USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 External validation to me, when you have confidence, is just a confirmation of what you believe to be true. And where do you get these beliefs of truth? Were you born with all of these beliefs? Some people on this forum seem to be under this idea that if they just catch one break; if one attractive member of the opposite sex gives them a compliment or even signs of interest, they'll be set. Problems will be gone. They will have confidence and their dating life will be a breeze. Some might need only one break. Some might need ten. That just depends on the individual. If a girl rejects me, it doesn't crush my world. More often than not, I feel bad for her, or laugh at her inability to spot a top notch guy. That's because I'm confident in who I am, regardless if she's into me or not. I know not every girl I meet will share her sentiments and I will find someone who is into me. Sure, because you have received external validation in ways other than from those women who rejected you. Did you receive a college education? That piece of paper is external validation of your ability to make it through college. Do you have a well-paying job? Employment is external validation that you are capable and trusted to perform a job. Are your parents proud of the person you have become? More external validation. And combine this with how society places worth on an individual's characteristics. Just because you a woman rejects you, you have enough measures of prior success in other areas to show that you're a "top notch guy." It's these areas where external validation has told you that you should be desirable.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 The Dunning-Kruger effect shows that there's almost no correlation between perceived ability and actual ability. The main point of the study: ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. If you're incompetent and unintelligent, you're not smart enough to realize that you're incompetent. This was shown for all sorts of skills such as reading comprehension, driving a car, playing chess or tennis. The most competent people tend to underestimate their abilities. Absolutely, and it goes to show the inherent flaw of the "just be confident" train of thought. Intelligence/competence cannot be created nor assessed internally; it MUST be driven from external forces. You cannot know you're doing something right unless you either (1) know how to do it, or (2) receive feedback from someone that you're doing it right. So telling someone to perceive that they have an ability without allowing them external feedback does not necessarily give that that ability. Unless they get lucky and stumble upon the right way to do it...
Pirouette Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 The Dunning-Kruger effect shows that there's almost no correlation between perceived ability and actual ability. The main point of the study: ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. If you're incompetent and unintelligent, you're not smart enough to realize that you're incompetent. This was shown for all sorts of skills such as reading comprehension, driving a car, playing chess or tennis. The most competent people tend to underestimate their abilities. Warren Buffett made the point: there's always a sucker at a poker table, if you don't know who it is, it's probably you. But all too often, people can't realize this. Ask an average guy what time is it; he'll look at his watch and confidently give you an answer. Ask an asto physicist what time is it, and he'll give you a long speech about how he doesn't really understand the question. "The fool thinks himself to be wise. The wise man knows himself to be a fool." I think when you reach that upper echelon of thinking and achieving, you are aware of moving past the level of your peers, but you just begin to perceive of the levels that exist beyond your own abilities.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 "The fool thinks himself to be wise. The wise man knows himself to be a fool." I think when you reach that upper echelon of thinking and achieving, you are aware of moving past the level of your peers, but you just begin to perceive of the levels that exist beyond your own abilities. Only to start the process over again... And a related question for those who knock the value and pervasiveness of external validation in our lives, why is it so encouraged for one to have a mentor...?
MrCastle Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 And where do you get these beliefs of truth? Were you born with all of these beliefs?[/Quote] I was born believing in myself and my abilities. I didn't wait for someone to call me attractive. I told myself I'm attractive, and believed it. If girls turned me down, I didn't think "oh well that settles it, i'm actually unattractive". I just thought "ha, guess i'm not her type. good luck to her". Some might need only one break. Some might need ten. That just depends on the individual.[/Quote] And what if they don't get those breaks? Breaks aren't promised. Are they doomed to virginity and loneliness forever? That's the flaw in being outcome dependent. You can't sit around waiting for someone to give you something you should be building yourself (in this case, confidence). Sure, because you have received external validation in ways other than from those women who rejected you. Did you receive a college education? That piece of paper is external validation of your ability to make it through college. Do you have a well-paying job? Employment is external validation that you are capable and trusted to perform a job. Are your parents proud of the person you have become? More external validation. And combine this with how society places worth on an individual's characteristics. Just because you a woman rejects you, you have enough measures of prior success in other areas to show that you're a "top notch guy." It's these areas where external validation has told you that you should be desirable. Those things are confirmation to what I already know. Example: I say to myself "I'm a smart guy, I know the material on the test". I get an A. I then say "See; I knew I was smart. I knew I had the material understood". It's not--"Oh man, am I smart? Can I pass this test??". Then get an A and say "hey! I got an A on this test so it proves I'm smart!" I believe in myself, and have confidence in myself, when I get external validation, in my head I say to myself "yeah, I know".
