Relationship Counseling for A/EMR

July 17, 2012

In another thread, an interesting concept was brought up. A poster stated that:

I see EMRs as no different from other relationships. It's not like NC is recommended instead of marriage counseling to save a marriage where you are having problems. Why would you part to make it better?

I personally don't see an EMR as no different from other relationships. However, I understand some people do. In this case, has any one here MM/MW or OW/OM/fOW/fOW ever gone to counseling with your affair partner in order to strengthen your relationship?

How did it work out? What did your counselor advise you? Did they ignore the fact that it was an A and advised you as you imagine they would a married couple or a couple where no one is committed elsewhere?

If you have not, would you ever seek couple's counseling within your A? Why or why not?

July 17, 2012

My MM came with me once simply because my therapist asked if he would and when I asked him, he said yes. It gave my therapist a better picture of what he was dealing with. His going to my session wasn't in an effort to strengthen OUR relationship as much as it was to give my therapist insight as to OUR relationship so he could help me OUT of it. MM didn't know that but agreed nonetheless.

MM validated everything that I had already told him so I'm not sure what good it did. I wanted my therapist to see that it was MORE than just an affair but as OW, we ALL see it that way. I know now that's all it was and ever would be... an affair. As long as that's what you're in, no amount of therapy can change that. If he leaves and THEN decides to seek therapy with you, than that's an entirely different story.

July 17, 2012

In another thread, an interesting concept was brought up. A poster stated that:

I personally don't see an EMR as no different from other relationships. However, I understand some people do. In this case, has any one here MM/MW or OW/OM/fOW/fOW ever gone to counseling with your affair partner in order to strengthen your relationship?

How did it work out? What did your counselor advise you? Did they ignore the fact that it was an A and advised you as you imagine they would a married couple or a couple where no one is committed elsewhere?

If you have not, would you ever seek couple's counseling within your A? Why or why not?

Yes we did and yes I think it was helpful. It was helpful for our relationship. While it being an affair wasn't ignored, our relationship, needs, etc. were the focal point. There were discussions about what he wanted in his life, fears, etc.

We have continued therapy through the separation and divorce to continue working through any issues and strengthening our communication and conflict resolution.

I am very pro therapy.

July 18, 2012

I have to say...I didn't think this thread would generate a response from anyone who actually had this happen.

My first thoughts were that I cannot imagine a WS choosing therapy to help a relationship...simply because , well...the solution to the problems with the marriage was to have an affair. But I know that's general. The above posters have interesting, healthy and valid examples of why it could be a great idea.

Still, you have to admit that it does sound a bit like bringing a bottle of vodka to an AA meeting.

July 18, 2012

I am very pro therapy myself and pre-marital couple's counseling.

I am just curious about how a therapy session goes with a couple in an affair and how relationship therapists address that dynamic.

July 18, 2012

My MM came with me once simply because my therapist asked if he would and when I asked him, he said yes. It gave my therapist a better picture of what he was dealing with. His going to my session wasn't in an effort to strengthen OUR relationship as much as it was to give my therapist insight as to OUR relationship so he could help me OUT of it. MM didn't know that but agreed nonetheless.

MM validated everything that I had already told him so I'm not sure what good it did. I wanted my therapist to see that it was MORE than just an affair but as OW, we ALL see it that way. I know now that's all it was and ever would be... an affair. As long as that's what you're in, no amount of therapy can change that. If he leaves and THEN decides to seek therapy with you, than that's an entirely different story.

That's very interesting.

So when your MM came, did he only go once? What was your therapist's advice or assessment?

I'm surprised your MM agreed. That's very interesting as well. I wonder what he expected to gain from it.

July 18, 2012

I never did this, no. I mainly just wanted to comment on the quote:

I see EMRs as no different from other relationships. It's not like NC is recommended instead of marriage counseling to save a marriage where you are having problems. Why would you part to make it better?

