Author Leopard Posted July 2, 2012 Author Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) It isn't a 'great R in all other aspects' if you can't even be honest with your partner without it causing your R to descend into the flames. So you are admitting here that a man bases his entire relationships value on whether or not he can make a woman orgasm. If you think my confession about this (which has happened before) will make the relationship fail, then you are only confirming that men need a woman to orgasm for the relationship to work. If I can't orgasm then what am I supposed to do? Be single for the rest of my life? I wanted to comment on your bolded statement... They both share the responsibility here... He took it personally when she was unable to achieve orgasm with him. She is struggling to understand her own sexuality. Happens to millions of couples every day. My sense is that they will find a way to figure it out. I really appreciate all of your understanding throughout this thread, so thank you RedRobin And if she needs to lie to prevent everything from going to hell in a handbasket, well, clearly the R is NOT going well on all other fronts. So you're saying just because he doesn't know I can't orgasm means the entire relationship is horrible? That couldn't be farther from the truth. even how defensive male posters were about it made me realise how much of their egos were involved in their 100% self certainty in their ability to please a woman. once you start a pattern of faking, it's not an easy thing to just fix. you can't just one day stop lying and expect there not to be other problems that arise from that. it's almost like you need to fade it out, while instigating some other positive changes. All of this. Exactly. My recommendation is that she phase in some time where she is pleasuring herself, and he watches. Actually I feel uncomfortable doing that too. Maybe that factors into everything. and this^^^^^^^^ I Just did not want to hurt my guys feelings, I loved the sex without an orgasm, and did not want to burden the early stages of a relationship with a concept he is foreign with.....That some girls cannot orgasm through sex. Exactly. And once you get emotionally involved, you can't just confess that you lied the entire time. What a way to take it to the next step. Besides, if he knew you couldn't orgasm the entire time, you wouldn't have even gotten to the emotional part. It's like I said before, if you start dating a guy and having sex with him, if the sex is aweful and he doesn't feel good about it (aka not making a woman orgasm) then he will stop dating the girl. This is an automatic halt. Like another poster said, the fact that so many men are so defensive and offended (like Kaylan constantly calling me a liar) only shows even more how much a man's ego is based on if he can make a woman orgasm. A smart woman would never tell her man she can't orgasm with him. It's like a man telling his wife of many years that her cooking sucks. Will she want to cook for you after that? I don't think so. If a woman constantly told her man how she can't orgasm, constantly instruct him in bed and it doesn't work, masterbate more than they have sex... would the guy feel good? No, he wouldn't. Would he want to keep having sex with his woman knowing that he basically "fails" every time? No. He's going to want to feel good by making a woman orgasm...and if that's not his girlfriend, then eventually he will find someone else he feels good in bed with. After all, a sexual relationship dictates whether the entire relationship is good or not right Elswyth? Edited July 2, 2012 by Leopard
LittlePrince Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Women think they know when they are being looked at. 1
kaylan Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Lol @ OP still being in denial. ITS NOT ABOUT THE ORGASM. Your man doesnt turn you on at all, and you dont enjoy sex with him. No man OR woman would want their partner to feel that way about them.
Author Leopard Posted July 2, 2012 Author Posted July 2, 2012 True. But I can't find someone as great as him who is also good looking. So i'm choosing to settle for him, and i'm perfectly happy with settling with him. If I don't settle then i'll just be single for the rest of my life, because the kind of man that I actually want is very hard to find.
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 True. But I can't find someone as great as him who is also good looking. So i'm choosing to settle for him, and i'm perfectly happy with settling with him. If I don't settle then i'll just be single for the rest of my life, because the kind of man that I actually want is very hard to find. If I had a dime for every time I heard that and then.... ::six months later after breakup from that relationship:: "Oh my god I found the perfect guy!...he's everything I'm looking for!...he's smart, intelligent, good-looking..." Zzzzzzz... 1
Author Leopard Posted July 2, 2012 Author Posted July 2, 2012 Let's hope that will happen to me too! Although so far with all my exes it hasn't. Each one is better than the last...but never in looks. Actually, the better the person the worse the looks. That has been my experience. Does that make sense? Good looking people don't need great character to get a girl, but men that aren't that good looking have to try harder to get a girl so they are better men altogether? I think that's why there is such a discrepancy between looks and goodness when it comes to men (and women).
samsungxoxo Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 I've never faked it with my ex but he would get confused because I hardly ever made sounds. Unlike all the movies, where they show the woman screaming and being overy verbal during orgasm all the time, I was quiet the whole time. I guess if we don't scream, guys can also think you're not having an orgasm. 1
Ninjainpajamas Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 I've never faked it with my ex but he would get confused because I hardly ever made sounds. Unlike all the movies, where they show the woman screaming and being overy verbal during orgasm all the time, I was quiet the whole time. I guess if we don't scream, guys can also think you're not having an orgasm. Some girls scream like they're being burnt alive... Some girls moan/groan like a slumbering giant... Some girls just look like they're taking a quiet poo... It all depends!
