verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 sounds like you're trying way too hard. Care less. Be your self. Have fun at the events, esp in the context of meeting boys. You don't need anyone's approval. Ever. If they don't like you how you are eff em' Well when you are trying to organize events, or are part of a Con committee, or are at a tournament, you NEED to be heard. I can't just "care less." By not being heard, I am excluded, and sometimes that's at the detriment of whatever cause I'm championing. It's also hard to have fun at a tournament if guys won't acknowledge your existence. Paying money to play, and then having people refuse to play with you just because you're an ugly female, is not my definition of fun. In the nerd world, a woman has value one of two ways: she's hot, or she's an uber-nerd. If you are anything else, you are deserving of scorn and ignored/mocked.
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 When I'm at comic shops and nerding events, I am constantly having to prove how nerdy I am, and the guys are not nice to me until I have won their approval. I've had guys try that with me as well (and nerdy women, frankly) who pull the Alpha Nerd rank. I don't think the way you look makes one immune to it. But one way to get around it, I promise you (I have seen attractive and unattractive men and women alike do this) is by not caring who the Alpha Nerd is. If you sincerely don't care if you're taken seriously and are just having a good time, then the Alpha Nerds have no leverage and just lay off mostly. That instinct goes away. I will say that being a cute girl nerd will get you some extra perks, sure. (Not being taken seriously, though -- cute nerd girls aren't automatically accepted as serious nerds either, nor are cute nerd guys, actually.) But I see many average looking and even slovenly girls in comic stores, game stores, etc, who get along just fine with the guys in there without having to 'prove' themselves repeatedly. I think once one has the desire to be 'taken seriously,' others will naturally try to make you prove yourself. That doesn't just happen in nerd circles. At any rate, I know some female nerds who are far less attractive than you, V, and none of them have had guys refuse to play them in tourneys because they're ugly. That sounds like something a guy afraid to lose would say, maybe, but I can think of no other explanation. 2
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I've had guys try that with me as well (and nerdy women, frankly) who pull the Alpha Nerd rank. I don't think the way you look makes one immune to it. But one way to get around it, I promise you (I have seen attractive and unattractive men and women alike do this) is by not caring who the Alpha Nerd is. If you sincerely don't care if you're taken seriously and are just having a good time, then the Alpha Nerds have no leverage and just lay off mostly. That instinct goes away. I will say that being a cute girl nerd will get you some extra perks, sure. (Not being taken seriously, though -- cute nerd girls aren't automatically accepted as serious nerds either, nor are cute nerd guys, actually.) But I see many average looking and even slovenly girls in comic stores, game stores, etc, who get along just fine with the guys in there without having to 'prove' themselves repeatedly. My observation has been those slovenly girls proved themselves at some point, and thus were initiated into the club. And yeah, you could ignore the need to Alpha Nerd... IF you don't need them to pay attention to you. If you can choose to ignore them. But if you're new to a social group, or as I discussed previously, working with them on some sort of committee, then you're stuck. You can't just ignore them-you need their approval to get traction. And again, kind of hard to have a good time when I pay money to play in a tournament, and then get ignored because my nerdy level isn't enough to make up for my ugliness.
seachangeoflove Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Well when you are trying to organize events, or are part of a Con committee, or are at a tournament, you NEED to be heard. I can't just "care less." By not being heard, I am excluded, and sometimes that's at the detriment of whatever cause I'm championing. It's also hard to have fun at a tournament if guys won't acknowledge your existence. Paying money to play, and then having people refuse to play with you just because you're an ugly female, is not my definition of fun. In the nerd world, a woman has value one of two ways: she's hot, or she's an uber-nerd. If you are anything else, you are deserving of scorn and ignored/mocked. are you sure you are being treated this way because of your appearance? yes, there are some *******s in the world who will discredit you as a human being if they don't find you smokin' hot. Those men are in the minority and most are not that way. Are you sure it's not something in your behavior that is allowing them to believe it is ok to treat you as such?