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I was born believing in myself and my abilities. I didn't wait for someone to call me attractive. I told myself I'm attractive, and believed it. If girls turned me down, I didn't think "oh well that settles it, i'm actually unattractive". I just thought "ha, guess i'm not her type. good luck to her". Well, unfortunately you will never know if this is actually true, because your mentality now has been shaped by years of experience and interaction with others, which you seem to have taken for granted. If you ever have a kid, lock him in a basement with no human interaction for 20 years...let me know how he turns out...first thing you ask him when he emerges, "do you believe in yourself and your abilities...?" And what if they don't get those breaks? Breaks aren't promised. Are they doomed to virginity and loneliness forever? That's the flaw in being outcome dependent. You can't sit around waiting for someone to give you something you should be building yourself (in this case, confidence). Again, you are simply advocating the use of blind "confidence" as a catalyst for receiving the external validation needed to build the foundation for true confidence. I don't disagree that this is often the best (and sometimes only) way for one to break out of their shell. Those things are confirmation to what I already know. Example: I say to myself "I'm a smart guy, I know the material on the test". I get an A. I then say "See; I knew I was smart. I knew I had the material understood". It's not--"Oh man, am I smart? Can I pass this test??". Then get an A and say "hey! I got an A on this test so it proves I'm smart!" I believe in myself, and have confidence in myself, when I get external validation, in my head I say to myself "yeah, I know". Then why even take the test?
MrCastle Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Well, unfortunately you will never know if this is actually true, because your mentality now has been shaped by years of experience and interaction with others, which you seem to have taken for granted. If you ever have a kid, lock him in a basement with no human interaction for 20 years...let me know how he turns out...first thing you ask him when he emerges, "do you believe in yourself and your abilities...?"[/Quote] That's a pretty extreme example. Let's stick with more relevant, realistic dialogue. Again, you are simply advocating the use of blind "confidence" as a catalyst for receiving the external validation needed to build the foundation for true confidence. I don't disagree that this is often the best (and sometimes only) way for one to break out of their shell.[/Quote] Yeah. Or you can wait for the pretty girl who lives next door who friend zoned you to say you're a catch. Then of course, you will be a catch, because she's pretty and she said it. Then why even take the test? I was talking about school. I don't think I can tell the professor I have enough confidence that i'll ace the test so don't bother handing me the test. To explain myself further -- external validation no doubt gives you a confidence boost, but some people here are looking at it as a means to build their character. Their self esteem is too low that they feel they can't build their confidence alone, they need other people to build it for them. They're just, woe is me, I'm down on my luck, if only one of those mean hot girls would toss me a glance, I would then be able to turn my dating luck around and be a vagina magnet. Shame on you girls, for not giving me the confidence boost needed for me to a vagina king. Not saying this is you personally. But there's a lot of blame going around here. You should never look to people to define your character. Only use them to reinforce the character you believe you are. If enough girls call you unattractive/ugly, that's it? It's written in stone? You're ugly because they said so?
