Marriage: A Rigid Concept In a Dynamic World. Why not consider other options ?

[M30USA]

It's threads like this that really show the hidden misandry.

 

I thought women wanted men to communicate more in marriage but I guess not. Is it any wonder some men just stop trying? Would the women here have the same responses if the genders were reversed?

 

Yep, it's taken me 30 years to realize women are NOT better at communicating (even emotions) and women are NOT more compassionate. It really comes down to the individual. I don't know why the notion that women are better communicators gets repeated endlessly but it's false. If anything, men are more apt at communicating in an objective manner with minimal or no self-interest involved, merely seeing a situation for what it is.

[mem11363]

NT,

This is a "guess" but you did most of the talking during that conversation? That needs to stop. One reason she doesn't respect you properly is "all this talking."

 

Next step:

(NT) I have decided to take all this pressure off you, I have found a massage parlor. So I'm good to go and we don't think we need to discuss this any further.

 

 

 

Wow, Mem11363. That was a pretty good analysis from afar, with little info. Bravo.

 

For me personally: Had the first step into the "open marriage" discussion just yesterday. The one piece of advice from all the commenters which was really helpful was that whatever I said should feel "vulnerable", and it very much did. My wife learned a few things about me that she didn't know, despite knowing each other for over 13yr (married 10yr). The open marriage idea did come up, but I did not try to lock in any specific agreement. I was just relieved to have options on the table. I just kept focused on the important things which were kids, her needs/wants, and my needs/wants....and said, 'look, if we start down that road, we'll need to go slow, carefully discuss rules/limits/dangers, and it would need to be of a temporary/trial nature. That's as far as we went on that subject. Overall, we had the most amazing and positive conversation as we'd both felt we'd reached some sort of deadend in our discussions.

 

So, really that's just a new chapter in our relationship, which I hope will be a long book. Thanks to all for the ideas/thoughts. Even the really negative allegations were useful to think through in examining my own motivations (as best I am able), even if not entirely on target. :-)

 

 

For ALL of us: The marital concept in our culture is radically over-simplified, too rigid, over-hyped as a grand solution, and it is failing. If we simply would become more flexible in our views, and MUCH MORE HONEST in disclosure of risks/costs to those getting married the first time, I think we could save a lot of people from a lot of mental anguish. That, and $4, will get you a latte, but its still true !

 

QUESTION: HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD SUPPORT A MANDATORY STANDARDIZED DISCLOSURE OF MARRIAGE STATISTICS, RISKS & COSTS, AND EXPECTED BENEFITS TO THOSE CONSIDERING TO TAKE THE LEAP FOR THE FIRST TIME ?

[NewThoughts]

NT,

Have you ever asked your W how she would feel about an open marriage?

 

The reason I ask is this. Your W has made it clear this is your "personal problem" which is shorthand for: "I do not care if this is making you miserable"

 

The real question that you have to ask yourself is actually even simpler: Is it acceptable for my W to demand that I remain celibate for the rest of my life? Alternatively you could ask her "do you think it is fair to demand I remain celibate for the duration of our marriage/our life?"

 

That's it. Just ask her that one question. And if her response is that she is not demanding celibacy and that she is "willing to have sex with you" I would have to disagree. Because when she lies there - radiating a "hurry up an finish" vibe - she is using body language to silently but blatantly reject you.

 

But I don't think she has to worry because somehow, you have allowed her to remove your sense of "self". You have enabled her to modify your "self perception" such that YOU don't really exist as a distinct person with wants, needs and hopes. Instead you are there to:

- Co-parent the children and

- Fund her current lifestyle so she doesn't have to worry about money

 

I don't say that lightly. I only mention it because once that happens, people become increasingly uncomfortable saying things like: It is not acceptable for you to demand that I remain celibate while simultaneously meeting everyone else's needs.

 

And the way that discomfort expresses itself is very consistent:

1. Why can't society change so that I can claim that what I want is totally normal? This is driven by a desire for group approval of what you wish to do.

2. I have to do this for the kids.

 

BTW - (2) is a valid point. You are setting a bad example of what a loving / healthy marriage is.

 

There is a way to have this conversation with your W. A script you can follow. But using that script effectively requires that you first relearn to see yourself as a person worthy of independent needs. Someone who has the RIGHT and the resolve to define and enforce boundaries such as: I will not allow anyone to demand a lifetime of celibacy from me.

