for people whether you like them or not, or want to date them or not...you never know what person is coming into your life to teach you more about yourself. Life is about changing and growing, and the more you accept that things that come into your life and the people and circumstances are possibly for a reason, the more flowing process there will be instead of trying to control everything in this life...be open to what this experience has to provide, in whatever that may be, and have confidence in your strength by putting yourself in a vulnerable state...trust in what you have built...It's like training, once you train for something it just becomes automatic in the heat of the moment, you don't think out the whole process, you've got to have faith in yourself to overcome any circumstance regardless of what is put in front of you...even in the dating world.

[RedRobin]

I saw this post the other day and wanted to add my opinion to it as I'm typically a fair people reader and maybe I can add a few suggestions.

 

The impression that I get is you are overall a good woman but have a tendency to have your finger over the panic button and have a tendency to have a chip on your shoulder. This leads me to believe that you are a woman who cannot stand being out of control, out-smarted/bested (even If as humans we cannot possibly catch everything) and in person would probably be a very hard person to criticize or say anything negative too because that would seem like sensitive territory, you would carefully hang on every word and take everything straight to heart and once it was said you could not take it back...you may be an impulsive reactor and this is out of fear and a defense mechanism. I think this is why most people that would know you would probably lend a compliment first before criticizing you, I think only those who you trust the most and are willing to be the most vulnerable with would you expose that to someone...otherwise you give off this rigid exterior that may be hard to penetrate because IF a person isn't walking on eggshells or wording everything carefully or doesn't have the "magic" combination you will slam them immediately for that and almost as in a victorious man wave a banner of dominance by shunning these less than worthy men.

 

My perception of this would be that you were very hurt and went through experiences in your life that trained you to function in this way, but I think the self-awareness can be quite low, maybe because you'd refuse to change in some ways or altogether feel it is your entitlement and right to act out in others. I get the feeling that you see dating as a cat and mouse game...a kind of them get them before they get you kind of situation.

 

Therefore If my assessment of you is in some ways correct...I would suggest changing your approach and mentality towards situations and meeting people. Trusting in yourself that you won't be hurt or deceived and stop worrying if this guy "Is good enough for you"...anybody can play that game in the dating world but it just leads to a life of solitude in the romance world because you won't give anyone the chance to tap into who you really are and you won't expose yourself even in layers..it's like one big gargantuan wall to keep others out.

 

I think that comes from learning how to feel and not over-think things. That's a big issue that I personally have, I analyze too much in my own personal relationships because I never wanted to be surprised or let down...I don't really want to play the fool or reveal how sensitive I really am because I already feel so much covered up and protected that I'm too worried about exposing anymore nerves.

 

Try to prevent yourself from forgetting that they are men but they are also people...fathers, sons, cousins, brothers, somebody loves them and they apart of some family and they go through their own individual personal struggles and tragedies. Life is not about judging people and putting the finger and calling out on what people really are, it's about understanding yourself well enough to know what kind of person you know works for you and that is real compatibility, try to be more open about what that is because I can almost guarantee you that the more you open up the more you will be surprised.

 

You can't forget the human factor and having a level of respect for people whether you like them or not, or want to date them or not...you never know what person is coming into your life to teach you more about yourself. Life is about changing and growing, and the more you accept that things that come into your life and the people and circumstances are possibly for a reason, the more flowing process there will be instead of trying to control everything in this life...be open to what this experience has to provide, in whatever that may be, and have confidence in your strength by putting yourself in a vulnerable state...trust in what you have built...It's like training, once you train for something it just becomes automatic in the heat of the moment, you don't think out the whole process, you've got to have faith in yourself to overcome any circumstance regardless of what is put in front of you...even in the dating world.

 

Thank you for your thoughts... I value your insight and the time you took to write this.

 

I'll consider it carefully.

[irc333]

Funny, I have a pretty good female friend (who at one time, I had an attraction to, but she made it clear she didn't think of me in that way...but I think I stayed friends of her because she was honest with me, AND I didn't really have any expectations).

