Green Light Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 People who are confident in themselves and in an ideal are so because of how they feel internally, not because of what others are telling him to feel and be. Not because their parents raised them well and help them develop skills, not because they supported them in their endeavors or success and not even because they succeeded. It's a two way street. I agree that the confidence does start inside but when you see positive external results that are a direct reflection of your confidence then that takes your confidence level up another notch. External validation amplifies internal confidence. But we look for this validation everyday in tiny ways. Even posting on this board is a small cry for validation because you wouldn't be typing on here at all if you didn't want someone to agree with you. You wouldn't care if others got your point or not. There would be no reason to even debate. Your opinion would be the only correct opinion to you and there would be no reason to even try to convince others that you are right. So here we are right now looking for a small dose of validation. The internal confidence provided the motivation that you and I needed to even post on here at all.
threebyfate Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 One way to gain more confidence in yourself is to fail, so you learn how to pick yourself back up again. The more resilient, the more confident you become. 1
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 It's a two way street. I agree that the confidence does start inside but when you see positive external results that are a direct reflection of your confidence then that takes your confidence level up another notch. External validation amplifies internal confidence. But we look for this validation everyday in tiny ways. Even posting on this board is a small cry for validation because you wouldn't be typing on here at all if you didn't want someone to agree with you. You wouldn't care if others got your point or not. There would be no reason to even debate. Your opinion would be the only correct opinion to you and there would be no reason to even try to convince others that you are right. So here we are right now looking for a small dose of validation. The internal confidence provided the motivation that you and I needed to even post on here at all. You almost got something really right without even noticing it.. I hear you on the first part btw... Actually what brought me to this forum is not what is typical or what brings most people...and you might notice that from my posts. I tend to argue with others not too often also, just make my point (because I feel at times it's important, most times It doesn't matter to me to argue it)...however at times I need to further establish the point/opinion or else what would have been the purpose of my post? plus at times you need to establish some credibility/insight to your train of thought...I'll admit it's a form of entertainment as well but not the main goal. Not here to convince anyone actually, I do none of this for validation, or encouragement or even likeability...in fact my goal was/is simple and not about geared towards fulfilling my needs at all.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Don't forget your fat suit and oversized boxing gloves! No, we'll do it the ancient Kickboxer way...rope handwraps coated with resin and glass... ...and a loin cloth...
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I think some of you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say... I am not in any way advocating that one should constantly and forever base their internal confidence based on external validation. It should be everyone's goal to rely solely on internal validation processes and internal confidence, only occasionally using external validation to provide minor rudder steers to keep us guided in the right direction. However, I do believe that without initial success assessed through external validation, we can never form the basis for internal confidence. I find it rather interesting that not a single person has yet addressed my reading analogy... And my theory is primarily used to explain to the "confident" masses why Lovable Losers have such a hard time believing the "you just need 'confidence'" nonsense...they are just like the child learning to read for the first time and needing that external feedback to show them that they are on the right track...you can't know you're doing it right just because you believe you're doing it right...and you can't create knowledge out of nothing... 1
threebyfate Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I think some of you are misunderstanding what I'm trying to say... I am not in any way advocating that one should constantly and forever base their internal confidence based on external validation. It should be everyone's goal to rely solely on internal validation processes and internal confidence, only occasionally using external validation to provide minor rudder steers to keep us guided in the right direction. However, I do believe that without initial success assessed through external validation, we can never form the basis for internal confidence. I find it rather interesting that not a single person has yet addressed my reading analogy... And my theory is primarily used to explain to the "confident" masses why Lovable Losers have such a hard time believing the "you just need 'confidence'" nonsense...they are just like the child learning to read for the first time and needing that external feedback to show them that they are on the right track...you can't know you're doing it right just because you believe you're doing it right...and you can't create knowledge out of nothing...The LLers are so afraid to fail that they won't take any steps, trapped and whining in analysis-paralysis and most often, bitterness based on stuff they learned on the Interwebz about the opposite gender. Talk about counter-productive cow patties. 1
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Wow, I just noticed that Ninja fella's sig line. Demand respect, is that right? Respect is earned, not freely given. The moment any women, demands respect from me, I will cordially tell her where to go. Away! This includes Men as well. If there is a second time, I will not be cordial about it. What is this mentally of deserving respect? You don't deserve a damn thing. And then to demand it? Blowme™. You demand respect through your own actions. It's based on a system of mutual respect.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 The LLers are so afraid to fail that they won't take any steps, trapped and whining in analysis-paralysis and most often, bitterness based on stuff they learned on the Interwebz about the opposite gender. Talk about counter-productive cow patties. I am not defending their actions (or inactions in this case). I am merely trying to explain their thought processes because I feel many here cannot truly empathize with their mental plight. I do agree that they need to get off their ass and do something about it, but until they've tasted the sweet nectar of success, they'll have to fake their "confidence."
