USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 This tells me, among your other responses, you absolutely depend on external validation and acceptance in order to develop confidence. By this logic someone could tell me I can split a beer atom with a hammer and chisel. After complete failure my response would be. Everyone said I could!!! It's an excuse. Read the below quoted. If you have the requisite intelligence and gullibleness to allow you to believe that you can split a beer atom with a hammer and chisel based on others words, then good on you, and godspeed. Everyone requires external validation. Even you. The point is that the external stimuli has little to do with the results. It is the interpretation of the external stimuli and reaction to it. But you still need that feedback to interpret and react to...
ThaWholigan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I feel like the real point is being missed: The point that regardless of external validation, people need to stop being little bitches and change their lives if it's pissing them off so much . Moaning all the time is not going to help. And articles like this don't help. 2
WeAllMightBeNuts Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Read the below quoted. If you have the requisite intelligence and gullibleness to allow you to believe that you can split a beer atom with a hammer and chisel based on others words, then good on you, and godspeed. Everyone requires external validation. Even you. But you still need that feedback to interpret and react to... Fair enough. But it is the interpretation that is the foundation. And EVERYONE has control of the interpretation. And if you have control of the interpretation, you have control of decision to tip the scale toward confident or not. Thus disproving the myth that you have no hand in your attitude, decisions, results, life. That's why you decide.... Is the glass half empty or half full?
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Fair enough. But it is the interpretation that is the foundation. And EVERYONE has control of the interpretation. And if you have control of the interpretation, you have control of decision to tip the scale toward confident or not. Thus disproving the myth that you have no hand in your attitude, decisions, results, life. That's why you decide.... Is the glass half empty or half full? Yes, and that interpretation is built from your own experiences and the feedback received from others as you grew up. The glass is how you see it based on your life...if life shat all over you, then more likely than not, you will see it half empty...
WeAllMightBeNuts Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Yes, and that interpretation is built from your own experiences and the feedback received from others as you grew up. The glass is how you see it based on your life...if life shat all over you, then more likely than not, you will see it half empty... Disagreed.
ThaWholigan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 For CHokie? Half empty, of course. I think he may have just stepped into an intervention and didn't know it. Nah, he's been concocting this theory for a while - he's got some good points about it. In some form, many people do react to external validation. Where I disagree is that one needs external to form internal. That would be suicide of the soul to me - and would indeed render someone completely dependent on it. I think that on some level, we have to effectively deal with external forces. But on everything else, I don't really think he's wrong. But again, that wasn't the point. The point was this silly article is nothing but another excuse for people to cling to hopelessness and bitching - even with the added little positive bits thrown in.
brahmabull117 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Yes, and that interpretation is built from your own experiences and the feedback received from others as you grew up. The glass is how you see it based on your life...if life shat all over you, then more likely than not, you will see it half empty... USMC the problem people have with your assertions is that you're making it an all or nothing kind of a thing I believe EVERYBODY here agrees that external validation and early childhood experiences have a big effect on our self esteem and confidence but you make it seem like it's impossible to have confidence based on internal forces and that it's impossible to overcome negative external forces and to still believe in yourself. To make an analogy, there's no doubt that the way you treat dogs has a huge effect on their personality but half of Michael Vick's tortured pitbulls still went on to become fantastic family pets. The internal can sometimes be stronger than the external
ThaWholigan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 The glass is how you see it based on your life...if life shat all over you, then more likely than not, you will see it half empty... No. I never would.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 USMC the problem people have with your assertions is that you're making it an all or nothing kind of a thing I agree that I tend to be very black and white with things in general. I believe EVERYBODY here agrees that external validation and early childhood experiences have a big effect on our self esteem and confidence but you make it seem like it's impossible to have confidence based on internal forces and that it's impossible to overcome negative external forces and to still believe in yourself. Confidence as defined by modern culture should be derived from internal forces, I have absolutely no argument with that. I genuinely believe that. HOWEVER, the seed of success MUST be planted at some point in your life to develop that internal force. And for a vast majority of us, that seed is planted at such an early age that we take it for granted that we all started from external validation. There are some out there who never received this validation, especially in the form of dating. In essence, they are still "children" with regards to dating. How can you gain confidence in dating if you've never dated before? Analogously, how do you know you're reading correct if no one tells you you're doing it right? External validation is an absolute must for everyone. I am speaking particularly to those who think that "confidence" is all a person who has never kissed a girl or gotten a date needs to succeed in dating. They can't empathize because they've never experienced that lack of confidence as an adult. Adults have considerably higher mental capacity than children, so adults have the presence of mind to actively seek out the same validation that children do without consciously thinking about it.