 

She say when she FIRST goes out with men, in general, it's ALWAYS on a friendship basis. No matter what. She even advises me to take that stance when I like a certain woman, as oppose to asking her out on a date, and showing up with flowers at the front doorstep. (she said some guy friend of her's did that with another woman, and she told him that it was a bad move...and it was.....the woman was scared off by that move).

 

Anyhow....she said it seems that every guy she spent the day with 1-on-1 eventually asked her to take things to a romantic level.

 

There's this one guy that said, "You know what, I think we get along SO well, that how about we start dating?"

 

She was like, "Sorry, no way." (she didn't say that to him, but when I was talking to her on the phone that's what she said) she just kindly, refused.

 

She was even concerned that at one time, that she thought that she might've led me on.

 

I said, "Well, you did ask me for my phone #, so I thought you were interested in me that way"

 

BUt th at was water under the bridge.

 

So in her case, ever MALE friend she started off as friends with, wanted to date her, even me.....but she never felt the same way about them....mostly due to the fact she wasn't physically attracted.

 

She said most of these guys she was friends with were overweight, and just she's not into that.

 

Those guys eventually lost touch with her over time, but I stay in touch occasionally.

 

 

 

Rather than do an update of my prior thread...

 

http://www.loveshack.org/forums/romantic/dating/317324-why-having-male-friends-better-than-having-relationship-them

 

I figured that I'd share the feedback from my very close male friends about their perception of me.

 

Yea, yea. This is not surprising to some of you. Please resist the urge to pile on. K?

 

UPDATE:

 

In the last two weeks, I've spent time with 4 male friends (and their wives/girlfriends). Since the time I posted the original thread, I can tell you I will never give up my male friends. They are true blue. They have helped me through so many hard times (and I have with them too). Some of these friendships have lasted longer than most of my romances.

 

Why the new thread???

 

I've recently met someone I'm really drawn to, but I'm being very cautious. I've also rejected alot of men recently too... rather quickly. In doing the post-mortem with my friends, nearly all of them said my intuition is dead on (nice!) but they also had some constructive feed back for me.

 

They tell me I'm very discerning. That I have very clear ideas about what I want in terms of behavior and values. Ok, great. I like that. I asked my older and wiser friend if he thought I was mean. He said "No, you are fair and firm. As you should be."

 

He actually thought I gave some of these guys too much of the benefit of the doubt. I agree with this some... I'm trying to do my best to keep an open mind about alot of things... which means I come across situations where we are really NOT compatible.

 

What bothered me a little was this...

 

They all pretty much said that a guy doesn't know what I would dump them for. That I don't cut them alot of slack, and if I see indications of certain behavior, they are quickly cut off. More than one man has told me that I scare the sh*t out of them (in their vulnerable moments they say this). I'm not happy about this. I cut people off rather coldly if something about their character turns me off... no matter what my feelings are or how much attraction I have for them. My friends tell me that I have very firm ideas of what I think is 'right' and don't have patience for other viewpoints (yes, I know. DUH! No piling on!! If you feel the need to comment, I'm happy to entertain reasons WHY this is... not the fact that it is... I already figured this out).

 

My female friends say the same thing. That they see I can easily (or what appears to be easily) snip someone off. Ouch.

 

I know this about me. This is one reason why I've taken to getting to know men in groups or through friends. If they are with me one-on-one I'm inclined to see things in a narrow perspective. If I see them in other settings, I'm more inclined to view them in a more balanced way (sometimes not always to their benefit, TBH).

 

So... the guy I"m interested in. I've observed him from 'afar' for a little while. When I'm around him I feel peaceful and calm. Content and happy. He's not pushing for anything. Right now, I'm just showing up at places I know he'll be. He seems a little cautious too. We've had some really nice conversations, walked through the park, had a drink.

 

We come from completely different walks of life. I think there is a part of him that is thinking "what the heck is a girl like this doing with me". He said that. I'm thinking I really just like his calm, yet lively demeanor.

 

He's a cancer survivor, so maybe that has something to do with it. The people I know who have faced death...either through their own experience or from someone they were very close to... have this quality.

 

I don't want to blow it.

[RedRobin]

I saw this post the other day and wanted to add my opinion to it as I'm typically a fair people reader and maybe I can add a few suggestions.