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Well when you are trying to organize events, or are part of a Con committee, or are at a tournament, you NEED to be heard. I can't just "care less." By not being heard, I am excluded, and sometimes that's at the detriment of whatever cause I'm championing. It's also hard to have fun at a tournament if guys won't acknowledge your existence. Paying money to play, and then having people refuse to play with you just because you're an ugly female, is not my definition of fun. In the nerd world, a woman has value one of two ways: she's hot, or she's an uber-nerd. If you are anything else, you are deserving of scorn and ignored/mocked. My experience has been that some men do have a problem with female authority and competence in general, especially in traditionally male-dominated fields, but I've been to a number of tourneys and I've never seen anyone genuinely refuse to play a girl because she was ugly. TBH, it sounds more like a defensive attempt by an immature guy who is afraid of 'losing face' if he loses to a girl, so he makes up an excuse for it, attacking that which he perceives you are most insecure about. With such a guy, it would not have made a jot of a difference even if you'd been Megan Fox, except perhaps that he would have attacked something else because he would have sensed that no comments about your appearance would faze you. If someone refused to play me at a tournament, I would just inform the referee and get a walkover. People can't refuse to play their designated opponents without consequences, really. Regardless, if you genuinely don't feel comfortable with male geeks, consider other interests instead. You're right, there's no point putting in money and effort when you aren't enjoying yourself. Yea, well, I've always said I'm more of a geek than a nerd, because although I'm socially marginalized, I don't really carry the nerdy interests. I'm into sports, beer, and rock music. Some adults my age probably hopped on WOW later. But when I was in undergrad I can honestly say I didn't know a single female who played PC games. Yeah, WoW definitely didn't exist when you were in college. No matter what people say about it, I think it was one of the pioneer games in encouraging female interest. I don't know any other mainstream game that has more female players than WoW.
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Those can't be the ONLY nerdy social groups in your area. I belong to a Nerds and Geeks type Meetup group, and almost everyone in it is not exactly a beauty queen or king, I hate to say. Plenty of the girls there love that group and are included without any Alpha Nerd! drama, no matter the range of looks. Truly. But it's not a group with a lot of intensity, and it fixates on a wide variety of nerd hobbies (i.e. No saying, X Nerdy Habit is so much better and nerdier than Y). I'll admit, V, that I don't do many tourneys. I've done a few, but I generally find them very competitive and Alpha Nerd in nature, in terms of the people in them (not all). I will say that being a cute nerd girl doesn't lead to any less need to 'prove' yourself to Alpha Nerds for the results you want, unless the result you want is simply a different kind of condescension. There are other pockets of nerd culture, where people don't feel the need to prove themselves, that I prefer and frequent. Very competitive people -- whether nerds or not -- grate on my nerves, personally. People who fixate on a singular nerdy hobby tend to be more Alpha about it, IMO, as they've tied much of their identity in with that singular hobby.
Feelsgoodman Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I know some posters are gonna hate me for going down this road, but I've found that to be accepted and treated well by the nerd community, girls either need to be: -good looking (then ANY sign of nerdiness is awesome) -able to Alpha Nerd anyone else I hang out almost exclusively in nerdy circles, and my observation has been that if a good-looking girl shows any inclination to nerd things, guys will bend over backwards to accommodate her. However, if she is average or, well, less good-looking, then a woman really has to fight to be heard. When I'm at comic shops and nerding events, I am constantly having to prove how nerdy I am, and the guys are not nice to me until I have won their approval. That's part of the privilege Dr. NL was talking about. I'm not sure if he discusses it in this article, but he's commented throughout his blog the emphasis male nerds place on female looks, much more so than even mainstream society. Have you considered getting mental help? Serious question. Based on this post alone, it seem that your lack of dating success should be the least of your worries.
