Should Guys Play the "Hold Out" Game, Too?

[fishtaco]

I think Elswyth and zengirl have very good balanced posts. But I would rank that as the LS phenomenon. It's awesome to know some women are that way, but I don't see them in real life.

 

What I see are either women that use sex as a power play, like MontanaGirl, or they would be fine with sex before committed relationship. Because women like sex too.

 

So as a man, you go out there and expect to meet women like zengirl, I can tell you, chances are, you have a surprise waiting for you.

[zengirl]

I think Elswyth and zengirl have very good balanced posts. But I would rank that as the LS phenomenon. It's awesome to know some women are that way, but I don't see them in real life.

 

What I see are either women that use sex as a power play, like MontanaGirl, or they would be fine with sex before committed relationship. Because women like sex too.

 

So as a man, you go out there and expect to meet women like zengirl, I can tell you, chances are, you have a surprise waiting for you.

 

That's fair enough. I'm not sure what 'most women' are like, but I can say that most women I actually associate with do not use sex as a power play. I would imagine that groupings would go like that - most people who socialize with each other have similar characters to them and affinities. I cannot abide anyone who attempts to control others, whatever the means.

 

There are men who certainly use money as a power play. Oodles of them, and I have no interest in those guys either, or anyone who would seek to control me. However, I find it very easy to tell when someone is looking for control - sex, money, or any other outlet.

 

If a guy really truly feels he's more compatible with someone who takes sex less seriously and has sex early on - as long as he doesn't mind the natural causation of that (re: high # etc) or devalue her for it - then I have no issue with that either! Truly. Such a man would obviously be incompatible with me, but so are oodles of people. There is a way to have that view and express it respectfully. I would take the same view of a woman who truly feels she's more compatible with someone who covers dinner. Whatever. There's a way to have that view and express it respectfully too (which includes not trashing people who fail to live up to your viewpoint, etc). There are also ways to have both of those example viewpoints that are less than respectful, and I think that gets people's hackles up, naturally.

[wheream_i]

I'm 33 years old now and I have totally done the "hold out" back when I was 24. I dated someone who was incredibly beautiful and just the complete package. There was lots of making out and copping feels but clothes never came off. This went on for three weeks and to this day is the longest I've ever held out for sex. It wasn't a game for me as I really wanted this one to last and didn't want to jump in too fast.

 

These days I don't even bother with waiting since most women don't anyway. If we both want it, then why the hell not? I'm always amazed at how easily women give it away. If I ever come across that one that I feel sparks for and we BOTH feel it's worth waiting for then I will and I'll just enjoy spending time with them.

[wheream_i]

So hold out on something girls don't even really want to begin with?

 

Um, are you serious?

 

Jeez, it still amazes me how many men out there think women don't want or need sex.

[wheream_i]

I completely misread this thread. I thought it was about men holding out on sex, not holding out with their wallets.

 

Excuse my posts.

[wheream_i]

His answer knocked me back from that imaginary "power" position men seem to hate so much and into the position of not knowing I could have him at my whim.

 

Awesome! I love it.

[fishtaco]

If a guy really truly feels he's more compatible with someone who takes sex less seriously and has sex early on - as long as he doesn't mind the natural causation of that (re: high # etc) or devalue her for it - then I have no issue with that either! Truly. Such a man would obviously be incompatible with me, but so are oodles of people. There is a way to have that view and express it respectfully. I would take the same view of a woman who truly feels she's more compatible with someone who covers dinner. Whatever. There's a way to have that view and express it respectfully too (which includes not trashing people who fail to live up to your viewpoint, etc). There are also ways to have both of those example viewpoints that are less than respectful, and I think that gets people's hackles up, naturally.

 

Yes, really the bottom line is compatibility. Even in the case of abusive relationships, if one likes to punch, one likes to get punched, it's a match. And we DO see that over and over again, a woman gets out of one abusive relationship only to jump into another one.