 

The impression that I get is you are overall a good woman but have a tendency to have your finger over the panic button and have a tendency to have a chip on your shoulder.

 

I'd say that was definately true in the recent past... I was dealing with a difficult work/personal situation (not related to romance) that left me very jaded about people for awhile.

 

TBH, it was alot like eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil...

 

Like taking the 'red pill' in the Matrix.... except noone told me beforehand that was what I was doing. I only realized it after the fact...

 

"You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." -Morpheus

 

I want my innocence back. I didn't knowingly choose the 'red pill'... but I'm forced to live with the knowledge 'it' gave me.

 

This leads me to believe that you are a woman who cannot stand being out of control, out-smarted/bested (even If as humans we cannot possibly catch everything)

 

yes, I'm a typical over-achiever in that respect. I read this book when considering going to Harvard... It gave me alot of insight into others like me...although I don't purport to be as accomplished as the author...

 

http://www.amazon.com/Ahead-Curve-Harvard-Business-School/dp/1594201757

 

After reading the book, I chose not to attend. I got all the insight I needed without the loans.

 

and in person would probably be a very hard person to criticize or say anything negative too because that would seem like sensitive territory, you would carefully hang on every word and take everything straight to heart and once it was said you could not take it back...you may be an impulsive reactor and this is out of fear and a defense mechanism.

 

To some extent, yes. Ballet helped me with this. She's a very tough teacher, and one is obliged to continue to focus no matter how tough and not-nice her message is.

 

On the other hand, my quest for self-knowledge has sometimes gone overboard... to the point where I take all comers. Not good.

 

I think this is why most people that would know you would probably lend a compliment first before criticizing you, I think only those who you trust the most and are willing to be the most vulnerable with would you expose that to someone...otherwise you give off this rigid exterior that may be hard to penetrate because IF a person isn't walking on eggshells or wording everything carefully or doesn't have the "magic" combination you will slam them immediately for that and almost as in a victorious man wave a banner of dominance by shunning these less than worthy men.

 

Having a rigid exterior... or at least an exterior that appears open but is really closed... is something that anyone in my profession is required to develop.

 

It is a quality that men are rewarded for... not so much women.

 

Women are tasked with developing a split personality in order to be successful in both their professional and personal lives. It is something I complained about up thread.

 

The only women I've witnessed who have pulled this off are with men they knew before they became successful/accomplished... IMHO, this issue comes from men...not women. Most successful women I know aren't out to prove anything to the men they want to have relationships with. It is the guys who have to climb on top and keep punching them in the face to get them to 'know their place'.... and it happens in big ways and small that affect intimacy.

 

It is the men who need to wave banners of dominance... and come up with reasons why they are 'better' than women.... It isn't coming from me.

 

I don't wave any banners. Most of the time I'm very disappointed when I have to shun them... and shake my head at their silly power games and insecurity. I used to take it personally. I don't anymore.

 

My perception of this would be that you were very hurt and went through experiences in your life that trained you to function in this way, but I think the self-awareness can be quite low, maybe because you'd refuse to change in some ways or altogether feel it is your entitlement and right to act out in others. I get the feeling that you see dating as a cat and mouse game...a kind of them get them before they get you kind of situation.

 

We've all been hurt by something.

 

No, I really don't think I view dating as a cat and mouse game. I don't view dating as a game at all... and tend to avoid those who do.

 

Although, I'm obliged to acknowledge one thing.. the state of dating and relationships these days... How few people seem to be looking for LTRs and just date casually.

 

I'm pretty pragmatic and have adapted to a great many things in life. I expect that eventually (perhaps sooner, rather than later), I'll simply choose to reserve emotional connection for family/friends and just 'use' men for casual sex and dump them when I get bored.

 

I'm capable of it. I've just chosen not to go there. That seems to be the direction the world is heading... so perhaps I'll just adapt.