snug.bunny Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 True inner "confidence" comes entirely from external sources of validation. I think you're referring more so to ego. Ultimately, core confidence, derives from within. But I think, it is not solely based on one variable but rather, can be a combination of variables: External Validation Experience Trial and Error Personal Achievements Self Awareness/Knowledge Choices & Beliefs I'm sure there are a few others, possibly other factors like genetics (IE: What individual's biologically feel as "successful" creates positive memories, thus inner confidence). 1
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 That's a pretty extreme example. Let's stick with more relevant, realistic dialogue. Just making the point that you can't possibly know whether you were born with innate confidence or you developed it from your life experiences and interaction with others. I am leaning towards the latter. To explain myself further -- external validation no doubt gives you a confidence boost, but some people here are looking at it as a means to build their character. Their self esteem is too low that they feel they can't build their confidence alone, they need other people to build it for them. They're just, woe is me, I'm down on my luck, if only one of those mean hot girls would toss me a glance, I would then be able to turn my dating luck around and be a vagina magnet. Shame on you girls, for not giving me the confidence boost needed for me to a vagina king. Again, I'm not encouraging inaction and reliance on others to prop you up. I'm only identifying the need for external feedback to develop your self-esteem and confidence. How do you even know what you should be confident in? Society dictates that. Not saying this is you personally. But there's a lot of blame going around here. No worries, I can tell by context the difference between personal "you" and general "you." You should never look to people to define your character. Only use them to reinforce the character you believe you are. You certainly don't want to actively seek definition through others, but you do it without knowing. We are all a product of our environment. In the social context, we are all a product of the people around us. If enough girls call you unattractive/ugly, that's it? It's written in stone? You're ugly because they said so? No, it's not written in stone. But you're still receiving external feedback about your appearance. It's up to you to decide if you want to do anything about it. External validation can also be external invalidation. I lump it together as external feedback; criticism is equally as important and useful, if not moreso, as praise.
Pirouette Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Only to start the process over again... And a related question for those who knock the value and pervasiveness of external validation in our lives, why is it so encouraged for one to have a mentor...? It matches the cyclical nature of life. You're getting into philosophical questions that people have been pondering for thousands of years, ideas of permanences, absolutes, or relativism. What is real? I think therefore I am. To answer your question, because I do believe in the value and pervasiveness of external validation in our lives, mentoring is so encouraged because it can greatly speed up the process of learning for individuals who are open to it.
ThaWholigan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 To be honest, I'm starting to understand Hokie's concept a lot more. I think that we have been slightly misinterpreting what he's saying (although no doubt, I think he enjoys that and words it in such a fashion to illicit such ). External validation/invalidation of any kind does have influence, but not at the expense of the inner. But that there is a synergy, internal and external cannot co-exist without each other. The thesis (internal) and the anti-thesis (external). Indeed, those who rely solely on external forces will be at the whim of everyone else around them. Whereas those who understand those forces and use them to adequately boost their inner-self worth will succeed. I think this is where it's coming from. However, I think that the whole argument about external validation is STILL missing the point: the point that people point to their lack of external validation as an excuse not only to stop trying, but to complain and whine to the high heavens about how terrible their lives are - without doing anything to change it. Venting is understandable, but sometimes it's time to stop bitching and start trying, and continue to try. 1
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I think you're referring more so to ego. No, I'm not... Ultimately, core confidence, derives from within. But I think, it is not solely based on one variable but rather, can be a combination of variables: But all of the variables you listed can be attributed to external forces... External Validation Experience - (unless you live in seclusion, external forces are always at work...) Trial and Error - (how do you know something is an error? More likely than not, someone else informs you...external...) Personal Achievements - (what is defined as an "achievement"? graduating college? that promotion? a new personal best 1-mile time? these are ALL feats that society has deemed achievements...external...) Self Awareness/Knowledge - (knowledge cannot exist wholly internally...and how does one identify things to be self-aware of...? external forces...) Choices & Beliefs - (where does one formulate their belief system? parents, friends, teachers, peers, etc., i.e. other people...external) It's the process by which we take the external feedback that is internal. It's like a car with an engine. You can't go anywhere without fuel. I'm sure there are a few others, possibly other factors like genetics (IE: What individual's biologically feel as "successful" creates positive memories, thus inner confidence). But what you "feel" is successful is identified by external forces.
