Marriage: A Rigid Concept In a Dynamic World. Why not consider other options ?

July 3, 2012

What happens if Bob and Jane are happily married for 15 years and then something happens and they divorce.

Does that mean their 15 years together was a waste? Does that mean the marriage they had for 15 years was a failure?

July 3, 2012

What happens if Bob and Jane are happily married for 15 years and then something happens and they divorce.

Does that mean their 15 years together was a waste? Does that mean the marriage they had for 15 years was a failure?

I don't think so.

While I do agree that many people don't go into marriage truly willing to give whatever it takes to make it work - I doubt they did in days gone by, either. Divorce was just much more difficult to come by back then - "no fault" was uncommon, there was much more negative social stigma, etc.

I'm not saying that ease of divorce is a positive thing. But neither is a miserable marriage that just survived because divorce was "not done."

July 3, 2012

Until we know what he's done "wrong" to deserve no intimacy, it's all speculations. Some women go off sex, some others need to be swoon all the time, like Janesays says... Some others are full of resentment because they are not getting what they want... some time is a combination of all of the above. If they have been talking about for it for 5 years, I suggest that the OP gets a nice divorce or, if he stays, accept it and shut up, because his wife is not going to change, regardless. A marriage is a complicated thing and often there are millions of reasons. In my experience, when it gets to this stage, it's gone down the drain...

July 3, 2012

Spend some time making sure he's turning HER ON.

And what if she doesn't want to be turned on? To me, it sounds like she is proposing a sexless marriage, like my wife did to me. BTW, you don't sound bitter at all, do you?

July 3, 2012

Has anyone else navigated this before me (hopefully successfully) ? Advise/tips greatly appreciated ! :-)

I've slept with another man outside my marriage with my husband approval. He felt backed into a corner and agreed for the wrong reasons. He lied to himself and me saying he was okay with it. I'm highly sexual and my husband lets me play to fulfill my sexual need and desires. We had a lot to talk about and it wasn't easy but essentially we have a one sided open marriage and for us it works - now that we know what doesn't work

July 3, 2012

The problem with this thread is. . . is it about the OP's personal problems with his marriage or about marriage.

Yes, marriage requires fidelity, to most people. Not to everyone. Some people are fine with open marriages. All of that needs to be negotiated upfront in the OP's point and wasn't. I think it's a VERY bad sign when someone already in a M where such things were agreed on - monogamy etc - thinks the whole idea of loyalty and fidelity is bunk, for whatever reason, and it tends to make me fairly unsympathetic. The whole notion is a bit self-absorbed, IMO, to think that a whole system is to blame for your failure to maintain your own marriage. There's nothing wrong with the system of marriage, though I agree it shouldn't be "one size fits all" and people are free to modify it as they see fit, including both agree to and want open marriages if that's their thing (it wouldn't be mine) -- things do go awry in many marriages, though, but that's the responsibility of the people in them.

That's not to say I'd suggest there's anything shameful about an open marriage, if both partners agreed upfront. Or, frankly, if his wife is into it. But it doesn't sound like the OP knows much about his wife at all, sadly. They sound disconnected, and that's rarely the work of just one partner.

I will say that "discussing" sex, especially in a "I'm not getting it and I want it way!" is a terrible way to improve a sex life or desire. I can't think of anything that's a bigger turnoff. Seriously.

At any rate, I don't think the problem is fidelity or monogamy. I think the problem is that men disconnect emotionally and women disconnect sexually over time, if a connection is not properly maintained. Talking about how the connection went awry is hardly akin to fixing the connection. In this case, it sounds to me like the OP threw the final straw onto the pile and told his wife he wasn't interested in sex unless she was, getting the opposite of his desired effect from that move.

Edited July 3, 2012 by zengirl

July 3, 2012

EVERYBODY knows the rules of marriage:
- Get married
- Be "faithful"
- Be honest
- Be happy and grow old together

Hello New Thoughts,

Interestingly, the above is the ideal, not so much the rule. Many people throughout the generations have broken at least one of those ideals, including people who stay married.

Fact: ~50% of ALL marriages fail completely, prior to one partner expiring

This is current, but it was not always this way.

Fact: Just based on the very high frequency of posts, many existing marriages are suffering from issues of needs/wants unresolved, resulting in a lot of frustrated, hurt people who all feel like losers.

This has happened for generations. Only relatively recently (for the last 60 or so years?) have more people who have felt like this gotten divorced and/or decided not to marry again.