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 are you sure you are being treated this way because of your appearance? yes, there are some *******s in the world who will discredit you as a human being if they don't find you smokin' hot. Those men are in the minority and most are not that way. Are you sure it's not something in your behavior that is allowing them to believe it is ok to treat you as such? *Sigh* I know no one believes it's ever my looks, because they aren't living in my body, and haven't experienced life as a truly ugly person (it's also why I wish I had the money to fly one or two of you out here to act as witnesses) but yes, it is my looks. Those can't be the ONLY nerdy social groups in your area. I belong to a Nerds and Geeks type Meetup group, and almost everyone in it is not exactly a beauty queen or king, I hate to say. Plenty of the girls there love that group and are included without any Alpha Nerd! drama, no matter the range of looks. Truly. But it's not a group with a lot of intensity, and it fixates on a wide variety of nerd hobbies (i.e. No saying, X Nerdy Habit is so much better and nerdier than Y). I'll admit, V, that I don't do many tourneys. I've done a few, but I generally find them very competitive and Alpha Nerd in nature, in terms of the people in them (not all). I will say that being a cute nerd girl doesn't lead to any less need to 'prove' yourself to Alpha Nerds for the results you want, unless the result you want is simply a different kind of condescension. There are other pockets of nerd culture, where people don't feel the need to prove themselves, that I prefer and frequent. Very competitive people -- whether nerds or not -- grate on my nerves, personally. Well, nerdy is one of those things that CAN be a little squishy to define. Your definition of nerdy has always seemed more academic in nature, than my definition, which is more social, pop-culture based. It might potentially be my area. I didn't realize it, but I apparently live in a very Hipster-centric city. There seems to be an overlap between the Nerds and the Hipsters, which may be partially where the Us-Them group mentality is coming from. My guess is it's the "wide range" of interests that saves the girls from being Alpha Nerded. I think, frankly, it also helps if you're not single. If you have a husband or a boyfriend also in the group, that seems to give you some protection. The girls I've seen been put to the Alpha Nerd test are predominantly single (or are just mute about their relationship status.)
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Have you considered getting mental help? Serious question. Based on this post alone, it seem that your lack of dating success should be the least of your worries. Not sure why I'm bothering to respond, but.... please, enlighten me as to what "mental problems" you assume I have based on my post.
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 What are your thoughts on my hypothesis behind the guy's words and my own observations, V?
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 What are your thoughts on my hypothesis behind the guy's words and my own observations, V? Which one, that guys are trying to save face, or that guys treat you well even though you look nerdy? Or something else that I missed? (I admit, I skimmed the first few pages.)
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 This one. (10 ch) My experience has been that some men do have a problem with female authority and competence in general, especially in traditionally male-dominated fields, but I've been to a number of tourneys and I've never seen anyone genuinely refuse to play a girl because she was ugly. TBH, it sounds more like a defensive attempt by an immature guy who is afraid of 'losing face' if he loses to a girl, so he makes up an excuse for it, attacking that which he perceives you are most insecure about. With such a guy, it would not have made a jot of a difference even if you'd been Megan Fox, except perhaps that he would have attacked something else because he would have sensed that no comments about your appearance would faze you. If someone refused to play me at a tournament, I would just inform the referee and get a walkover. People can't refuse to play their designated opponents without consequences, really.
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Well, nerdy is one of those things that CAN be a little squishy to define. Your definition of nerdy has always seemed more academic in nature, than my definition, which is more social, pop-culture based. The nerdy group I cited is all pop culture/interests based. They go watch Harry Potter, play Arkham Horror, etc. I guess we also go to cultural events and stuff that smart people do, like museums or the science center, but I wouldn't consider those academic and would consider them hobbies. It might potentially be my area. I didn't realize it, but I apparently live in a very Hipster-centric city. There seems to be an overlap between the Nerds and the Hipsters, which may be partially where the Us-Them group mentality is coming from. I am a nerdy hipster, but the kind of hipster who makes fun of hipsters, if you know what I mean, and not the rich kind. And the kind who works for a living. But, basically, I have hipster interest in music and such, along with my nerdy interests. Where I live is neither particularly nerdy or hipster, especially compared to your area, but most nerds here are also a bit hipster, except the super-nerd kind. My guess is it's the "wide range" of interests that saves the girls from being Alpha Nerded. I think, frankly, it also helps if you're not single. If you have a husband or a boyfriend also in the group, that seems to give you some protection. The girls I've seen been put to the Alpha Nerd test are predominantly single (or are just mute about their relationship status.) Mostly, they are single folks majority with just a few couples (not always coming together). Almost all the Meetups I go to are.
