Author Spinning Posted July 17, 2012 Author Posted July 17, 2012 TRANSLATION: PA will be starting very soon. (Stage is set) Let me at least maintain some small snippet of credibility please. My first thought this morning was my W and not looking down my phone for messages (there were none and I sent none)
2sure Posted July 17, 2012 Posted July 17, 2012 Spinning....I hope you and your wife figure out together what you both want to do with this marriage...Because if you don't, it just seems like you will be shopping for an affair. On another note...you mentioned you have recovered from one addiction. You might want to give some consideration to..... giving up one addiction often leads to another, like self medicating in a different way for example. The chemical reactions of being with someone you find exciting are a good way to get to your happy place....but not at the expense of others. just a thought.
Athena Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Good to hear you two didn't do anything physical. There's plenty of time in your future for that if that's where you both want to go. right at the very end I asked her to look me in the eyes and after 2 hours of telling me from the head, tell me from the heart do you want to finish this now. Not good maybe I should have asked that first. So -- how did she reply to this question? In that time I got a heck of a lot off my chest. Talked about my history, my marriage, my life, my kids and how one way or another I need to sort my life out and it has to start here. Said, as I've stated here, that when I get back to Europe I need to sort out my marriage one way or another. I also pushed and got a bit more background on her life. This is a real pity -- when you were busy talking, talking, talking, filling her in about your history, marriage, life, kids, and thoughts, hopes, dreams and future aspirations, you were only BONDING further with your OW! You were creating a sense of Shared History with her, and that only serves to STRENGTHEN your bonds with her, backwards in time, as well as the shared history you two have had in the last couple of years, and not beginning to distance yourself. You thus moved Closer to her. as far as I'm concerned A is over and I viewed last night as an opportunity to get every last bit of crap out of my system, so in that respect yes I guess the E in EA was still in play. -- so it looks like you DO understand you were still connecting emotionally with her. 1
Athena Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I feel that when affair partners are busy Connecting their souls to each other, that Something is Stolen from the marriage itself... never mind the exclusivity of the marriage, but your moving closer to another intimate connection, necessarily 'steals' from your primary intimate relationship. In the last few months your A has gotten closer, while undoubtedly your M has suffered a bit of distancing (and it's not only due to being physically away from home, but because you're putting all your best efforts elsewhere). Just an observation. 1
Author Spinning Posted July 18, 2012 Author Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) So -- how did she reply to this question? It was all in the eyes I'm afraid and I said thats all I need to know. -- so it looks like you DO understand you were still connecting emotionally with her. Yep and sorry for deleting the rest of your observations. I'm not undermining them or your comment that these should be things for W. The way I saw things was if I didn't get all of it out there'd be unfinished business and the perfect excuse to go out again and again. Maybe not your your way of dealing with things but a big help for me. Apols for not bolding responses I'm struggling with new phone ! Look if you'd said to me a week ago I'd be here trying to make sense of it all I'd have laughed. Re the addiction I'm proud to say I've invested too much in life to relapse on that. I can see a broad similarity in my behaviour which is leading me towards taking similar steps here in starting to accept and recognise my faults and as a first step get my energies focussed on something completely new. I know there are a few embittered BS on here and the hurt and destruction is obvious. I've made what I see is a start by not pouring oil on troubled waters. Edited July 18, 2012 by Spinning 2
turnera Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 The most important thing is ALWAYS personal growth. Good job. 1
Athena Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Maybe not your your way of dealing with things but a big help for me. Yup, no expectation here of you doing things 'my' way or anything.... we all just chip in with suggestions, which you can take what works for you and leave the rest. Look if you'd said to me a week ago I'd be here trying to make sense of it all I'd have laughed. Re the addiction I'm proud to say I've invested too much in life to relapse on that. I can see a broad similarity in my behaviour which is leading me towards taking similar steps here in starting to accept and recognise my faults and as a first step get my energies focussed on something completely new. I know there are a few embittered BS on here and the hurt and destruction is obvious. I've made what I see is a start by not pouring oil on troubled waters. embittered? How do you define that? Angry, maybe, hurt, definitely... dunno about embittered? I don't know if your dealing with an addiction indicates you have an 'addictive personality' and whether that makes you more vulnerable to having an affair? As for 'telling your wife', if that is not for you, then don't do it, but just be forewarned that her mind will definitely jump there FIRST, and any denials on your part will only make her search harder. I don't know what is right FOR YOU... I can only comment, and you can say heck no, or hmmm okay, or maybe... you're not going to offend me if you say 'no way'. I volunteer as an EMT (ambulance) in my spare time; I like to help people... just say I'm trying to help you too.
