Sarabina Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Read the following article and discuss Nerds and Male Privilege | Paging Dr. NerdLove I think any women, who is herself nerdy/geek OR has dated someone nerdy/geeky will relate to/understand this article. So many men have ridiculous misconceptions about the women and dating - hopefully this site will help you get rid of them.
RedRobin Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Wow! This article described at least half of the male posters on LS. Coincidence? I think not. 1
january2011 Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 The male nerds I come across offline tend not to act like this. Teenage nerds and some nerds in their early 20s might, but not the grown men who've spent time working and socialising (with others, including women) beyond college. Perhaps geographical location is a factor.
somedude81 Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Why are there never any articles about female privilege?
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) I love Dr. Nerdlove. :-) I kinda wish he had more female-centric articles, but I agree with about 95% of what he says, so I can forgive it. Why are there never any articles about female privilege? .... You are kidding, right? Did you read absolutely any of the article? Or, heck, any of his articles on privilege? The male nerds I come across offline tend not to act like this. Teenage nerds and some nerds in their early 20s might, but not the grown men who've spent time working and socialising (with others, including women) beyond college. Perhaps geographical location is a factor. Most of my exes and male friends have more, rather than less, of the attitudes he subscribes, and I'm in my mid-20's. I find that the nerdy guys who HAVE done away with these attitudes are very, very successful with women. For example, the programmers at my company are "nerds," but well socialized and nice... all of em have smoking hot fiancees/wives. Edited June 27, 2012 by verhrzn 1
utterer of lies Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Nerds and Male Privilege | Paging Dr. NerdLove This article is a piece of crap. Everyone gets denigrated in online forums, not just women. The opinions of thirteen year olds on internet forums are not exactly life-relevant to most people. If you chose to believe they are for you, that's your choice. That media is exploitative is no news. In comics as well as in books, films or on TV, the mass market seems to like placative, simplified and stereotyped portrayals of ..well...everybody and everything. Of course there are more sophisticated products such as indie comics or films, but they are a usually niche market. Media that takes care to be fair to everybody (regardless of gender, race, ... whatever) is often too focused on being fair, and not enough on being entertaining. 3
El Brujo Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Why are there never any articles about female privilege? Because that's a given.
fortyninethousand322 Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Did you read absolutely any of the article? Or, heck, any of his articles on privilege? I don't know if SD has, but I've perused some of his stuff. For the most part I think he worries too much about things that are best left to sort themselves out. This article included.
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I'm not certain that I agree with this. I think the reason games and fandom are catered more to men is related to the simple laws of business: supply and demand. Men still are the vast majority of customers, although the female fanbase is slowly growing. Businesses, if they want to do well, usually cater to the majority. There will be some niche ones, of course - I think there were a few companies in Japan making games with dreamy romantic male protagonists for women - but as a whole, the popular ones will cater to the majority. I wouldn't read into this any more than I do into the fact that shops selling bath, candles, and scent are usually colored in pastel and girly tones, boutique cupcakes have glitter and gorgeously girly decos on them, clothing and perfume departmental stores have about 75% of their area dedicated to women's items, and romantic comedies always portray the male protagonist as the dreamy, ravishing man head-over-heels with a girl who is unsure about him. They know that their customer base will be predominantly women and they tailor their approach. 3
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 That being said, I browsed through some of his articles afterwards and found Victims, Virgins and Player Haters: Adventures In the Man-O-Sphere | Paging Dr. NerdLove fairly true for some men. His style of writing is also entertaining.