threebyfate Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I am not defending their actions (or inactions in this case). I am merely trying to explain their thought processes because I feel many here cannot truly empathize with their mental plight. I do agree that they need to get off their ass and do something about it, but until they've tasted the sweet nectar of success, they'll have to fake their "confidence."The easiest way to gain confidence is by talking to everyone and anyone in real life. The more convos, the more you'll learn social cues, gaining comfort and confidence in interacting with people face à face. Most of the LLers are introverts who barely leave their homes except to go to work, school and possibly grocery shopping. They can practice social skills online to some extent (although most of them prefer to whine and bitch) but that's just a starting point, rather than the crutch they use it for. No one can help these people until they're honestly willing to help themselves which includes learning how to fail. The sky won't fall down, Chicken Little! Chuck the fear.
TheFinalWord Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) To recap my main points: * Confidence is merely a byproduct of success. * No one can just decide or choose to be confident. It has to come naturally from others. * Our level of confidence is determined by the level of regard others have for us. * Hollow “be confident’ pep talks don’t work. If you honestly want to increase another’s confidence, it will require genuine care and effort. * Therefore, stop advising people to “be confident”! If you aren’t willing to put in the effort to help them gain that confidence, then you are just insulting them and wasting their time. Without getting into the semantics of the article, I will tell everyone how to build confidence. I think you are all saying the same things, but no one is using the same terminology. It is possible to build confidence, and I will tell you how from a behavioral theory approach. Now, it's important to recognize that what I am describing is how to build confidence for a specific behavior. Building confidence for a specific behavior is dubbed as self-efficacy. I'm not talking about general, self-esteem. That is a different personality construct. That's related more to mental health. The idea of self-efficacy is rooted in social cognitive theory (SCT), a very popular theory of social learning. SCT places importance on potential of human beings According to SCT five basic human capabilities describe human beings o Symbolizing capability: use of symbols in attributing meaning to experiences § Important for managing one’s environment o Vicarious capability: ability to learn from observing other people’s behavior and the consequences they face § Enables people to generate and regulate behavior without tedious trial and error o Forethought capability: most human thought is purposive and regulated by prior thoughts § Human beings motivate themselves and plan their actions using their forethought capability o Self-regulatory capability: setting internal standards and self-evaluative reactions for one’s behavior § Self-satisfaction is gained from meeting desirable standards, and dissatisfaction results from below-standard performance § Human beings are proactive and constantly form challenging goals for themselves, which also plays into self-regulation o Self-reflective capability: Analysis of experiences and examination of one’s own thought processes § Human beings are not just agents of action but also self-examine and critique their own actions § They generate ideas, act upon them, and in retrospect judge the accuracy and value of the outcomes, finally modify their thinking as needed § Verification of one’s thoughts happens in 4 ways) enactive verification: closeness of one’s thoughts compared to others; vicarious verification: one looks at others actions and compares with their own thinking; persuasive verification: one evaluates one belief’s against what others believe; logical verification: one compares one’s thinking against knowledge that is known From this Bandura (developer of SCT) has developed a series of psychological factors attributed to social learning: · Knowledge: learning facts and gaining insights related to an action, idea, objection, person or situation · Outcome expectations: Anticipation of probable outcomes that would ensue as a result of engaging in the behavior under discussion · Outcome expectancies: Value a person places on the probable outcomes that result from performing a behavior · Situational perception: How one perceives and interprets the environment around oneself · Environment: Physical or social circumstances or conditions that surround a person · Self-efficacy: Confidence in one’s ability to pursue a behavior · Self-efficacy in overcoming impediments: Confidence that a person has in overcoming barriers while performing a given behavior · Goal setting/self-control: Setting goals an developing plans to accomplish chosen behaviors · Emotional coping: Techniques employed by the person to control the emotional and physiological states associated with acquisition of a new behavior So how do you build self-efficacy? There are four ways. By the way, to truly change behavior (or to become a ladies man LOL) you would need to modify most (preferably all) of the behavioral, environmental, and personal factors I listed above (recipricol determinism). You would need to do research for specific populations to build a robust, predictive model. But for this conversation as it relates to personal confidence in an ability, it is built in 4 main ways: 1) Breaking a behavior into small steps. This promotes mastery. 2) Vicarious learning, i.e. role modeling 3) Feedback 4) Reduce stress: Anytime we assume a new behavior, stress is a byproduct. Edited July 7, 2012 by TheFinalWord
MaxNoob Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 However, I do believe that without initial success assessed through external validation, we can never form the basis for internal confidence. I find it rather interesting that not a single person has yet addressed my reading analogy... You can gain inner strength and courage through experiencing hardships. When I was training to be a first responder, I got the highest marks in the class for the written exam and my evaluators were really impressed by my practical exams. But that didn't give me confidence that I could do well in an actual case. On my first major case, I was nervous and horrified, having never seen someone dying right in front of me. I had mere seconds to figure out what was wrong with the patient and try to save her; I did not diagnose correctly and she died. The pain I felt from that case changed me; after that, I was fearless going into a case. Did Martin Luther King Jr. get his confidence from the applause at the end of his speeches? No, people would not have listened to him if he didn't show confidence and courage in the first place. He got that from experiencing hardship and injustice, which strengthened his character, giving him resilience and determination.
