Stoneman70 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 As time goes on, I have read through many posts here and looked at my own situation. In all honesty, the reason why many MM or MW don't leave their marriage is not because of love...its because of fear of the unknown. For the few that do actually leave, I can't imagine what they went through. It is not easy to just walk away from ones marriage even if the love has faded. It's not. When I read responses such as "he would leave if he really loved you" it makes me sick. I really love S, but since we were both married, i did not see what I couls really do. It's not as easy as ok I love her or him so ill just tear up my home. Believe me, I thought about it, but it was too hard. I just wish more women and men knew this...the love may be as strong as any, but the situation to hard to deal with. Leaving and not divorcing does not mean they didnt love you. 7
MissBee Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 My honest response is: who cares how strong the love is, if it doesn't effect change and produces a desired result? That's how I feel. I suppose for some it is a consolation that the person loved them...and I suppose that is better than if you felt they fabricated their feelings. However, lamenting over if the love was real or not is pointless IMO, if the choice was against that or if they chose fear. They chose something else that had a stronger pull...that's that. But thanks that you loved me though....it was appreciated lol. Love without the right circumstances, without bravery, without a willingness to risk, without actions, without truth etc is just a feeling you feel in your heart. If I love someone from far away and never do anything to show it...how exactly does my love make a difference to them? It doesn't. But if for some, knowing some person loves them who will never exercise the courage, risk, etc to be with them or to show it in its fullness, is a comforting thought...then hey. But that thought alone doesn't really add to my life. So I thank my AP if he loves me secretly, in his heart, if he's pining away and writing love letters he never sends, and if he will think about me until he dies while with his woman....but while I'm here, living my life, that love doesn't profit me and the love alone doesn't translate to a lived experience. 13
FightClub Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 MissBee, Wow. That response was spot on exactly how I feel these days in regards to exAP loved me or not, the end result is the same, we're here and doing our own thing regardless. Stoneman, take into consideration the above, it really reflects the reality we see when we're away from the emotions long enough to really see without blinders. -FC 3
woinlove Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 As time goes on, I have read through many posts here and looked at my own situation. In all honesty, the reason why many MM or MW don't leave their marriage is not because of love...its because of fear of the unknown. For the few that do actually leave, I can't imagine what they went through. It is not easy to just walk away from ones marriage even if the love has faded. It's not. When I read responses such as "he would leave if he really loved you" it makes me sick. I really love S, but since we were both married, i did not see what I couls really do. It's not as easy as ok I love her or him so ill just tear up my home. Believe me, I thought about it, but it was too hard. I just wish more women and men knew this...the love may be as strong as any, but the situation to hard to deal with. Leaving and not divorcing does not mean they didnt love you. So then what does love mean to you? Is it just a feeling that lives inside your head and you talk about? In that case, would it matter to anyone whether you loved them or not? If any man wrote what you wrote above about me, professing his love in that way, I would say "who cares?". My H and I love each other and we demonstrate this each and every day. It affects all facets of our lives. Our lives would be forever changed if we did not share the love we do share for each other. That is a love to care about. The love you write about, I just don't see the point of it. Could you explain why it matters to you and why S should care one way or another about it?
Author Stoneman70 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Posted July 10, 2012 I see your point.... I think ad an OW/OM its very easy to say,if you really love me, you would do anything to be woth me... If you are married....well imo its different. If you are both married to other people its very very hard. Love is the least of your problems. If I was single and it was only s who was married...then I could say yes she should have left and all but im married too and I see how hard it was for her. I understand your stance, but I think as a single ow or OM its easy to expect one to dissolve a marriage easily. I felt that way for a bit, but the thought of breaking up her marriage for my needs stopped me.
Author Stoneman70 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Posted July 10, 2012 I loved her so much I left when she told me that she wasnt leaving her h. I loved her so much to not keep interfering. She wanted to stay married. There was nothing i could do.