 

Once you have that sense of self, happy to share the script because you will be prepared for, and accepting of her response whether it is:

- If you do that, I will divorce you and take the kids to a far away place

- You can do that if you want to - I don't care (while her tone is saying the opposite)

- I really think that is the only fair option for you

Wow, dude. You totally nailed me on that. Really. Quite accurate.

 

I just finished two great books along with my wife after having that *exact* conversation. It totally broke the logjam. It started with an email giving her three options: 1 figure out how to have a passionate and intimate relationship with me, 2- I go find my passion elsewhere, or 3- divorce. Man, that has totally flipped everything around. It really is just that simple. And, yes, the kids are worth it ! :-)

 

the books, both good reads but entirely different styles:

- The married man sex life primer 2011, Athol Kay

- Passionate Marriage, Keeping..., David Schnarch.

Edited July 28, 2012 by NewThoughts
Add book recommendation

[NewThoughts]

Because marriage is the tool by which women extract assets from men, why would they want to give that up?

 

Based on the rate of mutually agreed no-fault divorces and infidelity, sems there's a large number of dissatisfied women as well.

 

Want an eye/opening book on the subject of alternatives to Victorian/Puritan marriage model, read Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality -Ryan.

[mem11363]

NT,

You can read a book about this - or many - but I am going to abstract it for you as this appears to work for MANY people. It was written by a man (me) for men, though with slight mods it would work well for a woman.

 

 

If you are a man and you want to have a passionate relationship with your wife:

1. ALL dominance starts in-house. That means you learn to control YOUR emotions - especially the two biggest enemies fear and uncontrolled anger.

2. True control of emotions enables great self control of your behavior. Not just the words that issue from your mouth, but your body language.

3. The baseline against which you measure behavior is the golden rule. Do NOT allow people to treat you worse than you would treat them.

4. Acknowledge that without respect you have nothing. ALL respect emanates from in-house. If you don't respect yourself, well you can finish that sentence.

5. Earn respect by performing, demand respect by inflicting swift and sure consequences when treated in an unacceptable manner.

6. Be empathetic and supportive and loving when your W is hurting.

7. Be stern and firm when she is taking her bad day/bad mood out on you.

8. Be fun to be around. Playful, upbeat, fun and funny.

9. Be around less and make it clear why when you are not being treated fairly.

10. You are allowed to have needs. Express them. You are not allowed to be needy. There is a giant difference between the two.

11. Learn your W. A husband who says "no one can understand women, does not understand his wife. This lack of knowledge is often fatal to the marriage" Pay attention - she is likely fairly consistent.

12. Accept that your W will love you MORE when you assert yourself in a rational, strong, firm and consistent manner.

13. Learn to talk a LOT LESS and communicate much more and much better with body language.

 

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

In my marriage it is 80-20. She gets her way at least 80 percent of the time. Fine by me. The 20 percent is the stuff that matters to me and in those cases we either do it my way or compromise in a way that I am happy with.

 

I have a simple and common scenario that most of the "nice guys" here simply have totally lost the ability to pull off. When I want to do something "new/different" I always give my W right of first refusal. We went on an extended family (her extended family) vacation a few summers back. I told her in advance that I was going to spend a day white water rafting. Now she has always told me she doesn't like rafting. I told her I would her company if she wanted to give it a shot, but was fine going without her if not.

 

She chose not to go but didn't for a moment think to try to discourage me from going - because

1. She is a good wife and

2. I would react very badly to her saying she didn't want to go and then trying to convince ME not to go

 

So my brother in law and I went had a great time. We came back that night and he and I were planning to go kayaking the next day. Funny thing - she asked to come - which was great. She came and we had the best time. He and I tipped over and she didn't. Quite funny really.

 

Back to being dominant. There are situations where you can only either go left or right. There IS no compromise in those situations. SOMEONE has to dominate. The nice guys posting - they have lost the ability to do that.

 

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

I believe you do need to be sensitive and caring and have a good sense of humor. This is not about that. Because remember - before marriage she was nice BACK. What this is about is how men react when our female partners begin to conduct male "fitness tests" by pushing our boundaries. What would have happened if you had firmly addressed your W's texting behavior when it first started?