ThaWholigan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I agree that I tend to be very black and white with things in general. Confidence as defined by modern culture should be derived from internal forces, I have absolutely no argument with that. I genuinely believe that. HOWEVER, the seed of success MUST be planted at some point in your life to develop that internal force. And for a vast majority of us, that seed is planted at such an early age that we take it for granted that we all started from external validation. There are some out there who never received this validation, especially in the form of dating. In essence, they are still "children" with regards to dating. How can you gain confidence in dating if you've never dated before? Analogously, how do you know you're reading correct if no one tells you you're doing it right? External validation is an absolute must for everyone. I am speaking particularly to those who think that "confidence" is all a person who has never kissed a girl or gotten a date needs to succeed in dating. They can't empathize because they've never experienced that lack of confidence as an adult. Adults have considerably higher mental capacity than children, so adults have the presence of mind to actively seek out the same validation that children do without consciously thinking about it. I reiterate - I've never dated/had sex yet I'm fairly confident about dating. Externally validated? EDIT: I did actually finally kiss a girl last month so I guess that counts as external validation
brahmabull117 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I agree that I tend to be very black and white with things in general. and that severely hurts your credibility (no offense). Nothing in life is black and white Confidence as defined by modern culture should be derived from internal forces, I have absolutely no argument with that. I genuinely believe that. HOWEVER, the seed of success MUST be planted at some point in your life to develop that internal force. And for a vast majority of us, that seed is planted at such an early age that we take it for granted that we all started from external validation. Confidence comes in many sources and external validation is only one of those Alot of people who read PUA books gain the confidence to get girls based on just pure knowledge and understanding of the system without any real life success. They apply that knowledge and understanding and are able to succeed even without any prior success
WeAllMightBeNuts Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 and that severely hurts your credibility (no offense). Nothing in life is black and white Confidence comes in many sources and external validation is only one of those Alot of people who read PUA books gain the confidence to get girls based on just pure knowledge and understanding of the system without any real life success. They apply that knowledge and understanding and are able to succeed even without any prior success But Hokie will take this as "external stimuli" to validate his hypothesis. Mine is that any book and the information therein has much less to do with the result as the choice of how to interpret it. Again, choice.
Bristolius Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I reiterate - I've never dated/had sex yet I'm fairly confident about dating. Externally validated? EDIT: I did actually finally kiss a girl last month so I guess that counts as external validation You do seem pretty confident. My reading is that you get external validation here at LS. But you get the external because you already have the internal. Good job. Good example.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 and that severely hurts your credibility (no offense). Nothing in life is black and white When you strip away all the bullsh*t, life is pretty binary... Confidence comes in many sources and external validation is only one of those Alot of people who read PUA books gain the confidence to get girls based on just pure knowledge and understanding of the system without any real life success. They apply that knowledge and understanding and are able to succeed even without any prior success That's why I consider PUA stuff "fake it til you make it"...it's nothing more than a catalyst to get those first few successes to develop the true confidence...
Robert Z Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I think it is self-evident that while a certain amount of external validation is required in life in order to have confidence, the fallacy at work is that external validation gaurantees confidence. It does not. So it isn't simply a matter of external validation. Again, going back to the earlier example, one must be prepared to have true confidence, but being prepared does not gaurantee confidence.
WeAllMightBeNuts Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I'm confident that I am done with this thread.
Green Light Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I agree with Hokie 60%. In other words, I thinks it's 60% external and 40% internal. When I first learned to drive I was not confident in my abilities at all. Of course this faded very quickly as I spent time driving and saw that I wasn't going to cause an accident every time I went out on the road. This is external validation. It was the internal confidence[what little I had] that got me behind the wheel in the first place to even attempt driving. As usual life is very messy and nothing is totally 100%. I do believe that external validation is absolutely necessary for one's mental health and that we seek it out everyday without even knowing it. Did you comb your hair today? You comb your hair because you want to give a certain image of yourself and in return you expect that image to be positively reflected back to you from other people. Otherwise you wouldn't care what your hair looked like. That's just one little example of how we are seeking external validation on a daily basis. One little rant: the thing that bothers me these days is this apparent need for people to feel like they are super heroes and like they don't need other people. He**, there was even an ad on this very site that said "Create you own super hero"! And there was a picture of a cartoon woman there with her fists clenched and gritting her teeth. But anyway, The self help crowd is partially responsible for this. Everyone thinks they are an island now. Self help is usually based around inflating the ego. There was an Ani Defranco song years ago that had the lyric "why must everyone be a F****** Napoleon"? I agree. I would actually like to see people acting *less* confident and more accepting that they, and others, are fallible creatures. Expecting less and not more. And if you really want to put things into perspective: nobody's tombstone will read "John Doe 19** - 20** He was a real confident guy"! 1
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 But Hokie will take this as "external stimuli" to validate his hypothesis. Nah, I'm not really trying to seek validation for a theory I find to be pretty sound. I find that most counterarguments I get come from a position of pride...no one wants to admit to being externally driven at some point in their lives...and I have yet to really get any compelling arguments against it beyond conclusory statements...though zengirl has come the closest to making me ponder... I actually find this mildly enjoyable...practicing my lawyerin' skills... 2
ThaWholigan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Nah, I'm not really trying to seek validation for a theory I find to be pretty sound. I find that most counterarguments I get come from a position of pride...no one wants to admit to being externally driven at some point in their lives...and I have yet to really get any compelling arguments against it beyond conclusory statements...though zengirl has come the closest to making me ponder... I actually find this mildly enjoyable...practicing my lawyerin' skills... Yeah, we'll have to agree to disagree really. Maybe I am prideful, but I'm more prideful that I don't rely on others for my happiness. I don't really care to be honest, as long as I stay this happy, and I will My point in this thread was really that people tell others to be confident so that they will stop bitching and do something. I think I should actually just make a thread telling people to stop bitching.