stillwater Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 My honest response is: who cares how strong the love is, if it doesn't effect change and produces a desired result? That's how I feel. I suppose for some it is a consolation that the person loved them...and I suppose that is better than if you felt they fabricated their feelings. However, lamenting over if the love was real or not is pointless IMO, if the choice was against that or if they chose fear. They chose something else that had a stronger pull...that's that. But thanks that you loved me though....it was appreciated lol. Love without the right circumstances, without bravery, without a willingness to risk, without actions, without truth etc is just a feeling you feel in your heart. If I love someone from far away and never do anything to show it...how exactly does my love make a difference to them? It doesn't. But if for some, knowing some person loves them who will never exercise the courage, risk, etc to be with them or to show it in its fullness, is a comforting thought...then hey. But that thought alone doesn't really add to my life. So I thank my AP if he loves me secretly, in his heart, if he's pining away and writing love letters he never sends, and if he will think about me until he dies while with his woman....but while I'm here, living my life, that love doesn't profit me and the love alone doesn't translate to a lived experience. I think I love you. Seriously though, I agree with East, that was spot-on. To the OP: Let me just add a couple things, because your post kind of riled me up. First, if your love can't overcome your fear, well then excuse me if I'm not exactly trembling at the knees with excitement. Because really, someone who is that terrified of life is not attractive to me at all. Either that or your love isn't nearly as strong as you think it is. If I recall your situation correctly, you had no kids and you weren't even living in the same country as your wife at the time, and weren't in love with her, correct? So what exactly was so hard?? xMW said this all the time, "it's too hard to leave". Whatever. Writing an email telling me how much she loves me, then going to share a bed with her husband? I think some people just have a funny definition of love. I'm not sure I quite believe in "all you need is love", but man the lengths I would go to for the few people I've truly loved in my life... 2
Author Stoneman70 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Posted July 10, 2012 S was married. No matter how string my love..she wasn't leaving her husband. She made that clear. Should I have demanded she leave him? Is that really love to you? Sometimes when you know that their is nothing you can really do,you have to do what is best for everyone, not just what you want. I left the country to distance myself knowing how hard it was to live there when I couldn't have her. Nc would never work if I stayed. My marriage is an arranged one and it wasn't easy to just leave. I
Author Stoneman70 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Posted July 10, 2012 Im sorry. I know I'm a coward. I guess in my own situation, its different... I also wonder the different thoughts on those where only one was married versus two. I just think its such a different dynamic. I don't mean to insult anyone. I'm just processing my thoughts ...
stillwater Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 Im sorry. I know I'm a coward. I guess in my own situation, its different... I also wonder the different thoughts on those where only one was married versus two. I just think its such a different dynamic. Your situation is likely not much different from what a lot of folks here have been through. I wasn't married, but I had a long-term gf of close to a decade, owned a house together, etc. I left. xMW did not. Was it hard? Hell yeah. Especially after I realized xMW was never going to leave, and I was standing there with my dick in the wind. I could have curled up in a fetal position and whined about how hard it is, but I manned up, went out and met new people, tried new things, kept busy, and just generally lived life to the fullest. 3
wayward 99 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) I can tell you my reasons why it has taken me so long to leave an unhappy marriage. In my case, OM was (well, still is) single. 1. my children. I have been terrified of the impact of divorce on them in all aspects of their lives. For a long time I still have been hanging onto the idea that it is probably better for them to grow up in an intact home and for H and I to hold it together as best as we can until they are grown (they are 13, 11, 8). 2. I don't want to miss my kids. In mediation, we have discussed the fact that we will have 50/50 custody. That is saying goodbye to half of my children's childhood. As much as H infuriates me, I still care about him enough to feel badly about him losing 50% as well. 3. financial entanglement. It is no easy task, at least for us since we contribute jointly to expenses to take one household and sustain two. 4. family- my parents have literally had a violent reaction towards the idea of me divorcing. My mother said (twice) that she would rather I die than divorce 5. friends- friends have really tried hard to want us to stay married, encourage us in MC, IC, etc. It is hard to disappoint them. As our mediator said, it is one thing to want your spouse out of your life, but it comes with throwing out the old life you had as well, some of which you really want to hang onto (your home, your neighbors, your image, etc.) The stability and security of a family, your home, etc. are hard to let go of even though now I recognize that as a MW I ate cake for too long in a cowardly manner to the detriment of many. Edited July 10, 2012 by wayward 99 am a MW not a MM, lol
Author Stoneman70 Posted July 10, 2012 Author Posted July 10, 2012 Yes, I did ask her to leave,I told her he wasn't good enough, that she should divorce him... She told me in march, I'm not leaving my husband and i love him. I knew at that point for my own sanity, I had to leave if I was to ever get over her.