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 The bit about the comic book store somehow reminds me of this: "So, Joss, why do you write these strong women characters?" "Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't!" Anyway, re: Male nerd culture. Female nerds are relatively new and still in the minority. This is slowly changing, and you can see that reflected in evolving nerd culture. I don't really feel there's a lot of 'exclusion' and showing me a picture of Catwoman and saying it's excluding women because of her outfit is pretty silly, IMO. Games nowadays are including more hairstyle and armor (i.e. outfit) choices BECAUSE of women. Games are including homosexual character. Etc, etc. It really is getting better. In comics, in games, in every aspect of nerd culture, and the fixation on such completely cosmetic aspects of it is always a bit bizarre to me. Anyway, some nerds are misogynistic and others are not. I go to both a comic book store and a niche board game store (the kind where they have Magic tournaments regularly!) regularly, and I don't really feel out of place, nor am I the only girl there. Girls work there and shop there, though in smaller numbers than guys. Most of the nerds I know aren't so mystified to see a girl and a lot of the ones who are honestly surprised by and scared of women, it's just because they've been shunned by women, as generally fat, pimply nerds, so it becomes a problem propagated by both genders. But, yeah, there are some jerks. IME, there are jerks in every pocket of society. No escaping that. 2
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 The bit about the comic book store somehow reminds me of this: "So, Joss, why do you write these strong women characters?" "Why aren't you asking 100 other guys why they don't!" Oh, how I Joss Whedon. Female nerds are relatively new and still in the minority. This is slowly changing, and you can see that reflected in evolving nerd culture. I don't really feel there's a lot of 'exclusion' and showing me a picture of Catwoman and saying it's excluding women because of her outfit is pretty silly, IMO. Games nowadays are including more hairstyle and armor (i.e. outfit) choices BECAUSE of women. Games are including homosexual character. Etc, etc. It really is getting better. In comics, in games, in every aspect of nerd culture, and the fixation on such completely cosmetic aspects of it is always a bit bizarre to me. Yeah, Blizzard specifically said that when it was considering character designs for Diablo 3, they initially intended to have the characters male to halve the work in designing armor appearances (since there are several tiers of design for each class and they all look very distinct), but decided against it because they didn't want to alienate female players. Good choice, though I can't say the same about the OTHER choices they made with that game. Anyway, some nerds are misogynistic and others are not. I go to both a comic book store and a niche board game store (the kind where they have Magic tournaments regularly!) regularly, and I don't really feel out of place, nor am I the only girl there. Girls work there and shop there, though in smaller numbers than guys. Most of the nerds I know aren't so mystified to see a girl and a lot of the ones who are honestly surprised by and scared of women, it's just because they've been shunned by women, as generally fat, pimply nerds, so it becomes a problem propagated by both genders. But, yeah, there are some jerks. IME, there are jerks in every pocket of society. No escaping that. Personally, I've generally been treated fairly well in such places. I once went to a Magic tournament - my first, and I WAS the only girl there - and the shopkeeper made a point of helping me out with stuff and showing me around. Good businessman, that one. The other players were generally kind and forgiving too (because when you haven't ever played official MTG draft IRL, boy, you do a lot of stupid crap). I think that, like anywhere else in the world, if you go into things with a positive attitude, you'll generally notice a lot of nice people along with the jerks.
Feelsgoodman Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Adult nerds are people with a mild to medium mental disability, so the use of the word 'privilege' is rather inappropriate in this context. They are adults who are mentally trapped in their childhood/early teen years. Batman and Spiderman may be cool when you're 8 years old, but if you're stil into that sh*t in your 20's and 30's? That's just retarded. 1
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 (edited) Personally, I've generally been treated fairly well in such places. I once went to a Magic tournament - my first, and I WAS the only girl there - and the shopkeeper made a point of helping me out with stuff and showing me around. Good businessman, that one. The other players were generally kind and forgiving too (because when you haven't ever played official MTG draft IRL, boy, you do a lot of stupid crap). I think that, like anywhere else in the world, if you go into things with a positive attitude, you'll generally notice a lot of nice people along with the jerks. I mean, I have gotten a bit of surprise at times when I 'nerd' out, but I think generally non-nerdy-looking men get the same surprise. People are surprised if they don't know him when Hubby nerds out too. If a guy has never seen a girl, particularly a girl who doesn't look/present in a 'nerdy' way (which I don't) nerd out about something, I don't mind and even expect a little surprise. But that's not a 'problem' --- people surprise me all the time too! Usually in the case of nerds, they're expressing pleasant surprise -- the kind of surprise you express when you see someone who likes the same obscure thing you like. Generally, that's not with the mainstream 'nerdy' stuff though but when I mention some obscure niche board game or something. Sometimes you get the defensive nerds ("I know more about this than ANYONE! You're all noobs! GRR!") but I've met lady-nerds with that attitude too so it's not just guy-nerds. Edited June 27, 2012 by zengirl
jobaba Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Wow! This article described at least half of the male posters on LS. Coincidence? I think not. Actually. What I have learned from LS and a few other forums over the past few years is there are a LOT of nerd women out there who are into anime, comics, comicon and stuff like that. It's pretty amazing. I'm about 10 years older than most of these women and when I went to high school, that female demographic was non-existent. MAYBE, there was one girl who played dungeons and dragons and went renaissance fairs. And girls play video games now? NO WOMEN played video games when I was young. The nerds definitely have it much better than when I was young and it's good to see actually. Not that I ever really was one. I read comics for awhile.