Els Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 So you are admitting here that a man bases his entire relationships value on whether or not he can make a woman orgasm. If you think my confession about this (which has happened before) will make the relationship fail, then you are only confirming that men need a woman to orgasm for the relationship to work. Uh, have you even READ my posts? Nope, didn't think so. I have never said that. YOU insisted that as soon as you started being honest, your R started going down the drain, and you used that as the justification for your decision. If I can't orgasm then what am I supposed to do? Be single for the rest of my life? 1. Educate yourself about female orgasm and start trying things. Very few women are truly anorgasmic, but the majority of women need more than straight-up vaginal intercourse to orgasm. 2. Find a man who has the security and maturity to work through those with you instead of 'looking at other girls two weeks after you started being honest'. Seriously. I don't understand how you could say that your man did that and then in the same breath say that he has great character and compatibility. How is that even congruent??? Exactly. And once you get emotionally involved, you can't just confess that you lied the entire time. What a way to take it to the next step. Besides, if he knew you couldn't orgasm the entire time, you wouldn't have even gotten to the emotional part. So continuous faking is the way to get to the 'next step'? And the next and the next? It's like I said before, if you start dating a guy and having sex with him, if the sex is aweful and he doesn't feel good about it (aka not making a woman orgasm) then he will stop dating the girl. This is an automatic halt. Uh, no, just the men you know. Like another poster said, the fact that so many men are so defensive and offended (like Kaylan constantly calling me a liar) only shows even more how much a man's ego is based on if he can make a woman orgasm. Because you ARE a liar. Worse, you're a completely unapologetic liar. A smart woman would never tell her man she can't orgasm with him. It's like a man telling his wife of many years that her cooking sucks. Will she want to cook for you after that? I don't think so. A smart man, instead of letting it drag on for years, would have lovingly thanked his wife for the meal she prepared for him and offered to cook for her in return and hinted about teaching her, if he thinks her cooking 'sucks'. If a woman constantly told her man how she can't orgasm, constantly instruct him in bed and it doesn't work, masterbate more than they have sex... would the guy feel good? No, he wouldn't. Would he want to keep having sex with his woman knowing that he basically "fails" every time? No. He's going to want to feel good by making a woman orgasm...and if that's not his girlfriend, then eventually he will find someone else he feels good in bed with. After all, a sexual relationship dictates whether the entire relationship is good or not right Elswyth? Look, if you WANT, we could talk about methods in which couples learn to bring the woman to orgasm, how to constructively teach someone and learn about their sexual preferences, how to accommodate each other. Judging from all the little jibes you have given me, and the way in which you ignore anything that isn't complete justification of your decisions, you are simply not interested in talking about those or learning. Which is fine, if you were honest about it with the man you purport to love, but you aren't. But in the end, it's your life. I just feel sorry for your bf.
Els Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 this ^^^ xxoo.... what you're saying is great, but it's THEORY. RedRobin speaks REALITY. If a man feels emasculated, particularly in the bedroom, he will check out of the relationship. Speaking from experience, this is not true. Sure, some men are that way. But many others are mature, open-minded and sexually-educated enough to know that female orgasm is something that needs to be worked towards sometimes, not something that you just expect to automatically happen. Sure, I think most people, male or female, would be a little bummed when encountering problems. The immature either lie, ignore, or 'feel emasculated and check out of the R'. The mature learn to work with it, either by cooperation and practice to achieve the orgasm, or by accepting that their partner has difficulty orgasming but that it doesn't reflect on her love for him. I have a lot of trouble orgasming, especially with a new partner. Even oral is difficult without some investment in instruction and practice. I can't even imagine if vaginal intercourse was all I got. But with my current bf, we worked through it, tried lots of different stuff, and found ways. We're still finding new ways and working on old ones, but none of that would have been possible if all I had done was lie from the get-go. 1
fortyninethousand322 Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 I read an article today and it was really interesting. Why Women Fake Orgasms and How to Tell - Yahoo! Voices - voices.yahoo.com I know a lot of men won't admit to the fact that they have been with women who seldom actually had orgasms, because they think all the women they have been with actually came most of the time, but I want them to read this article. I was so relieved when I read this because it means i'm not the only one who does these things. That a lot of women also do them. Ladies, what is your take on this article? Do you do these things too? And if you have had orgasms before from a man, what does it feel like? I'd say the same is probably true the other way around. Some men probably fake too and the women don't know or can't tell.