Here's an idea: Maybe its our maniacal devotion to a concept that MOST people fail at. Why not explore more open, dynamic relationships without all the shame, guilt, and judgement ?

No thank you The reason I say this is because I understand the purpose of marriage ideally. The purposes of an ideal marriage includes the following:

1. Family connection: Marriage = promise of commitment, which is the foundation to a healthy family life. For example, if a father does not commit to being there for his mate and his offspring, the mother has to "take his place" which is often difficult (and visa-versa).

2. Shared goals: A strong marriage really needs the people making the promises to share reasons why to marry and how to live, as well as what to accomplish. For a long time and even today, arranged marriages are based on shared goals of the different family groups being united. The goal in many of these unions was just that: union of different family groups, and the goals included sharing the same ideals.

3. Strong community: If you study different communities, it is interesting to see the families represented. Adults and children both make a community strong, with the adults teaching the children. I really like the African proverb that Hilary Clinton quoted: "It takes a village to raise a child." Although it is the parents' responsibility of course, the other people in the community most definitely influence the children. When married people who have committed to each other and who have shared goals group together in a community, the result is very powerful.

Like many other men here, I'm married (10yr) with 2 kids, and have most everything running well in life, but with a void of intimacy for several years that hurts and I've got to a point where I have to be honest and start looking for options.

I don't want to leave my wife, but I've got to satisfy my needs for intimacy and I want to be honest with my wife. (yep, talked to my wife repeatedly, on subject. Bottom line, I have a problem and she's just fine with the way things are now.) So, I'm thinking to bring up idea of a uniquely open relationship that fits our needs/wants.

Has anyone else navigated this before me (hopefully successfully) ? Advise/tips greatly appreciated ! :-)

I am glad you don't want to leave your wife. However, I understand your desire for intimacy. Personally, I don't believe marriages are a strong commitment unless the expectations are met. If my husband and I did not share sexual and emotional and spiritual intimacy, I would feel like you as well. There are many things you can do, including counseling, praying, support groups, and so on. I don't believe it's a good idea to give up on your marriage until all options have been exhausted. I very much hope that the issues get resolved and that you and your wife are happier than ever!!!

July 3, 2012

OP,

is it possible that you are talking to your wife but she's not hearing what you think you're saying? ( you're saying something meaning one thing, but she's hearing it differently)?

that can happen so easily, and it can really build resentment up in both spouses, which is the last thing either one wants.

Have you tried sitting your wife down and telling her you are not happy and that you are not willing to accept things the way they are? Then present her with some options that you feel would be better ( I'd suggest that one of them be marriage counseling together...sometimes a neutral third party can be really helpful in helping you both "hear" each other)

if you bring up an open marriage, make sure that you both really, really REALLY give it some thought before you both agree to it. While it works for some people, for others, it is terrible. Remember, if you get to sleep with others, then she may want to as well. How will that make you feel, knowing she is with someone else besides you? What if she decides she likes sleeping with other men, but you don't like her doing it? AN open marriage may make things even worse, as anyone I've ever heard of who had a successful open marriage has had to be able to really communicate well with their spouse and be very open with each other....from what you say, you guys aren't like that.

Has she ever given any indication as to why she doesn't want intimacy with you? The fact that she tries ( even if it means she 'fakes' it) would seem to indicate that she loves you and wants you to be happy, so where does the disconnect lie? Was she always this way? If not, did something happen that seemed to make her change? ( I'm not accusing you, but did you cheat on her or hurt her deeply in some way...maybe you did hurt her but she's never told you)?

I hope you two are able to find a solution that works well for both of you, and that you are able to be happy

July 3, 2012

I will say that "discussing" sex, especially in a "I'm not getting it and I want it way!" is a terrible way to improve a sex life or desire. I can't think of anything that's a bigger turnoff. Seriously.

.

That's the truth. I speak from personal experience.

In my first marriage, I came to a point where I could not stand the thought of having sex with my husband.

I felt that I loved him, I still thought he was handsome and smart, but there were some serious issues between us that were eroding my feeling of trust in him.

I withdrew sexually.

Meanwhile, we were in MC and supposedly "working" on the issues, but he wasn't really working on them; in fact, he was lying (I found out later).

All the while, his focus was on lack of sex. That is what he talked about in MC, and more sex is what he believed would make our marriage back on track. The counsellor became focussed on helping ME get back in touch with my sexuality and helping ME return to sexually satisfying my husband.

