Necromancer Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) This is a interesting writing about confidence i found, courtesy of this response to a internet blog in 2007. It reads, in part: Below is a copy of an email essay I sent out to a few dozen people in the “self-help” industry about 5 years ago. Predictably I only got a handful of responses. And of course they all insisted I was wrong. After all, their livelihoods depend on maintaining the myths I debunk. But they offered no evidence to disprove me, nor any useful insights. When I read Winston's excellent blog on "attitude extremists" it reminded me of what I had written. So I thought I'd post it here for your enjoyment. You'll notice I list 3 areas to focus on in order to improve confidence. Of course if I were writing this today I'd add a 4th: Get the hell out of the US! THE MYTH OF CONFIDENCE If I had a dime for every time someone told me to “be confident”, I’d probably be a millionaire by now. And as a millionaire, I’d probably have a lot of women throwing themselves at me and a lot of men respecting & admiring me. And the inevitable result of all this would be… You guessed it!.., Confidence. So the next time you feel like telling someone to be confident, just throw them a dime instead. It’d be a thousand times more useful. In fact, I’ve noticed a disturbing trend in the last few years. All of a sudden, everyone’s talking about confidence. (or it’s close relative, “self-esteem”) Everywhere I read, every show I watch, every dimestore shrink I consult. Everyone’s advising everyone else to be more confident. (a hypothetical: What if everybody took this advice and suddenly everyone had perfect confidence? Wouldn’t it just level the playing field right back to where it already was, and thus, not make a damn bit of difference anyway???) Suddenly, all the women on the dating shows and in the advice columns are telling us how much they’re attracted to this mysterious new quality called confidence. And conversely, how the lack of confidence is a big turn-off. And predictably, men now feel the need to brag about how confident they are. And the confidence fad seems to be growing at a rapid pace. But I’m about to point out how it’s all just the psychological equivalent of the Pet Rock fad from the 70’s. Like the Pet Rock, advising someone to “be confident” is useless and does nothing. But like the Pet rock, it allows the giver to feel like they did something nice. They didn’t. Yet people keep buying it & buying it & buying it. The reality about confidence is so simple and so obvious, it amazes me that otherwise intelligent people haven’t figured it out. Or maybe they have figured it out and they’re too dishonest with themselves to admit it. Perhaps the reality is too uncomfortable. After all, it’s much easier to sell books and self-help courses with fantasy than with reality. So here’s the truth about confidence: You can only have confidence when other people give it to you. getting popcorn Edited July 7, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Attribution and copyright 3
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 (edited) I agree 100% with this. True inner "confidence" comes entirely from external sources of validation. It's funny how every self-help book I've read talks about the value and need for external validation. Some just get it earlier than others and take it for granted that they ever got it... All "confidence" is is the internal association of positive emotion with success, which is assessed by external feedback. Edited July 7, 2012 by USMCHokie 1
Author Necromancer Posted July 7, 2012 Author Posted July 7, 2012 I agree 100% with this. True inner "confidence" comes entirely from external sources of validation. It's funny how every self-help book I've read talks about the value and need for external validation. Some just get it earlier than others and take it for granted that they ever got it... All "confidence" is is the internal association of positive emotion with success, which is assessed by external feedback. Yes and i love to " everyone is beautiful in their own way quotes ". I didn't knew Ted Bundy had something beautiful about him.
brahmabull117 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I agree 100% with this. True inner "confidence" comes entirely from external sources of validation. It's funny how every self-help book I've read talks about the value and need for external validation. Some just get it earlier than others and take it for granted that they ever got it... All "confidence" is is the internal association of positive emotion with success, which is assessed by external feedback. I don't agree with you on this at all. If it was the case, the only people who would be confident would be good looking and tall guys who earn six figures and drive fancy cars and we all know this is simply not the case. We all know of the men who are very confident and very likable despite being very unremarkable in all areas of life The reason PUA books always tell guys to be confident is because there really isn't a whole lot of difference between the average guy who does very well with women and the average guy who struggles with women. There are a ton of guys out there who are perfectly normal looking, who may be good guys and may have good jobs that are awkward and lack confidence with women...no surprise they do terrible I've known guys who were completely average in every area who did very well with women and I've known guys with good jobs and handsome faces that were insecure and did not do well with women. Hell I've known guys who were dead broke who did very well with women. People are not robots - accomplishment does not automatically make somebody love himself and believe they can get any girl they want. The idea that confidence is a myth is simply a myth in itself The notion of improving yourself in all areas is fantastic. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but it's not enough in a lot of cases. Simply improving your appearance or your job will not automatically override all your insecurities with women. You have to attack the cause of your insecurities and fix your internal wiring where you can be yourself and still be appealing to girls.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Yes and i love to " everyone is beautiful in their own way quotes ". Well, telling that to someone is a form of external validation...
