frozensprouts Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 there is a thread in the other man/woman section where someone ( I think it is Mercy) noted that if someone's story about their affair doesn't make sense, it's probably not true... have you found this to be true yourself? if you wayward spouse told you things that made no sense, did you find out they were lies? Do you think they even realized they were lies? ( especially in an emotional affair, the spouse may not even realize just how deeply they are in it)
Athena Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 there is a thread in the other man/woman section where someone ( I think it is Mercy) noted that if someone's story about their affair doesn't make sense, it's probably not true... have you found this to be true yourself? if you wayward spouse told you things that made no sense, did you find out they were lies? Do you think they even realized they were lies? ( especially in an emotional affair, the spouse may not even realize just how deeply they are in it) Yes, I've noticed things that my WH has said that made no sense, and EVERY time it turned out to be lies! But it's because HE chose to lie, not because he did not 'even realize just how deeply they are in it'!! In just about every affair he had, he never loved the OW (only loved one of them), so for him he wasn't in it 'deeply'.... just a game to him.
MoneyWorld Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I'm probably just old, but whenever I see things that I think don't make sense I still try to keep a very open mind. I've seen a lot in my life, but I haven't seen everything. The world is a huge place with billions and billions of us, each with our own lives and thoughts. Just because something doesn't make sense to me personally doesn't mean I discount it. For example, belief in some guy watching over you who can see everything you do, hear everything you say, know everything you think, and who will richly reward you if you live a good life or harshly punish you if you live a bad life... well that doesn't make sense to me, but yet there are millions out there who blindly, in my opinion, believe in him (talking about Santa Claus by the way). 2
Spark1111 Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I personally remain amazed at what is NOT communicated during an affair, but rather assumed by the APs. I think that is a necessary part of keeping the affair fantasy, feel good feelings acoming. Truthful communication would ruin you playing Romeo to my Juliet. Why burst the bubble because the bubble feels sooooo good? So yes, so much of it doesn't make sense, not even to the APs after the harsh light of exposure has been shined onto the relationship at DDAY. It can really perplex the BS as they try to find logic in the affair illusion held onto by the APs. My H lied to her, they both lied to me, BUT he lied to himself most of all to justify the affair and assuage his guilt. She had to assume our marriage was trash and I was the evil witch so she could justify her actions and continue in the affair. He had to follow the script so he could continue his actions. Trying to find logic and truth in that scenario can be exhausting task. I often believe the APs themselves wouldn't know the truth if it sat in their laps. 4
Silly_Girl Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 There was lots that I found odd when I was learning about his situation, their marriage. It was a world away from what I believed was normal. It didn't mean it was lies, in fact I know it wasn't lies. The surreal nature of things was what had helped them to remain together - it was hard to share the truth of matters with outsiders. That is usually how it's described on LS as being for the affair partners, almost like co-conspirators, but in this case it was the marriage. I didn't make assumptions, things that came out early on proved I needed to keep an open mind; I asked lots of questions and spent time appraising myself of the facts. I was determined not to be used, I loved this man with all my heart and being his toy was the last thing I'd allow to happen. I did invest too much of myself, not because it was an affair scenario per se, but a dozen or so reasons that all compounded together. And as with lots of relationships, the more you invest the more you want it to work out. Again, often very true of the marriage when one or both spouses want to see the marriage 'pay off' rather than accept - if appropriate - that it did not/does not work. 1
BetrayedH Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I spent seven months "reconciling" and trying to convince myself that 2+2=5 since that's what my wife said - now that she was, you know, being honest. One of the most offensive things to me during that period was that she watched me being "paranoid" (as she and our MC called it), lose weight/sleep, being hypervigilant, going on antidepressants, getting diagnosed with PTSD - all because I was trying desperately to believe her. Turns out I wasn't paranoid and all of my suspicions were valid. Just giving the truth at the beginning would have resulted in reconciliation. Lying in the face of all that made it impossible. 4
