Lonely Lover Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 Hi all, I have a question about the place jealousy/insecurity has in a relationship. First a backstory: Months ago, my bf and I met a woman at the dog park. She was very flirtatious with my bf, but while he seemed to enjoy the attention I never felt like he was flirting back. One day he mentioned that she was interested in getting coffee with him. It may not obvious to an outsider that we're a couple (we rarely show PDA, and we arrive separately), so I asked him if she knew we were together. He said he didn't know. I asked if he would mention me to her before getting coffee. He insisted she wasn't romantically interested in him, said he'd prefer to show her during coffee that he never thought of her as more than a friend. I was uncomfortable with that approach, and even though he thought I was unreasonable he eventually he told her he was too busy to meet for coffee. Since then he's refused to go to that dog park, but otherwise we let the subject drop. Last weekend I ran into her again. Within two minutes she brought up my bf. She said she saw him a few days prior & they had a nice talk, then asked me if his schedule lightens up during the summer. I said we hadn't had much time free, but that we'd managed to get away for a romantic weekend earlier this month. She looked surprised but didn't say anything about it, and after a minute longer we stopped talking. Later that morning I told my bf about the interaction, and that it "threw me a little" (my exact words). I didn't accuse him of anything; I wasn't tearful or angry. He was really upset at me for letting the woman bother me. He couldn't believe I could experience any jealousy, because I ought to "know" he was only interested in me. It turned into a huge fight that lasted days. In his mind, any type of jealous/insecure reaction is unacceptable. He said the only time someone should feel jealous is if her partner has done something inappropriate, not a third party. He thinks that it's a sign of unacceptable self esteem issues, and opens the door to more over-the-top jealousy. I've always thought some jealous feelings were a natural part of a relationship, and as long as they're approached calmly can even help strengthen the relationship. What do you think LS'ers? In a relationship, is it ever reasonable to feel or express jealousy or insecurity?
counterman Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 In my opinion, he should have let her know that you and him were dating. Was he actually considering getting coffee with her? I think it's natural to feel a little jealous and, personally, I would want a girl I'm dating to be comfortable enough with me to bring up a situation like yours and express her discomfort. I certainly wouldn't get angry. We all have our insecurities but if it's excessive and constantly weighing us down, that's different matter. Partly what contributed to my last break-up was because I was madly insecure when my girlfriend spoke to other guys. (Partly, it was because she was flirting back though ) That clearly didn't do our relationship any good.
Author Lonely Lover Posted July 14, 2012 Author Posted July 14, 2012 He said he wanted to meet her for coffee as friends. They both play a sport I don't, so she wanted to talk to him about the sporting groups in town. The coffee itself didn't bother me too much. It was refusing to tell her about me beforehand. I have a few male friends (all of whom know when I'm dating someone), so I'm not one of the strict "no friends of the opposite sex" types. He insists he never lets jealousy bother him for more than a split second, and says his ex wife was the same way as him. He's shocked by my level of jealousy.... I didn't think I was acting so crazy, but now I'm really doubting myself.
without Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 Honestly I am jealous in a relationship and I think its a good thing to some extent. When I see a guy i'm dating gets jealous, I like it. Makes me feel wanted. A little jealousy is always good.