MrCastle Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Well, unfortunately you will never know if this is actually true, because your mentality now has been shaped by years of experience and interaction with others, which you seem to have taken for granted. If you ever have a kid, lock him in a basement with no human interaction for 20 years...let me know how he turns out...first thing you ask him when he emerges, "do you believe in yourself and your abilities...?" Again, you are simply advocating the use of blind "confidence" as a catalyst for receiving the external validation needed to build the foundation for true confidence. I don't disagree that this is often the best (and sometimes only) way for one to break out of their shell. Then why even take the test? To be honest, I'm starting to understand Hokie's concept a lot more. I think that we have been slightly misinterpreting what he's saying (although no doubt, I think he enjoys that and words it in such a fashion to illicit such ). External validation/invalidation of any kind does have influence, but not at the expense of the inner. But that there is a synergy, internal and external cannot co-exist without each other. The thesis (internal) and the anti-thesis (external). Indeed, those who rely solely on external forces will be at the whim of everyone else around them. Whereas those who understand those forces and use them to adequately boost their inner-self worth will succeed. I think this is where it's coming from. However, I think that the whole argument about external validation is STILL missing the point: the point that people point to their lack of external validation as an excuse not only to stop trying, but to complain and whine to the high heavens about how terrible their lives are - without doing anything to change it. Venting is understandable, but sometimes it's time to stop bitching and start trying, and continue to try. Yeah. We may be having two different discussions. I said in my initial post external validation does give a boost. My argument was that it shouldn't make or break you as a person and dictate who you are. For those that are down on their luck and saying "see! it's not my fault i have no confidence! no one has called me attractive yet! when they do, thats when my luck will change! it's not me, it's their fault! damn you mean picky members of the opposite sex! i just need a pick me up!" You have to have an inner foundation of confidence to start off with
snug.bunny Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 But all of the variables you listed can be attributed to external forces... Well let's see. I have a fear of heights, I parasailed on my own accord, and felt great afterwards and it gave me a boost of true inner confidence. No external "yeah snug.bunny way to go" needed. Now if by external sources, you mean the wind, parachute and the cord that kept me afloat, then sure.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 To answer your question, because I do believe in the value and pervasiveness of external validation in our lives, mentoring is so encouraged because it can greatly speed up the process of learning for individuals who are open to it. And it coincides with something I observe all the time with the military...and something I'm seeing here...where confidence turns to pride...and it creates this very attitude that folks ignore that value and existence of external validation...because they are better than everyone else...their "confidence" shows this... I see it all the time with junior officers and their senior enlisted Marines. You have a young 20-something officer, first week on the job, beaming with "confidence" and thinking he knows it all. He pays no heed to the knowledge and experience of his senior enlisted who have been doing the job for 20 years and should be seen as almost a mentor of that job. The higher ranking junior officer has no need for the external feedback, because he's got "confidence."
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Well let's see. I have a fear of heights, I parasailed on my own accord, and felt great afterwards and it gave me a boost of true inner confidence. No external "yeah snug.bunny way to go" needed. Now if by external sources, you mean the wind, parachute and the cord that kept me afloat, then sure. Yes, I do. You gained trust in your equipment and the laws of physics to keep you alive, all of which you gathered from external feedback. Your example doesn't require another person to provide feedback. However, in the social context, which your above example does not fall into, you do need others as that external force, as a social situation inherently requires other people.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Yeah. We may be having two different discussions. We definitely are. But I knew this from the beginning. I said in my initial post external validation does give a boost. And you're absolutely right. But it's only a "boost" if you already have a foundation of self-worth and "confidence," so to speak. My argument was that it shouldn't make or break you as a person and dictate who you are. You're right, at most, it should only provide minor rudder steers to keep you in the right direction. For those that are down on their luck and saying "see! it's not my fault i have no confidence! no one has called me attractive yet! when they do, thats when my luck will change! it's not me, it's their fault! damn you mean picky members of the opposite sex! i just need a pick me up!" There is a certain truth to it, but I don't agree with the way they go about it. Unfortunately, adults have a considerably higher mental capacity than children to conceive sh*t like this...so that's why you see it...no wonder middle/high schoolers are such a pain in the ass...this is exactly what they do... You have to have an inner foundation of confidence to start off with ...which can only be established through external validation. For many, this happens at an early age, well before adulthood. However, for some, they never come to this realization until later in life...