Furious Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I think that especially for the BS the roller coaster ride that begins on D-day is spent trying to sort through the tangle of lies and the often times ridiculous partial half-truths or obvious omissions and bits and pieces of inconsistent details that we are given. Yeah... if what you're being served doesn't make sense, 9 times out of 10, it's because your being served a bullish*it sandwich. I think that when you love someone and trust them, we let things slide or we take what we're seeing or being told at face value. I will never again let what doesn't make sense slide or take it at face value again. 1
Spark1111 Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 I think that especially for the BS the roller coaster ride that begins on D-day is spent trying to sort through the tangle of lies and the often times ridiculous partial half-truths or obvious omissions and bits and pieces of inconsistent details that we are given. Yeah... if what you're being served doesn't make sense, 9 times out of 10, it's because your being served a bullish*it sandwich. I think that when you love someone and trust them, we let things slide or we take what we're seeing or being told at face value. I will never again let what doesn't make sense slide or take it at face value again. I certainly agree with this! More profound,more difficult for me was trying to decipher what was intentional lying due to cowardice; what was lying by omission, either due to cowardice or confusion, or not truly remembering because it wasn't important to the affair script; and what was truly not remembered. This is crazy making. Like I said before, I believe there are some things they remember and hide, some things they CHOOSE not to remember to protect their own psyche from their shameful actions and some things they truly have BLOCKED from their memory for good! Is it real or is it memorex. I swear they do not even know. 2
Furious Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 (edited) I certainly agree with this! More profound,more difficult for me was trying to decipher what was intentional lying due to cowardice; what was lying by omission, either due to cowardice or confusion, or not truly remembering because it wasn't important to the affair script; and what was truly not remembered. This is crazy making. Ironically, not until many months later, my husband realized that the lies he told to me stemmed from the lies he told himself. He now see's that not only was he serving me a bullsh*t sandwich that made no sense, he was eating one himself. Yes, the lies, whether by omission, or confusion, cowardice, or not remembering.....or straight out denial....is a desperate attempt to preserve the persona they created, and when the falseness is exposed it opens up that big hole inside themselves that perhaps for most of their lives they've been expecting others to fill. I think this is where they either get it or get out. Edited July 16, 2012 by Furious 2
Radagast Posted July 16, 2012 Posted July 16, 2012 There was lots that I found odd when I was learning about his situation, their marriage. It was a world away from what I believed was normal. It didn't mean it was lies, in fact I know it wasn't lies. The surreal nature of things was what had helped them to remain together - it was hard to share the truth of matters with outsiders. That is usually how it's described on LS as being for the affair partners, almost like co-conspirators, but in this case it was the marriage. I didn't tell my love much about my marriage. I knew it would be difficult for an outsider to understand. Hard to understand that my ex-wife had never allowed me to hold her hand, never hugged me, never sat close to me or cuddled, for example. Harder to understand why I stayed with her so long when I love doing those things. It was a lot easier to allow people to make assumptions about our marriage, that I was equally uncomfortable about physical affection (or affection of any kind), that things suited me the way they were and perhaps they did to an extent because I put up with it for long enough. It was easier to let her find out about those things from others, old friends who had known me and my ex-wife for a long time, and from my family, who knew me before the marriage and during the marriage. Easier to let her draw her own conclusions instead of thrusting mine at her. I know when I was "the other man" my ex-wife told me all sorts of things about her marriage, about how bad it was, about how damaged it made her, about how awful her husband was. And with all my teenage naivete I believed her, and thought him heartless and cruel to abuse a damaged woman who needed love and care. I know a large amount of it did not make much sense but I needed to believe it rather than acknowledge that I was yet another dupe being made a fool of by a manipulative woman who fed off other people's energy to run her own delusions. It was only later I was able to acknowledge how I'd fallen into that web of damage and delusion without having the benefit of outside information to verify the reality of any of the claims. And I did not want my love to feel she'd been put in the same position. I wanted her to gather her own evidence, to make her own conclusions, to take her own decisions which of course she would, being far smarter than a sheltered teenager with no worldly experience. My view now is - if it doesn't make much sense, perhaps it isn't true. Or perhaps it is, and you just lack the background or the understanding to connect the dots. If it matters to you to understand, it's worth finding out more and connecting the dots, or finding out that it's not true and moving on. If it doesn't matter to you, shrug and walk away. It takes all sorts to make a world and we can't expect to understand everything or every one.