MarlyStar Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 One day he mentioned that she was interested in getting coffee with him. It may not obvious to an outsider that we're a couple (we rarely show PDA, and we arrive separately), so I asked him if she knew we were together. He said he didn't know. I asked if he would mention me to her before getting coffee. He insisted she wasn't romantically interested in him, said he'd prefer to show her during coffee that he never thought of her as more than a friend. I was uncomfortable with that approach, and even though he thought I was unreasonable he eventually he told her he was too busy to meet for coffee. ... Later that morning I told my bf about the interaction, and that it "threw me a little" (my exact words). I didn't accuse him of anything; I wasn't tearful or angry. He was really upset at me for letting the woman bother me. He couldn't believe I could experience any jealousy, because I ought to "know" he was only interested in me. You got played. This is the same game that people who get caught cheating when their partner snoops play. "It's no big deal that I'm screwing your sister, the REAL issue is YOU VIOLATED MY PRIVACY, that's an absolute dealbreaker!" Your boyfriend did not want this other woman to know he was romantically attached to you and you blew his game and that's what he's so mad about. And since he doesn't want you to realize that he's 'hiding' your relationship, he diverted your attention off his actions (not being upfront about his relationship status) and onto your deficits (a smidge of jealousy). I know you will say, hey, he didn't flirt back, he stopped going to the dog park, they didn't go to coffee when he realized I didn't like it, so he's not interested in her and thus has no reason to hide our relationship. But he did hide it. He has an independent relationship with her. Were you there when she asked him out for coffee? No? Then he's having contact with her without you. A different dog park maybe? Text, email, FB, something. He's interacting with her. Enough so that she knows something about his busy schedule. Enough that she's asked him out to coffee and apparently to other things since his schedule has come up. You asked him, "Does she know we are a couple" and he said he didn't know. He knows HE didn't tell her, he knows YOU didn't tell her, so the only way she would know is if she guessed/assumed. And since he's been communicating with her he's given her enough evidence to sooth that assumption. Most women who see a man with another woman assume they are a couple--unless she interacts with him often without that woman, or worse...unless he's actually said about you, "We are just friends". And my guess is that's what happened. He was toying with the idea of seeing her behind your back, or at least getting the ego strokes that come from having a woman pursue, and he DID say about you, 'we are just friends', and thus when you mentioned the romantic weekend you not only burst his little game but you made a liar out of him. I don't know how important she was to him or if he was actually really willing to risk losing you for something with her, but he was enjoying her interest and you ruined it. I can see him being miffed that he lost the ego strokes by your comment, but that doesn't warrant his rather extreme reaction. What does explain the attack upon your character and a fight that lasted days is if you embarrassed or exposed him as a liar to her. You exposed his lack of character so in the fight he is exposing yours: your supposed jealousy. As I said, you got played: he's totalling BSing you.
MarlyStar Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 One day he mentioned that she was interested in getting coffee with him....He insisted she wasn't romantically interested in him, said he'd prefer to show her during coffee that he never thought of her as more than a friend. LOL. What BS. Yep, and when they have sex, he'll simply be demonstrating just how little attraction he has for her. The best way to show her during coffee that he's not interested in her more than a friend is to take his GIRLFRIEND with him when he meets her for coffee. That would show her clear as a bell.
Author Lonely Lover Posted July 14, 2012 Author Posted July 14, 2012 He got her email one day so he could forward her information about a coed soccer league. He sent it, she asked if he'd like to meet for coffee one day. I highly doubt they've met since then, but of course there's never a guarantee. For the sake of argument, though, I'd like you to put accusations of cheating/jerk behavior regarding the coffee date aside. Not because I think you're wrong, but because our relationship is gasping its last breath anyway. We clearly have very different ideas of acceptable boundaries & communication within a relationship, to the extent that compromising seems impossible anymore. My real issue is, going forward, what level of jealousy/insecurity is considered normal in a relationship? And if any insecurity is acceptable, to what extent is sharing those feelings with your partner "ok?" Do most of you find it acceptable to be asked to change your behavior, if it's making your partner uncomfortable? We've been dating a couple years; this is not a new relationship.
Ruby65 Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 The only boyfriends I've ever had who accused me of having a jealousy problem.... turned out to be cheating on me! But yeah, I get jealous if I see someone flirting with my partner -- even just on Facebook -- and I've always expressed it. This is pretty rare, though, except in the cases of the above-mentioned cheaters. In general, I think you should be able to talk about these things pretty freely. I like my partner to tell me if something I do hurts him, so I can stop doing it.... I'd hope he feels the same way about me.
veggirl Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 So, showing natural human emotion is unacceptable to your boyfriend? Expressing your concerns is not allowed? Nice! I would honestly dump this guy. He was setting up a date with another girl! How was he going to "show her" he has a girlfriend? He can't tell her? She seemed shocked to find out you were romantically involved from you, because he refused to tell her. How often does he run into this woman? Seems like they talk pretty often..?
MarlyStar Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 ... our relationship is gasping its last breath anyway. We clearly have very different ideas of acceptable boundaries & communication within a relationship, to the extent that compromising seems impossible anymore... I was going to ask why you chose the handle Lonely Lover, but this explains it. Every relationship negotiates what is acceptable levels of jealousy. It's different for everyone. The red flag is not only his behavior but your own; when you were describing the situation you were defensive and careful to point out that you brought the matter up tactfully and non-accusatorily. You should be able to say what you think or feel in a relationship without having to walk on eggshells.