 

Therefore If my assessment of you is in some ways correct...I would suggest changing your approach and mentality towards situations and meeting people. Trusting in yourself that you won't be hurt or deceived and stop worrying if this guy "Is good enough for you"...anybody can play that game in the dating world but it just leads to a life of solitude in the romance world because you won't give anyone the chance to tap into who you really are and you won't expose yourself even in layers..it's like one big gargantuan wall to keep others out.

 

I think that comes from learning how to feel and not over-think things. That's a big issue that I personally have, I analyze too much in my own personal relationships because I never wanted to be surprised or let down...I don't really want to play the fool or reveal how sensitive I really am because I already feel so much covered up and protected that I'm too worried about exposing anymore nerves.

 

Try to prevent yourself from forgetting that they are men but they are also people...fathers, sons, cousins, brothers, somebody loves them and they apart of some family and they go through their own individual personal struggles and tragedies. Life is not about judging people and putting the finger and calling out on what people really are, it's about understanding yourself well enough to know what kind of person you know works for you and that is real compatibility, try to be more open about what that is because I can almost guarantee you that the more you open up the more you will be surprised.

 

You can't forget the human factor and having a level of respect for people whether you like them or not, or want to date them or not...you never know what person is coming into your life to teach you more about yourself. Life is about changing and growing, and the more you accept that things that come into your life and the people and circumstances are possibly for a reason, the more flowing process there will be instead of trying to control everything in this life...be open to what this experience has to provide, in whatever that may be, and have confidence in your strength by putting yourself in a vulnerable state...trust in what you have built...It's like training, once you train for something it just becomes automatic in the heat of the moment, you don't think out the whole process, you've got to have faith in yourself to overcome any circumstance regardless of what is put in front of you...even in the dating world.

 

I get a sense you are telling yourself this (almost as a mantra) as much as you are telling me this.

 

I've jumped off of tall buildings... I ride fast motorcycles (among other things). My tolerance for risk taking is higher than most.

 

However, some things are not worth the risk... or must be entered into carefully to avoid getting killed. That much I've learned. I've been like Danica Patrick (in the emotional sense).

 

 

I'm getting closer to finding the balance.

 

However, I'm also losing patience... my lack of patience is with the dating culture. Not with myself. I'm more and more inclined to go down this other path and stop trying to engage men for 'relationships' at all.

 

My male friendships have lasted longer than most of my romances. Maybe I'll just stick with that. Emotional connection with my male friends.... casual sex/dating for the rest. I expect a number of men will be hurt in that process... which is probably the only reason I haven't pursued that path so far.

 

I already know I'm capable of cutting men off (romantically) no matter how I feel about them... If I could just liberate my conscience like so many men do with their sexuality... I'm sure I could pull it off. It is certainly tempting.

Edited July 23, 2012 by RedRobin

[RedRobin]

So in her case, ever MALE friend she started off as friends with, wanted to date her, even me.....but she never felt the same way about them....mostly due to the fact she wasn't physically attracted.

 

I don't get that vibe from my male friends. Maybe it went through their heads at one time.... not sure.

 

I get the sense that they aren't attracted to me romantically either. It seems to work for all of us.

[seachangeoflove]

RR, regardless of what I posted in another thread, I read all of this and can feel much sympathy with you.

 

 

I am very sucessfull in a man-dominated industry. I am 36 and almost all of my peers are men over 40 with wives and kids. We all make very good money and most of them married the trophy wife and are now regretting it, many of them cheat (and try with me) most are already on wife #2 and many on #3.... Im the outlier in being never married, no kids.

 

I do a lot of sports and have mostly male friends. I've had relationships only to find out 3 months in he's got a wife and kids. That his "apartment" was really the garage. I could tell ten stories like that one too, meeting men online who were married. I live in a major city where no one has to worry that much about reputation as you go on about in many threads.

 

I pretty much put up walls so high NO one is getting in. I don't want them too. I hold out hope, but not much.

 

I'm way past where you are and am at the "only date casually" I don't want kids, never have.

 

This is advice given to me, and I've cherished it.

 

 

No one person can fill all your needs...Emotional, sexual, romantic, business, financial etc...

 

 

Find hot losers and have sex with them, make fantastic male friends etc.

 

 

Most of my male "equals" want a wife/mom OR they want to play. They don't want to settle down with someone who makes as much money as them or has the same ambitions as them.