BUT, I was not capable of being like that with him when there was this huge "elephant in the room" situation going on.

The focus on the sex and HIS needs drove me deeper and deeper into withdrawal, that way. And all the talk removed any potential for passion to come back.

In my marriage, the problems underlying all of this were very profound and, as it turns out, I was intuitively withdrawing from my husband out of a need to protect myself - for good reasons. That's kind of extreme, but even in more "normal" circumstances, issues that are completely subsumed by a man's "NEED" for sex and the woman's role of bad and frigid denier will NEVER lead to a return to fulfilling sex.

For the record, I'll add that I very much wanted to resolve the serious problems we had (and HE had all on his own) that were destroying our intimacy and our marriage and I would have done whatever it took to do so. But all he wanted to do was get me back to the sexy times, without doing anything to rebuild the damaged parts himself.

Edited July 3, 2012 by Mme. Chaucer

July 3, 2012

Thanks, ALL, for the comments and ideas. All of them. Every relationship of more than a few years is a complicated interwoven story. Yours too !

A few comments on the more common marital diagnostic questions:

- it's not really the sex, per se, but the whole package of intimacy. When intimacy works, it creates a virtuous cycle of emotional support that beats any artificial drug. I used to have that with my wife, now I don't, and I've tried everything I know to do. House chores, special gifts, weekend getaways, making her dinner, passionate forceful kisses and gentle nibbles. Everything. I can't figure out how to get it back. After years of mental anguish, I actually find it feels better to just accept it and start looking at other options.

CT/MT - my wife sees this issue as entirely my personal problem. Sure, shed go to therapy with me if I made an issue of it just like she's willing to give me duty sex. I don't want either of those. I want the explicit honest emotional exchange that I call intimacy.

Purpose of marriage: Absolutely. Kids. Kids need to feel safe, they need structure, they need love and attention. That's a fixed and rigid need, and a responsibility I'm quite serious about. What kind of example do I set for my kids if they watch me shrivel up emotionally and deny my needs for a decade ? That's one of my motivators to start looking at other options.

So, what's next for me ? Well, for me, I want to explore the option of an open or flexible marriage before I look at the divorce option. I've got too much invested (Inc a couple great kids) to ditch the whole relationship.

What's next for ALL of us ?

First of all, when do we start talking honestly about marriage for what it is: a failing social structure. Societal change is always scary ( remember the abolition of slavery, womens rights, no taxation without representation, etc). That's what I'm going to do. We literally have more factual disclosure on credit card applications, then in the marriage process. I'd like to see all couples sign a disclosure statement on marriage failure stats before being married. I'd also like to see other options treated with more open mindedness. How do we accomplish that ?

July 3, 2012

some wives say no i quote "i'm finished with all that" the that is sex and "well there's more to marriage than that" men have needs, more fool women who won't open their legs, sorry, and i know some men should shave lay off booze and get their moobs fixed and be affectionate and honest, but once a man has tried to be attractive and his wife still says no, then he is entitled to leave/stray, which might well have women here telling me off, but be careful, you are asking the imposible of alot of men if you expect them to like celibacy

You're right about that ! :-)

July 3, 2012

I've slept with another man outside my marriage with my husband approval. He felt backed into a corner and agreed for the wrong reasons. He lied to himself and me saying he was okay with it. I'm highly sexual and my husband lets me play to fulfill my sexual need and desires. We had a lot to talk about and it wasn't easy but essentially we have a one sided open marriage and for us it works - now that we know what doesn't work

Thanks, HHC. Glad to hear about your success. Can you share more about how you navigated that ?

- how did you handle the discussion initially, or how do you wish you had handled it ?

- what sort of rules or guidelines did you find to be important for sustainability ?

July 3, 2012

A few comments on the more common marital diagnostic questions: - it's not really the sex, per se, but the whole package of intimacy. When intimacy works, it creates a virtuous cycle of emotional support that beats any artificial drug.

Intimacy is wonderful and stems from openness, communication, and connection, which it seems are lacking in your marriage at this point. When did that go awry? How? That's where I would start, personally, in terms of figuring it out, if it was important to me.

CT/MT - my wife sees this issue as entirely my personal problem. Sure, shed go to therapy with me if I made an issue of it just like she's willing to give me duty sex. I don't want either of those. I want the explicit honest emotional exchange that I call intimacy.