I didn't find the thread this came from, or else I would comment there, but NC is not intended to save anything except the individual initiating NC. NC isn't a game or a manipulative tool, it's a healing method you use when you realize the relationship is over. If you're going NC in an effort/hopes of getting someone to chase you down, you're doing it wrong.

I'm sure you know all this, of course. I guess sometimes I like to talk

July 18, 2012

In another thread, an interesting concept was brought up. A poster stated that:

I personally don't see an EMR as no different from other relationships. However, I understand some people do. In this case, has any one here MM/MW or OW/OM/fOW/fOW ever gone to counseling with your affair partner in order to strengthen your relationship?

How did it work out? What did your counselor advise you? Did they ignore the fact that it was an A and advised you as you imagine they would a married couple or a couple where no one is committed elsewhere?

If you have not, would you ever seek couple's counseling within your A? Why or why not?

There was no need for couple's counselling within my affair, but I would have been very happy to participate. I had tried marriage counselling with my ex-wife, and more successfully participated in family counselling with my kids around the separation. During my individual counselling I did discuss the dynamics of the affair quite extensively with my counsellor, who was of the opinion that our relationship dynamic was very healthy in sharp contrast to the dynamic in my marriage, and helped me learn from that.

July 18, 2012

I never did this, no. I mainly just wanted to comment on the quote:
I didn't find the thread this came from, or else I would comment there, but NC is not intended to save anything except the individual initiating NC. NC isn't a game or a manipulative tool, it's a healing method you use when you realize the relationship is over. If you're going NC in an effort/hopes of getting someone to chase you down, you're doing it wrong.

I'm sure you know all this, of course. I guess sometimes I like to talk

NC is a means to separate, clear your head and assess the relationship and where it is or isn't heading.

It is hard, no almost impossible to be objective about a relationship with one we feel we are in love with because our emotions continually override our rational thought.

NC allows the constant stimuli to our emotions to subside so we can really assess the health of the relationship.

Yes, it is a protective healing tool.

July 18, 2012

I disagree with the quote because NC is used at times instead of marriage counselling. It's called separation. Happens all the time.

July 18, 2012

That's very interesting.

So when your MM came, did he only go once? What was your therapist's advice or assessment?

I'm surprised your MM agreed. That's very interesting as well. I wonder what he expected to gain from it.

yes he only came with me once but I never asked him to go again either. My therapist's advice was what MOST people's advice was... He felt that his feelings for me were genuine but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter if the result is him remaining married which was no longer working for ME!!! Whatever his reasons for remaining married, it didn't change the fact that she had him and I didn't.

MM had never seen a therapist before so I was hoping that he would realize that it is beneficial and hopefully seek one himself. That never happened and as much as he kept telling me he really wanted to, he never did. Why would he when he had ME to vent to and bitch and moan about his marriage????

July 18, 2012

Are you still with him heart?

We speak occasionally but have not been with him intimately since January. Very sticky situation with us so intertwined in our community and at work so complete NC is not possible. I wish I could travel back in time and un-do this piece of my life but I guess it happened for a reason.

July 18, 2012

yes he only came with me once but I never asked him to go again either. My therapist's advice was what MOST people's advice was... He felt that his feelings for me were genuine but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter if the result is him remaining married which was no longer working for ME!!! Whatever his reasons for remaining married, it didn't change the fact that she had him and I didn't.

MM had never seen a therapist before so I was hoping that he would realize that it is beneficial and hopefully seek one himself. That never happened and as much as he kept telling me he really wanted to, he never did. Why would he when he had ME to vent to and bitch and moan about his marriage????

LOL yeppp it makes sense.

July 18, 2012

I disagree with the quote because NC is used at times instead of marriage counselling. It's called separation. Happens all the time.