LittlePrince Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 I'd say the same is probably true the other way around. Some men probably fake too and the women don't know or can't tell. For a woman the problem is more that he faked falling in love than a fake gasm. 1
RedRobin Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 True. But I can't find someone as great as him who is also good looking. So i'm choosing to settle for him, and i'm perfectly happy with settling with him. If I don't settle then i'll just be single for the rest of my life, because the kind of man that I actually want is very hard to find. Leopard, there are alot of people who think it must be the biggest 'crime' in the world to set your priorities a certain way and then 'settle'. Many of my friends and family 'settled' (if people want to use that word) for their HS sweetheart, or the one they met in college. Some found love at the brink of their fertility (but yes, only after deciding to 'settle' aka reassess priorities). Some never do. My observation? Most people's grandiose expectations mellow as they age and their other friends/family pair up with less than perfect people. They observe them having pretty darn good lives. Some of them think... WTF was I holding out all this time for again?? Or, they tell themselves they aren't 'settling'... when in reality, they know deep down they passed up much 'better' when they were younger in their quest for the ultimate state of perfection. So, I don't think you are going to get alot of support to 'settle' from a dating site where alot of people are single... and who probably really love being single... maybe in their mind, the person of their fantasy is right around the corner... Instead of 'settling' and just living a happy life with someone. *shrug* I agree with you that finding someone with good character is super hard to find. Now more than ever, because of our culture's emphasis on $$ and looks. So no... I will always encourage women to put character first, above absolutely everything else. Money and looks? Could go poof in a heartbeat. See it happen all of the time. Character? That's the one thing that stays constant. This other issue though... you will have to find a way to resolve. It will eat at you over time. I understand very much the need, no, the requirement, to ease your orgasm discussions/issues into your relationship gently. This is how I view it. I'm not a sex therapist, but I do benefit a great deal from having life-long friends and family who are very open about sexual matters... we talk frankly about these things when problems arise. Always have. If you can manage it financially, you might try to find a LICENSED sex therapist (along the lines of Dr. Ruth), or pick up some literature along those lines. The first thing, when you are trying to overcome an aversion, break a bad habit, or learn a new skill, is to make each and every interaction a positive one. While you are learning this new skill, you will likely need to stop short of your intended goal (whatever it is) many times in order to avoid frustration or to keep it positive. As long as you are making baby steps toward that goal, you will get there. If you need to, keep a journal of your progress so that you can remind yourself how far you've come. In many ways, this is really no different than a weight loss goal, or achieving a diploma in something. Just because it is 'easy' for someone else, doesn't make you a bad person. Everyone has something they are working on... 1
RedRobin Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 If I had a dime for every time I heard that and then.... ::six months later after breakup from that relationship:: "Oh my god I found the perfect guy!...he's everything I'm looking for!...he's smart, intelligent, good-looking..." Zzzzzzz... riiight.... and six months after THAT, they are on LS posting about what a jerk he was.... ha ha. 1
LittlePrince Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 riiight.... and six months after THAT, they are on LS posting about what a jerk he was.... ha ha. But without them where else would I get my stories? Soaps just don't make me tingle anymore like they use to.
RedRobin Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 1. Educate yourself about female orgasm and start trying things. Very few women are truly anorgasmic, but the majority of women need more than straight-up vaginal intercourse to orgasm. I agree with this... She kinda is with this thread though. I think she has a point about men's egos though. Sucks. But she does. 2. Find a man who has the security and maturity to work through those with you instead of 'looking at other girls two weeks after you started being honest'. Seriously. I don't understand how you could say that your man did that and then in the same breath say that he has great character and compatibility. How is that even congruent??? That was just her fear talking, most likely. Her fear of being dumped if she opened up to him. It is not an irrational fear though, at all. I think the OP is been kind of bullied here, TBH. Bullied into being orgasm focused and to 'out' herself as some horrible non-orgasmic person or risk being tarred and feathered by the sex-mob. Take a look at this thread. It takes YEARS for men to pull their heads out of their *sses when it comes to women's sexuality. And that is usually through... ta da... having a significant LTR with one.... not surprisingly. Even then, some of them still don't get it. I won't be naming names... Sorry, Elswyth... you are no sage of ancient wisdom either Miss 20-something. You and Kaylan can go have a party with yourselves... 1
RedRobin Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 But without them where else would I get my stories? Soaps just don't make me tingle anymore like they use to. I know, right?!!