 

I believe women react badly to hearing that something makes you feel bad "after you have already told them once or twice". The first time is key because now they "know" and it is no longer a communication issue it is now a question of whether or not she is going to prioritize your need. I do believe many women respond better to action than words. And the ultimate male behavior women respond most strongly to is NOT anger - it is indifference. They are exceptionally aware of what indifference means to the power dynamic in a relationship. Guys - we aren't ALLOWED to use our physical strength advantage in a relationship which I personally think is a great improvement over historical "rules of engagement". Unless it is an extreme case and she is directly harming your children, highly emotional / verbalized extreme ANGER just conveys: The desperate hurt of a man whose love is overpowering his self control. Big step back. The calm determined mode of "if you do X, I am reluctantly going to have no choice but to do Y" works very well but you have to have the determination to follow through.

 

For example - I absolutely go into "limited communication" mode when I feel a boundary has been violated. And I don't come out until I get an explanation that makes sense or an apology. And not a "non" apology. I don't respond well to "I am sorry that upset you". Just as I apologize when I am wrong - which is a little bit more than 50 percent of the time . Limited communication is simple, requires no particular verbal skills - it DOES require a willingness to have conflict and to allow conflict to persist and sometimes escalate.

 

And the one time in our marriage she said she needed "space" I started scheduling long weekend visits with friends and family and began to steadily ramp that up until I heard the magic words "I miss you".

 

If you asked my W to predict my future marital behavior she would say: "Treated fairly he will NEVER leave and NEVER cheat", "Treated badly - he will either openly take a lover or flat out leave depending on the specifics of the situation".

 

I would loosely say the same thing in reverse with the exception being that instead of taking a lover I imagine she would simply focus on making my life a non-stop living hell if she felt very badly treated. And if THAT didn't work THEN she would leave me.

 

 

In this context - you cannot have daily communication with someone/text them "goodnight" every night when they are having an open ended series of EA's and ever hope to effectively convey indifference.

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>

"I am the product of thousands of generations of successful male ancestors. When necessary they were totally determined and utterly ruthless. I see no reason to alter a behavioral pattern that has worked so well for so long."

 

 

>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

My ultimate litmus test of where my W's head is at has to do with our sex life. Sorry - but that is a fairly objective measure of how "into you" a woman is. If she is into YOU, she really wants you to be into HER emotionally and the strongest emo glue to use with a man is frequent - good/great sex.

 

So since we are in the world of total transparency I will share a strange but completely true sequence with you.

 

Our sex life always ranged from good to great. At times when we were younger and I literally demanded pretty damn near daily sex we had tension - but she wanted to make it all work so she made the effort.

 

Based on the rate of mutually agreed no-fault divorces and infidelity, sems there's a large number of dissatisfied women as well.

 

Want an eye/opening book on the subject of alternatives to Victorian/Puritan marriage model, read Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality -Ryan.

[mem11363]

NT,

The quality time thing is a big deal. If you are pushing to spend more time with her than she wants, THAT is hurting your marriage.

 

When you are with someone, you have a non-verbal vibe:

- Happy

- Engaged with the SITUATION

- Relaxed in a good way

 

Or, checked out, down and edgy.

 

Step one is to get that where it needs to be - or KEEP it there if already good

 

Step 2 is subtle, and oh so critical.

- Manage the space, physical space between you. KEEP some space unless she cues you that she WANTS you inside her personal space

- Manage the VERBAL space between you:

a. compliments, especially about appearance/hotness - create closeness

b talking to her about the relationship - BAD IDEA - going forward she initiates that are they don't happen

c. talking to her to prevent silence - BAD IDEA

d. talking MORE than she does - BAD IDEA

- Manage the emotional space between you. This is largely a body language thing.

 

Radiate "happy with the world" - do not radiate "happy with you". Nor unhappy with you. This is the "I am a happy - fun person - and we happen to be together

 

This does not mean being cold. Being cold means that if she attempts to close the space to be closer to you - let her.

 

 

 

Based on the rate of mutually agreed no-fault divorces and infidelity, sems there's a large number of dissatisfied women as well.

 

Want an eye/opening book on the subject of alternatives to Victorian/Puritan marriage model, read Sex at Dawn: The Prehistoric Origins of Modern Sexuality -Ryan.

[RedPurse]

EVERYBODY knows the rules of marriage:

- Get married

- Be "faithful"

- Be honest

- Be happy and grow old together

 

Fact: ~50% of ALL marriages fail completely, prior to one partner expiring

Fact: Just based on the very high frequency of posts, many existing marriages are suffering from issues of needs/wants unresolved, resulting in a lot of frustrated, hurt people who all feel like losers.

