Author USMCHokie Posted July 11, 2012 Author Posted July 11, 2012 Matter of fact, I think this whole thread relies on the definition of extroversion. Psychologically defined, it's a continuum, generally based on what one is concerned with (others or inner life) and how one 'recharges' (with others or alone), but people often instead use it to describe whether one is socially adept or not. Many introverts can be socially adept. I think we have some on LS! I think that in a discussion of dating and social interaction., the common definition of social extroversion is more relevant than clinical extroversion. When you ask a common person in the street what it means to be an extrovert, you'd probably get a different answer from a psychologist...
zengirl Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 I meant act it. I did and it really works. It may look a bit fake at first but if you keep at it, you can get really good. It's especially effective in new social settings, where people haven't already built up a perception of you being shy and quiet. Again extroversion and social adeptness are highly correlated in my opinion. Core confidence will make you happier but it's not easily recognized by others. Point taken. What I really meant to say is "act outgoing". Yes, acting outgoing will help develop social adeptness (though it's hardly the ONLY way), so I am not surprised you saw results. The thing is: Introverts can be naturally outgoing, especially in some circumstances and occasions, and extroverts can lack the trait, but I agree there is some correlation with extroversion and being outgoing, as well as the development of social adeptness. Mostly because extroverts develop those traits earlier, just out of operating in the way they want to normally act. They have to learn other things that introverts learn naturally. (And, of course, no one is pure E or I; it's a spectrum). No, it's not everything...but it's something a lot of folks ignore or feel "doesn't matter"...I think it's a product of the self esteem era...they want to feel superior to external influence, so they tell themselves they can transcend social perception. For some, that isn't an issue since society will perceive them positively regardless of their attitude...e.g., they are good looking, etc. Yeah, I think that's definitely projection. I do think that people who haven't experienced true internal calm and confidence and the happiness of self-love have no way of imagining or understanding it, though, so I can't blame you. At any rate, it's not people "seeing" your confidence that helps you. It's having the confidence and the way that having a positive self-concept, confidence, and no fear of rejection causes you to act. We act differently based on our own levels of confidence and self-concept. Could you fake it? Eh, maybe briefly, but most of the things people do and say regularly stem from what they think and most of the things they think stems from what they believe and their self confidence. You could make yourself breathe at a different rhythm too, for a time, but you can't change your subconscious behavior patterns anymore than you can really change your breath patterns long-term. That's why confidence matters. Not because other people can see the actual confidence (though a lack of confidence does sometimes manifest in ways people can see, normally discomfort). 2
ThaWholigan Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Well of course, each person should find a way to handle social perception. so as to not become embittered by it. However, common advice here often dictates that one should transcend, or rise above, social perception. For example, if SD says that short men have a certain negative social perception, he simply has to transcend that perception...that is, "rise above" it and practically ignore that it exists. That's what I mean by transcending in this case. Short men don't have that much of a negative social perception, SD exacerbates and exaggerates it to the point of being able to give migraines to an aspirin tablet. So in a sense, he has to rise above his OWN perception rather than a social perception.
zengirl Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 I think that in a discussion of dating and social interaction., the common definition of social extroversion is more relevant than clinical extroversion. When you ask a common person in the street what it means to be an extrovert, you'd probably get a different answer from a psychologist... Then we disagree, because I think extroversion is a purely psychological term with a colloquial that is very similar to that term. At any rate, everyone I know would define it by that definition, even those not in psychology who don't understand the continuum. Generally people know the Briggs-Meyer test, that everyone's taken in school or online at some point pretty much, and base it on that dynamic.