irin Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 actually because 99% of the time they never start an affair with intend of ending their marriage, other wise they'd get separated ASAP, and divorce follows. 7
onthefence210 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 S was married. No matter how string my love..she wasn't leaving her husband. She made that clear. Should I have demanded she leave him? Is that really love to you? Sometimes when you know that their is nothing you can really do,you have to do what is best for everyone, not just what you want. I left the country to distance myself knowing how hard it was to live there when I couldn't have her. Nc would never work if I stayed. My marriage is an arranged one and it wasn't easy to just leave. I Stone man...I don't think ur questioning your love for her but her love for you??? She wasn't going to leave her marriage for you. She could say she loved you more then infinity but love is just a word when there is no devotion, no commitment. It's shown not just felt. My xmm and I never planned a life in our heads, he too was very honest about staying with his wife. I never had any expectations from him and he of I. We talked about what we dreamed about and honestly I could still to this day see myself with him, yet I was somewhat of a realist when it came to our relationship. I knew why we needed eachother and when we could show our love we did, it was simple and easy. He told me all the time that he loved me more then he had loved anyone including the love he had had for his wife. When xmm and I said goodbye his last words to me were..."this is not what I want". It may not have been what he wanted but he didn't need me. Nor do I need him. What he needed was to stay with his wife, and his kids. He needed to keep up the facade of his life because of his own opinions on putting his kids thru divorce. I needed to divorce not having xmm as a crutch. I needed to learn about myself and how I became an xmw. I can say, that I loved my xmm so much so that I do pray for him every night. Not to come back to me because I miss him, but because I truly believe he is an amazing person who isn't perfect. I pray for his happiness whether he finds that with his wife or not. But I have let go of loving him. Let go of him loving me. I think there comes a time when u have to love yourself more. There has to come a time when you come to the truth where u take into consideration that you are unfaithful to ur spouse. When do u start with honesty with her, and give her a choice to be in ur M? Stop wasting ur time and energy on something that you obviously know is not going to happen. S didn't love you enough, and in a way you can be thankful. Thank God that he is giving you this time for some self reflection. Use your time wisely. Grieve the loss but don't get stuck in it. Stop asking questions that you honestly will not hear what you want to hear, and that is Love is never enough. It takes so much more then the word we long to hear. It's the actions behind those words that make the word have value. I hope you find some peace in all of this. But please do your wife a favor and be honest with her. If you stay because of fear of the unknown it is your problem. You might want to focus on that, instead of trying to solve something that really has no right answers. Affairs are bad. They are deceitful. They hurt everyone involved even people like us. But forgiveness is a wonderful thing, even if it isn't coming from the WS and Divorce is the end result. We need to understand that we too can change, that we aren't bad people, and that we too are human. Get into IC Stoneman...I think you will learn how to see your affair as the "unreality" that it truly was, no matter how real you felt. You can still love someone even with acceptance. You just have to learn to cope with the reality of the situation.
Quiet Storm Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) I think men and women often view love differently, as well. Women are more likely to feel that love should prompt action. It seems that many women assume that because a man is having an affair, he is done with the marriage. Many women don't love simply for the sake of loving, we want to be with the object of our love. In an affair, when you tell a woman that you love her, she thinks that means you are choosing to be with her. For women love=being together. We are often driven by our emotions, so staying with someone you don't love, when you have the option of being with someone you do love, makes no sense and would not be a viable option. Romantic love is very important to us. Married women may not expect as much change, but she will expect emotional commitment. Men seem to have a more detached sense of romantic love. They are more likely to appreciate love simply as it is, without expectations or promises. Love doesn't always prompt them to act or make change in their life, because it does not have as much power in their lives. They don't assign as much importance to it. It is not a necessity. They enjoy love, they want love, but they are content with small increments of "love" at scheduled times. Kind of like loving a cheeseburger or the beach. They enjoy it while it lasts, but don't feel the need to turn it into something official or permanent. They can often accept that it has an expiration date. You love her, but you didn't back that love up with action. Your love for her, while it is nice to acknowledge, did