YellowShark Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I'd have a hard time being with someone without affection too. It might take me awhile to go full on with sex.... but I have to have affection and intimacy. I agree with the others that there has to be some progression... My sentiments exactly. There is a point where some affection has to be exchanged. While I am not saying there is a line in the sand and by this date sex must be exchanged... but after several dates the nice little touchy feely things should begin if someone is truly attracted to you.
RedRobin Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 My sentiments exactly. There is a point where some affection has to be exchanged. While I am not saying there is a line in the sand and by this date sex must be exchanged... but after several dates the nice little touchy feely things should begin if someone is truly attracted to you. I agree. If you are the kind of person who really wants and enjoys affection in all of it's manifestations, then it is important that the person for you does as well. You can be affectionate and caring without jumping immediately into bed.
YellowShark Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 (edited) I agree. If you are the kind of person who really wants and enjoys affection in all of it's manifestations, then it is important that the person for you does as well. You can be affectionate and caring without jumping immediately into bed. Well this is totally on topic because I am a guy, and I am illustrating how long I am willing to wait. And after several dates I am not willing to wait any longer to feel desired or wanted. I explained this to her from day one. That I am an affectionate guy. I like the romance part of dating very much. And it took a few dates before I even showed her any affection. She still goes out on dates with me, so she must be interested.. right? I asked her this weekend - on a date - what's up, and told her what I require. She hits me with the "taking it slow" BS. Well ladies if you want a quality guy to stick around "taking it slow" doesn't mean zero affection, it means no sex until you're ready. Edited July 15, 2012 by YellowShark
Lonely Ronin Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I did.. On the last date.. I got the "I want to take it slow" line. Well slow to me is no sex... and I am cool with that. But slow is not no hand holding, compliments, kissing, or playful hugs.. especially after several dates together. I expect some romance after all. Did you follow up and make sure she knows you're ok with no sex, but no affection at all is a problem. Imo, this is one of those things you should follow up and be crystal clear on. Even if you bail it might be good to know, just so you aren't left wondering what went wrong.
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 You know, Ninja... I really like alot of your posts and advice. It has a 'tough love' flavor that appeals to me... as that tends to be my style as well. No offense though... your posts sometimes take on a bit of a self-congratulatory tone at times... with a hint of 'neener neener' underneath it like women should all be ashamed and feel responsible for what men do or don't do. I dunno. Something about it rubs me the wrong way. I think better advice would be to encourage women to stop giving a sh*t about what 'men' want (as a group) or worrying about it... and just go after what they want... with no apologies. Works for me. Well first off, thanks...I appreciate your perspective/feedback. Secondly you have to understand from my shoes how insurmountably frustrating I feel when certain topics are discussed and dissected among women speaking about men and their behavior yet still seemingly just as convinced, maybe a little more bitter/disappointed, however all the same lacking the insight and understanding of what the real problem is. It's like hearing someone talk about car motors speaking from the point of view as a driver or owner...you might have some surface understanding based on some limited experience but you're far and away from being a mechanic. And I'm not claiming women are saying this about themselves, to be professionals however the topics and perspectives shared and lent to other women through "advice" is (imo) more often than not going to lead them to gaining what they desire...It's like how women give each other advice on their relationships, most women never take it, or they accept it but still don't act on it...in the end they still make every decision based on their emotions. So yeah, I do get a bit frustrated and fed-up, not because I'm teasing or poking fun but because of the sheer disappointment and frustration in the way of thinking has so many holes in it and I realize how easily this will be for men with selfish intentions to navigate...It's really like laying a piece of wood on the floor to prevent a flood. The amount of information and understanding I would need to divulge and share in one post would be merely impossible and the funny thing is, If not explained and critiqued correctly...probably not even taken to heart and seriously. It is to no surprise to me that women have so much trouble gaining a relationship or even determining which men truly offer that and which do not. However as long as they believe in false advice given by women who are just as unsuccessful I do not see how much progress will be made...in fact education women on men may even be futile in some respects. With many women it's not even about changing them or helping them see them react differently, It's just hoping that they'll listen to what you're saying then realize in their lives and in that moment by some miracle what you told them about this situation, where they are aware enough to make the wise decision instead of the emotional one. It is what it is though, I understand that a woman only worrying about what she wants may be to a degree effective, but let's face it...once the emotions kick in that goes all out in the window....so in the end women very much care what the man wants and how they think, most are not wise or have the strength to pull themselves out of a sinking ship, it's really the fault of the man or lack of that makes a woman realize this might not be worth it. But go ahead ladies, keep giving it all (not just sexually speaking) to every man you think is attractive and seems like the "perfect package" (because you've never been down that road before) in the first 3 dates (month or so) and ignore all the other important characteristics, qualities, motives, and things that really matter and count to an actual relationship. At least you gave it to him instead of him taking it from you right? how liberating. As I think Dr. Phil says: How's that working for ya?