 

Here's an idea: Maybe its our maniacal devotion to a concept that MOST people fail at. Why not explore more open, dynamic relationships without all the shame, guilt, and judgement ?

 

Like many other men here, I'm married (10yr) with 2 kids, and have most everything running well in life, but with a void of intimacy for several years that hurts and I've got to a point where I have to be honest and start looking for options.

 

I don't want to leave my wife, but I've got to satisfy my needs for intimacy and I want to be honest with my wife. (yep, talked to my wife repeatedly, on subject. Bottom line, I have a problem and she's just fine with the way things are now.) So, I'm thinking to bring up idea of a uniquely open relationship that fits our needs/wants.

 

Has anyone else navigated this before me (hopefully successfully) ? Advise/tips greatly appreciated ! :-)

 

Looking outside of your marriage to satisfy your needs is never the right thing to do or an option. It will only cause more problems. You would now have another woman and I can see all sorts of drama. No one is very going to be truly "okay" with it even if they agreed to the terms.

 

For example, let's say you and your wife both agree to having an open marriage. How would you feel if you knew your wife is sleeping with another man and giving him intimacy, and not you?

 

Divorce rates only prove that women and men haven't learned to get along and make things work and that there is a decline of morals. The high divorce rate should alarm us that we need to do anything we can to protect our marriage. An open marriage is a fake divorce...it may not count on paper, but it counts in the lives of those involved.

 

I would not support it. For your situation, try to resolve it with your wife and if she's refusing to, then you need to let her know that your needs are important and make a choice if you want to stay or not. I'm sure her needs are being met, if they are, you deserve yours to be too. No man or woman should ever look outside of their marriage to satisfy needs.

Edited August 2, 2012 by RedPurse

[NewThoughts]

@RedPurse - pretty clear opinion. Why do you think that ? I'm not questioning your rationale, just seeking to understand it. Its not so obvious to me.

 

If you would have interest (willingness?) to read a challenging perspective, read Sex at Dawn (Sex at Dawn) A few notable quotes on the book:

A New York Times bestseller in both hardcover and paperback.

 

One of NPR’s Favorite Books of 2010.

 

Winner of the 2011 SSTAR Consumer Book Award (Society for Sex Therapy & Research), and the Foundation for the Scientific Study of Sexuality’s Harriet and Ira Reis Theory Award in Sexology for 2011.

 

A Best Book of 2010 (Audible.com).

 

“The single most important book about human sexuality since Alfred Kinsey unleashed Sexual Behavior in the Human Male on the American public in 1948.”

— Dan Savage

 

"Funny, witty, and light . . . the book is a scandal in the best sense, one that will have you reading the best parts aloud and reassessing your ideas about humanity's basic urges well after the book is done."

— Newsweek

 

“[sex at Dawn] helps put the ‘human’ back in ‘human sexuality.’”

— AASECT (American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists)

[frozensprouts]

@RedPurse - pretty clear opinion. Why do you think that ? I'm not questioning your rationale, just seeking to understand it. Its not so obvious to me.

 

If you would have interest (willingness?) to read a challenging perspective, read Sex at Dawn (Sex at Dawn) A few notable quotes on the book:

A New York Times bestseller in both hardcover and paperback.

 

One of NPR’s Favorite Books of 2010.

 

Winner of the 2011 SSTAR Consumer Book Award (Society for Sex Therapy & Research), and the Foundation for the Scientific Study of Sexuality’s Harriet and Ira Reis Theory Award in Sexology for 2011.

 

A Best Book of 2010 (Audible.com).

 

“The single most important book about human sexuality since Alfred Kinsey unleashed Sexual Behavior in the Human Male on the American public in 1948.”

— Dan Savage

 

"Funny, witty, and light . . . the book is a scandal in the best sense, one that will have you reading the best parts aloud and reassessing your ideas about humanity's basic urges well after the book is done."

— Newsweek

 

“[sex at Dawn] helps put the ‘human’ back in ‘human sexuality.’”

— AASECT (American Association of Sexuality Educators, Counselors and Therapists)

 

are you the author of this book? just wondering...

 

one thing that you mentioned is that as long as one's needs are being met in a marriage, then infidelity most likely won't occur...

 

speaking from experience, that may true on one level, but not on another.