 

And like you said, if I want women that are fine with casual sex, but at the same time I would blame them for it, then really I'm doing a disfavor to myself, because I'll never be happy, and it'll be my own fault. For me, I don't care about sexual history, as long as there is no STD. I care about from today forward.

 

I make bad choices when it comes to women. So I use these filters to keep me safe. Even though it's far from perfect, it's better than my judgement.

 

zengirl, I think we run in very different social circles, which probably contributed greatly to a lot of the differences in our perception of the dating world.

[ThaWholigan]

I completely misread this thread. I thought it was about men holding out on sex, not holding out with their wallets.

 

Excuse my posts.

Same here, hence why I liked Montana girls post. I've been toying with the idea myself, waiting it out longer than 3 dates . See how that works out

[phineas]

Same here, hence why I liked Montana girls post. I've been toying with the idea myself, waiting it out longer than 3 dates . See how that works out

 

Honestly, not trying to sleep with a woman the first time I had her alone at my place or hers has gotten me freindzoned almost every time.

I'd say every time but i'm thinking I was probably friendzoned a few times before I got alone with them.

 

If a woman wants it and you are avoiding being alone at her place or yours, she will scheme to get you alone then jump you. I personally like it this way best.

[fishtaco]

Honestly, not trying to sleep with a woman the first time I had her alone at my place or hers has gotten me freindzoned almost every time.

I'd say every time but i'm thinking I was probably friendzoned a few times before I got alone with them.

 

If a woman wants it and you are avoiding being alone at her place or yours, she will scheme to get you alone then jump you. I personally like it this way best.

 

That's my experience too. If the opportunity is given, and you don't take it, it actually makes the guy look really bad. Sure, it can be salvaged with excellent communication, but you are still trying to dig yourself out of the hole.

 

On the other hand, if you go for it, and the woman turned you down, as long as you don't turn into a rapist *******, she EXPECTS this, and everything carries on as normal, and you can try again next time.

[oaks]

That's my experience too. If the opportunity is given, and you don't take it, it actually makes the guy look really bad. Sure, it can be salvaged with excellent communication, but you are still trying to dig yourself out of the hole.

 

On the other hand, if you go for it, and the woman turned you down, as long as you don't turn into a rapist *******, she EXPECTS this, and everything carries on as normal, and you can try again next time.

 

Absolutely. The window in which a man can say "no, it's too soon" without ruining things is a lot narrower than the window in which a woman can say "no, it's too soon" without ruining things. The former is narrow like an arrow slit and the latter is a big wide picture window overlooking the ocean.

[phineas]

That's my experience too. If the opportunity is given, and you don't take it, it actually makes the guy look really bad. Sure, it can be salvaged with excellent communication, but you are still trying to dig yourself out of the hole.

 

On the other hand, if you go for it, and the woman turned you down, as long as you don't turn into a rapist *******, she EXPECTS this, and everything carries on as normal, and you can try again next time.

 

My biggest problem in the past was that women moved faster than me & once I figured it out they wanted it that night there was zero chance for recovery.

 

The only way I've dug myself out of that hole was to basically tell them I got enough friends & fall off the face of the earth.

 

But it's only worked a few times.

[threebyfate]

You sound as resentful as the op.

You two should kiss.

Resentful? Nope. I can honestly say that every real life man dated wasn't cheap.

[fortyninethousand322]

I figured most people went on free or very cheap dates early in relationships anyway. The first three dates should be coffee/drinks, picnic, hiking/mountain biking. There. Nothing more than a few bucks and I'm sure most women would find that romantic.

[phineas]

Resentful? Nope. I can honestly say that every real life man dated wasn't cheap.

 

Oh then you are just bitter or have issues with men?

Maybe it's a sense of entitlement?

 

Because I don't understand how you're post is nothing more than an excuse to lob a cheap insult at random men on the forum.

[phineas]

I figured most people went on free or very cheap dates early in relationships anyway. The first three dates should be coffee/drinks, picnic, hiking/mountain biking. There. Nothing more than a few bucks and I'm sure most women would find that romantic.