MarlyStar Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 Last weekend I ran into her again. Within two minutes she brought up my bf. She said she saw him a few days prior & they had a nice talk, then asked me if his schedule lightens up during the summer. You may 'highly doubt' he's seen her since and think they were just emailing soccer schedules, but clearly not. And if he 'gave up' the dog park, he's seeing her some place else.
Jane2011 Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 Four or five years ago - heck, even just three years ago, really - I would have been mostly on your side. In the past two years or so, I lean toward your boyfriend's way of thinking. Mind you, I don't think you're bad or immature for feeling jealousy; you're human; we all experience it, including me. It's just that my attitude toward jealousy has changed in recent years. Not to mention I was recently somewhat 'victim' to a jealous girlfriend, so I don't look too favorably upon it. Years ago, when I was in a long term relationship, I had a situation similar to yours. My boyfriend had some female friends who were work colleagues or hobbies-sharers who he occasionally wanted to get together with for lunch. I freaked about it. I felt like he shouldn't be having dinner or lunches with females without me around. The thing is, though, it was only because they were attractive. If he had dinner or lunch with an unattractive female friend to talk about work or a shared interest, I wouldn't have minded. So it just reminds you of how shallow it is to stop him from having lunch or dinner or coffee just because she's kinda good-looking with a cool personality. At any rate, I believe less and less in controlling a mate, even if it's coming from love and affection. It just seems...insecure to me. If they're only with you because you've got them in a tightly sealed box, it's almost like you're living a lie anyway. My boyfriend felt the same way your boyfriend feels, i.e. "Don't be jealous unless I actually do something. Don't be insecure unless I actually do something. It's ridiculous." Some people are saying your guy is only just trying to cover up for his 'probable' plans to cheat. But I don't know. Can't say for sure. I don't know you or him. But I do think men have principles. Jealous girlfriends are annoying to them. He could very well be speaking on principle when he says it bothers him that you're this jealous just because he wants to have coffee with a woman. He wants to know he's with a mature, self-secure woman, and you're not acting like one when you say "Tell her we're together" or "Take me with you." I mean, put yourself in the same position. Wouldn't it make you see your guy as immature if he said "Take me with you" or "Make sure he knows we're together"? (well, I guess all of us differ on that). I'm not saying I'm normal. I've just become less controlling. Life's too short to try to make people do what I want, or to hem them in. Also, if he knows you to be insecure in general (even before this particular woman came along), he may be acting this way to put you to some sort of "need to shape up" test. Like, he knows it's no big deal between him and her, and he *could* and *would* tell her about you and him, but he's trying to use it as an opportunity to make you stop being jealous.
SincereOnlineGuy Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 Months ago, my bf and I met a woman at the dog park. She was very flirtatious with my bf, but while he seemed to enjoy the attention I never felt like he was flirting back. One day he mentioned that she was interested in getting coffee with him. It may not obvious to an outsider that we're a couple (we rarely show PDA, and we arrive separately), so I asked him if she knew we were together. He said he didn't know. I asked if he would mention me to her before getting coffee. He insisted she wasn't romantically interested in him, said he'd prefer to show her during coffee that he never thought of her as more than a friend. I was uncomfortable with that approach, and even though he thought I was unreasonable he eventually he told her he was too busy to meet for coffee. Since then he's refused to go to that dog park, but otherwise we let the subject drop. Last weekend I ran into her again. Within two minutes she brought up my bf. She said she saw him a few days prior & they had a nice talk, then asked me if his schedule lightens up during the summer. I said we hadn't had much time free, but that we'd managed to get away for a romantic weekend earlier this month. She looked surprised but didn't say anything about it, and after a minute longer we stopped talking. Later that morning I told my bf about the interaction, and that it "threw me a little" (my exact words). I didn't accuse him of anything; I wasn't tearful or angry. He was really upset at me for letting the woman bother me. He couldn't believe I could experience any jealousy, because I ought to "know" he was only interested in me. It turned into a huge fight that lasted days. In his mind, any type of jealous/insecure