Athena Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 The value in your posting here is that you get a different perspective to your own.... some people pay a counselor to get that. You and OW have been spinning your own little cacoon of intimacy, on your own, without anyone disturbing you, for quite a while. It's time someone pointed out things to you. You betcha your wife will! And friends, family, colleagues, etc will ALL have their own personal take on your activities... these things do not stay underground forever... if you value your success in life thus far, and value your job and future potential, you will cease trying to wreck your life with this affair. You're being forced to look at things, slow down, THINK, and try a different way.
Author Spinning Posted July 18, 2012 Author Posted July 18, 2012 Embittered was meant in the sense you quantified better than me. And I'm not looking to addiction as an excuse. That's one thing recovery teaches. Responsibility for my actions is ME. Personality and other factors are triggers but they can be controlled. Most people can do that before the event. I clearly can't.
woinlove Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 (edited) I'm under no illusions about how much of a coward I'm going to be about laying ALL the cards on the table back in Europe. I respect the rights of the BS on here to vent their spleen and I'm happy for your comments but I wouldn't mind seeing a few more WS thoughts on the situation as well. Did you come clean or are there still some facts that you've never brought out. I hope some WS who stayed married respond. Some who post here have stayed married (so far) and aren't completely honest with their spouse, but none of those have an M that I (or many others) would want. Intimacy, like the type you have shared with the OW, is what feeds a satisfying M. Dishonesty does the opposite. If you decide you don't want to stay married, then it's mainly a matter of what you need to feel good about yourself. Personally, honesty is important for me and I'd be honest anyway in order to feel good about myself and how I treat others. However, some who ended their M and post here were not honest and seem fine with it. I think it is simpler if you decide not to stay married as you mainly have to worry about your relationship with yourself in that case - much simpler than both that and maintaining a satisfying, committed M too. Edited July 18, 2012 by woinlove
Athena Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Responsibility for my actions is ME. Personality and other factors are triggers but they can be controlled. Most people can do that before the event. I clearly can't. But now you did, you stopped your affair from going physical!
onthefence210 Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I hope some WS who stayed married respond. Some who post here have stayed married (so far) and aren't completely honest with their spouse, but none of those have an M that I (or many others) would want. Intimacy, like the type you have shared with the OW, is what feeds a satisfying M. Dishonesty does the opposite. If you decide you don't want to stay married, then it's mainly a matter of what you need to feel good about yourself. Personally, honesty is important for me and I'd be honest anyway in order to feel good about myself and how I treat others. However, some who ended their M and post here were not honest and seem fine with it. I think it is simpler if you decide not to stay married as you mainly have to worry about your relationship with yourself in that case - much simpler than both that and maintaining a satisfying, committed M too. I totally agree with the honesty thing in a marriage. We take vows and promise to be faithful yet we forget to add the commitment to being honest. Some lie by ommission and some lie to themselves to make the situation/the marriage theyre in tolerable so that they don't have to face the consequences of the reality of the situation. Some affairs go on for a long time because there isn't any reason to lie to the AP, the R is based on honesty. Two people choosing to stay because of it, entangling themselves with emotional intimacy because there are no expectations, no false sense of security. You hit it when u said "intimacy like this satifies a M" its when u allow yourself vulnerable with truth that trust is built. If u look at why some A's end it's when one or both start to lie about what's next, empty promises, excuses, whether it be lying to AP or lying to ones self. even when the A is discovered, and NC is applied to the A, it's the truth that ultimately will make or break recovery. I often wondered if couples were able to be honest about their attraction to someone else or temptation, if they could just be honest to their spouse, not saying hey I'm thinking about having an A if you don't have more sex with me, or u don't satisfy my needs, but just honest human emotions, would that build more trust, build a stronger commitment to being monogamous instead of feeling entitled to it, when clearly we live in a society that glamorizes it, makes all kinds of excuses for it and more then 1/2 the population have or will be doing it in their lifetime??? I guess that's another thread...but truly think you hit what is the foundation to a fulfilling marriage. So Spinning...start with being honest with yourself. You came here and that shows you are truly looking for help. What do u want out of this short life? People change in a marriage, they make the wrong choices but it's up to you to define who u want to be. Is the marriage that you've had worth saving? Is there something different you can do to bring that intimacy to your marriage? And no u can't use the excuse that being away doesn't allow for sexual/emotional intimacy with your wife, when there are so many other ways u can still have that and be apart. It's a maturity thing and whether or not what ur job is worth to you, second to what your needs are worth. If your marriage isn't worth making the sacrifice to explore other means of connecting on these levels, given the reality of your situation...then that's the honesty you should be sharing with your wife. Give her the option with all the truths on the table so that she can be honest with herself. But don't make decisions based on your OW. The relationship may be exactly what you need, but you can't build a foundation on 1/2 truths. Where u are finally being honest with yourself and your needs but you still can't be honest with the person who deserves the truth too...your wife. If only relationships stayed true to their commitment of being faithful, but until your living an honest authentic life will you be able to keep your promises or be able to say...I can't promise u that!