Spark1111 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Ironically, not until many months later, my husband realized that the lies he told to me stemmed from the lies he told himself. He now see's that not only was he serving me a bullsh*t sandwich that made no sense, he was eating one himself. Yes, the lies, whether by omission, or confusion, cowardice, or not remembering.....or straight out denial....is a desperate attempt to preserve the persona they created, and when the falseness is exposed it opens up that big hole inside themselves that perhaps for most of their lives they've been expecting others to fill. I think this is where they either get it or get out. Oh, my H was her Knight in Shining Armor! Rescuing her from her lonely life and being such an amazing influence on her child who had difficulties. Her xH was the evil and persecuting villian in the drama(not!) She was rescuing him from his miserable marriage, which ironically, became even more miserable the longer the affair went on. So, when dday came, and I and our young adult children asked him: Why didn't you disclose your feelings for another and separate? Why lie to us?He looked like a deer in the headlights. See? He could never be our knight now and he realized his armor was forever tarnished.
mercy Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I didn't tell my love much about my marriage. I knew it would be difficult for an outsider to understand. Hard to understand that my ex-wife had never allowed me to hold her hand, never hugged me, never sat close to me or cuddled, for example. Harder to understand why I stayed with her so long when I love doing those things. It was a lot easier to allow people to make assumptions about our marriage, that I was equally uncomfortable about physical affection (or affection of any kind), that things suited me the way they were and perhaps they did to an extent because I put up with it for long enough. It was easier to let her find out about those things from others, old friends who had known me and my ex-wife for a long time, and from my family, who knew me before the marriage and during the marriage. Easier to let her draw her own conclusions instead of thrusting mine at her. I know when I was "the other man" my ex-wife told me all sorts of things about her marriage, about how bad it was, about how damaged it made her, about how awful her husband was. And with all my teenage naivete I believed her, and thought him heartless and cruel to abuse a damaged woman who needed love and care. I know a large amount of it did not make much sense but I needed to believe it rather than acknowledge that I was yet another dupe being made a fool of by a manipulative woman who fed off other people's energy to run her own delusions. It was only later I was able to acknowledge how I'd fallen into that web of damage and delusion without having the benefit of outside information to verify the reality of any of the claims. And I did not want my love to feel she'd been put in the same position. I wanted her to gather her own evidence, to make her own conclusions, to take her own decisions which of course she would, being far smarter than a sheltered teenager with no worldly experience. My view now is - if it doesn't make much sense, perhaps it isn't true. Or perhaps it is, and you just lack the background or the understanding to connect the dots. If it matters to you to understand, it's worth finding out more and connecting the dots, or finding out that it's not true and moving on. If it doesn't matter to you, shrug and walk away. It takes all sorts to make a world and we can't expect to understand everything or every one. May I presume a few things for a moment? You were a teenager, inexperienced and ready to 'save the world' if not just this one older 'victim', from the cruel cruel h. She sucked you in, chewed you up and spit you out and you remained in that passive aggressive state for years. Toss in a little bitterness and anger at being duped as a boy because make no mistake, you were a boy. And boys grow to manhood and leave their 'mums'. unfortunately this mum was also your wife. I get your resentment towards her now reading some of your posts. I wondered before why you didn't just leave or did you just grow into playing a victim. Of course the old saying, if they'll do it with you they'll do it to you comes into play. Anyway, you were duped as a boy, lied to, even used. Those kind of things take years to mend. Living a happy and fulfilled life really is the best revenge, isn't it? The lies more than anything pertaining to the affair hurt me worse than anything he ever said or did with her. Truthful words no matter how they hurt were healing. The lies nearly destroyed me at the very core of my being. It was truth in the end that healed my soul. The more truthful he became the more trustworthy he became. The more trustworthy he became the more my heart opened to him. But he had to be brave enough to give it to me. And it definitely took courage to own what he had done. That's when I saw the man I fell in love with so many years ago standing in front of me. 1
Furious Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) Oh, my H was her Knight in Shining Armor! Rescuing her from her lonely life and being such an amazing influence on her child who had difficulties. Her xH was the evil and persecuting villian in the drama(not!) She was rescuing him from his miserable marriage, which ironically, became even more miserable the longer the affair went on. So, when dday came, and I and our young adult children asked him: Why didn't you disclose your feelings for another and separate? Why lie to us?He looked like a deer in the headlights. See? He could never be our knight now and he realized his armor was forever tarnished. Will the real WS please stand up. I've noticed that many WS's, including my own, seemed to recreate themselves, to adopt a new persona while in the affair that is vastly different from who they are in real life and in their marriage. I also noticed that many WS's are the ones giving the least in their marriage, perhaps that has a lot to do with the marriage dynamic, especially if the BS is an overachiever and can juggle many of the responsibilities in that marriage. I don't know if that makes sense. Edited July 17, 2012 by Furious 1
Spark1111 Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Will the real WS please stand up. I've noticed that many WS's, including my own, seemed to recreate themselves, to adopt a new persona while in the affair that is vastly different from who they are in real life and in their marriage. I also noticed that many WS's are the ones giving the least in their marriage, perhaps that has a lot to do with the marriage dynamic, especially if the BS is an overachiever and can juggle many of the responsibilities in that marriage. I don't know if that makes sense. It makes perfect sense and has been documented here and elsewhere. Like the very wise 2sure, both OW and BS, one wrote: In an affair, the underlying assumption is Who do you WANT or NEED me to be? And the APs adopt the persona: victim, rescuer, and the unwitting BS becomes the persecutor. Read up on triangulated relationships. That IS the dynamic. And in MC, we learned it is NOT what you are getting from the marriage that defines happiness; it is what you are NOT giving to the relationship. There is also some evidence that the WS begins to emotionally distance themself from their spouse prior to the affair or as the affair is beginning. Big shocker, I know!