 

Exactly.

as I said in a previous post, just how much booze dose a woman expect to consume on a first meet/ date that really should only last a few hrs?

 

If it's costing me more than $20 she's either just looking to get her drink on for free or has a drinking problem.

 

But, I do meet women who tell me in not so many words that if I'm not going to take them to a certain restaurant for dinner & drinks i'm not going to get a first date with them.

And it is never a chain restaurant.

 

I dismiss these women asap & move on.

[RedRobin]

Sure, why not? Try something different. Couldn't hurt.

[threebyfate]

Oh then you are just bitter or have issues with men?

Maybe it's a sense of entitlement?

I get what I want out of life. How about you?

 

Because I don't understand how you're post is nothing more than an excuse to lob a cheap insult at random men on the forum.

It's appalling the nickels and dimes whining, considering some of the reasons behind them.

1. Cheap men lean towards being selfish personalities where time, effort and emotion are also hoarded like gold.
   
2. And/or they are or want to multi-date, hence don't want to shell out for all the women they're attempting to get jiggy wit.
   
3. They want to go to expensive restaurants but can't really afford them.
   

Bear in mind, I'm talking about first date only.

 

If I were to mention how generous I can and have been with the men in my life, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

[fishtaco]

It's appalling the nickels and dimes whining, considering some of the reasons behind them.

1. Cheap men lean towards being selfish personalities where time, effort and emotion are also hoarded like gold.
   
2. And/or they are or want to multi-date, hence don't want to shell out for all the women they're attempting to get jiggy wit.
   
3. They want to go to expensive restaurants but can't really afford them.
   

Bear in mind, I'm talking about first date only.

 

If I were to mention how generous I can and have been with the men in my life, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

 

Well, it sucks to get used, how much money you were used for is irrelevant. I make a reasonable amount of money, but that doesn't mean it feels good to go out with a woman that "demands" I pay for all the dates, when she really had no interest in taking things anywhere.

 

TBF, I understand you are not that type. So if everyone were transparent, I'd say you are the one that CAN demand a man to pay up. But you don't need me to tell you exactly how transparent people are when dating.

 

So if the woman offers to pay/go half, that actually makes me feel less suspicious. Yes, some woman will offer to pay or go half if she's not interested. But any woman with the consideration to do so will ALSO tell you she's not interested. I'm ready to play games, that's the norm. But I always have respect for women that don't.

 

Alternately if I'm getting sex, then I even if things don't work out, well, I consider that an even trade.

 

I'm still not a proponent of withholding cash. That is so ingrained in the dating culture here in the US that it'll actually cause more disadvantage than any good it brings. With the gender equality moving forward, I believe one day this will be a non issue. But as of now, it is still very much a disadvantageous thing to do.

 

But the "hold out" game seems to be a big hit with the ladies, so I'd want to do it too, if I were single. Just not sure if money is the right thing to hold out on.

 

I do view any money I spend on a woman as placing bets. So if the woman has earned more of my trust, my bet will be larger. I usually start by placing a cup of coffee as my first bet. I think that's reasonable.

[Mon_Troppo]

Holding out on cash? Interesting.

 

Don't think I've ever spent money on a woman who was not my girlfriend. If I'm dating we always split the bill. If I ever did spend money on a woman, it wasn't a whole lot. So holding out financially seems like strange idea, unless all you have to impress a woman is your wealth.

 

A woman should really want you physically and mentally. So in that case I'd say holding back on communication and attention is more effective than money. If a woman I really want is making sex difficult to get, I stop talking to her for a week or two. If she goes, she goes. But if she's stalking me online or persistently calling/texting, I know I'll have her in due time.

[Mme. Chaucer]

I get what I want out of life. How about you?

 

 

Of course he doesn't. And it's all because of the bad wimmins and the unfair society. Duh.