Furious Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 Spinning The other woman knows about your wife, your wife on the other hand doesn't know there is another woman. If your wife knew...would she still be doing, contributing, going along as she is in this marriage. No way! The BS is the weakest link in a triangle that they don't even know exits or are a part of. The other two sides in the triangle are manipulating, planning, making decisions, setting up an agenda that excludes the BS from the reality and the choices they have a right to. Is is fair...is this ok... A great deal of time spent in an affair are the accolades, volleys of compliments, telling each other what good people you are, how wonderful you think you both are. But really, are liars, who are engrossed in deceit all that wonderful. 1
Radagast Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 perhaps it would be best if he were honest with everyone involved... I agree that that is optimal. But if that were the case, he would already have told his wife during one of their regular phone calls. He admitted to being afraid of being fully honest with his wife. Hopefully that can change, but in the meantime, it is good that he has at least one person that he can be fully honest with. I'm sure those on the other side will scoff at the idea, but being unfaithful can be a difficult burden to bear alone. Like any "dark secret" that you feel - or know - you can't confide to anyone, it becomes heavier daily by the solitude it commands. I was lucky in that I did not have to bear it as a guilty secret, but for those who do it can be extremely tough. Space to be completely open and honest is really important, for everyone. Not least for an unfaithful spouse. this really has nothing to do with being alone...it has much more to do with the OP's poor sense of boundaries, etc. ...Radagast- you say you love your wife? if you had to be away from her for a few months, would you cheat on her just because you were "alone"? I do not have the same vulnerabilities as those expressed by Spinning, and this thread is not about me. Spinning said that being alone for so long made him feel vulnerable. That self awareness is important. If he knows that feeling alone for so long makes him feel vulnerable, he needs to admit that to his wife and let her know the risks it poses for him, and their relationship, if they intend to stay married. I wasn't intending it as a blaming exercise, but if you've identified a vulnerability in yourself then that is something you need to be honest about insofar as it impacts on a relationship that matters to you. If being alone posed no risk to Spinning, there would be no need for him to mention it to his wife. Rather than judging the appropriateness of whether he should or should not feel vulnerable and at risk because of being alone for so long, I think it is more constructive to accept that he does and work from there. I think this advice is given from the perspective of someone who hasn't been in the position of this guy's wife...not telling her only means that she may well spend the rest of her days blaming herself for the fact that her marriage failed. Honesty in a marriage is really important, even if it's failing. Would she blame herself more or less if she knew there was someone else involved in his leaving? I think that is moot. Some people would rather believe their relationship failed on its own merits and others would rather believe that, were it not for someone else, they'd still be together. If she wanted to know if someone else was involved, she could always ask, and be given the information then. I think that saying, I'm leaving you for someone else implies that someone else was able to meet your needs in a way that your spouse wasn't, in this case by remaining in Europe rather than accompanying Spinning to Hong Kong, which could result in even more self-blame than simply accepting that during the five months they grew apart. believe it or not, I actually agree with this, to a point. The problem is that, at first, it may well come off like you are blaming your wife for your choices, or that you are excusing or minimizing you behavior. At first it's probably far better to allow your wife to ahve her grief without attempting to assign any "blame" for it. After the initial shock of finding out then it will be the time to discuss the why's and wherefores...this is where having a skilled counselor can pay a huge part. Sometimes having a third party involved in the discussion can make a huge difference. My point was that it should not be used, or hopefully seen, as an excuse or a blaming activity. But it is important to explore fully how and why it happened, which is why I like the idea from co-counselling of one person getting to speak without interruption to say their say fully, and the "conch" then passing to the other, who gets to say their say fully and without interruption. Because it is so easy for both the unfaithful and the betrayed spouse in this scenario to assign the moral high ground to the betrayed, and to attach more weight and "validity" to their emotional response, there is a risk of the unfaithful spouse's voice becoming silenced and the issues suppressed rather than being resolved. And yes, I fully support a good counsellor as a third party to create that space.