Radagast Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I've noticed that many WS's, including my own, seemed to recreate themselves, to adopt a new persona while in the affair that is vastly different from who they are in real life and in their marriage. You say, "who they are in real life and in their marriage" as if these are necessarily the same. I was very different "in real life" (as attested by my family, who knew me prior to my marriage, as well as colleagues, who knew me in a work context, and friends, who socialised with me without my wife) to how I was in my marriage. It was one of the reasons my family did not like my ex-wife, as they did not like the way I was when she was present. Who I was in my affair was far closer to who I was "in real life", rather than the persona I had adopted over decades in my marriage. After I divorced my ex-wife and married my wife, my sister told me that she was really happy that she finally had her brother back. My mother said something similar to my wife. So while I agree that the affair often affords the unfaithful spouse the opportunity to "reinvent" themselves with a different persona to the one they adopt in the marriage, it is not necessarily different to "who they are in real life". Sometimes it is the opportunity to return to "who they are in real life" after a long sojourn playing an increasingly inauthentic role as husband, or father, or whatever role they've been socialised to be within the confines of the marriage / family.
Furious Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) You say, "who they are in real life and in their marriage" as if these are necessarily the same. I was very different "in real life" (as attested by my family, who knew me prior to my marriage, as well as colleagues, who knew me in a work context, and friends, who socialised with me without my wife) to how I was in my marriage. It was one of the reasons my family did not like my ex-wife, as they did not like the way I was when she was present. Who I was in my affair was far closer to who I was "in real life", rather than the persona I had adopted over decades in my marriage. After I divorced my ex-wife and married my wife, my sister told me that she was really happy that she finally had her brother back. My mother said something similar to my wife. So while I agree that the affair often affords the unfaithful spouse the opportunity to "reinvent" themselves with a different persona to the one they adopt in the marriage, it is not necessarily different to "who they are in real life". Sometimes it is the opportunity to return to "who they are in real life" after a long sojourn playing an increasingly inauthentic role as husband, or father, or whatever role they've been socialised to be within the confines of the marriage / family. Your affair seems very typical of an exit affair and that is a completely different kettle of fish compared to most affairs that are discovered and the WS is begging to reconcile . Also, I refered to many WS's in my post, I did not say ALL WS's. Radgast.... you didn't need to have an affair to leave your miserable marriage, you could have left, simply because you hated what you had become in that marriage. I find it troubling that you go to such lengths promoting affairs as life saving, when in reality most affairs bring with them so much pain and devastation. Edited July 17, 2012 by Furious 5
Radagast Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I find it troubling that you go to such lengths promoting affairs as life saving, when in reality most affairs bring with them so much pain and devastion. Many affairs are painful and have no positive results, this is true. I have never I hope tried to represent all affairs as constructive or having positive outcomes. Some have, but many don't. While my own affair led to positive outcomes for almost everyone, it's not something I would recommend as a panacea. Nor is it something I would consider repeating. There is a cost to the unfaithful spouse, aside from the risks and costs to the marriage, and if someone had a marriage that they valued and a spouse they respected, I would caution them in the light of that price and that risk.