Green Light Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 What a crock. And some guys wonder why they can't get laid. You don't really say how it's a "crock." And I have gotten "laid" plenty of times in my life. But keep on believin'! You are a super-HERO!
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 There are many things here that are mentioned here that normal factors and influences of life, they're just being skewed towards a certain perspective and point of view. - Positive reinforcement, a normal reaction of support as human beings value encouragement but it does not simply make one confident or not thereof, depending on what was received - Success/failure when everybody has obviously failed and succeeded in life regardless of confidence, is a poor determination to whether someone will become confident or not - Natural emotions of fear and self-doubt that you will have regardless of confidence because life is not meant to be mastered and new challenges are always scary because they are unknown. Confidence is not derived from only fulfilling expectations, these are elements that encourage a behavior, a practice, a logic...it tells you that A plus B usually results in C. External validation in confidence is at best wavering, because depending on circumstances it will either plummet or rise like the stock market. Internal confidence will not break and become a variable, because it's the way you approach situations..It's how you live, it's the way you handle these situations, It's how you feel about yourself, you believe enough of yourself that instead of stand in front of that imaginary line of limitation...it allows you to proceed beyond...not because you know you will succeed but because you have the courage to fail If you have to. For example: Eternal Sunshine said she had no confidence regardless in passing the test, she felt that she would fail or could fail. This is normal apprehension towards something you were not conditioned or familiar with, part of learning and growing up. Yet because she succeeded she became more confident in the result, she knew she could succeed. Was it confidence or lack there of that allowed her to pass? Or was it the studying that took place that gave the answers to these questions? If she was confident, she would have passed...If she was not, she would have passed as she did...so what validation does she receive from this? that studying results in passing tests? that knowledge and memorization provides answers to tests? She became confident in a sense in that result because she realized that she could accomplish it...does that make her a confident individual? does that mean this new found confidence will play over into other facets of life? Not necessarily and even likely, however with internal confidence it bleeds into everything because it's become apart of who you are, it's a level of respect and self-awareness that makes you comfortable with circumstances others would not be in. That means the next time she takes a test in that same institution/situation she may not panic again...Does she now feel she can master any test? probably not...because it's only specific to that situation. Anyone can be confident in a specific task or situation, it's the dynamic where confidence is truly test, not the static and somewhat predictable or what you already know you can succeed at. And that's the main problem....people who only have confidence in the things in which they succeed in regardless of where that has derived from...people that use that as a determination of where they stand and what their glass ceiling is...positives or negatives...will always be vulnerable to the same circumstances that created their confidence to bring them right back down. Because the external validation may be ever changing, so who are you IF you must receive this validation to determine what you can and cannot do, where you can and cannot succeed. What do you believe in if nobody believes in you? Conveniently this argument is used to support external validation...If a man succeeds it's because of external validation which created his confidence and success, IF he fails It's his lack of confidence thereof because he never succeeded in this endeavor before..and because a man has not succeeded in one thing he simply tries another and If he succeeds in that respect It's not because he has confidence it's because he simply tried something else. What about the man who never succeeded even though he still believes in himself? what about the man who succeeded in spite of being scared, nervous and completely foreign to something and never had any kind of support system that still accomplished it with confidence that had no right to be there based on external validation? If you need someone to constantly tell you how important you are or what you are worth, then you do not have confidence...because a person with confidence does not let these factors affect them dramatically...he only cares about the opinions of people he truly cares for..sure little things from people may affect them, we all have a heart but that makes them human not confident or lack of. Is everything a convenient part of this "external validation"? and can be twisted into it? People who are confident in themselves and in an ideal are so because of how they feel internally, not because of what others are telling him to feel and be. Not because their parents raised them well and help them develop skills, not because they supported them in their endeavors or success and not even because they succeeded. Internal confidence is like a beating heart of who you are, you go into the shadows not because someone told you could, or you were right, or smart, or stupid, or because you have a light to guide you...but because you have a belief in yourself and If nothing else the will and determination. You will try to succeed even IF you fail, because you know there is a chance, and one failure won't make you a loser and one success won't make you a loser, If you lack one thing you'll make up for it with something else, you lose this you'll replace it with that, you look for solutions and ways to succeed not accept the barriers in general. The higher the internal confidence, the more leaps you can take, the bigger risks, even though you don't know If you'll land on your feet.