 

 

If you want to put your career on the back burner, then perhaps. but still unlikely.

[thatone]

Funny, I have a pretty good female friend (who at one time, I had an attraction to, but she made it clear she didn't think of me in that way...but I think I stayed friends of her because she was honest with me, AND I didn't really have any expectations).

 

She say when she FIRST goes out with men, in general, it's ALWAYS on a friendship basis. No matter what. She even advises me to take that stance when I like a certain woman, as oppose to asking her out on a date, and showing up with flowers at the front doorstep. (she said some guy friend of her's did that with another woman, and she told him that it was a bad move...and it was.....the woman was scared off by that move).

 

Anyhow....she said it seems that every guy she spent the day with 1-on-1 eventually asked her to take things to a romantic level.

 

There's this one guy that said, "You know what, I think we get along SO well, that how about we start dating?"

 

She was like, "Sorry, no way." (she didn't say that to him, but when I was talking to her on the phone that's what she said) she just kindly, refused.

 

She was even concerned that at one time, that she thought that she might've led me on.

 

I said, "Well, you did ask me for my phone #, so I thought you were interested in me that way"

 

BUt th at was water under the bridge.

 

So in her case, ever MALE friend she started off as friends with, wanted to date her, even me.....but she never felt the same way about them....mostly due to the fact she wasn't physically attracted.

 

She said most of these guys she was friends with were overweight, and just she's not into that.

 

Those guys eventually lost touch with her over time, but I stay in touch occasionally.

 

she lied to you. if you would've been sexually attractive to her she would've been all over you, and would not have insisted on being 'friends'.

 

not that it's entirely her fault. a lot of that is our culture demanding that women be afraid and submissive at all times. such cultural things don't affect men nearly as much since men are applauded for not being afraid and submissive.

 

 

 

TBH, it was alot like eating from the tree of Knowledge of Good and Evil...

 

Like taking the 'red pill' in the Matrix.... except noone told me beforehand that was what I was doing. I only realized it after the fact...

 

"You take the blue pill – the story ends, you wake up in your bed and believe whatever you want to believe. You take the red pill – you stay in Wonderland and I show you how deep the rabbit-hole goes." -Morpheus

 

I want my innocence back. I didn't knowingly choose the 'red pill'... but I'm forced to live with the knowledge 'it' gave me.

 

which is why i always leave. i left jobs when i was younger every couple of years. i left the family i own businesses with to move away from them when the business slowed down, i cash my share of the checks from afar.

 

i always left relationships too. at the first hint that a girl i met was going to hinder my desire to do something or go somewhere i just checked out. and to be honest i'll always be that way. as happy as i am with the girl i'm with now, and as much as we have in common, and as much as we want to do the same things, it'll have to stay that way. if she ever wants to retreat back to suburban 9 to 5 lifestyles, i won't go with her.

 

in effect i had to find someone who wanted what i wanted and was willing to leave her current life to get it.

 

my end of that bargain is paying for all of it.

 

selfish? sure. demanding? yeah. unreasonable? at this point, not for her, but for most women absolutely.

 

doesn't change anything, i am who i am and it is what it is.

Having a rigid exterior... or at least an exterior that appears open but is really closed... is something that anyone in my profession is required to develop.

 

It is a quality that men are rewarded for... not so much women.

 

Women are tasked with developing a split personality in order to be successful in both their professional and personal lives. It is something I complained about up thread.

 

The only women I've witnessed who have pulled this off are with men they knew before they became successful/accomplished... IMHO, this issue comes from men...not women. Most successful women I know aren't out to prove anything to the men they want to have relationships with. It is the guys who have to climb on top and keep punching them in the face to get them to 'know their place'.... and it happens in big ways and small that affect intimacy.

 

It is the men who need to wave banners of dominance... and come up with reasons why they are 'better' than women.... It isn't coming from me.

 

I don't wave any banners. Most of the time I'm very disappointed when I have to shun them... and shake my head at their silly power games and insecurity. I used to take it personally. I don't anymore.