yongyong Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I think confidence is maximizing your Potential. (not 50%, not 120% but 100%) A lot of people underestimate themselves even though they already have the talent. Let's say you are in a boxing ring. Thousand hours of training would be worthless if you don't have Confidence in yourself. You can't just go to ring being Confident without Training either. A poor man can be as confident as a rich man. would people look at them the same?
2.50 a gallon Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Hokie Confidence can be self taught. And yes it would be nice to get some external validation, but that is not always necessary I can't tell you the number of times I was told that I couldn't do something, and that only made me more determined to succeed Quite often in life, success in life's endeavors is determined by a persons' determination to succeed. Even though they get knocked down they keep getting up and trying again Have you ever heard the term, "He wouldn't take no for an answer?" Look at the biography of Lincoln, who failed many times in politics, yet never gave up on his beliefs. In reality he was a ugly looking man. But how many of us Americans ever notice? We see that face as one of the greatest leaders our country has ever had.
2.50 a gallon Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Hokie In answer to your reading question. External validation had very little to do with my learning to read. It was more along the lines of I wanted to read my comic books. I can remember in the first week of my first grade when we began to learn to read Dick and Jane, a little light went off in my brain that these same words were in my comic books. And that if I learn the words I could read my comic books. I went home dug out a comic book and began trying to read it. I was determined and began asking my parents "What is this word?" As I posted in another thread, my Ex-fiance flat told me that there was no chance for us, she was not attracted to me in the least, she had other boy friends, and turned me down at least half a dozen times. It was not self confidence that kept my trying, in fact she had me convinced that she would never go out with me. But she looked like a young Sofia Loren, and I thought she was the most beautiful woman that I had ever met in my life. After awhile I expected her to say no. I knew she would reject me, but I was going to keep trying another angle. My current GF of 17 years, turned me down several times after I met her. And after we had been dating for awhile, she also let me know, that she knew I was in love with her, and that she was still in love with her former BF who was off getting cleaned from drugs. He was the love of her life and she would never be able to love another man like she loved him In both situations there was no external validation, in fact it was the opposite.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Hokie In answer to your reading question. External validation had very little to do with my learning to read. It was more along the lines of I wanted to read my comic books. I can remember in the first week of my first grade when we began to learn to read Dick and Jane, a little light went off in my brain that these same words were in my comic books. And that if I learn the words I could read my comic books. I went home dug out a comic book and began trying to read it. I was determined and began asking my parents "What is this word?" You: "Is this how you read this word?" Parents: "Yes." You: "Awesome, then I'm doing it correctly!" or You: "Is this how you read this word?" Parents: "No, it's actually this word." You: "Oh, ok, so now I know how to read this word." External validation. External feedback, whether it be positive or negative, has affected your understanding and ability to succeed in reading, and with an increased capability comes an increased confidence. Next time you come across that word, you won't have to ask again if you're reading it correctly.