Els Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 I agree with this... She kinda is with this thread though. I think she has a point about men's egos though. Sucks. But she does. That was just her fear talking, most likely. Her fear of being dumped if she opened up to him. Umm... no. She explicitly stated that two weeks after she started being honest he was losing interest and 'looking at other women'. It's on the front page of this thread. Whether or not he actually was or she was just imagining it is a different story, but either way it doesn't bode well for the 'other aspects of their relationship'. It is not an irrational fear though, at all. I think the OP is been kind of bullied here, TBH. Bullied into being orgasm focused and to 'out' herself as some horrible non-orgasmic person or risk being tarred and feathered by the sex-mob. Take a look at this thread. It takes YEARS for men to pull their heads out of their *sses when it comes to women's sexuality. And that is usually through... ta da... having a significant LTR with one.... not surprisingly. Even then, some of them still don't get it. I won't be naming names... So, do you think a man who has his head in his ass when it comes to women's sexuality is worth staying with? And, more importantly, LYING to stay with? Sorry, Elswyth... you are no sage of ancient wisdom either Miss 20-something. You and Kaylan can go have a party with yourselves... Utterly unnecessary personal remark and a pathetic attempt at waiving all logic and genuine discussion, IMO. Age does not necessarily beget worthwhile experience, nor does it beget maturity. Even if you feel it does, one of the people who shares my views on this thread, xxoo, has far more experience in LTRs and marriage than you and the OP, and she is most certainly not in her 20s. What unrelated barbs have you to say to her about that, hmm? 1
RedRobin Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) So, do you think a man who has his head in his ass when it comes to women's sexuality is worth staying with? And, more importantly, LYING to stay with? I don't think men are necessarily 'bad' for having their heads up their *sses about it. That is how they are raised and how our culture trains them. She will have to search pretty far and wide to find a man who will willingly help her out with this... one with good character that is. I'm sure there are no shortage of older men (even much older men) who would happily 'school her' in this area... but take advantage of her in other ways... or she'd be very incompatible with as a partner. That's not a path I'd encourage. Not at all. Not only that... in trying to find a man to help her out, she'd be making the relationship all about SEX and not about character or other things that I still think are more important... and then she's back to square one. So, no. Not helpful. This is why I recommended she seek out a sex therapist or do some reading. I'm far from encouraging her from giving up on her BF though. He's just immature. I've given her some suggestions on how to work through it. Even if you feel it does, one of the people who shares my views on this thread, xxoo, has far more experience in LTRs and marriage than you and the OP, and she is most certainly not in her 20s. What unrelated barbs have you to say to her about that, hmm? Actually, xxoo was one of a small handful of people who wasn't encouraging her to throw the baby out with the bathwater, seemed to empathize with her plight a bit... while also offering helpful suggestions. Hmm... wonder why that is? Experience maybe? Hmmm... I have not encouraged her to keep lying. Nor do I think the solution is to dump her BF. Nor do I think her issues are tied to her level of attraction to him. There is something else going on that dumping him is not going to fix. I'm going to have to take her word that her BF is a good person... and that she will find a way to work through this with him... slowly and patiently. Edited July 2, 2012 by RedRobin
Els Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 (edited) I don't think men are necessarily 'bad' for having their heads up their *sses about it. That is how they are raised and how our culture trains them. She will have to search pretty far and wide to find a man who will willingly help her out with this... one with good character that is. I'm sure there are no shortage of older men (even much older men) who would happily 'school her' in this area... but take advantage of her in other ways... or she'd be very incompatible with as a partner. That's not a path I'd encourage. Not at all. Not only that... in trying to find a man to help her out, she'd be making the relationship all about SEX and not about character or other things that I still think are more important... and then she's back to square one. So, no. Not helpful. This is why I recommended she seek out a sex therapist or do some reading. And this is also why I have recommended that she educate herself on female orgasm, and take the first step to working with her partner by being honest with him. A partner being willing to work things through with you doesn't necessarily make a R all about sex. An R does not have to be either completely about SEX or completely horrible in the sexual aspect, for chrissakes. There actually are relationships that are compatible in all important aspects, believe it or not - the key to being in one is being honest about what you are and what you want. I'm far from encouraging her from giving up on her BF though. He's just immature. I've given her some suggestions on how to work through it. As have I, if