RedRobin Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Love and intimacy (in all it's forms) isn't a battle or a contest. Avoid those who think it is. (thought for the day) 1
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Anyway, I wanted to add I'm done with the post. Too frustrating to read, too much to explain that I don't think I have the energy or motivation for...carry on and good luck.
YellowShark Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 Did you follow up and make sure she knows you're ok with no sex, but no affection at all is a problem. Imo, this is one of those things you should follow up and be crystal clear on. Even if you bail it might be good to know, just so you aren't left wondering what went wrong. Actually I was crystal clear what I expected. This was a serious talk because we have had several dates now and I wanted to set some goals regarding where this is going. Frankly I really didn't dig the "take it slow" line. To me that really means not that interested. The confusing part is you don't date someone several times if you have no interest. You say thanks, but no thanks. It's like someone said earlier. I wonder how long a woman would date a man who didn't show affection or romance her...
RedRobin Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) Well first off, thanks...I appreciate your perspective/feedback. Secondly you have to understand from my shoes how insurmountably frustrating I feel when certain topics are discussed and dissected among women speaking about men and their behavior yet still seemingly just as convinced, maybe a little more bitter/disappointed, however all the same lacking the insight and understanding of what the real problem is. It's like hearing someone talk about car motors speaking from the point of view as a driver or owner...you might have some surface understanding based on some limited experience but you're far and away from being a mechanic. And I'm not claiming women are saying this about themselves, to be professionals however the topics and perspectives shared and lent to other women through "advice" is (imo) more often than not going to lead them to gaining what they desire...It's like how women give each other advice on their relationships, most women never take it, or they accept it but still don't act on it...in the end they still make every decision based on their emotions. So yeah, I do get a bit frustrated and fed-up, not because I'm teasing or poking fun but because of the sheer disappointment and frustration in the way of thinking has so many holes in it and I realize how easily this will be for men with selfish intentions to navigate...It's really like laying a piece of wood on the floor to prevent a flood. The amount of information and understanding I would need to divulge and share in one post would be merely impossible and the funny thing is, If not explained and critiqued correctly...probably not even taken to heart and seriously. It is to no surprise to me that women have so much trouble gaining a relationship or even determining which men truly offer that and which do not. However as long as they believe in false advice given by women who are just as unsuccessful I do not see how much progress will be made...in fact education women on men may even be futile in some respects. With many women it's not even about changing them or helping them see them react differently, It's just hoping that they'll listen to what you're saying then realize in their lives and in that moment by some miracle what you told them about this situation, where they are aware enough to make the wise decision instead of the emotional one. It is what it is though, I understand that a woman only worrying about what she wants may be to a degree effective, but let's face it...once the emotions kick in that goes all out in the window....so in the end women very much care what the man wants and how they think, most are not wise or have the strength to pull themselves out of a sinking ship, it's really the fault of the man or lack of that makes a woman realize this might not be worth it. But go ahead ladies, keep giving it all (not just sexually speaking) to every man you think is attractive and seems like the "perfect package" (because you've never been down that road before) in the first 3 dates (month or so) and ignore all the other important characteristics, qualities, motives, and things that really matter and count to an actual relationship. At least you gave it to him instead of him taking it from you right? how liberating. As I think Dr. Phil says: How's that working for ya? I appreciate your perspective... I appreciate even more your desire to elucidate alot of men's thought process for women here. There have been a few times when you've corrected some