 

If one's needs for the marriage are being met, that may be true, but sometimes spouses have other needs that their husband/wife can't meet, but rather than tell their spouse about it, they bottle it up ( not referring to sex here, but other emotional needs).

the things is, it's pretty unfair to expect one's spouse to mind read...sometimes even body language isn't eough. If you aren't happy about something ( work, family, whatever) and your spouse asks you what is wrong, for god's sake don't say "nothing'...tell them what the problem is...even if they can't help they can listen, and that can really help create intimacy and a feeling that they are there for you.

 

I know lots of women who feel really sad that their husband's don't seem to be able to let them know when something is wrong...sadly, sometimes these men (and women do it too) then blame their spouse for not being there for them through their problem...

[giotto]

that's exactly what my wife did. There was always "nothing wrong", when clearly there was. The lack of communication and being able to communicate your needs/feelings are extremely important. Without them, the marriage is doomed. Like mine. I had to wait 27 years to hear what my wife really thinks about my needs: they are less important then hers, especially regarding sex. I was shocked (this happened the other day). When we have sex, she gives her body to me, so her needs are more important than mine and she has to decide when and how it's going to happen. I understand that she has psychological problems, but nothing that can't (and is) be treated with pills, so this shows me a total lack of respect towards me. We are not talking about wanting sex every day. And it's not just sex, it's intimacy and connection.

 

As Mem says, the only way out is indifference and withdrawing. I've been sleeping in my office recently due to my back-ache. She told me she missed me and she was even thinking I was having an affair! We bought new mattresses for our marital bed, with the promise I would go back. Guess what? After what she told me, I'm never going back. I can't be in the same bed with a person who obviously doesn't give a flying f*** about my needs. I'll look after them myself, thank you very much!

 

are you the author of this book? just wondering...

 

one thing that you mentioned is that as long as one's needs are being met in a marriage, then infidelity most likely won't occur...

 

speaking from experience, that may true on one level, but not on another.

 

If one's needs for the marriage are being met, that may be true, but sometimes spouses have other needs that their husband/wife can't meet, but rather than tell their spouse about it, they bottle it up ( not referring to sex here, but other emotional needs).

the things is, it's pretty unfair to expect one's spouse to mind read...sometimes even body language isn't eough. If you aren't happy about something ( work, family, whatever) and your spouse asks you what is wrong, for god's sake don't say "nothing'...tell them what the problem is...even if they can't help they can listen, and that can really help create intimacy and a feeling that they are there for you.

 

I know lots of women who feel really sad that their husband's don't seem to be able to let them know when something is wrong...sadly, sometimes these men (and women do it too) then blame their spouse for not being there for them through their problem...

[melindalea]

I beleive that if you are talking about staying with your wife and her agreeing to having an open relationship is just opening the door to bigger problems for yourself. Has she told you why she;s not interested in you anymore? maybe shes going through some female isssues or maybe there is something you can do to turn her on again to spicen it up...yet maybe she already has someone else to take your place.

[giotto]

I beleive that if you are talking about staying with your wife and her agreeing to having an open relationship is just opening the door to bigger problems for yourself. Has she told you why she;s not interested in you anymore? maybe shes going through some female isssues or maybe there is something you can do to turn her on again to spicen it up...yet maybe she already has someone else to take your place.

 

 

If you are talking about my situation, no, she hasn't anybody (she is too lazy for that) and she's told me that "love" changes and it's never going to be like the first years. Mind you, she does tell me she loves me, but she is not that interested in sex anymore. I know it's partly due to the ADs she is taking, but it's also - I believe - being able to be in control. She hates not being in control. And she hates conflict. So, by not discussing and prioritising her own needs, she is safe in her little world. She's told me that she would understand if I left, but things are not going to change, ever. Sex is when she decides it's going to be, when it suits her. She likes it when we have it, but it has to be her own decision. She has to think: ok, today we are going to have sex, regardless of my needs. I suppose it's up to me to stay or leave. Since I have decided to stay for the kids, then I'll have to suck it up. But she is not going to get one single bit of me from now on.

[NewThoughts]

No, not an author, and have no commercial interest in any book mentioned. I paid $10 for it like everyone else. Well worth the research and ideas, IMHO

[NewThoughts]

@Giotto - try reading The Married Man Sex Primer 2011 by Athol Kay. He speaks directly to the general issue that you mention. He makes a cheeky promise, which is actually true....he guarantees within a year or two, you can be having hot steamy sex with your wife. The only catch is that it may not be your current wife. Its only $10, and well worth the read.