Proper "no contact" is not possible during a separation if there are children involved. "Low contact" perhaps but not "no contact". Which might tell you that your marriage is better dead than alive, as mine was shown to be, but there are other factors involved such as the wellbeing of the children which can't be ignored, and often that is contingent on the emotional condition of the other spouse, so even if you never ever want to see your spouse again sometimes you just have to bite the bullet and put up with it for the greater good.

July 18, 2012

NC isn't a tool implemented or used to improve the health of a relationship. It's a tool used to improve the health/mental well-being of AN INDIVIDUAL.

MC is a tool used to improve the health of a RELATIONSHIP.

Their completely different...and mutually exclusive to boot.

I believe that relationship/marriage counseling can help any troubled relationship....assuming of course that both parties want to fix the situation. A counselor may not know enough to work around the dynamic difference between an affair and an existing marriage...but the basic premises are similar enough it should work.

The reason you see NC recommended here is because there's often a feeling/consensus that the RELATIONSHIP isn't healthy/likely to succeed...and so NC should be implemented to help the INDIVIDUAL posting here deal with the issues on their own...to fix them as an individual...not to repair/rebuild the relationship.

July 18, 2012

I guess, thus far, no one has gone to counseling with their AP as an effort to work on their affair relationship.

As for the differentiation of NC and marriage counseling. I agree. NC is not a tool to make your relationship better or to solve your relationship issues, but rather to distance yourself to clear your head or end a problematic relationship.

In any case a marriage or LTR where you have intertwined lives is clearly different from an A or a normal dating relationship. So what people will and won't put up with, the investment they have, the ties they have differ greatly. That said, the advice of what to do and how to proceed with your problems is going to differ when advising a married versus dating or affair couple. People can beg to differ, but most problems in As are because they are As. There may be other issues and problems but largely those are overshadowed or not seen because of the A complications. For me for example, the only problems and arguments we'd have were all directly linked to it being an A. I think back then I assumed we were such a great match "if only it wasn't an A, we'd never have much to argue about".....that's because the A complications were at the fore...those were the only areas of contention. But I think that was as a result of the dynamic and not at all the reality. Were it not an A...I'd have a truer picture of where we'd disagree and what problems existed. The A allowed for a lot of illusion and for me to feel like everything would have been perfect "if only...". I see a lot of that here as well.

I think there is often an effort to put aside the fact that it is an A and subtract that from a perceived greater relationship. I think this can be problematic as there is almost no way to know, especially when you have a built in obstacle that you both can focus on as the only problem. It is easy to feel like this obstacle is what is preventing everything else from being good...but a lot of people have no idea how the relationship would be, were it not for that dynamic. I am curious about what a counselor, who is met with a couple in an A, would have to say about their issues? Would the counselor also ignore the fact that it is an A and try to just look at it outside of that? Or would it be seen as an inherent structural flaw that colors everything, thus needs to be addressed in order for the relationship to be addressed?

July 18, 2012

I guess, thus far, no one has gone to counseling with their AP as an effort to work on their affair relationship.

You must have missed this reply.

Yes we did and yes I think it was helpful. It was helpful for our relationship. While it being an affair wasn't ignored, our relationship, needs, etc. were the focal point. There were discussions about what he wanted in his life, fears, etc.

We have continued therapy through the separation and divorce to continue working through any issues and strengthening our communication and conflict resolution.

I am very pro therapy.

Perhaps others, like me, had no need for counselling for their affair, because that was not the problematic relationship?

July 18, 2012

You must have missed this reply.

Perhaps others, like me, had no need for counselling for their affair, because that was not the problematic relationship?

Thanks for reminding me, I forgot about that response. I'm interested to know a bit more but not sure if Got It wants to elaborate.

As for others like you...I think you're one of a kind, or at least in the few. I actually mean that with no malice, in case it's misinterpreted. What I know of your story, it's not a story and perspective that most seem to have.

In any case, the larger principle of affair partners seeking counseling for their A, I wonder how common that is in general, from both the participants' side as well as from professionals who see couples.