reaction is unacceptable. He said the only time someone should feel jealous is if her partner has done something inappropriate, not a third party. He thinks that it's a sign of unacceptable self esteem issues, and opens the door to more over-the-top jealousy. I've always thought some jealous feelings were a natural part of a relationship, and as long as they're approached calmly can even help strengthen the relationship. What do you think LS'ers? In a relationship, is it ever reasonable to feel or express jealousy or insecurity? Some of these other answers, and your position on the matter, are crazy. You've demonstrated exactly nothing to suggest that the 3rd party knew you were a couple prior to the mention of her surprised reaction at the notion of your romantic getaway together with your BF. Not only that, but you did nothing during that first encounter to give the 3rd party that impression/understanding. Then, you brought this entire charade here for a seeming trial before evolving to testify against yourself at every turn. What if all of the gender roles were opposite here: You're an insecure guy, your now-BF is the apparent hottie girl... and the 3rd party at the park is some smarmy guy as lowly and guilty as your imagination (loves) to sense this woman to be. The woefully insecure guy turns up at the park, and somehow lands the close proximity/attention of the apparent hottie girl (for reasons which to this day baffle onlookers). Then some 3rd party smarmy guy (with the vibe of "Mike Damone") arrives on scene, sees the apparent hottie girl and approaches her as he does all others. In what world is the insecure guy not responsible for making at least some effort at letting it be clear that indeed he is in a relationship with the apparent hottie girl ???? In that scenario everyone watching the movie knows that Mike Damone wants to bone your apparent hottie girlfriend. Yet it is simple reality that, while men have zero interest in befriending women they don't really want to bang (instead), the parallel is not true of women. You didn't keep writing your little screenplay long enough so that the 3rd party did anything inappropriate, and your condemnation of your boyfriend does not take into account the differences between men and women. Your boyfriend is NOT guilty of pursuing this woman in any way, no matter how much you're trying to squeeze that square peg into this round hole. Had they encountered one another while, for some reason, you and the bf were hanging out at a cross-town singles bar, and he seemed to give-in to her innocent approach, that would be one thing. But for this to transpire in, oh, say, a neighborhood dog park (perhaps where "Mike Damone" wouldn't be caught dead)(and where, perhaps, they might, oh, say, encounter one another again does not automatically condemn any of the parties involved (except YOU). And while the usual Loveshack approach is to reflect only in hindsight on what went wrong with failed relationships passed, you have a chance to gather yourself and maybe evolve in a positive direction so as to maybe dodge the usual ending. Finally, the question isn't whether it is ok to feel jealousy (in or out-of a relationship). What you have here, is a case where your boyfriend happened to see/take your proverbial temperature, showing everyone clearly that it is waaaaaaaay above what is relative to 98.6, and now it is up to you to gain understanding from it and alter the way you are effectively treating yourself so as to avoid the long-term effects of what ails you.
Author Lonely Lover Posted July 14, 2012 Author Posted July 14, 2012 Same for me, Ruby, I've been accused of jealousy in past relationships only when I had a damn good reason to be jealous. But this issue doesn't seem to be one of infidelity on his part, but a difference of boundaries. She herself said that she hadn't seen either of us for months, and that was before she realized we were together (i.e. no reason to lie). MarlyStar, my handle is pretty old, from a relationship several years ago. I was just too lazy to make another one. I do feel like I have to be very careful to show emotion in this relationship. He is very, very logical, and as such has nearly no patience for tears or jealousy. I think Jane's answer reflects his position perfectly. He considers his boundaries & ethical standing solid, and takes great pride in it. He was insulted I could even doubt that, after all the time we've spent together. I really don't think I'm jealous in general (he has female friends & goes to coffee with them, doesn't bother me), but this woman in particular made me pause. Perhaps because I saw her flirting with him, so know her interest isn't strictly platonic.
FitChick Posted July 14, 2012 Posted July 14, 2012 If I feel secure in a relationship, I don't get jealous. In your scenario, I would have suggested the three of us go for coffee saying later, "I need more female friends". Keep your friends close and your enemies closer. I think the reason you felt jealous is because you know your relationship is on shaky ground anyway.