Furious Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Many affairs are painful and have no positive results, this is true. I have never I hope tried to represent all affairs as constructive or having positive outcomes. Some have, but many don't. While my own affair led to positive outcomes for almost everyone, it's not something I would recommend as a panacea. Nor is it something I would consider repeating. There is a cost to the unfaithful spouse, aside from the risks and costs to the marriage, and if someone had a marriage that they valued and a spouse they respected, I would caution them in the light of that price and that risk. You could have attained the same outcome in becoming your authentic self if you had divorced. I find it ironic that you had the courage to cheat but lacked the courage to get a divorce when you say how unhappy and miserable you were in your marriage. You were the other man to your first wife, and then you cheated on that first wife becoming the wayward spouse and are now married to the other woman. Was the fear of being alone more frightening than the option of divorce, and why did it have to take finding another woman that you then could divorce. Have you ever lived alone...have you ever just given yourself time to be yourself without being in relationship. Wouldn't that make sense, wouldn't that be the most realistic path to becoming your authentic self. 1
96nole Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 I also noticed that many WS's are the ones giving the least in their marriage, perhaps that has a lot to do with the marriage dynamic, especially if the BS is an overachiever and can juggle many of the responsibilities in that marriage. I don't know if that makes sense. Or maybe it's because the WS is too busy screwing around behind our backs or coming up with whatever bullsh*t reasons to blame the BS for everything this side of the sun.
Furious Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Or maybe it's because the WS is too busy screwing around behind our backs or coming up with whatever bullsh*t reasons to blame the BS for everything this side of the sun. Weren't you the one who was cooking your ex's favorite salmon burgers for dinner while she was out at the beach with the other man. Weren't you the one who spent countless hours by your wife's side when she was in the hospital. The sun must have gotten to her brain. Hahaha
Snowflower Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 there is a thread in the other man/woman section where someone ( I think it is Mercy) noted that if someone's story about their affair doesn't make sense, it's probably not true... have you found this to be true yourself? if you wayward spouse told you things that made no sense, did you find out they were lies? Do you think they even realized they were lies? ( especially in an emotional affair, the spouse may not even realize just how deeply they are in it) FS, your thread title made me laugh out loud (but in a derisive way, not for humor) A few days after d-day, I was talking to a member of my H's family about what he had done. (yes, they also found out) I was lamenting about his continued weird behavior even though he had told me "the worst." I remember that particular family member saying, "if things don't make sense then there is a very good reason for that." I've always remembered this advice and paid heed to it.
MissBee Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 (edited) there is a thread in the other man/woman section where someone ( I think it is Mercy) noted that if someone's story about their affair doesn't make sense, it's probably not true... have you found this to be true yourself? if you wayward spouse told you things that made no sense, did you find out they were lies? Do you think they even realized they were lies? ( especially in an emotional affair, the spouse may not even realize just how deeply they are in it) Sometimes truth is stranger than fiction; however, for me personally, I have good intuition. It's just a matter of if I listen to it instinctively or explain it away when what it says is not what I want to hear. It happens more often that I think/feel a particular way about something, ignore the feeling, and then it bites me on the butt later, then I'm like "I should have known" or "Dang...I knew it!" than the other way around. I've not been a BS, but was cheated on once before that I know of. Yes, the stuff he said made no sense and my intuition kicked in that these things didn't make sense--sure enough I later found out he was cheating. Unrelated to cheating, in general, I've often experienced something just not ringing true to me and not adding up...and every time I've felt that way, I later found out it was indeed because it was not true. I personally get a different feeling when something is a "strange truth" versus "strange lies". Edited July 17, 2012 by MissBee 1
96nole Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Weren't you the one who was cooking your ex's favorite salmon burgers for dinner while she was out at the beach with the other man. Weren't you the one who spent countless hours by your wife's side when she was in the hospital. The sun must have gotten to her brain. Hahaha Guilty Guilty You're assuming she has a brain? 1
2sure Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 It was frustrating originally but later humorous: When he lied to me and I called him on it....he would be so ticked off that I didnt believe him. Even if it made zero sense. I remember toward the end telling him....When you talk like that, it makes me think you shouldnt be driving.
Furious Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 It was frustrating originally but later humorous: When he lied to me and I called him on it....he would be so ticked off that I didnt believe him. Even if it made zero sense. I remember toward the end telling him....When you talk like that, it makes me think you shouldnt be driving. It is humorous...the stunned look on their face...the mind boggling dribble that comes out of their mouths and then expecting you buy their full of holes story, and seeing them get pissed off that you've asked them to repeat what the hell they just said.
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