As for defining which relationship is problematic, I think in a lot of As, it's not so much the relationship only, but the individuals that are dealing with things in a problematic way. I don't think counseling is only for problems but to stave off problems and to get tools to build your relationship. So with that, how does a counselor advice someone in an EMR on how to build a healthy relationship...if they are still attached to one that is unhealthy (if like in your case, your M is the one you deem unhealthy). The fact that an individual is even attempting this seems problematic. If your marriage is the problem, but you're still in it and having an A...then that is not something a counselor should ignore IMO, but why you're doing that will no doubt impact your current R. As you, who you are and how you deal with issues doesn't change just because your partner changes. You have to still do your own work and assessment so that you can have good tools for healthy relationships.

I perhaps need to research any case studies of counselors talking about how they've handled this situation if and when it happens...as it doesn't seem like something very common. I only saw it once, on a television show, and of course it was supposed to be comedic absurdity that a man in an affair was in couple's counseling with his OW. But aside from that, I haven't heard much on how this is handled.

Edited July 18, 2012 by MissBee

July 19, 2012

Very interesting thread MB! I took my xmm to meet with my clairvoyant and she actually channeled his deceased father who told him that he was not following his highest and best path in this lifetime (by staying with his W and not coming to me). I'm sure many will question the whole clairvoyant thing but the point is, that I think counselling / therapy / clairvoyant would be a great idea if someone wanted to extract themselves from an A, or help a fearful mm/mw with the mechanics of leaving their M. Despite what most people think, I do believe that some of these A's are between people who should be together and who are meant to be together. I don't think M should continue if there is no real love or it has flat-lined. Why live a mediocre life with someone you really don't want to be with? Any assistance to move people onto their correct paths in a dignified way, sounds positive to me.

July 19, 2012

Thanks for reminding me, I forgot about that response. I'm interested to know a bit more but not sure if Got It wants to elaborate.

As for others like you...I think you're one of a kind, or at least in the few. I actually mean that with no malice, in case it's misinterpreted. What I know of your story, it's not a story and perspective that most seem to have.

In any case, the larger principle of affair partners seeking counseling for their A, I wonder how common that is in general, from both the participants' side as well as from professionals who see couples.

As for defining which relationship is problematic, I think in a lot of As, it's not so much the relationship only, but the individuals that are dealing with things in a problematic way. I don't think counseling is only for problems but to stave off problems and to get tools to build your relationship. So with that, how does a counselor advice someone in an EMR on how to build a healthy relationship...if they are still attached to one that is unhealthy (if like in your case, your M is the one you deem unhealthy). The fact that an individual is even attempting this seems problematic. If your marriage is the problem, but you're still in it and having an A...then that is not something a counselor should ignore IMO, but why you're doing that will no doubt impact your current R. As you, who you are and how you deal with issues doesn't change just because your partner changes. You have to still do your own work and assessment so that you can have good tools for healthy relationships.

I perhaps need to research any case studies of counselors talking about how they've handled this situation if and when it happens...as it doesn't seem like something very common. I only saw it once, on a television show, and of course it was supposed to be comedic absurdity that a man in an affair was in couple's counseling with his OW. But aside from that, I haven't heard much on how this is handled.

What do you want to know?

Like what Radagast is saying that he didn't feel his AP and he needed therapy dMM and I weren't in a bad spot. I just learned from my marriage how much better therapy is at the beginning of a relationship than at the end of it as you are still just creating your foundation and trying to fix years or decades of poor patterns. So with any serious relationship I am in I would ask for CC. We all can improve different areas of our relationships to make them that much stronger/better.

He has shown to be someone that is interested in and willing to put in a great deal of energy into a relationship. So he was open to the therapy.

I am surprised that this is seen as such a phenomenon. I think there are others in untraditional relationships that attend therapy. I don't think the approach is very different for a therapist to handle the couple's shared concerns and then each individual's issues/concerns.

Many relationships have overlapping circles of the two parties so there are intersecting as well as individual concerns.