Have you been giving intimacy? You listed a whole bunch of things you tried, but none of them are really about intimacy. To me, intimacy is a combination of empathy and vulnerability. It is only gained by giving, not requesting. Truly. It should be mutual for a R to function, but really the only way to go out and fix intimacy in a R is to be truly vulnerable and intimate with someone about your feelings. That wasn't on the list of things you've tried -- it seems like you've tried to please your wife, reason with her, etc. The really scary thing about intimacy and vulnerability is it leaves you open to being truly hurt.

It sounds like you and your wife have both detached from this marriage at this point. Nothing you write suggests 'how' that happened really. I will say blame is an anathema to intimacy. (You can have no intimacy while you have blame or calculation.) But intimacy is a tricky thing, not easily 'achieved' just because we want it; can't really be gotten at all, only shared or given.

Purpose of marriage: Absolutely. Kids. Kids need to feel safe, they need structure, they need love and attention. That's a fixed and rigid need, and a responsibility I'm quite serious about. What kind of example do I set for my kids if they watch me shrivel up emotionally and deny my needs for a decade ? That's one of my motivators to start looking at other options.

I don't think staying in an unhappy marriage is a good thing for children, personally, nor do I think kids need married parents to have good lives. They need parents who can communicate well enough to raise children. As to what an open marriage teachers or doesn't teach kids, it would really depend on the parents involved, I'd think. I'd worry about teaching my children to compartmentalize intimacy and sexuality if they saw a situation where a marriage became open because it had begun to fail. In those circumstances, opening the marriage ultimately leads to its demise anyway in most cases. Statistically, I mean.

So, what's next for me ? Well, for me, I want to explore the option of an open or flexible marriage before I look at the divorce option. I've got too much invested (Inc a couple great kids) to ditch the whole relationship.

Sounds like a discussion to have with your wife. I suggest complete and total honesty and vulnerability, as that's the most 'intimate' course, really.

What's next for ALL of us ?
First of all, when do we start talking honestly about marriage for what it is: a failing social structure. Societal change is always scary ( remember the abolition of slavery, womens rights, no taxation without representation, etc). That's what I'm going to do. We literally have more factual disclosure on credit card applications, then in the marriage process. I'd like to see all couples sign a disclosure statement on marriage failure stats before being married. I'd also like to see other options treated with more open mindedness. How do we accomplish that ?

Well, societal change has already come to marriage. We call it "No Fault Divorce." Recently, there's been some important work in the courts to make divorce more fair and have partners examined less by gender (as such, joint custody is now the norm by FAR, statistically, alimony is almost always determined solely by income not gender, etc; stats reflect this). Prenups are more common today. Lots has changed.

The fact that most marriages still remain monogamous has more to do with who chooses to get married and why people choose to marry these days (typically for 'love'), I'd say. I'm all for removing taboos about it, but I don't think people turning to open marriages after their marriages are failing helps stave off taboos. If anything, it invites them and invites the criticism that open marriages lead to divorce (the marriage was already failing, so divorce is more likely) and/or are a byproduct of failure in the main relationship. I would not view someone who wanted an open marriage as a potential partner myself, but I don't think anything is wrong if 2 partners mutually agree at the start of their marriage on that.

July 3, 2012

Purpose of marriage: Absolutely. Kids. Kids need to feel safe, they need structure, they need love and attention. That's a fixed and rigid need, and a responsibility I'm quite serious about. What kind of example do I set for my kids if they watch me shrivel up emotionally and deny my needs for a decade ?

I will never understand this mentality. Do people honestly think their children give a rat's behind that they're not getting laid? Heck no!!!! It's likely that they're not even aware of it. And given the choice, I'd think most kids would be glad their parents weren't doing it, because EW GROSS.

Your kids don't care about your needs. They care about their own needs. That's why THEY are children and YOU are the adult. So please don't play like you'd be doing this "for the kids."

July 3, 2012

Here's a really simple question, NewThoughts. How much time do you and your wife spend together on a regular basis without the kids? Date nights?

I mention because for me as a woman, the ability to spend some amount of unstructured time together with my partner, not necessarily (but possibly) doing anything as a goal, seems to me to be the best way to maintain intimacy. I have noticed that after a string of days of both of us busy with kids (his and mine) and work and stuff around the house that I will start feeling the intimacy/emotional connection fading. However it comes back full force if we have a chance to spend time (without kids) together. Time not just spend on sex but on just "hanging out."