woinlove Posted July 18, 2012 Posted July 18, 2012 I agree that that is optimal. But if that were the case, he would already have told his wife during one of their regular phone calls. He admitted to being afraid of being fully honest with his wife. Hopefully that can change, but in the meantime, it is good that he has at least one person that he can be fully honest with. I'm sure those on the other side will scoff at the idea, but being unfaithful can be a difficult burden to bear alone. Like any "dark secret" that you feel - or know - you can't confide to anyone, it becomes heavier daily by the solitude it commands. I was lucky in that I did not have to bear it as a guilty secret, but for those who do it can be extremely tough. Space to be completely open and honest is really important, for everyone. Not least for an unfaithful spouse. I think that depends on the person. If opening up and being honest with one person meant I was further deceiving and betraying my spouse, I would feel even worse. I think a lot of people who value honesty, openness, loyalty would feel this way. Also, if one is feeling that bad about a dark secret, I don't think confiding only in the person who is sharing the dark secret with you will solve much. A counsellor, another friend, anyone who is not directly involved in the behavior that is making one feel so bad, would seem preferable. 1
Author Spinning Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 Ok first big test. We're both at a client event and both on second bottle of red. Give me strength to bale out gracefully. Just posting on here helps me in that one
woinlove Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Ok first big test. We're both at a client event and both on second bottle of red. Give me strength to bale out gracefully. Just posting on here helps me in that one Why are you on a second bottle of red under the circumstances? Do you think more alcohol helps you to behave the way you want to? If I didn't trust my self-control to act in a way which was how I truly wanted to behave, I would avoid consuming too much alcohol. 2
Janesays Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Why are you on a second bottle of red under the circumstances? Do you think more alcohol helps you to behave the way you want to? If I didn't trust my self-control to act in a way which was how I truly wanted to behave, I would avoid consuming too much alcohol. Oh, he just wants an excuse to do the deed. Been looking for one ever since he started this thread. 2
frozensprouts Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Ok first big test. We're both at a client event and both on second bottle of red. Give me strength to bale out gracefully. Just posting on here helps me in that one oh dear... Spinning, you can do better than this! Don't use alcohol for a crutch... Something you write here really makes me question what your other woman said about not wanting to be involved with you..if she doesn't, then why is there any need for you to 'bale out gracefully"? Why wouldn't she understand and, if she is truly a "friend" and supportive of you, and not be out having a few too many with you? ( client event or not...is drinking a large amount of wine a requirement? Why are you even together at this event? If she really didn't want to be there with you, she'd find a way to either be elsewhere or at the event but separated form you...) It really sounds like a setup for a "blame it on the bottle" kind of thing...
Furious Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Thousands of miles from home. Mid-life crisis. No... Yes ...No......two bottles of red wine. Things are moving along with the script and we know how the movie will end. Cliche at it's very best. 2
PuntserVA Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 You're going to have a lot of them. I speak from experience. Either have the courage to leave your marriage, or have the courage to avoid the temptation and make your marriage beautiful. Being in between might feel OK now, but eventually it will not, in a really big huge way.
nofool4u Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 Thousands of miles from home. Mid-life crisis. No... Yes ...No......two bottles of red wine. Yup, and he will use the bottles of wine as his excuse. I wish there was a way his wife would catch them.
frozensprouts Posted July 19, 2012 Posted July 19, 2012 I'm home alone end of story how do you feel? did getting through this help bring insight into any of the feelings you've been having? one day at a time...
Author Spinning Posted July 19, 2012 Author Posted July 19, 2012 I think that depends on the person. If opening up and being honest with one person meant I was further deceiving and betraying my spouse, I would feel even worse. I think a lot of people who value honesty, openness, loyalty would feel this way. Also, if one is feeling that bad about a dark secret, I don't think confiding only in the person who is sharing the dark secret with you will solve much. A counsellor, another friend, anyone who is not directly involved in the behavior that is making one feel so bad, would seem preferable. how do you feel? did getting through this help bring insight into any of the feelings you've been having? one day at a time... For now nothing else matters in life apart from this hangover Actually last night was easy
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