of the young men. Your responsible mentoring of them is also acknowledged. I bolded the above because it touches on an earlier theme... I've seen this in other threads. Men can't have it both ways. Many flip flop on admiring women's emotion and nurturing demeanor (whether it comes from biology or culture is irrelevant) while simultaneously scolding or ridiculing them for it.... and then later... having a little whoo-ra party when they manage to take advantage of that very same quality. It feels rather hateful and mean. This is what I'm objecting to. There is some cognitive dissonance here. A function of the ever-changing landscape of gender relations and cultural expectations, I expect. Something each of us needs to navigate in our own way. Edited July 16, 2012 by RedRobin
miss_jaclynrae Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 If I really liked you I'd wait a month, before starting to see other women too, if I wasn't already. Most guys with options won't wait around too long. What's the point? There's plenty of attractive, professional women out there that are good catches and aren't hung up about having sex. Plus men know what's up too...you didn't make the other 10+ other guys wait (in a mans mind) now you're going to make me wait, just for sex? because now you've put a bigger price tag on the vagina when you were giving it out for practically free? most of these guys are going to be like "not going to happen...no thanks" unless of course very interested or they can tell you're actually very conservative which is rare in this day and age. DING DING! Both of you both proved WHY I wait a month to sleep with someone. 2
Author Phennyphen Posted July 16, 2012 Author Posted July 16, 2012 ... and OP... to follow on what I said above... When you post threads asking men how long to wait for sex, it isn't that far off from a thread asking 'men' what you should wear today. It comes across as insecure. Have sex when you want. Wear what you want. Do what you want. Be accountable for the personal outcomes. If it doesn't work, try something different. Haha I'm not insecure, I'm not saying that I'm going to do what yous all tell me to, I just wondered what a man's perspective on this is. I'm still intnding on waiting a month or so, so yes, I will have sex when I want, wear what I want etc
RedRobin Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 Haha I'm not insecure, I'm not saying that I'm going to do what yous all tell me to, I just wondered what a man's perspective on this is. I'm still intnding on waiting a month or so, so yes, I will have sex when I want, wear what I want etc Just to fill in... A month is just a number. 30 days. If those 30 days are not filled with 'purpose' then it doesn't have much meaning... One thing I do that works GREAT... Don't have sex until he agrees to join you at a local free STD clinic and you get your test results together. I find it works VERY well at sifting out the charmers from the truly serious... 1
maybealone Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 I think it's somewhat irrelevant to concern ourselves with how long a typical man is willing to wait and how long a typical woman is willing to wait. If a guy is dead set on three dates or less, and a woman is thinking more about knowing and trusting the guy which might take a month, then that's a difference of values. Period. End of story. In the long run, you probably wouldn't have been compatible in a LTR anyway. One thing I don't understand is why the men who want sex early don't spend more time complaining about the double standard. Instead, they seem to perpetuate it. A lot of the men here who want to have sex with a woman after one or two dates are the same men that would: -- never want an LTR with a woman with X number of sexual partners, -- complain that she was easy with the last 10 men she dated when she isn't easy with them, or -- compare her "stretched out vagina" to a used car with hundreds of thousands of miles on it. Not the best source of advice, IMO. When it comes to dating, be yourself. It's not worth compromising your values or changing anything else for someone who cannot appreciate the real you. 3