Star Gazer Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 For sure, they are not the same. But in a social setting, people often mistake talkativeness and loudness as confidence. No, I think people who LACK confidence mistake talkativeness and loudness as confidence. People who have it know it when they see it (and can spot a fake too). 2
Author USMCHokie Posted July 11, 2012 Author Posted July 11, 2012 Then we disagree, because I think extroversion is a purely psychological term with a colloquial that is very similar to that term. At any rate, everyone I know would define it by that definition, even those not in psychology who don't understand the continuum. Generally people know the Briggs-Meyer test, that everyone's taken in school or online at some point pretty much, and base it on that dynamic. Well, I went and checked dictionary.com for the word extrovert: 1. An outgoing, gregarious person. 2. In psychology, a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment. 1
Eternal Sunshine Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Well, I went and checked dictionary.com for the word extrovert: 1. An outgoing, gregarious person. 2. In psychology, a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment. And lay people are not going to care about psychological definition.
zengirl Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Well, I went and checked dictionary.com for the word extrovert: 1. An outgoing, gregarious person. 2. In psychology, a person concerned primarily with the physical and social environment. Interesting. I do see that too. Curiously, introvert has no colloquial definition, if you look it up, though and your original post cited both types, thus I thought we were discussing the duality of extroversion/introversion.
ThaWholigan Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Then we disagree, because I think extroversion is a purely psychological term with a colloquial that is very similar to that term. At any rate, everyone I know would define it by that definition, even those not in psychology who don't understand the continuum. Generally people know the Briggs-Meyer test, that everyone's taken in school or online at some point pretty much, and base it on that dynamic. Interestingly, I came up as ENFP . I thought it would have been I. I think that would make me an extrovert!
zengirl Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Interestingly, I came up as ENFP . I thought it would have been I. I think that would make me an extrovert! That does not surprise me for a variety of reasons. For one: Many ASD kids are actually extroverts, though most would be seen as introverts by outsiders because they generally have trouble developing social adeptness. That does not mean they lack the motivation to do so. For another: You care a lot about other people. That one is generally quiet does not mean they are not extroverted to some degree. Additionally, as I say, it's a spectrum and we tend to 'move along' it, really. 1
Star Gazer Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 And lay people are not going to care about psychological definition. For crying out loud, does it matter how the definition is viewed by the public? THIS THREAD is about "acting like an extrovert" in order to be more successful in dating. By HIS definition, he seems to mean "outgoing." By THAT definition, he will have success with people who are attracted to outgoing people...at least at first. When they find out it's all smoke and mirrors, they'll bail.
Eternal Sunshine Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 By THAT definition, he will have success with people who are attracted to outgoing people...at least at first. When they find out it's all smoke and mirrors, they'll bail. Yes, but majority of people are attracted to outgoing people. That's the problem.
zengirl Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 For crying out loud, does it matter how the definition is viewed by the public? THIS THREAD is about "acting like an extrovert" in order to be more successful in dating. By HIS definition, he seems to mean "outgoing." By THAT definition, he will have success with people who are attracted to outgoing people...at least at first. When they find out it's all smoke and mirrors, they'll bail. I don't think a majority of people are attracted to outgoing behavior and I agree with you, it's more a compatibility issue. Though women who are outgoing are going to be slightly easier to approach and men who are outgoing will be slightly more motivated to approach. At any rate, outgoing isn't something you 'are' per se, but behaviors people generally adapt or don't in various situations. People with a higher incentive to adapt that behavior are likely to employ it more effectively. If we mean outgoing, I would say that inasmuch as it helps develop social adeptness and helps you meet new people, yes, being outgoing (at least somewhat) and generally being gregarious would be helpful in dating. But I don't think it's really linked to the reasons confidence is helpful. I also don't think going to the highest echelon of outgoing gets you much farther than the simple middle ground of being comfortable talking to people (a basic skill). Social skills are absolutely crucial to dating, though, much more so than confidence. Unlike confidence, no one wants to admit when they're a grown person with crap social skills though because we think of them as only things children need to develop so it's not mentioned nearly enough. Confidence can potentially help with social skills, but it's hardly necessary, and someone can be confident with **** social skills (they probably aren't confident in their social ability, but they may simply place low value on that) in some circumstances. 1
ThaWholigan Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Yes, but majority of people are attracted to outgoing people. That's the problem. Are they?
Author USMCHokie Posted July 11, 2012 Author Posted July 11, 2012 Yes, but majority of people are attracted to outgoing people. That's the problem. I wouldn't necessarily conclude that it's attraction to outgoing people, but exposure to outgoing people. They just tend to be seen more, because inherently they place themselves in more social situations than the more reserved individuals. Who do you notice most when you're out? The extroverts. And the good looking folks.