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I don't agree with you on this at all. If it was the case, the only people who would be confident would be good looking and tall guys who earn six figures and drive fancy cars and we all know this is simply not the case. We all know of the men who are very confident and very likable despite being very unremarkable in all areas of life Not necessarily. If this was the case, then only good looking and wealthy people could date and be in relationships. Being in a relationship is a form of external validation, yet average folks do it. Their confidence is relative to their own attractiveness level. I actually watched the documentary, The Science of Sex Appeal, last night for the first time, and I tend to agree with a lot of it. People will shoot for the most desirable mate and move down the ladder until they eventually reach the level comparable to their own. This is how they hypothesize that attraction is initial determined by oneself, and it driven by external feedback. Therefore, when you have discovered your own attractiveness, both physical and nonphysical, your relative confidence rises when you are also seen as attractive by those you deem attractive. The reason PUA books always tell guys to be confident is because there really isn't a whole lot of difference between the average guy who does very well with women and the average guy who struggles with women. There are a ton of guys out there who are perfectly normal looking, who may be good guys and may have good jobs that are awkward and lack confidence with women...no surprise they do terrible Exactly, because they haven't experienced the success that the average guy who does very well with women have experienced. Take any Joe Schmo PUA student...the moment he gets his first "success," he's always advertised as saying, "wow, that was easy!" Suddenly his confidence jumps sky high...but why is that? External validation. Without it, he would have never believed. You have to attack the cause of your insecurities and fix your internal wiring where you can be yourself and still be appealing to girls. And how do you assess your progress in attacking these insecurities? External feedback.
ThaWholigan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Meh. Articles like that merely give people the excuse to not try to have a sense of self-worth that isn't completely dependent on what people think of them. This basically comes back to the whole external validation thing that we were talking about not too long ago. I've come to the conclusion that it is indeed quite important to our progression, but it's equally important to have a level of internal self-worth that enables one to persevere in the event of a lack of external validation. Because without it, one is ENTIRELY dependent on everyone else for your own self-worth. That's a surefire path to depression IMO. Not for me. I prefer to produce my own confidence rather than have it given to me. The 3 things on that list are a no-brainer anyway. People think these things are too hard, and then wonder why they lack confidence.
Author Necromancer Posted July 7, 2012 Author Posted July 7, 2012 Confidence is not a myth. Jesus. He is not saying that. he´s saying that its a myth that you can choose to be confident.
Robert Z Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I think there is a lot to be said for developing confidence as a byproduct of your upbringing. But also I think it has a lot more to do with parents and other significant figures in your life. It is true that success breeds confidence, but confidence also breeds success. It is really all about being comfortable in your own skin. If you are then you can be at your best without allowing social inhibitions to get in the way. Now I can ride on either side of the fence, as is probably true of most people. There are times when my confidence just isn't there for some reason. When on my way to something significant where my confidence is front and center, say for example for a technical presentation, and assuming that I'm well prepared, I can be a success or a failure based solely on my confidence. If I seem tentative or unsure of myself for any reason, I may not convince anyone of anything. But given the same presentation and a high level of confidence, I can shine like a light and wow everyone. Confidence isn't about having a false sense of superiority or infallibility. Confidence allows you to deal with failures productively and proactively. It allows you keep things in perspective. It helps you to get yourself up off the floor and try again. So if one, two, or three hundred girls reject you, then by god 301 is going to do it! It isn't about never failing, it is more about never quitting and not allowing your failures to define you. We all fail, but the only real failures in life are quitters. Confidence is all about never giving up. 2
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Meh. Articles like that merely give people the excuse to not try to have a sense of self-worth that isn't completely dependent on what people think of them. This basically comes back to the whole external validation thing that we were talking about not too long ago. I've come to the conclusion that it is indeed quite important to our progression, but it's equally important to have a level of internal self-worth that enables one to persevere in the event of a lack of external validation. Because without it, one is ENTIRELY dependent on everyone else for your own self-worth. That's a surefire path to depression IMO. Not for me. I prefer to produce my own confidence rather than have it given to me. The 3 things on that list are a no-brainer anyway. People think these things are too hard, and then wonder why they lack confidence. I don't disagree that no one should become entirely dependent on external validation to determine their self-worth, but we all have to start somewhere. People who have established a healthy sense of self-worth often struggle to understand this and can't truly empathize with those who have never had success dating (e.g., the Lovable Losers). They received their dose of external validation at a much younger age when they didn't even realize it and was able to form the foundation for their self-worth. Those who never got this early on and become adults without struggle to determine their self-worth because no foundation was ever built.