 

men get their sense of confidence from all sorts of things. not all of them need money/professional accolades to get women, obviously. i think you're assuming that you've lost the dude you started the thread about but haven't lost him yet. that is one thing men do have an advantage over you about. men don't care what other people think of them. the female desire to please other people is not something men possess. men freely pick and choose who they care to please, and the rest can die in a fire for all we care.

 

I'm pretty pragmatic and have adapted to a great many things in life. I expect that eventually (perhaps sooner, rather than later), I'll simply choose to reserve emotional connection for family/friends and just 'use' men for casual sex and dump them when I get bored.

 

I'm capable of it. I've just chosen not to go there. That seems to be the direction the world is heading... so perhaps I'll just adapt.

 

you can, men do this too, but it's natural for men, because sex doesn't really mean anything to us. we don't have to 'work' at it, i suspect you would have to work at it, and work isn't synonymous with fun for most people.

 

I've jumped off of tall buildings... I ride fast motorcycles (among other things). My tolerance for risk taking is higher than most.

 

However, some things are not worth the risk... or must be entered into carefully to avoid getting killed. That much I've learned. I've been like Danica Patrick (in the emotional sense).

 

 

I'm getting closer to finding the balance.

 

However, I'm also losing patience... my lack of patience is with the dating culture. Not with myself. I'm more and more inclined to go down this other path and stop trying to engage men for 'relationships' at all.

 

My male friendships have lasted longer than most of my romances. Maybe I'll just stick with that. Emotional connection with my male friends.... casual sex/dating for the rest. I expect a number of men will be hurt in that process... which is probably the only reason I haven't pursued that path so far.

 

I already know I'm capable of cutting men off (romantically) no matter how I feel about them... If I could just liberate my conscience like so many men do with their sexuality... I'm sure I could pull it off. It is certainly tempting.

 

See point above. If you want to go the path that men travel, you have to not care. At the time I met my current gf I had 3 other options. One a FWB arrangement I cut off, another one who was (still is) randomly contacting me and suggesting we go out together (she works for me), and a third looking to cheat on her husband with a guy with money, as far as I can tell, nothing more. I don't lose a moment's sleep over any of them. All but the third are good people, particularly the FWB woman. But I simply cut her off and walked away, and I don't care if she cried on her own any more than the bit she cried in front of me when I told her I wasn't going to see her anymore.

 

That's how you have to be. That's how men do those things. If you can that's fine, and if you can't that's fine as well. But it's not something I think all women can do (by no fault of their own, their brains just aren't wired that way).

Edited July 23, 2012 by thatone

[RedRobin]

RR, regardless of what I posted in another thread, I read all of this and can feel much sympathy with you.

 

 

I am very sucessfull in a man-dominated industry. I am 36 and almost all of my peers are men over 40 with wives and kids. We all make very good money and most of them married the trophy wife and are now regretting it, many of them cheat (and try with me) most are already on wife #2 and many on #3.... Im the outlier in being never married, no kids.

 

I do a lot of sports and have mostly male friends. I've had relationships only to find out 3 months in he's got a wife and kids. That his "apartment" was really the garage. I could tell ten stories like that one too, meeting men online who were married. I live in a major city where no one has to worry that much about reputation as you go on about in many threads.

 

I pretty much put up walls so high NO one is getting in. I don't want them too. I hold out hope, but not much.

 

I'm way past where you are and am at the "only date casually" I don't want kids, never have.

 

This is advice given to me, and I've cherished it.

 

 

No one person can fill all your needs...Emotional, sexual, romantic, business, financial etc...

 

 

Find hot losers and have sex with them, make fantastic male friends etc.

 

 

Most of my male "equals" want a wife/mom OR they want to play. They don't want to settle down with someone who makes as much money as them or has the same ambitions as them.

 

 

If you want to put your career on the back burner, then perhaps. but still unlikely.

 

I don't tend to put men in boxes as 'losers'. If they have good character, that's all I care about.

 

Problem is, they are the ones who get insecure about things. And find ways to take it out on me rather than deal with their own insecurity about their own life and choices... no matter what I do. THAT I can't tolerate.