Eternal Sunshine Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 I wouldn't necessarily conclude that it's attraction to outgoing people, but exposure to outgoing people. They just tend to be seen more, because inherently they place themselves in more social situations than the more reserved individuals. Who do you notice most when you're out? The extroverts. And the good looking folks. Still the conclusion is the same. Outgoing people will have more options thus it helps if you act outgoing.
zengirl Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 I wouldn't necessarily conclude that it's attraction to outgoing people, but exposure to outgoing people. They just tend to be seen more, because inherently they place themselves in more social situations than the more reserved individuals. Who do you notice most when you're out? The extroverts. And the good looking folks. Sure, outgoing people have more exposure because they interact with more people (not because people prefer them or even really 'notice' them more, IMO), which helps with dating success. It's only one component and I'd hardly say not being outgoing is going to cripple someone, unless they're pathologically shy and have other social skill issues. But here's my great confusion . . . what does that have to do with confidence?
Author USMCHokie Posted July 11, 2012 Author Posted July 11, 2012 Still the conclusion is the same. Outgoing people will have more options thus it helps if you act outgoing. I agree, from a numbers perspective. For example, if you notice 8 outgoing people and 2 who are not, out of 10 people, all else being equal, you will likely be attracted to an outgoing person.
Author USMCHokie Posted July 11, 2012 Author Posted July 11, 2012 But here's my great confusion . . . what does that have to do with confidence? Does the commonly given advice of "be more confident" really equate to being more outgoing? Is the confidence line of advice really just a social fallacy?
zengirl Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 Does the commonly given advice of "be more confident" really equate to being more outgoing? Is the confidence line of advice really just a social fallacy? No, I think the two are different suggestions. There are loads of people who can already be/act outgoing but can't be confident or have a better self-concept. Some here, too. 1
snug.bunny Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 My vision of confidence, involves humbleness and the ability to be open-minded, without crossing personal boundaries that will take away from your overall well-being. It's a very delicate balance. How that relates to navigating in the dating world? People are rejected. Rejection hurts. Refer to above... I don't think it's just with dating though. I think it's with everything... Every interaction and instance. Kind of like a circle. It includes self awareness through personal action. In any event, I don't think you can quantify all extroverts as truly confident and all introverts as truly not confident. Humans are complex. Extroverts find it challenging to understanding Introverts especially. Top ten myths about introverts / Jerry Brito Does that mean that introverts have no place in dating, or a very limited place? Should introverts be encouraged to act contrary to their nature and become extroverts? Whose to say? I suppose they'll have to figure that one out for himself/herself. I believe I am an introvert by nature, IF, I had to pick one/determine based on looking at my personality, childhood, etc. I prefer my close friends as opposed to having several acquaintances. I like to recharge my batteries within my own space. Interestingly enough, my sister was not coddled as a child and she has an A type personality. I on the other hand, was overly coddled. There are certain situations, where I am "ballsy", other times not. Sometimes it's because I just don't care. Other times because I don't have the energy to want to pursue it. If I perceive something being done with with ill intent, I'll turn into an extrovert. But I don't care what anyone says, Introverts are way cooler.
Eternal Sunshine Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 What does it mean "be confident" zengirl? How is that advice helpful to anyone?
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 You will you two love birds just go get god damn married and get off the damn LS boards!!!! ::stares and grumbles at ES and Hokie::
zengirl Posted July 11, 2012 Posted July 11, 2012 What does it mean "be confident" zengirl? How is that advice helpful to anyone? As TW says, the advice, "Just be confident" in a vacuum, with no instruction, is kind of silly. That doesn't mean developing confidence isn't important, but that it's not a "Just be" thing. More often, on here, the issue when confidence comes up isn't how outgoing someone is or isn't but how they are able to cope with rejection or not, which is why Pyro's definition of confidence was great. I would say the first thing most 'not confident' people need to work on, with dating, is dealing with rejection, potential and actual, real and perceived, in a positive manner and not fearing it or letting it threaten their own self-worth or self-concept. 2
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