I really think this is soooo important and it's not just about quality it really is about quantity (up to a point). The best mind-blowing sex or most valued present would not restore intimacy if immediately afterwards it's back to focusing on chores, job, etc. There is a minimum amount of one-one time needed to restore and maintain intimacy. I believe I read somewhere it's at least an hour a day. Do you spend this amount of time with your wife that isn't focused on household stuff or with kids? And date nights need to be on a regular basis, not a "special" thing. Think of all the time you spent together as a couple when dating (and there were no kids). Compare that to now. What is the difference?

July 3, 2012

Try open marriage if you and your wife both WANT this. Or get a divorce.

You do express yourself in a way that portrays you as very self centered and not interested in nurturing a RELATIONSHIP at all - just "give to get" your own needs met.

All this talk about your wish for "intimacy" - your concept of "intimacy" is highly unlikely to be fulfilled via swinging or other sexual encounters. If you want to have a deep emotional connection which includes sex with a person or multiple people (polyamory) and it's not happening with your wife, then go ahead and divorce. She would probably love to have a relationship like that herself.

Your "revelations" about the state of marriage … sorry, but lame. I am over 50 years old and when I was a little kid, I observed the "Summer of Love" from a distance. The truth resonated with me - I didn't HAVE to get married; I didn't HAVE to have a "traditional" marriage if I did marry. I had all kinds of choices. I went into a traditional marriage with my eyes wide open, freely choosing this path from a variety of paths available.

The institution of marriage has changed profoundly and continuously since it began, whenever that was. It's not suddenly changing now. "WE" don't need to band together to increase awareness of this. Seems like you need to do some of this on your own, though.

July 4, 2012

OP,

you mention that you have children. Do any of your children have issues above and beyond the "norm"? I'm asking because, speaking from experience, having a child with issues can be very draining on a marriage, often especially for the wife ( who is often the primary caregiver)...

I know it may sound like an excuse, but sometimes , in this type of situation, the wife ( or husband) may feel like they are giving everything they've got to their child who really does need it. This is exacerbated when the parent(s) have little or no time away for themself(ves) , especially time away as a couple ( I'm not talking about time in the bedroom with the door closed:laugh:)...

Time away from the house, with your children in the care of a qualified sitter can be a wonderful thing...but it can be hard for many parents of kids with issues to do that...it's hard to trust your child to be in the care of someone else...

Unfortunate, many marriages n this situation just don't make it.

July 5, 2012

Thanks, HHC. Glad to hear about your success. Can you share more about how you navigated that ?

My husband has been sick for a very long time. medication and general well being has/had resulted in lack of sex drive and depression. I reached a point where I found myself looking elsewhere and i didn't like it. I sat him down and spoke to him about it and told him that I was feeling undesired and he wasn't putting the effort in and I needed that for my life to feel fulfilled and for me to feel happy and secure.

We originally agreed that I could do what I could with men (always been in place I can do whatever I wanted with women) as long as it didn't take away from us as a couple, and sex was not allowed.

He said that he obviously wasn't in a position to give me what i wanted and had given up my sexuality for years. I had initiated and had been rejected. I had tried and been told to leave him alone. etc etc.

I found a guy who made me feel sexy and desired and at one point my husband told me all bets were off and sex was on the table. So I did.

- how did you handle the discussion initially, or how do you wish you had handled it ?

It was a difficult discussion, but I simply told him what I needed and when he said he couldn't give it to me I told him that I needed it, even if he couldn't and what were we going to do.

I thought he was in a position to agree because he agreed. Looking back he was still very depressed and felt like if he said no I would anyway, or I would resent him. He felt scared and agreed because he felt like he was backed into a corner.

At one point he asked me to stop and I didn't. And for this I will forever feel guilt over and regret. That was the agreement, if it impacted us, it was to stop and I didn't

- what sort of rules or guidelines did you find to be important for sustainability ?

My husband didn't want to know anything, unless he asked. He didn't want me offering up information. So even though I felt like I was hiding stuff if I didn't tell him I needed to learn to shut my mouth unless he asked.

If there was any doubt for jealousy from either party you need to stop. I don't care what they say, if their actions and words don't match up they're not okay.

Make the outside fun complements the relationship you have with your spouse, not replace.

Regularly check in with each other to see how each other is feeling and what they need that they feel they're not getting.