not prompt you to make changes in your life. You were content with just loving, but many women are not. Think about it like this. Imagine that at 18 you got a casual fling pregnant. You were afraid to take responsibility and ran, avoiding contact with the woman. Over the years, you thought often about the child, you loved the child, you imagined what she/he looked like, you had a place in your heart for this child, you bought gifts for the child, thought about places you'd love to take the child. Eventually, you decide to find the child after they'd grown up. You tell her "I've thought about you for years. I love you so much". Do you think she will feel loved by you? Do you think your loving from a distance had any impact on her? Do you think that knowing that you loved her will make her feel any less abandoned? Do you think the knowledge that you loved her, but still chose to ignore her, is comforting? It's not. Saying that you love a woman, while committing to a different woman, is not comforting. It's just proof that your love for her is not that important to you. She may have a place in your heart and your mind, but she wants a place in your real life. Edited July 10, 2012 by Quiet Storm 4
whichwayisup Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 As time goes on, I have read through many posts here and looked at my own situation. In all honesty, the reason why many MM or MW don't leave their marriage is not because of love...its because of fear of the unknown. For the few that do actually leave, I can't imagine what they went through. It is not easy to just walk away from ones marriage even if the love has faded. It's not. When I read responses such as "he would leave if he really loved you" it makes me sick. I really love S, but since we were both married, i did not see what I couls really do. It's not as easy as ok I love her or him so ill just tear up my home. Believe me, I thought about it, but it was too hard. I just wish more women and men knew this...the love may be as strong as any, but the situation to hard to deal with. Leaving and not divorcing does not mean they didnt love you. The reason why so many don't just up and leave, divorce and be with their AP is because deep down they know they haven't given their marriage a chance to be fixed, to reconnect with the (B)S..Without the AP in the wings waiting. And yes, to leave all that you know for someone you don't know as well, it is fear of the unknown.. And many won't take that chance, end up losing both BS and AP as they will be alone.
Silly_Girl Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 I posted recently about how, in my case, he loved me SO HARD. He was ill when we broke up, he had many symptoms of depression and avoided all friends and avoided his best friend of all... his favourite hobby. I also said that it was MY perception that he didn't love me 'enough'. But whether you choose to believe it or not, he really, really loved me yet didn't leave. I couldn't stay with him if he stayed married, and when the crunch came, he left. But he didn't love me more that day than the day previous. He just decided he couldn't handle a life without me, and the unknown was worth taking a risk. The love-o-meter didn't shoot up that day, but many factors (facing the wrath of his wife, having somewhere to live, admitting to his very religious and traditional parents) suddenly became surmountable in his personal, inner cost/benefit analysis. I really, REALLY get the sentiments of those who say 'if he loved you'. Jeez, I used that line to him many times myself, but it was bigger than that. It was an ENORMOUS mental and emotional transition and it requires more than love in such a situation.
woinlove Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 S was married. No matter how string my love..she wasn't leaving her husband. She made that clear. Should I have demanded she leave him? Is that really love to you? Sometimes when you know that their is nothing you can really do,you have to do what is best for everyone, not just what you want. I left the country to distance myself knowing how hard it was to live there when I couldn't have her. Nc would never work if I stayed. My marriage is an arranged one and it wasn't easy to just leave. I Stoneman, just try to imagine for a moment that you did not and had not loved S. What would you have done differently in that case? I assume you still would not leave your M, right? Would you have tried to demand she leave hers if you did not love her? If so, why would you do that? If not, is there something you would have done differently?
East7 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 As time goes on, I have read through many posts here and looked at my own situation. In all honesty, the reason why many MM or MW don't leave their marriage is not because of love...its because of fear of the unknown. I just wish more women and men knew this...the love may be as strong as any, but the situation to hard to deal with. Leaving and not divorcing does not mean they didnt love you. hmmm..What about growing a spine? What about living with honesty and owning one's choices instead of living with lies and cowardice ? If you aren't able to leave a marriage, suck it up and don't start anything with anyone in first place.
sad puppy Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 There are so many well written and heartfelt, honest feelings here. You all are amazing. Wishing for peace for us all.