RedRobin Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) One thing I don't understand is why the men who want sex early don't spend more time complaining about the double standard. Instead, they seem to perpetuate it. I understand why they do it. It is one of the biggest things I screen against now. These men have all kinds of double standards for their behavior that don't stop at their sexuality. To them, relationships are all about who is 'winning' and 'losing'... I mentioned upthread that their fear/hatred of real intimacy and cognitive dissonance regarding women's and their own sexuality is probably at the heart of it. I really can't be bothered with them... This is why I suggested the OP not pattern her behavior towards what she thinks men want. Don't have sex until you have all the information you need to make an informed decision about the person and be accountable for your part of the interaction... whatever it is. If that is one date, fine. If that means waiting until marriage.... fine. What I find perplexing is how many men routinely think they have all the information they need about a woman on the first or second date. It is wonderful that so many men feel women's character is so generally 'good' that they can jump to it that fast. Must be nice. Edited July 16, 2012 by RedRobin
joystickd Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 I think it's somewhat irrelevant to concern ourselves with how long a typical man is willing to wait and how long a typical woman is willing to wait. If a guy is dead set on three dates or less, and a woman is thinking more about knowing and trusting the guy which might take a month, then that's a difference of values. Period. End of story. In the long run, you probably wouldn't have been compatible in a LTR anyway. One thing I don't understand is why the men who want sex early don't spend more time complaining about the double standard. Instead, they seem to perpetuate it. A lot of the men here who want to have sex with a woman after one or two dates are the same men that would: -- never want an LTR with a woman with X number of sexual partners, -- complain that she was easy with the last 10 men she dated when she isn't easy with them, or -- compare her "stretched out vagina" to a used car with hundreds of thousands of miles on it. Not the best source of advice, IMO. When it comes to dating, be yourself. It's not worth compromising your values or changing anything else for someone who cannot appreciate the real you. This is funny because it probably one of the few things men judge women on. Women however judge men on 1. Career 2. Whether he has his own place or still stays with mom 3.Has he even had sex I think you have the idea the guys on here could add more. Men and women have issues and a thread asking guys how long to wait is not an appropriate place to get on the soap box unless you are willing to handle the opposing view which I think some of you are not able to handle.
maybealone Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) This is funny because it probably one of the few things men judge women on. Women however judge men on 1. Career 2. Whether he has his own place or still stays with mom 3.Has he even had sex Women don't push and push a guy to get a good job, or move out from mom's house, or to lose his virginity only to then turn around and say he is not LTR material because he got a good job, got an apartment, or got experience. She might not go out with him in the first place, just like a guy might not go out with a woman who has a reputation as a good girl in the first place, but it seems like the guys who are most likely to push for sex are often the same ones that turn around and call her a skank for "giving in." All I'm saying is that a double standard exists -- men are congratulated for sleeping around and women are typically vilified. So the men that want women to have sex with every man they have one or two dates with should rally against the double standard instead of perpetuating it. Edited July 16, 2012 by maybealone 1
utterer of lies Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 This is funny because it probably one of the few things men judge women on. Women however judge men on 1. Career 2. Whether he has his own place or still stays with mom 3.Has he even had sex This is funny. You say it like this is a bad thing, but seriously, at least 1&2 are kind of an absolute minimum standard. A man who still lives with his parents has obviously not made even the first step towards an independent life, and a certain focus on his career is necessary if his income should ever support a family.
RedRobin Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 This is funny because it probably one of the few things men judge women on. And this is the women's problem? How about you set the bar a little higher and find other criteria to gauge her character on before you sleep with her? Obviously the 'when does she have sex' thing isn't exactly the metric it used to be, now is it? To me it is just something some men do out of convenience... so if things don't work out, they can call her a slut instead of blaming themselves or just realizing that you two weren't compatible. It is no different than women who have sex soon without asking the guy any questions then complaining about why he doesn't want a relationship. It shows a lack of accountability.