brahmabull117 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Hokie, my problem with your point is that you make it seem like how good looking and successful somebody is determines how confident they're going to be. It's just not true. I could grab a 100 random guys off the street that are about the same level of success/appearance and get wildly different confidence levels among the 100 guys the PUA books try to enlighten the average guy that they don't have to look like a model, have six pack abs or earn 150,000 dollars a year to get girls. This knowledge in itself is power and it can inspire a lot of confidence in men who no longer feel like they have to live up to society's idea of a perfect man to appeal to women. They can get girls just being themselves (which is absolutely true - the #1 thing women judge men on is personality - which is primarily built on confidence) In that sense, confidence is absolutely NOT a myth and accomplishment is not always necessarily the key to confidence (though it does help). Liking oneself is the key to confidence (and you can accomplish that in a lot of different ways)
Bristolius Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 There's this: Study finds students narcissistic - Boston.com I'm old enough that I was raised before the self esteem movement. I feel lucky.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I think there is a lot to be said for developing confidence as a byproduct of your upbringing. But also I think it has a lot more to do with parents and other significant figures in your life. It is true that success breeds confidence, but confidence also breeds success. It is really all about being comfortable in your own skin. If you are then you can be at your best without allowing social inhibitions to get in the way. Now I can ride on either side of the fence, as is probably true of most people. There are times when my confidence just isn't there for some reason. When on my way to something significant where my confidence is front and center, say for example for a technical presentation, and assuming that I'm well prepared, I can be a success or a failure based solely on my confidence. If I seem tentative or unsure of myself for any reason, I may not convince anyone of anything. But given the same presentation and a high level of confidence, I can shine like a light and wow everyone. Confidence isn't about having a false sense of superiority or infallibility. Confidence allows you to deal with failures productively and proactively. It allows you keep things in perspective. It helps you to get yourself up off the floor and try again. So if one, two, or three hundred girls reject you, then by god 301 is going to do it! It isn't about never failing, it is more about never quitting and not allowing your failures to define you. We all fail, but the only real failures in life are quitters. Confidence is all about never giving up. Success and failure breeds confidence. Much like success, failure is another form of external validation (or invalidation) which forms the foundation for our self-worth. But without these successes and failures, which are determined by external sources, we have no idea what we are really "worth." Let's take your technical presentation for example. Who do you think has more confidence in their presentation? One who has practiced it to themselves in the mirror a couple times, or one who has given the presentation to an audience a dozen times? Confidence is a direct byproduct of external feedback. Of course there will always come a time when you no longer need the applause from the audience after you're presentation is over, but like I said before, we all need to start somewhere. 1
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Hokie, my problem with your point is that you make it seem like how good looking and successful somebody is determines how confident they're going to be. Well, I did previously have a thread regarding exclusively physical attractiveness, but in general, confidence is a byproduct of external feedback, regardless of whether it's good looks, money, or fame. It is part of everything.