East7 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 I think I love you. Missbee, I think I love you too.. Too many pretenders over here. Stillwater is closer than I though. Seriously though, I agree with East, that was spot-on. I think you confused me with Fightclub xMW said this all the time, "it's too hard to leave". Whatever. Writing an email telling me how much she loves me, then going to share a bed with her husband? I think some people just have a funny definition of love. I'm not sure I quite believe in "all you need is love", but man the lengths I would go to for the few people I've truly loved in my life... That's ALL my xMW too. She still sends me "love e-mails" 2 years after the end of the A, but at the night she goes at bed with her husband. How sick.. What kind of love is that? 1
MissBee Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 I think men and women often view love differently, as well. Women are more likely to feel that love should prompt action. It seems that many women assume that because a man is having an affair, he is done with the marriage. Many women don't love simply for the sake of loving, we want to be with the object of our love. In an affair, when you tell a woman that you love her, she thinks that means you are choosing to be with her. For women love=being together. We are often driven by our emotions, so staying with someone you don't love, when you have the option of being with someone you do love, makes no sense and would not be a viable option. Romantic love is very important to us. Married women may not expect as much change, but she will expect emotional commitment. Men seem to have a more detached sense of romantic love. They are more likely to appreciate love simply as it is, without expectations or promises. Love doesn't always prompt them to act or make change in their life, because it does not have as much power in their lives. They don't assign as much importance to it. It is not a necessity. They enjoy love, they want love, but they are content with small increments of "love" at scheduled times. Kind of like loving a cheeseburger or the beach. They enjoy it while it lasts, but don't feel the need to turn it into something official or permanent. They can often accept that it has an expiration date. You love her, but you didn't back that love up with action. Your love for her, while it is nice to acknowledge, did not prompt you to make changes in your life. You were content with just loving, but many women are not. Think about it like this. Imagine that at 18 you got a casual fling pregnant. You were afraid to take responsibility and ran, avoiding contact with the woman. Over the years, you thought often about the child, you loved the child, you imagined what she/he looked like, you had a place in your heart for this child, you bought gifts for the child, thought about places you'd love to take the child. Eventually, you decide to find the child after they'd grown up. You tell her "I've thought about you for years. I love you so much". Do you think she will feel loved by you? Do you think your loving from a distance had any impact on her? Do you think that knowing that you loved her will make her feel any less abandoned? Do you think the knowledge that you loved her, but still chose to ignore her, is comforting? It's not. Saying that you love a woman, while committing to a different woman, is not comforting. It's just proof that your love for her is not that important to you. She may have a place in your heart and your mind, but she wants a place in your real life. Well said QS!
East7 Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 My honest response is: who cares how strong the love is, if it doesn't effect change and produces a desired result? . So then what does love mean to you? Is it just a feeling that lives inside your head and you talk about? In that case, would it matter to anyone whether you loved them or not? If any man wrote what you wrote above about me, professing his love in that way, I would say "who cares?". Exactly my thoughts too : Who cares how much do you love someone if you do nothing to make it REAL. That is because the MPs are all focused to their own feelings, not those of the persons they are hurting.
MissBee Posted July 10, 2012 Posted July 10, 2012 (edited) Exactly my thoughts too : Who cares how much do you love someone if you do nothing to make it REAL. That is because the MPs are all focused to their own feelings, not those of the persons they are hurting. I think that is the fantasy nature of a lot of As. A lot of people get upset when the word fantasy is used, as I suppose they imagine it means everything is a script and an act and the feelings aren't real. However, that's not what it means to me. The feelings may be real, but the fantasy is that while there are feelings, they do not translate into a changed reality that someone can hold on to. The feelings can exist and be an intense free for all in the quiet of the lovers' minds or while together...but as soon as one gets excited to now solidify these feelings into concrete plans...it's like cold water outs the embers, because all of a sudden now there is hesitation, pulling back and no realization of all the wonderful feelings. The A is enjoyable and you may laugh, cry, hurt and love....but no one lives on feelings alone. Fantasies feel good...that's why people daydream. Daydreaming feels good. It induces the same feelings as if one were really doing what one is daydreaming of, yet it's in your head and the feelings don't produce real world change. Likewise, As feel good, it's nice to talk about love, to share, to discuss a future etc. but that's not really changing the outside reality and eventually most get frustrated with this if all the fond feelings and talk don't produce certain actions. It's similar to extended long distance relationships, conducted mainly through the computer, they too frustrating, as while you may feel strongly, if the two never plan to take it beyond the computer screen and telephone...then what does it matter? After a while that too becomes limiting and starts to seem more and more based in fantasy than reality. Perhaps it is hardwired in us to want to mate and that requires being with the person, making a life, seeing them, having them by your side etc. and we're not meant to just live on the knowledge alone that they have strong feelings for us. Edited July 11, 2012 by MissBee
Recommended Posts