Els Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 OP, I honestly think you should concern yourself less with how long the 'average guy' would wait, and more with when YOU feel sex with that man would be an act that you would enjoy and not regret. You should never, ever have sex with someone just because you don't want them to leave you, IMO. Not only does it completely nullify the whole point and enjoyment of the act, but it also rarely works out in the long term. Good LTRs are based on a foundation of compatibility, and by sticking to your guns, you also benefit yourself by being able to weed out incompatible partners. Personally, I would be most compatible with a man who reserves sex for a committed R, who is understanding and gentlemanly about not pressuring a woman who isn't ready, and who is sexually-educated enough to know that the choice to wait for a committed R is completely unrelated to the person's sexual drive, ability, and enthusiasm in a committed R. Such men do not mind waiting however long it takes me to be ready and for us to establish commitment. The others are welcome to leave if they wish - nothing lost on my part. 3
joystickd Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 And this is the women's problem? How about you set the bar a little higher and find other criteria to gauge her character on before you sleep with her? Obviously the 'when does she have sex' thing isn't exactly the metric it used to be, now is it? To me it is just something some men do out of convenience... so if things don't work out, they can call her a slut instead of blaming themselves or just realizing that you two weren't compatible. It is no different than women who have sex soon without asking the guy any questions then complaining about why he doesn't want a relationship. It shows a lack of accountability. I think its funny as hell a question for guys about how long they can wait turned into a woman's whinefest. I think she was just generally curious how long men think they should wait. I'm honest about my intentions if I want sex I say it. If I want to get to know someone and wait I say it. Women complain about men and men complain about women and the truth is neither side is really willing to be honest about their intentions. Women can settle for FWB when really they want more. Honesty is the best thing and I strongly promote when you give your intentions then the other party is accountable for accepting that. If a woman accepts FWB and wants more when he said he just wants sex she is accountable. 1
kaylan Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 Even the most caring guys are not going to wait forever for a girl to be ready. Some chicks put guys through long waiting trials even after establish commitment.
Els Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 Even the most caring guys are not going to wait forever for a girl to be ready. Some chicks put guys through long waiting trials even after establish commitment. I don't think ANYone ever waits forever, but many do wait til marriage. Or did you just mean what 'feels' like forever?
kaylan Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I don't think ANYone ever waits forever, but many do wait til marriage. Or did you just mean what 'feels' like forever? Yes, feels like. And luckily most women in the West dont want to wait for marriage, and Id never date a woman who did want that. Risks are too high. I need to know we click physically way before that. I have time tables on that, and Im not a teenager anymore. Back when we were teens it was common for boys and girls to date a year or more before having sex...and usually thats because one or both of them were virgins. Usually when neither party had a V card, people stop waiting a long time, and usually did it within the first two months. Its easy to wait when you do know what youre missing =P So as an adult, I wouldnt be willing to wait well into a committed relationship. Sure I could wait for sex until we were committed, but being made to wait much longer after we were committed wouldnt make much sense to me, and Id be scared of wasting my time on someone I wasnt sexually compatible with. Edited July 16, 2012 by kaylan
Els Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 Yes, feels like. And luckily most women in the West dont want to wait for marriage, and Id never date a woman who did want that. Risks are too high. I need to know we click physically way before that. I have time tables on that, and Im not a teenager anymore. Back when we were teens it was common for boys and girls to date a year or more before having sex...and usually thats because one or both of them were virgins. Usually when neither party had a V card, people stop waiting a long time, and usually did it within the first two months. Its easy to wait when you do know what youre missing =P So as an adult, I wouldnt be willing to wait well into a committed relationship. Sure I could wait for sex until we were committed, but being made to wait much longer after we were committed wouldnt make much sense to me, and Id be scared of wasting my time on someone I wasnt sexually compatible with. Hey, nothing wrong with your personal preferences. I was just referring to your statement of 'Even the most caring guys are not going to wait forever for a girl to be ready'. My point is, nobody really waits forever, but there are plenty of people who do wait for what 'feels like forever', ie marriage.
joystickd Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 I understand why they do it. It is one of the biggest things I screen against now. These men have all kinds of double standards for their behavior that don't stop at their sexuality. To them, relationships are all about who is 'winning' and 'losing'... I mentioned upthread that their fear/hatred of real intimacy and cognitive dissonance regarding women's and their own sexuality is probably at the heart of it. I really can't be bothered with them... This is why I suggested the OP not pattern her behavior towards what she thinks men want. Don't have sex until you have all the information you need to make an informed decision about the person and be accountable for your part of the interaction... whatever it is. If that is one date, fine. If that means waiting until marriage.... fine. What I find perplexing is how many men routinely think they have all the information they need about a woman on the first or second date. It is wonderful that so many men feel women's character is so generally 'good' that they can jump to it that fast. Must be nice. I laugh at the bold statement because you can say that but when a man curious about a woman's past ask about it a woman won't reveal it. The man wants to have all the information he needs to make an informed decision about the person. If that person potentially has some things that are incompatible with his beliefs then he should be told. Women like you are no different than the men you complain about that push for sex early on.
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