Edited July 19, 2012 by Got it

July 19, 2012

I am surprised that this is seen as such a phenomenon. I think there are others in untraditional relationships that attend therapy. I don't think the approach is very different for a therapist to handle the couple's shared concerns and then each individual's issues/concerns.

I suppose I don't define an affair as simply an untraditional relationship and the curiosity is about whether or not most therapist feel like an affair is a healthy, legitimate choice that someone is free to make and so will have no issue dispensing advice towards strengthening the relationship, as it remains an A, or will it be a structure they'd advise their clients to change?

My initial question was based on the premise that an A was no different from any other relationship you'd seek counseling for to strengthen. The comment that sparked it was a comparison of married people not going NC but getting counseling, so likewise why should A partners go NC. My response then was that I don't believe most affair partners go to counseling for their affair and I imagine most counselors would comment on the A aspect of it and not just see it as a normal relationship. You and Radagast's experiences are valid; however, you both are in out relationships, one married, one getting married...so you did change your relationship dynamic from that of an A to a normal relationship. I guess I am more curious about longterm As and counseling and if anyone has/is doing that and whether or not their therapist agrees with the premise that they can indeed strengthen the A as it continues as an A and no change needs to be made to change that dynamic.

July 19, 2012

I suppose I don't define an affair as simply an untraditional relationship and the question is probably do most therapist feel like an affair is a healthy, legitimate choice that someone is free to make and will their advice be towards strengthening the relationship, as it remains an A, or will it be a structure they'd advise their clients to change?

My initial question was based on the premise that an A was no different from any other relationship you'd seek counseling for to strengthen. The comment that sparked it was a comparison of married people not going NC but getting counseling, so likewise why should A partners go NC. My response then was that I don't believe most affair partners go to counseling for their affair and I imagine most counselors would comment on the A aspect of it and not just see it as a normal relationship. You and Radagast's experiences are valid; however, you both are in out relationships, one married, one getting married...so you did change your relationship dynamic from that of an A to a normal relationship. I guess I am more curious about longterm As and counseling and if anyone has/is doing that and whether or not their therapist agrees with the premise that they can indeed strengthen the A as it continues as an A and no change needs to be made to change that dynamic.

Miss Bee - your original post asked about those in an affair, while in the affair, whether they also got counseling. I answered in the affirmative. Our circumstances changed but the beginning of our therapy did not have him divorced or separated.

No the therapist does not disregard that one party is married just like other aspects of the relationship are not ignored. It is looked at based on the context of the relationship as well as looking at it in the bigger picture. A good therapist is not going to morally judge their clients and tell them what to do.

Therapy may have helped him make some decisions and move on by proxy of our counseling. For him, his biggest fear in divorce was his kids and his feelings of growing up with an absentee father. If the kids weren't there there wouldn't have been an affair and a much earlier divorce. But they were, he loves them, he feared for them and for their relationship.

July 19, 2012

Still, you have to admit that it does sound a bit like bringing a bottle of vodka to an AA meeting.

Exactly ..

July 19, 2012

yes he only came with me once but I never asked him to go again either. My therapist's advice was what MOST people's advice was... He felt that his feelings for me were genuine but in the grand scheme of things it doesn't matter if the result is him remaining married which was no longer working for ME!!! Whatever his reasons for remaining married, it didn't change the fact that she had him and I didn't.

I would have told you this for free. Also, IMO it's awful that so-called therapy ($$$) is used in this manner.

The world advises people to seek counseling - too freely.

Much money involved incl that of raising insurance premiums.

July 20, 2012

I waited to post on this until this evening when I could ask my s.i.l., who is a licensed psychiatrist regarding treating an affair couple. I thought she would bust a gut laughing! She stated that a true licensed counselor tries to extricate people from toxic relationships... not encourage them. And she had never seen a nurturing affair dynamic in 20 years of practice. I call bull to anyone who says otherwise.

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