I would also suggest seeing a professional. This way you can both handle the situation with support. Friends and family won't exactly understand, but most professionals are just in it for your relationship to succeed. How it succeeds and the things you do to make it work isn't really their concern.

But most of all don't ignore your spouse when they feel insecure. Don't continue if you can see they're hurting. Don't be selfish. I told my husband when he asked me to stop if I wasn't selfish for jut a bit I would resent him and our marriage might actually end. That was so wrong I can't even begin to imagine. I knew if I did it I would be able to be a better wife to him, but I should never have put my feelings over his. That's not how a marriage is suppose to work.

Funnily enough though, I've stopped sleeping with that guy and our relationship is even stronger now than before and we are both actually more secure in our marriage. He's not in a position where he is comfortable with me having sex with another man, but he may and when he is he will tell me. I will never ask him for that permission again. That's his to give, not mine to ask.

And if he never says it's okay again that is okay. He still allows me to flirt with the concept of an open marriage and to an extent we do, just at the moment sex is not allowed and that's okay. He's already doing so much to make sure I feel complete. And as long as I keep putting that much effort into him we will work.

July 5, 2012

Just to add, not that it might matter, but I have always been over sexual. I'm an extrovert and he's an introvert. I'm a exhibitionist, he is a wall flower. I've always been who I am from day one. We didn't end up where we are just because he rejected me for a long time. That's the wrong reason to look elsewhere

July 5, 2012

OP, you might find this thread by JamesM to be a good read.

If you are 'considering other options', it requires renegotiating the marital contract in a mutually agreeable and satisfying way. You're partners. Equal partners. Good luck.

July 5, 2012

Yes, I did. So they discussed it. Nothing sexier than having some guy whine about you not being turned on for 5 years, rather than going to the effort to physically turn you on.

I'm with you on this one Jane. I've had more than a few male friends share their complaints to me about their wife's lack of interest in sex. Almost every situation is the same - he never touches her unless he wants to get laid (in some cases, he's never even nice to her unless he wants to get laid). Rather than figure out the problem and fix it, they bitch and whine until she gives in. She *is* just laying there an tolerating it, because she knows during his 3 minute performance, he won't do a damn thing to show he even knows she's there, much less anything to try to make it a pleasant experience for her. It's always *her* problem and they wonder why she won't do anything about it.

Eventually though, it gets to the point where the guy probably couldn't do anything to fix it. It goes on for so long that if he does start to do the right things, she's too repulsed by him to respond.

July 5, 2012

NT,

Have you ever asked your W how she would feel about an open marriage?

The reason I ask is this. Your W has made it clear this is your "personal problem" which is shorthand for: "I do not care if this is making you miserable"

The real question that you have to ask yourself is actually even simpler: Is it acceptable for my W to demand that I remain celibate for the rest of my life? Alternatively you could ask her "do you think it is fair to demand I remain celibate for the duration of our marriage/our life?"

That's it. Just ask her that one question. And if her response is that she is not demanding celibacy and that she is "willing to have sex with you" I would have to disagree. Because when she lies there - radiating a "hurry up an finish" vibe - she is using body language to silently but blatantly reject you.

But I don't think she has to worry because somehow, you have allowed her to remove your sense of "self". You have enabled her to modify your "self perception" such that YOU don't really exist as a distinct person with wants, needs and hopes. Instead you are there to:

- Co-parent the children and

- Fund her current lifestyle so she doesn't have to worry about money

I don't say that lightly. I only mention it because once that happens, people become increasingly uncomfortable saying things like: It is not acceptable for you to demand that I remain celibate while simultaneously meeting everyone else's needs.

And the way that discomfort expresses itself is very consistent:

1. Why can't society change so that I can claim that what I want is totally normal? This is driven by a desire for group approval of what you wish to do.

2. I have to do this for the kids.

BTW - (2) is a valid point. You are setting a bad example of what a loving / healthy marriage is.

There is a way to have this conversation with your W. A script you can follow. But using that script effectively requires that you first relearn to see yourself as a person worthy of independent needs. Someone who has the RIGHT and the resolve to define and enforce boundaries such as: I will not allow anyone to demand a lifetime of celibacy from me.