 

So, when I think of having sex with hot 'losers'... what comes to mind is having sex with men I don't respect much as human beings... not anything to do with income or ambition.

 

I bolded the last statement.... you are right. Even putting the career on the back burner doesn't work. I tried that awhile. Because we'd have to eliminate all of those traits that got us here. Taking away the 'title' doesn't change that. Also, we'd eventually get bored and move on anyway. Wouldn't we?

 

So, yes... I'm very tempted to just post a profile online.... with the age everyone tells me I look (5-10 years younger than I am)... and go from there.

 

Because one thing I've definately learned from dating IRL. Men go after who they are attracted to. If you aren't interested in having kids, they don't really care what your age is. They just need an ego boost and something to tell their friends/family. So let them think they are alot older or the same age, even when they aren't. Everyone is happy.

 

... and the younger ones? They wouldn't care either, as long as the sex is good. I've turned them away too, because I'm not interested in anything casual.

 

So, we'll see.

 

The guy I mentioned up thread? Interesting fellow. I have my doubts though after our get together this weekend. He had lots of negative things to say about the other single men in his group (cock-blocking??)... All I told him was that I didn't think his friends would appreciate him sharing private knowledge about them... and that I'd have to get to know the other folks in the riding group personally before forming an opinion about them.

 

Otherwise, we had a nice time...and for the third 'date', he suggested I come over to his house to watch a movie. Oh jeez. Here we go again. :rolleyes:

 

Movie, my *ss.

[thatone]

Re-read all of my points above, those other men don't care about him if he doesn't like them and they don't like him. He can call them baby seal clubbers and they would't lose a moment's sleep over it, unless they were competing for you. And in that case the only reason they would care is if some statement or observation gives someone the upper hand.

 

Men don't care what other men think, unless the end of that road benefits them in some way.

 

And yeah, the ole movie trick, lol. Then again the dude doesn't know any other way, from what you tell us. What do you expect him to say? If you expect him to initiate dates and pick things to do, he is going to fall back on things he has done before. If you want different you have to be different too, and see if he can still be comfortable with you making decisions and him following, right?

 

As for the rest...if you wind up just having men around for sex...

 

In short, can you not care what people think, and if friends judge you harshly for a choice you make can you turn your back on those friends and not feel guilty over it?

 

I can, that's how I live the life you're living, but I'm happy with it (that and it's socially acceptable for men).

Edited July 23, 2012 by thatone

[Emilia]

 

See point above. If you want to go the path that men travel, you have to not care. At the time I met my current gf I had 3 other options. One a FWB arrangement I cut off, another one who was (still is) randomly contacting me and suggesting we go out together (she works for me), and a third looking to cheat on her husband with a guy with money, as far as I can tell, nothing more. I don't lose a moment's sleep over any of them. All but the third are good people, particularly the FWB woman. But I simply cut her off and walked away, and I don't care if she cried on her own any more than the bit she cried in front of me when I told her I wasn't going to see her anymore.

 

That's how you have to be. That's how men do those things. If you can that's fine, and if you can't that's fine as well. But it's not something I think all women can do (by no fault of their own, their brains just aren't wired that way).

 

Women can be callous too but it is true that it feels alien to us. Partly, because men expect us to be the softness they come home to. I don't see them the same way as the OP does, I don't think it's about dominance. It's more about the little boy going home to mum a lot of the time.

[RedRobin]

That's how you have to be. That's how men do those things. If you can that's fine, and if you can't that's fine as well. But it's not something I think all women can do (by no fault of their own, their brains just aren't wired that way).

 

I don't know about that last statement (about women not being wired that way). Some for sure... lots of women can though. Our culture has some pretty strong barriers to them acting it out though.

 

Anyway, it wasn't because of labels or doing what others think I should do that made me choose my past and current path. I went down that path because the other one (casual sex or sex outside of a relationship) seemed empty and wasn't appealing.

 

In my work, I'm obliged to be somewhat cutthroat and unemotional. Up until recently, I've managed to keep those two areas of my life separated and have tried to keep the vulnerable and open side reserved for a relationship.

 

But I'm getting to the point where I don't care anymore about trying to do that.