snug.bunny Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Yes, I do. You gained trust in your equipment and the laws of physics to keep you alive, all of which you gathered from external feedback. Your example doesn't require another person to provide feedback. However, in the social context, which your above example does not fall into, you do need others as that external force, as a social situation inherently requires other people. Well I wasn't exactly sure what you meant by external forces. Believe me you, I had no trust in the equipment or the laws of physics, especially when someone told me shortly before that a person died from the harness snapping. I've also seen countless people Parasail and live. So, if that's what you mean by external forces, then yes I agree. Ultimately though, I "ME" made the CHOICE while weighing both factors. I trusted in myself to say fff it, if I die, then I die (but I secretly hoped that I wouldn't ).
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) So, if that's what you mean by external forces, then yes I agree. Ultimately though, I "ME" made the CHOICE while weighing both factors. I trusted in myself to say fff it, if I die, then I die (but I secretly hoped that I wouldn't ). Yes, the process by which you analyze those external forces is entirely internal. It's much like you see a set of equipment with frayed straps and harnesses and a hole in the parachute versus a set of brand new equipment. You received external feedback through your eyes, processed which you thought would be safer, and made your choice. Blind confidence, as encouraged here, tells you to ignore what you see and pick whichever set, knowing you'll be fine either way. So you pick the old beaten up equipment and live to tell the tale. The external feedback you received from living through that experience and seeing that you did it with sh*tty equipment has given you comfort in knowing that you can do it with any kind of equipment. That's true confidence, and that's something we should all strive for. Now taking it into the social context of dating. Let's say a guy has never received the external validation of girl agreeing to go on a date with him. So he utilizes blind confidence to ask out a girl, with the preconceived belief that she'll say yes. When one finally does, he has experienced external validation, which gives him knowledge, more than just belief, that women will agree to go on dates with him. Knowing is much stronger than believing. That's true confidence. Edited July 7, 2012 by USMCHokie
snug.bunny Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Yes, the process by which you analyze those external forces is entirely internal. It's much like you see a set of equipment with frayed straps and harnesses and a hole in the parachute versus a set of brand new equipment. You received external feedback through your eyes, processed which you thought would be safer, and made your choice. Blind confidence, as encouraged here, tells you to ignore what you see and pick whichever set, knowing you'll be fine either way. So you pick the old beaten up equipment and live to tell the tale. The external feedback you received from living through that experience and seeing that you did it with sh*tty equipment has given you comfort in knowing that you can do it with any kind of equipment. That's true confidence, and that's something we should all strive for. Now taking it into the social context of dating. Let's say a guy has never received the external validation of girl agreeing to go on a date with him. So he utilizes blind confidence to ask out a girl, with the preconceived belief that she'll say yes. When one finally does, he has experienced external validation, which gives him knowledge, more than just belief, that women will agree to go on dates with him. Knowing is much stronger than believing. That's true confidence. I agree with you on many points. But, I just don't agree that "True inner confidence comes entirely from external sources of validation". I still believe it's derived from external AND internal factors. To assign internal to external, you'd have to start at the beginning of time, and who the heck knows when that is/was.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I agree with you on many points. But, I just don't agree that "True inner confidence comes entirely from external sources of validation". I still believe it's derived from external AND internal factors. To assign internal to external, you'd have to start at the beginning of time, and who the heck knows when that is/was. Exactly. When we're young, we have no internal factors...as we grow up and experience new things and interact with new people, the external factors shape those internal factors. That is what I mean by true inner confidence coming entirely from external sources. However, once that seed is planted, whenever in life that may be, internal factors begin to take over. Without external validation, there can be no true inner confidence. So applying this to people who don't start dating until later in life, they have no seed planted. There are no internal factors to draw from...only the external validation with which to plant that seed and begin growing the inner confidence.