Once you have that sense of self, happy to share the script because you will be prepared for, and accepting of her response whether it is:

- If you do that, I will divorce you and take the kids to a far away place

- You can do that if you want to - I don't care (while her tone is saying the opposite)

- I really think that is the only fair option for you

Thanks, ALL, for the comments and ideas. All of them. Every relationship of more than a few years is a complicated interwoven story. Yours too !

A few comments on the more common marital diagnostic questions:
- it's not really the sex, per se, but the whole package of intimacy. When intimacy works, it creates a virtuous cycle of emotional support that beats any artificial drug. I used to have that with my wife, now I don't, and I've tried everything I know to do. House chores, special gifts, weekend getaways, making her dinner, passionate forceful kisses and gentle nibbles. Everything. I can't figure out how to get it back. After years of mental anguish, I actually find it feels better to just accept it and start looking at other options.

CT/MT - my wife sees this issue as entirely my personal problem. Sure, shed go to therapy with me if I made an issue of it just like she's willing to give me duty sex. I don't want either of those. I want the explicit honest emotional exchange that I call intimacy.

Purpose of marriage: Absolutely. Kids. Kids need to feel safe, they need structure, they need love and attention. That's a fixed and rigid need, and a responsibility I'm quite serious about. What kind of example do I set for my kids if they watch me shrivel up emotionally and deny my needs for a decade ? That's one of my motivators to start looking at other options.

So, what's next for me ? Well, for me, I want to explore the option of an open or flexible marriage before I look at the divorce option. I've got too much invested (Inc a couple great kids) to ditch the whole relationship.

What's next for ALL of us ?
First of all, when do we start talking honestly about marriage for what it is: a failing social structure. Societal change is always scary ( remember the abolition of slavery, womens rights, no taxation without representation, etc). That's what I'm going to do. We literally have more factual disclosure on credit card applications, then in the marriage process. I'd like to see all couples sign a disclosure statement on marriage failure stats before being married. I'd also like to see other options treated with more open mindedness. How do we accomplish that ?

Edited July 5, 2012 by mem11363

July 5, 2012

So,

This is very good. I think that this is often the basis for an initial disconnect between spouses. And I also believe that once the W gets fed up and begins to routinely reject her H a whole new dynamic emerges:

- The sexually starved H gets turned on in a big way whenever he touches his W. Whether or not he gropes or tries to make it sexual - she can feel his desire. At this point, assuming he doesn't try to turn it into a sexual encounter, it is solely up to her to decide whether he is making a good faith effort to change, or is only doing it "because she is forcing him via starvation". MANY wives choose to see it as the latter, and cling to resentment. This is toxic to the marriage, but far more so to the spouse being rejected.

- An angry/resentful W may get some sense of satisfaction by rejecting his requests, since he couldn't be bothered with hers in the past. This is understandable short term - but is sadistic to do to someone long term.

- Under the pressure of a sexless marriage, most men become more like themselves. The beta's become even more conflict avoidant - a big turn off. And the alpha's get louder and more aggressive, a different type of turn off.

- And this is why most sexless marriages don't recover. Some of them do - often when the HD partner either leaves/threatens to D or gets caught in an affair.

I'm with you on this one Jane. I've had more than a few male friends share their complaints to me about their wife's lack of interest in sex. Almost every situation is the same - he never touches her unless he wants to get laid (in some cases, he's never even nice to her unless he wants to get laid). Rather than figure out the problem and fix it, they bitch and whine until she gives in. She *is* just laying there an tolerating it, because she knows during his 3 minute performance, he won't do a damn thing to show he even knows she's there, much less anything to try to make it a pleasant experience for her. It's always *her* problem and they wonder why she won't do anything about it.

Eventually though, it gets to the point where the guy probably couldn't do anything to fix it. It goes on for so long that if he does start to do the right things, she's too repulsed by him to respond.

July 6, 2012

NT,
Have you ever asked your W how she would feel about an open marriage?

The reason I ask is this. Your W has made it clear this is your "personal problem" which is shorthand for: "I do not care if this is making you miserable"

The real question that you have to ask yourself is actually even simpler: Is it acceptable for my W to demand that I remain celibate for the rest of my life? Alternatively you could ask her "do you think it is fair to demand I remain celibate for the duration of our marriage/our life?"

That's it. Just ask her that one question. And if her response is that she is not demanding celibacy and that she is "willing to have sex with you" I would have to disagree. Because when she lies there - radiating a "hurry up an finish" vibe - she is using body language to silently but blatantly reject you.