brahmabull117 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Well, I did previously have a thread regarding exclusively physical attractiveness, but in general, confidence is a byproduct of external feedback, regardless of whether it's good looks, money, or fame. It is part of everything. No sorry man, I don't agree with you. I know guys who are plenty confident who are completely unremarkable in every area Sometimes confidence just comes from a man who likes himself for who he is and feels that he is worthy of getting a great girl...regardless of anything external
Author Necromancer Posted July 7, 2012 Author Posted July 7, 2012 Hokie, my problem with your point is that you make it seem like how good looking and successful somebody is determines how confident they're going to be. It's just not true. I could grab a 100 random guys off the street that are about the same level of success/appearance and get wildly different confidence levels among the 100 guys the PUA books try to enlighten the average guy that they don't have to look like a model, have six pack abs or earn 150,000 dollars a year to get girls. This knowledge in itself is power and it can inspire a lot of confidence in men who no longer feel like they have to live up to society's idea of a perfect man to appeal to women. They can get girls just being themselves (which is absolutely true - the #1 thing women judge men on is personality - which is primarily built on confidence) In that sense, confidence is absolutely NOT a myth and accomplishment is not always necessarily the key to confidence (though it does help). Liking oneself is the key to confidence (and you can accomplish that in a lot of different ways) Women care 2x more about mans looks than his personality.
ThaWholigan Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I don't disagree that no one should become entirely dependent on external validation to determine their self-worth, but we all have to start somewhere. People who have established a healthy sense of self-worth often struggle to understand this and can't truly empathize with those who have never had success dating (e.g., the Lovable Losers). They received their dose of external validation at a much younger age when they didn't even realize it and was able to form the foundation for their self-worth. Those who never got this early on and become adults without struggle to determine their self-worth because no foundation was ever built. I've never had success dating. Why has it not affected my self-worth in regards to that area of my life? Or should I say no longer affects? I've never been rich. Why am I so confident that I will become that? And likely I'll be happy even if these things never happen. Am I an anomaly??
brahmabull117 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Women care 2x more about mans looks than his personality. I have a pretty handsome face and the physique of an NFL running back in real life and I can tell you that's complete nonsense. I don't get girls if I can't make them like me on a personality level I would 10 times rather be an average looking guy with a great personality than a model with no personality (assuming that I couldn't improve myself in either scenario)
Author Necromancer Posted July 7, 2012 Author Posted July 7, 2012 You can absolutely choose to be confident. It involves not giving one single **** about what someone may think of your own actions, attempts, and failures. Choose to fail, or choose to succeed. It's mental muscle, exercise it enough and you develop strength. Why to try if you don´t give a ****? If it would be that easy, everybody would be running around 100% confident.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Sometimes confidence just comes from a man who likes himself for who he is and feels that he is worthy of getting a great girl...regardless of anything external Ok, from this, I don't think you quite get what I mean by external validation. I don't mean external attributes. I mean any feedback you get external from yourself, that is, from other people. It has nothing to do with looks, though feedback can often come based on your physical appearance.
Bristolius Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Unless someone defines confidence, this thread could get confusing. For example, couldn't the confidence needed to attract the opposite sex be a simple lack of stammering and fidgeting?
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I would 10 times rather be an average looking guy with a great personality than a model with no personality (assuming that I couldn't improve myself in either scenario) I'd rather be a model with a great personality. 1
brahmabull117 Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I mean any feedback you get external from yourself, that is, from other people. The confidence comes before the feedback, not the other way around 1
Robert Z Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 Success and failure breeds confidence. Much like success, failure is another form of external validation (or invalidation) which forms the foundation for our self-worth. But without these successes and failures, which are determined by external sources, we have no idea what we are really "worth." Let's take your technical presentation for example. Who do you think has more confidence in their presentation? One who has practiced it to themselves in the mirror a couple times, or one who has given the presentation to an audience a dozen times? Confidence is a direct byproduct of external feedback. Of course there will always come a time when you no longer need the applause from the audience after you're presentation is over, but like I said before, we all need to start somewhere. Those things all relate to confidence, but at its core, confidence is nothing but a state of mind. One cannot be confident if one is uprepared, but assuming that one is prepared, confidence is still a choice. I have to do it all the time. While on the way I am often thinking these sorts of thoughts over and over. "I am prepared. I know the material. Now, relax. Just be yourself. Breath deeply. I know this stuff. Just let it all flow. It is completely a choice.
USMCHokie Posted July 7, 2012 Posted July 7, 2012 I've never had success dating. Why has it not affected my self-worth in regards to that area of my life? Or should I say no longer affects? I've never been rich. Why am I so confident that I will become that? And likely I'll be happy even if these things never happen. Am I an anomaly?? Because you have established self-worth based on other things which you value more than becoming rich. And those things were assessed through external feedback mechanisms.
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