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 This one. (10 ch) Ehh, I guess I don't totally buy it, because the 2 guys I'm thinking of (out of the 4 tournaments I've been to) played girls earlier in the day without objection. Maybe I just live in a weird area, I guess. Though I think the fact that lots of girls agreed with Dr. Nerdlove on the original article and his FB page means this IS occurring a lot more than one might assume. Zengirl and E, maybe you're the outliners.
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 How serious of a tourney was it? See, the thing about tourneys that you pay to enter, is that refusing to play is automatically considered a surrender/walkover, in every case that I've seen. I can't imagine someone who puts that kind of time and effort into his alpha-nerd-hood giving up his chance at the win just because he doesn't want to, quote him, face an ugly girl. It just doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if he thinks the girl would just cave in to his attack on her self esteem... What DID you do about the refusal to play, btw? 1
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 How serious of a tourney was it? See, the thing about tourneys that you pay to enter, is that refusing to play is automatically considered a surrender/walkover, in every case that I've seen. I can't imagine someone who puts that kind of time and effort into his alpha-nerd-hood giving up his chance at the win just because he doesn't want to, quote him, face an ugly girl. It just doesn't make sense. On the other hand, if he thinks the girl would just cave in to his attack on her self esteem... What DID you do about the refusal to play, btw? I surrendered in both cases. Actually, in the first instance, I ran out of the shop in tears. The second time I was like "What the f*** ever," and just went to watch some friends play. They were booster tournaments in all cases; kinda serious, a little more casual than the BIG tournaments with prepared decks. In the first instance, the guy was bitching and complaining because the tournament actually had a limited number of slots, and he was pissed off that an ugly "amateur" like me got one.
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) I surrendered in both cases. Actually, in the first instance, I ran out of the shop in tears. The second time I was like "What the f*** ever," and just went to watch some friends play. See, this is what I suspected. Those immature jerks wanted an easy win, and, from prior observation/gossip/interaction, figured that this would do the trick, and they were right. They are walking over you not because you're ugly, but because you let them. You can and should choose to not play with people like that, but choosing to participate and then let them walk over you is really not the answer. Either try for a different social group or stick up to the jerks in this one. Edit: Oops, missed your edit. Booster draft with 8-4 packs going to winners? Edited June 27, 2012 by Elswyth
Feelin Frisky Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I have extreme disdain for characterization of people as nerds and/or geeks. Just listen to yourselves.
Cracker Jack Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 He just sounds like he had a stone lodged into his ass. Can't think of any other reason why they'd act so lame just for a win. And....the more I read about your experiences, it just seems like you're often unfairly drawing this attraction. I don't even recall women that were known as being "out there" to always get this type of reaction from guys. Also, was this a Yu-Gi-Oh tourney or something?
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 He just sounds like he had a stone lodged into his ass. Can't think of any other reason why he'd act so lame. And....the more I read about your experiences, it just seems like you're often unfairly drawing this attraction. I don't even recall women that were known as being "out there" to always get this type of reaction from guys. Also, was this a Yu-Gi-Oh tourney or something? It was Magic: the Gathering. Not something lame like Yu-Gi-Oh. What are we, 15? Well, to be fair, it isn't always happening. I'd say the majority of the time, guys (nerds and non-nerds) just flat out ignore me. Something like a 90/10 split if Ignoring/Abuse. Booster draft with 8-4 packs going to winners? You got it. :-D 1
Emilia Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I have extreme disdain for characterization of people as nerds and/or geeks. Just listen to yourselves. It's all very secondary school. Didn't realise people in their 20s still talk like this.
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 You got it. :-D Hah, in that case it really isn't you that's the problem. The bf and I actually only went to one of that kind because he didn't want to go anymore after it. Two of his opponents were constantly heckling him to make quicker moves despite him being within the timer, and one of them kept talking rudely and impatiently with his friends. Just stay out of those and play online. If you do go though, for the love of god don't give uber-nerds easy walkovers like that, ever, or some of the more jerkish ones will repeat their actions just to get the easy walkover.