But I don't think she has to worry because somehow, you have allowed her to remove your sense of "self". You have enabled her to modify your "self perception" such that YOU don't really exist as a distinct person with wants, needs and hopes. Instead you are there to:
- Co-parent the children and
- Fund her current lifestyle so she doesn't have to worry about money

I don't say that lightly. I only mention it because once that happens, people become increasingly uncomfortable saying things like: It is not acceptable for you to demand that I remain celibate while simultaneously meeting everyone else's needs.

And the way that discomfort expresses itself is very consistent:
1. Why can't society change so that I can claim that what I want is totally normal? This is driven by a desire for group approval of what you wish to do.
2. I have to do this for the kids.

BTW - (2) is a valid point. You are setting a bad example of what a loving / healthy marriage is.

There is a way to have this conversation with your W. A script you can follow. But using that script effectively requires that you first relearn to see yourself as a person worthy of independent needs. Someone who has the RIGHT and the resolve to define and enforce boundaries such as: I will not allow anyone to demand a lifetime of celibacy from me.

Once you have that sense of self, happy to share the script because you will be prepared for, and accepting of her response whether it is:
- If you do that, I will divorce you and take the kids to a far away place
- You can do that if you want to - I don't care (while her tone is saying the opposite)
- I really think that is the only fair option for you

Wow, Mem11363. That was a pretty good analysis from afar, with little info. Bravo.

For me personally: Had the first step into the "open marriage" discussion just yesterday. The one piece of advice from all the commenters which was really helpful was that whatever I said should feel "vulnerable", and it very much did. My wife learned a few things about me that she didn't know, despite knowing each other for over 13yr (married 10yr). The open marriage idea did come up, but I did not try to lock in any specific agreement. I was just relieved to have options on the table. I just kept focused on the important things which were kids, her needs/wants, and my needs/wants....and said, 'look, if we start down that road, we'll need to go slow, carefully discuss rules/limits/dangers, and it would need to be of a temporary/trial nature. That's as far as we went on that subject. Overall, we had the most amazing and positive conversation as we'd both felt we'd reached some sort of deadend in our discussions.

So, really that's just a new chapter in our relationship, which I hope will be a long book. Thanks to all for the ideas/thoughts. Even the really negative allegations were useful to think through in examining my own motivations (as best I am able), even if not entirely on target. :-)

For ALL of us: The marital concept in our culture is radically over-simplified, too rigid, over-hyped as a grand solution, and it is failing. If we simply would become more flexible in our views, and MUCH MORE HONEST in disclosure of risks/costs to those getting married the first time, I think we could save a lot of people from a lot of mental anguish. That, and $4, will get you a latte, but its still true !

QUESTION: HOW MANY OF YOU WOULD SUPPORT A MANDATORY STANDARDIZED DISCLOSURE OF MARRIAGE STATISTICS, RISKS & COSTS, AND EXPECTED BENEFITS TO THOSE CONSIDERING TO TAKE THE LEAP FOR THE FIRST TIME ?

July 6, 2012

You are so right, OliveOyl. Thanks for the comment. The hang out time is really critical for connection for me. That was one of the things we realized in our discussion (see above)...my need/desire for hang out time is higher than hers for some reasons I wont belabor here, but your point is taken and valued ! Thanks !

Here's a really simple question, NewThoughts. How much time do you and your wife spend together on a regular basis without the kids? Date nights?

I mention because for me as a woman, the ability to spend some amount of unstructured time together with my partner, not necessarily (but possibly) doing anything as a goal, seems to me to be the best way to maintain intimacy. I have noticed that after a string of days of both of us busy with kids (his and mine) and work and stuff around the house that I will start feeling the intimacy/emotional connection fading. However it comes back full force if we have a chance to spend time (without kids) together. Time not just spend on sex but on just "hanging out."

I really think this is soooo important and it's not just about quality it really is about quantity (up to a point). The best mind-blowing sex or most valued present would not restore intimacy if immediately afterwards it's back to focusing on chores, job, etc. There is a minimum amount of one-one time needed to restore and maintain intimacy. I believe I read somewhere it's at least an hour a day. Do you spend this amount of time with your wife that isn't focused on household stuff or with kids? And date nights need to be on a regular basis, not a "special" thing. Think of all the time you spent together as a couple when dating (and there were no kids). Compare that to now. What is the difference?

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Marriage: A Rigid Concept In a Dynamic World. Why not consider other options ?

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