Author Lonely Lover Posted July 14, 2012 Author Posted July 14, 2012 SOG, thanks for the long reply. I'd like to answer a couple points you brought up individually, and then ask you to rephrase because I'm a bit confused on your last points. First, during our interactions at the park, when all three of us were there, I wasn't feeling upset or threatened. I saw some harmless chatting & flirting, nothing to get upset/concerned about. There was no reason, in my eyes, to "stake my territory;" not because I was afriad to, just because it didn't occur to me that I need to. I didn't know they'd exchanged contact information until days later, when he mentioned going to coffee with her. The first time I've seen her since she asked him out was the time I mentioned, when I made it clear that we are together. Second, I have no issue with the woman at all, I'm sorry you got that impression. She seems well-intentioned, and I never thought she was knowingly encroaching on a relationship. I think she just met a guy she was interested in & wanted to get to know him better. So, I've never felt woefully insecure or afraid to make it clear we were together. I also never accused my boyfriend of pursuing her, and I never accused the woman of knowingly pursuing an unavailable man. I only wanted him to clear up a situation before seeing someone again. And when faced with the realization that they are still talking when I'm not around and she still doesn't know we were together, I got uncomfortable. The parts I don't understand: How you think I should evolve in order to "dodge the usual ending?" What usual ending? How am I mistreating myself? And what do you mean by saying I had a high temperature? That I was overreacting to the situation?
Ruby65 Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 I don't think your bf was intending to cheat on you. I think he was being naive -- and a bit arrogant -- in assuming this woman's invitation wasn't based on romantic interest, but was just friendly because they had things in common. I don't think YOU over-reacted at all. HE under-reacted -- and even SHE was surprised to learn he wasn't single and available because he had obviously acted as if he was single by accepting her invitation and never clarifying you were a couple. You aren't un-evolved at all. My bf recently misinterpreted something completely innocent on my FB wall and got a little jealous over it..... frankly I was really flattered when he brought it up and we laughed about it. Don't let your bf -- or anyone here -- make you paranoid about your perfectly natural reaction to this situation.
Silly_Girl Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 You have every right to expect your boyfriend to set up a coffee date for the THREE of you, and to make it clear to her "if my girlfriend's free I expect she'd like to join us". I don't think his intentions sound dishonourable but I think he got a buzz from the attention. If he can't understand why you have an issue then I think the problem could be bigger than it looks.
Author Lonely Lover Posted July 15, 2012 Author Posted July 15, 2012 Thanks for the replies. I really don't think he was planning anything sketchy by meeting for coffee. The issue wasn't that he wanted to go, it was that he wasn't willing to compromise his behavior to make me feel comfortable. And then, when I ran into her again, this issue wasn't that she asked about him; it's that when I mentioned it to him it caused a big fight. And I agree with some posters, when I'm confident about a relationship I don't feel jealousy. And yes, if my bf and I were doing really well otherwise, this probably wouldn't have caught my attention. On the other hand, if we came from more compatible concepts of how a relationship "should" work, we probably wouldn't be on shaky ground. The surprising thing is, he doesn't think we disagree much. I've had more issues with him than anyone else in my past, but he sees our interactions as completely normal. Exhausting.
SincereOnlineGuy Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 In an effort to "rephrase" concisely: Months ago... otherwise we let the subject drop. What do you think LS'ers? We think you are lying. if my bf and I were doing really well otherwise, this probably wouldn't have caught my attention. On the other hand, if we came from more compatible concepts of how a relationship "should" work, we probably wouldn't be on shaky ground. to "dodge the usual ending?" What usual ending? The one to which you alluded above.
Author Lonely Lover Posted July 15, 2012 Author Posted July 15, 2012 I'm starting the think I won't understand your position, SOG, but I'd like to try once more, since you've bothered to reply twice now and I came on here to get opinions. You think it's my fault my relationship isn't doing well, why do you say that? Because I didn't chase off a woman during our first interaction? Or because I wanted to talk to my boyfriend about the situation? I also think it's strange you assume I'm lying about something, particularly my level of anger/stress/"temperature" about this woman. You think I've been harping on this woman for the last several months? I suppose there's no way to disprove that, but that simply isn't the case. Moreover, I was calm when I asked him about it, which is why his angry reaction surprised me such that I turned to others for their opinion. For anyone else interested, when the dog park woman said she had a talk with my bf, it was at soccer practice. They just bumped into each other, nothing planned. I don't think I made that clear.
mortensorchid Posted July 15, 2012 Posted July 15, 2012 He really should not have done that, go to get coffee with this woman. He should have told her right away that he had a gf. He opened the door and is now acting all innocent like "oh it's not my fault". I'd reconsider this if I were you, he might act all innocent on another thing or two.
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