Pirouette Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 We definitely are. But I knew this from the beginning. And you're absolutely right. But it's only a "boost" if you already have a foundation of self-worth and "confidence," so to speak. You're right, at most, it should only provide minor rudder steers to keep you in the right direction. There is a certain truth to it, but I don't agree with the way they go about it. Unfortunately, adults have a considerably higher mental capacity than children to conceive sh*t like this...so that's why you see it...no wonder middle/high schoolers are such a pain in the ass...this is exactly what they do... ...which can only be established through external validation. For many, this happens at an early age, well before adulthood. However, for some, they never come to this realization until later in life... I believe you are thinking about this topic more deeply than people realize and you are looking for answers that necessarily must go deeper in thought. The problem would be in seeking "proof" that is tangible in what is an intellectual debate about what can be a transient state of mind. Thinking about confidence in abillity brought to mind Galileo who likely had an innate propensity towards mathematics which lead him to operate at a level well above his peers. From his own ability he engineered new proofs that determined the heretical idea that the earth was not the centre of the universe. So confident was he in this theory that he refused to recant and spent the rest of his life jailed. The thing is that he had observable patterns in the universe that validated his mathematical proofs and theories. Even in the face of overwhelming censure from his peers and the church, he retained his confidence in his ideas. When debating your ideas about confidence, you have formulated your theory as have the rest of us. How confident are you in your ideas? How confident are they? At this point, there is no measurable proof of anything. You think you're right, they think you're wrong. Which one is true?
snug.bunny Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Exactly. When we're young, we have no internal factors...as we grow up and experience new things and interact with new people, the external factors shape those internal factors. That is what I mean by true inner confidence coming entirely from external sources. However, once that seed is planted, whenever in life that may be, internal factors begin to take over. Without external validation, there can be no true inner confidence. So applying this to people who don't start dating until later in life, they have no seed planted. There are no internal factors to draw from...only the external validation with which to plant that seed and begin growing the inner confidence. But then how can inner confidence be "true", if it's solely based on external forces....
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I believe you are thinking about this topic more deeply than people realize and you are looking for answers that necessarily must go deeper in thought. The problem would be in seeking "proof" that is tangible in what is an intellectual debate about what can be a transient state of mind. I certainly am. And the problem is that most people seek tangible "proof" of this abstract sh*t, so they point to anecdotal evidence with the belief that it's determinative. They will talk about how they themselves do not think they require external validation to feed into their confidence, and in doing so, they believe they have debunked the entire theory with a perceived counterexample or two from their experience. Thinking about confidence in abillity brought to mind Galileo who likely had an innate propensity towards mathematics which lead him to operate at a level well above his peers. From his own ability he engineered new proofs that determined the heretical idea that the earth was not the centre of the universe. So confident was he in this theory that he refused to recant and spent the rest of his life jailed. The thing is that he had observable patterns in the universe that validated his mathematical proofs and theories. Even in the face of overwhelming censure from his peers and the church, he retained his confidence in his ideas. If only the study of social interaction was as definitive as math and science... When debating your ideas about confidence, you have formulated your theory as have the rest of us. How confident are you in your ideas? How confident are they? At this point, there is no measurable proof of anything. You think you're right, they think you're wrong. Which one is true? I certainly agree with what you're saying here. I personally find the discussion enjoyable and thought-provoking, and I leave it at that.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 But then how can inner confidence be "true", if it's solely based on external forces.... I use the word true to describe the state of mind where you have first-hand knowledge of the "truth" of something. More than just mere belief.
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