[phineas]

He doesn't kiss LS women's asses so he's a misogynist

 

fify

 

This place never ceases to bring the lulzs.

[phineas]

I get what I want out of life. How about you?

 

It's appalling the nickels and dimes whining, considering some of the reasons behind them.

1. Cheap men lean towards being selfish personalities where time, effort and emotion are also hoarded like gold.
   
2. And/or they are or want to multi-date, hence don't want to shell out for all the women they're attempting to get jiggy wit.
   
3. They want to go to expensive restaurants but can't really afford them.
   

Bear in mind, I'm talking about first date only.

 

If I were to mention how generous I can and have been with the men in my life, you'd understand where I'm coming from.

 

That list is messed up.

 

I'm far from selfish. I have no problem spending money on those who matter to me. A woman who hasn't committed to me is not one of those people. So you are wrong there.

 

It doesn't matter if i'm dating 1 woman or 20. I'm not going to drop dinner & drinks type of money on a women that isn't my GF.

 

They want to go to expensive restaurants but can't really afford them.

 

I don't even..

 

Please tell me how your personal opinion of your own generosity is the baseline for determining universal "cheapness" of all men on an internet forum.

[Brit]

This question is not reasonable, so you will hold back money until a woman opens her legs for you, then decide if she is worth a 2 dollar coffee, or a 40 dollar meal? Why not just join Adult Friend Finder, find a whore, and skip the date and boink like rabbits?

[threebyfate]

Well, it sucks to get used, how much money you were used for is irrelevant. I make a reasonable amount of money, but that doesn't mean it feels good to go out with a woman that "demands" I pay for all the dates, when she really had no interest in taking things anywhere.

Notice how I mentioned the first date only? I agree if you're paying for all dates which would be inequitable.

 

My belief is that the guy pay for the first date unless I don't want to ever see him again. If it's the latter, I pay for the entire bill on the first date even if it means guerrilla pre-paying while pretending to go to the bathroom. If I want to see him again, then I let him pay for the first date and then we alternate.

 

This way, no one's out except me for the first date where the cost of the bill is well worth not feeling any future obligations or using the guy for a free meal.

 

TBF, I understand you are not that type. So if everyone were transparent, I'd say you are the one that CAN demand a man to pay up. But you don't need me to tell you exactly how transparent people are when dating.

Uncertain what you mean by transparency.

 

So if the woman offers to pay/go half, that actually makes me feel less suspicious. Yes, some woman will offer to pay or go half if she's not interested. But any woman with the consideration to do so will ALSO tell you she's not interested. I'm ready to play games, that's the norm. But I always have respect for women that don't.

As a consideration, why not see if she's willing to pay for the second date and if not, then more likely, she's probably a bit too old fashioned for you.

 

Alternately if I'm getting sex, then I even if things don't work out, well, I consider that an even trade.

Not going to lie to you. This gets my back up but then, I don't put out on first dates. Putting out only happens if the guy comes across as genuinely caring. There needs to be a comfort level and trust between, prior to leaping.

 

I'm still not a proponent of withholding cash. That is so ingrained in the dating culture here in the US that it'll actually cause more disadvantage than any good it brings. With the gender equality moving forward, I believe one day this will be a non issue. But as of now, it is still very much a disadvantageous thing to do.

It's like everything else. No one has to do anything but there can be consequences to actions. As a guess, there's only been one guy who had a problem with me not putting out. No biggie.

 

But the "hold out" game seems to be a big hit with the ladies, so I'd want to do it too, if I were single. Just not sure if money is the right thing to hold out on.

You already hold out. In emotional investment.

 

I do view any money I spend on a woman as placing bets. So if the woman has earned more of my trust, my bet will be larger. I usually start by placing a cup of coffee as my first bet. I think that's reasonable.

While the usage of bet kind of throws me off a bit, the coffee date thing is reasonable particularly if you date cold and a lot. If it's someone you've known for awhile, coffee sounds like a friend thing to do.