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) You: "I know I can accomplish this...I know I can do it" Result = fail You: "Didn't work out that time...what did I do wrong? let me go back to the drawing board" Result = fail You: "Normal human reaction to feel defeated but I'm going to keep trying, maybe there is something I overlooked, maybe I need to take a step back and look at the big picture" Result = Success Confidence maintained in all situations in spite of discouraging emotions, still confident within one self, no external validation needed...only result. Believe in one self maintained. ....................... Alternate world of confidence; You: "I think I look ok but not good, not sure If that is acceptable or will attract people" Random person "You look amazing!" Result = semi confident Random person "You look great!" Result = semi confident Random person " You look fat" Result = confidence sapped You: "Maybe I really don't look great, one person said I was fat..maybe I really am...I question myself based on one persons negative feedback" When you are not a confident person and rely on external validation to base your confidence on, you will never have a strong foundation and basis to maintain a consistency of confidence. You will always waver in the endeavor and always doubt yourself which is why you cannot make a person who is not confident person, because you cannot make one person believe in themselves regardless of external validation. IF that was the case then women in a relationship would establish a high level of confidence in a relationship because of the support, love and nurturing which would serve as external validation profoundly increasing ones self-confidence. But you'll never see that happen because it comes from with you, internally, you have to see it for yourself. Your way: "External validation. External feedback, whether it be positive or negative, has affected your understanding and ability to succeed in reading, and with an increased capability comes an increased confidence. Next time you come across that word, you won't have to ask again if you're reading it correctly." My way: Feedback, whether it be positive or negative, has affected your understanding in reading, and with an increased capability comes an increased comprehension. Next time you come across that word, you won't have to ask again if you're reading it correctly. Edited July 7, 2012 by Ninjainpajamas 1
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 You: "I know I can accomplish this...I know I can do it" Result = fail You: "Didn't work out that time...what did I do wrong? let me go back to the drawing board" Result = fail You: "Normal human reaction to feel defeated but I'm going to keep trying, maybe there is something I overlooked, maybe I need to take a step back and look at the big picture" Result = Success Confidence maintained in all situations in spite of discouraging emotions, still confident within one self, no external validation needed...only result. Believe in one self maintained. Got it, but that is confidence in the process, not the result. You know that the process works...try, and if you fail, you can try again and eventually succeed. And this confidence in the process is built from previous success with the process, i.e., I've failed and tried again before, and eventually I succeeded. And external validation (I tend to use validation and feedback interchangably) is the ONLY way youknow you failed to begin with (if we talk about a social accomplishment which inherently requires other people)...so going back to the technical presentation example, you can't possibly know for certain if your presentation is a successful one if you gave it to an empty room. Alternate world of confidence; You: "I think I look ok but not good, not sure If that is acceptable or will attract people" Random person "You look amazing!" Result = semi confident Random person "You look great!" Result = semi confident Random person " You look fat" Result = confidence sapped You: "Maybe I really don't look great, one person said I was fat..maybe I really am...I question myself based on one persons negative feedback" External validation goes beyond compliments and insults. When you are not a confident person and rely on external validation to base your confidence on, you will never have a strong foundation and basis to maintain a consistency of confidence. You will always waver in the endeavor and always doubt yourself which is why you cannot make a person who is not confident person, because you cannot make one person believe in themselves regardless of external validation. IF that was the case then women in a relationship would establish a high level of confidence in a relationship because of the support, love and nurturing which would serve as external validation profoundly increasing ones self-confidence. But you'll never see that happen because it comes from with you, internally, you have to see it for yourself. Yes, it does come from within, but it requires external sources to assess one's own measures of worth and assess what it really means to "succeed." My point is that your foundation for consistent confidence is built from external sources of feedback. Once that foundation is built, that need or use for the external is greatly reduced. If you keep an infant in complete isolation for 25 years and then throw him out into the world, do you think he could "confidently" succeed? Your way: "External validation. External feedback, whether it be positive or negative, has affected your understanding and ability to succeed in reading, and with an increased capability comes an increased confidence. Next time you come across that word, you won't have to ask again if you're reading it correctly." My way: Feedback, whether it be positive or negative, has affected your understanding in reading, and with an increased capability comes an increased comprehension. Next time you come across that word, you won't have to ask again if you're reading it correctly. You'll have increased comprehension too. But you'll have increased confidence in associating a series of letters to a specific word and not having to repeatedly seek external counsel to see if you made the correct association. Perhaps it's semantics, but I'm breaking this idea of confidence down to its absolute lowest level.
MaxNoob Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 If you keep an infant in complete isolation for 25 years and then throw him out into the world, do you think he could "confidently" succeed? The movie Oldboy made the point that, yes, he could, as long as he was allowed to watch TV during those years. "Can the imaginary training of fifteen years be put to use? It can."
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 The movie Oldboy made the point that, yes, he could, as long as he was allowed to watch TV during those years. "Can the imaginary training of fifteen years be put to use? It can." The movie Underworld made the point that werewolves and vampires are at war with each other. But I looked at the Wiki article on the movie, and it doesn't really do much for your point...the main character appears to be an adult and has had years of external feedback to shape who he is. And training can be put to use if he knew what he was training...and that can only be learned from externally.