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Ehh, I guess I don't totally buy it, because the 2 guys I'm thinking of (out of the 4 tournaments I've been to) played girls earlier in the day without objection. Maybe I just live in a weird area, I guess. Though I think the fact that lots of girls agreed with Dr. Nerdlove on the original article and his FB page means this IS occurring a lot more than one might assume. Zengirl and E, maybe you're the outliners. I saw the top of the comments, and it's more analysis of video game characters (too detailed to get into my deepest thoughts on that, really). The next comment is literally a lady saying her experiences has always been good but she stays away from proper cons because of horror stories. Then some talk about how girls shouldn't dress sexy at cons because they're being objectified, but I think most girls who dress sexy for a con do so because they LIKE that costume and find it cute/attractive. As such, I think a lot of the cute video game gal characters (not all -- I mean the boobs as big as your head thing definitely isn't for the straight ladies) are cute for women as well --- most of the male heroes are some version of fairly 'attractive' models as well, unless there's a reason they wouldn't be. Then some people calling him a feminist, which this article is definitely written from a feminist perspective - i.e. one that critiques gender expectations. And some talk about how his perspective is really post-gender/egalitarian, which is the same darn thing, really. And some more talk about how feminism is evil or great or whatever. Then more posts about video games, including a gal who notes she likes her video game characters sexy (in a realistic way, I do too, frankly, though 'cute' is more what I'd go for that big bazoombas and half-naked)*. But then some talk about how it is uneven and males often look more realistic (true, but that's changing a bit, as is female characters becoming more realistic). *I want my male characters cute too, or at least with better hair and outfits. Seriously. Though video game hair is still hard to render beautifully. Then some posts about how men DO abuse each other when playing FPSs. Absolutely true, and they do so much worse when not in mixed company in many cases (depends on the type of guys -- you know the type I prefer, which wouldn't be the kind of guys who go around saying **** like that to men or women). I do see a few people who would agree with your statements, but also many who have probably had experiences similar to mine as well.
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) It was Magic: the Gathering. Not something lame like Yu-Gi-Oh. What are we, 15? Well, to be fair, it isn't always happening. I'd say the majority of the time, guys (nerds and non-nerds) just flat out ignore me. Something like a 90/10 split if Ignoring/Abuse. My experience with tourneys --- which as I said, I typically dislike --- is that most of the people, unless they already know each other, are not there to 'make friends or be friends'. Think of it like the nerd version of a reality TV show. I think that's more the setting and yes, them wanting an easy win, for the jerks, and for the guys who ignore. Well, MOST people ignore me in the comic shop too, unless I know them or start a conversation, even if we're sitting around the same table. Plenty of nerds do have social skills, but plenty of them are still introverts. Beyond that, a tourney, with its competitive nature and the amount of Alpha Nerd munchkin punks there who play in a Magic Tourney, not exactly the place to make new friends, IME. Edited June 27, 2012 by zengirl 2
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 My experience with tourneys --- which as I said, I typically dislike --- is that most of the people, unless they already know each other, are not there to 'make friends or be friends'. Think of it like the nerd version of a reality TV show. I think that's more the setting and yes, them wanting an easy win, for the jerks, and for the guys who ignore. Well, MOST people ignore me in the comic shop too, unless I know them or start a conversation, even if we're sitting around the same table. Plenty of nerds do have social skills, but plenty of them are still introverts. Beyond that, a tourney, with its competitive nature and the amount of Alpha Nerd munchkin punks there who play in a Magic Tourney, not exactly the place to make new friends, IME. Very true; the reason I've largely been avoiding competitive gaming for a while now is, besides the lack of time to be truly good in it, the somewhat hostile atmosphere it engenders. This seems to be the case with any sort of niche competition, really - I also had some unpleasant encounters with board game tournaments, and I know people who played competitive league sports who also had a lot of trouble with opponents. You need a really thick skin to do that sort of stuff regularly, IMO. Which is a pity, since I naturally love competition, just not the atmosphere that goes with it.
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