you have noticed. Actually, xxoo was one of a small handful of people who wasn't encouraging her to throw the baby out with the bathwater, seemed to empathize with her plight a bit... while also offering helpful suggestions. Hmm... wonder why that is? Experience maybe? Hmmm... I have not encouraged her to keep lying. Nor do I think the solution is to dump her BF. Nor do I think her issues are tied to her level of attraction to him. There is something else going on that dumping him is not going to fix. I'm going to have to take her word that her BF is a good person... and that she will find a way to work through this with him... slowly and patiently. I'm not sure if you have trouble reading my posts or have confused me with another poster, but your attacks on me are completely false, out of the blue, and baseless. I have not said or done half of the things you have mentioned in your responses to me - and you seem to conveniently ignore my repeated comments that I feel it is her prerogative to choose an orgasmless R if she wishes, on proviso that nobody is being deceived. Perhaps you might like to read my initial post in this thread again. You also keep throwing out red herrings about character trumping sexual ability... something that I have mentioned not once, but TWICE, that I agree with. However, you seem to miss the point that someone who is genuinely of good character and compatible does not require lying to maintain a relationship with, nor does he require a woman he is with to continuously fake orgasm to prevent him from straying. Here is xxoo's response to you, that you had not responded to in favour of resuming your sniping on me: If they loved each other, and enjoyed sex together, I don't see why a man wouldn't stay with a woman who couldn't orgasm. It would take a man and relationship with a lot of security and maturity, but is he such a great guy (as argued), or the relationship so great, if that security and maturity is absent? Also, you will note that ALL helpful suggestions have been conveniently disregarded by the OP. She has not discussed a single thing that she intends to change about the current state of things, does not regret her lying or plan on changing that anytime in the near future, and either ignores or attacks suggestions of such. Edited July 2, 2012 by Elswyth 1
RedRobin Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 no, Elswyth, the suggestions have not been disregarded... She has 'liked' the posts where people have made some effort to understand her situation and her general difficulty achieving orgasm. I believe she 'liked' both xxoo's and Ninja's posts... neither have encouraged lying. She HAS tuned out the 'don't settle' crowd, for the most part. And the ones where they think she should 'confess' her 'sin' of having difficult orgasms.... or shove it down his throat or dump him. Yea, she seems to have tuned those out. If I were her, I might have told all of you to f*ck off long ago... As it is, I've been on both sides of her dilemma (and yours too... but I won't tell you how). Honesty can be a tricky thing. Too much, and it is deemed insensitive and hurtful. Too little, and the relationship dies a slow death. It's a balance. Once upon a time, I was a big believer in 'radical honesty'... I've learned over time that not everyone wants 'radical' honesty... for starters... I also learned that being 'radically' honest can sometimes do more harm than good. Patience... Patience... that's a better path... one I'm still learning. 1
LittlePrince Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 And then after awhile you find there is no right path. There was never a path. You are just free fallin.
Els Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Again, you are completely misrepresenting my posts, RR, and, I believe, completely misunderstanding the OP's intent as well, perhaps because you personally identify with her (just a hunch). From what I see, the OP has not taken up a single helpful suggestion. The fact that some of the posts that she 'liked' happened to contain both helpful suggestions and sympathy does not necessarily mean that she cared about the suggestions. There are plenty of helpful suggestions in this thread, from a wide variety of viewpoints, if one cares to look. The majority of posters did not start being hostile towards the OP until she started being unduly hostile towards them. Regardless, I don't think it's of any use for us to continue discussing this. You perpetually miss the point of my posts in your zeal to defend the OP, and continuing henceforth is only going to serve to derail this thread. I will happily give the OP advice about how to work on attaining orgasm, if she is interested in talking about it, but otherwise I'm not going to continue this fruitless exchange of words.
RedRobin Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 Here is xxoo's response to you, that you had not responded to in favour of resuming your sniping on me I did respond to that. I said the emotional connection likely had to be developed first before a man would be willing to take that on. ... and that it would be a VERY rare man who would knowingly go into that situation without a significant emotional connection being developed first. So, I posited the question... what is she supposed to do? Be celibate? I guess the answer for the 'radical honesty' crowd must be yes. :rolleyes:
LittlePrince Posted July 2, 2012 Posted July 2, 2012 fruitless exchange of words. That should be LS's new tagline rather than interpersonal relationship center. 4
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