Pirouette Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 For the purposes of the discussion, I will define validation as merely confirmation or what is incorrect and correct. Confidence I will define as belief in self-worth and ability. Of course external validation in the above sense is extremely important in humans; it is the process through which we learn most new information and skills. Humans are adaptive creatures capable of processing all manner of complex external information including validation from peers and applying it to their own situation. In your reading example, yes a child is given the book, taught the letters and the words, and it is confirmed for them if they complete the task correctly. This is generally how we all have learned something in our lives. Once we are taught these basic tools of learning, speaking, listening, reading, etc, however we do not rely solely on direct verbal feedback from peers to learn and adapt and validate our success. We can read books, memorize the facts and concepts, and check the book again which confirms that we are correct. We can watch a program on setting snares, set one in the backyard to catch the pesky rabbit and when you find one there in the morning, it confirms your success. You can watch other people playing basketball, go get a ball yourself, and try to throw it in the hoop. You may fail at first, and failure is self-evident, but eventually you will likely succeed, which is also self-evident. Basically, any interaction with the world is a form of feedback and validation. The differences in experience and the rate at which we learn and adapt occur because of the individual. People more naturally inclined towards the task will succeed faster. People who are more stubborn and willful will keep trying until they succeed. Fearful, anxious people may give up before success, if they ever try something on their own initiative at all. With the child learning to read, they will likely get confirmation that they are correct, and it will be a simple yes. One child will take that yes and move on and apply it to all future reading endeavours. Another child will only take that yes as applicable to that one situation, and in future reading endeavours will still require validation that they are still correct. They may eventually learn through repeated validation that they are generally correct at reading and lose the anxiety, or they may not. So now it becomes a question of nature versus nurture, and I believe the nurture side is more where your argument is coming from. Are we a product entirely of our environment and experiences, or are we a product solely of our genetics? Most people would agree that we are influenced by both. Why do identical twins, who are raised in the same environment usually end up with such disparate personalities? I believe genetics influences the potential of your abilities, but it is up to environment to give one an opportunity to bring them forth. Then it is a combination or external and internal factors that will grow them. So in the question of confidence, the belief in self-worth and ability, I do believe that it is affected by external forces, but it is also greatly affected by the personality. I don't think you can hold up as an example a person who has never succeeded at anything, ever, and thus show the effects of complete failure on a individual. Nor will you find someone who has succeeded at everything. So an average person, with average successes and failures, what determines who feels confidence and who feels none?
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) So in the question of confidence, the belief in self-worth and ability, I do believe that it is affected by external forces, but it is also greatly affected by the personality. I don't think you can hold up as an example a person who has never succeeded at anything, ever, and thus show the effects of complete failure on a individual. Nor will you find someone who has succeeded at everything. So an average person, with average successes and failures, what determines who feels confidence and who feels none? Great explanation. We all do move at our own pace, and some will process external forces differently from another. And this same idea can be translated into the world of dating and relationships. Edited July 7, 2012 by USMCHokie
Pirouette Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 The question then is, do you believe people can change? How much power, if any, does pure thought have over someone's reality?
MrCastle Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) Confidence comes from within. External validations are nice, but they're not the basis. It's like the woman with low self esteem who dates losers despite countless people complimenting her looks and telling her she's too good to date the guys she's dating. External validation to me, when you have confidence, is just a confirmation of what you believe to be true. You can't live and die by what other people say or think. You have to first believe in yourself before others can. Some people on this forum seem to be under this idea that if they just catch one break; if one attractive member of the opposite sex gives them a compliment or even signs of interest, they'll be set. Problems will be gone. They will have confidence and their dating life will be a breeze. That kind of thinking doesn't work. You cannot be outcome dependent. Believe in yourself first and foremost. If a girl rejects me, it doesn't crush my world. More often than not, I feel bad for her, or laugh at her inability to spot a top notch guy. That's because I'm confident in who I am, regardless if she's into me or not. I know not every girl I meet will share her sentiments and I will find someone who is into me. Edited July 7, 2012 by MrCastle 2
Badsingularity Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) It's pretty lol to see guys who lack confidence pretend to be experts on it when they don't even know what it is. Edited July 7, 2012 by Badsingularity
MaxNoob Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 The question then is, do you believe people can change? How much power, if any, does pure thought have over someone's reality? The Dunning-Kruger effect shows that there's almost no correlation between perceived ability and actual ability. The main point of the study: ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge. If you're incompetent and unintelligent, you're not smart enough to realize that you're incompetent. This was shown for all sorts of skills such as reading comprehension, driving a car, playing chess or tennis. The most competent people tend to underestimate their abilities. Warren Buffett made the point: there's always a sucker at a poker table, if you don't know who it is, it's probably you. But all too often, people can't realize this. Ask an average guy what time is it; he'll look at his watch and confidently give you an answer. Ask an asto physicist what time is it, and he'll give you a long speech about how he doesn't really understand the question.
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