brahmabull117 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 There are many things here that are mentioned here that normal factors and influences of life, they're just being skewed towards a certain perspective and point of view. - Positive reinforcement, a normal reaction of support as human beings value encouragement but it does not simply make one confident or not thereof, depending on what was received - Success/failure when everybody has obviously failed and succeeded in life regardless of confidence, is a poor determination to whether someone will become confident or not - Natural emotions of fear and self-doubt that you will have regardless of confidence because life is not meant to be mastered and new challenges are always scary because they are unknown. Confidence is not derived from only fulfilling expectations, these are elements that encourage a behavior, a practice, a logic...it tells you that A plus B usually results in C. External validation in confidence is at best wavering, because depending on circumstances it will either plummet or rise like the stock market. Internal confidence will not break and become a variable, because it's the way you approach situations..It's how you live, it's the way you handle these situations, It's how you feel about yourself, you believe enough of yourself that instead of stand in front of that imaginary line of limitation...it allows you to proceed beyond...not because you know you will succeed but because you have the courage to fail If you have to. For example: Eternal Sunshine said she had no confidence regardless in passing the test, she felt that she would fail or could fail. This is normal apprehension towards something you were not conditioned or familiar with, part of learning and growing up. Yet because she succeeded she became more confident in the result, she knew she could succeed. Was it confidence or lack there of that allowed her to pass? Or was it the studying that took place that gave the answers to these questions? If she was confident, she would have passed...If she was not, she would have passed as she did...so what validation does she receive from this? that studying results in passing tests? that knowledge and memorization provides answers to tests? She became confident in a sense in that result because she realized that she could accomplish it...does that make her a confident individual? does that mean this new found confidence will play over into other facets of life? Not necessarily and even likely, however with internal confidence it bleeds into everything because it's become apart of who you are, it's a level of respect and self-awareness that makes you comfortable with circumstances others would not be in. That means the next time she takes a test in that same institution/situation she may not panic again...Does she now feel she can master any test? probably not...because it's only specific to that situation. Anyone can be confident in a specific task or situation, it's the dynamic where confidence is truly test, not the static and somewhat predictable or what you already know you can succeed at. And that's the main problem....people who only have confidence in the things in which they succeed in regardless of where that has derived from...people that use that as a determination of where they stand and what their glass ceiling is...positives or negatives...will always be vulnerable to the same circumstances that created their confidence to bring them right back down. Because the external validation may be ever changing, so who are you IF you must receive this validation to determine what you can and cannot do, where you can and cannot succeed. What do you believe in if nobody believes in you? Conveniently this argument is used to support external validation...If a man succeeds it's because of external validation which created his confidence and success, IF he fails It's his lack of confidence thereof because he never succeeded in this endeavor before..and because a man has not succeeded in one thing he simply tries another and If he succeeds in that respect It's not because he has confidence it's because he simply tried something else. What about the man who never succeeded even though he still believes in himself? what about the man who succeeded in spite of being scared, nervous and completely foreign to something and never had any kind of support system that still accomplished it with confidence that had no right to be there based on external validation? If you need someone to constantly tell you how important you are or what you are worth, then you do not have confidence...because a person with confidence does not let these factors affect them dramatically...he only cares about the opinions of people he truly cares for..sure little things from people may affect them, we all have a heart but that makes them human not confident or lack of. Is everything a convenient part of this "external validation"? and can be twisted into it? People who are confident in themselves and in an ideal are so because of how they feel internally, not because of what others are telling him to feel and be. Not because their parents raised them well and help them develop skills, not because they supported them in their endeavors or success and not even because they succeeded. Internal confidence is like a beating heart of who you are, you go into the shadows not because someone told you could, or you were right, or smart, or stupid, or because you have a light to guide you...but because you have a belief in yourself and If nothing else the will and determination. You will try to succeed even IF you fail, because you know there is a chance, and one failure won't make you a loser and one success won't make you a loser, If you lack one thing you'll make up for it with something else, you lose this you'll replace it with that, you look for solutions and ways to succeed not accept the barriers in general. The higher the internal confidence, the more leaps you can take, the bigger risks, even though you don't know If you'll land on your feet. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^ /thread
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Ninja, I can't wait to duke it out next week. Don't forget your fat suit and oversized boxing gloves!
Recommended Posts