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 How old are you, jobaba? I thought you were in your 20s. Loads of girls in their late 20s played video games in HS and such (that's my age - I'm 27). I do agree that the generations before ours, the nerds were mostly male, which is why many games and such still skew male.
Woggle Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Not all people who play video games are nerds. I enjoy the occasional gamer of Grand Theft Auto or a good fighter but I am in no way interested in all that World of Warcraft kind of stuff. 1
jobaba Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 How old are you, jobaba? I thought you were in your 20s. Loads of girls in their late 20s played video games in HS and such (that's my age - I'm 27). I do agree that the generations before ours, the nerds were mostly male, which is why many games and such still skew male. No. Smack mid 30s. Don't let my poor luck with women and relative inexperience fool you. If you knew about anime when I went to high school, you were Asian or REALLY geeky. I'm Asian and I didn't even know about it until much later.
zengirl Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Not all people who play video games are nerds. I enjoy the occasional gamer of Grand Theft Auto or a good fighter but I am in no way interested in all that World of Warcraft kind of stuff. Nerdiness is in degrees, but you're right that many games (including most of the games listed in the article given) are fairly mainstream. Calling them not nerdy then leads to the whole "You're not nerdy enough" discussions in nerd culture, though, so I don't particularly do that. I definitely like some nerdy stuff, but WoW isn't for me either. I wouldn't assume all nerds like all nerd things (not saying you are a nerd, Woggle -- only you know whether you are or not). Just saying that I don't think liking "WoW" is sufficient criteria for nerdliness either. Really, being a nerd is about nerding out about things, often obscure things, but even mainstream things. It's a mindset and a way of identifying with the world, more than simply a catalog of interests, I'd say, though some interests are associated with it. But, yes, casual gamers abound everywhere too. The FPSes cited in the article are sometimes played by casual gamers, and even Arkham City is hardly a particularly nerds-only game, though the comic parentage makes it a bit nerdy, I suppose.
fortyninethousand322 Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 But, yes, casual gamers abound everywhere too. The FPSes cited in the article are sometimes played by casual gamers, and even Arkham City is hardly a particularly nerds-only game, though the comic parentage makes it a bit nerdy, I suppose. Yeah pretty much. I'm no "nerd" but even I appreciate the occasional game of Goldeneye and I've played the first Arkham game (never got around to the second one though).
Els Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I mean, I have gotten a bit of surprise at times when I 'nerd' out, but I think generally non-nerdy-looking men get the same surprise. People are surprised if they don't know him when Hubby nerds out too. If a guy has never seen a girl, particularly a girl who doesn't look/present in a 'nerdy' way (which I don't) nerd out about something, I don't mind and even expect a little surprise. But that's not a 'problem' --- people surprise me all the time too! Usually in the case of nerds, they're expressing pleasant surprise -- the kind of surprise you express when you see someone who likes the same obscure thing you like. Generally, that's not with the mainstream 'nerdy' stuff though but when I mention some obscure niche board game or something. Sometimes you get the defensive nerds ("I know more about this than ANYONE! You're all noobs! GRR!") but I've met lady-nerds with that attitude too so it's not just guy-nerds. Yeah, I've gotten the surprise reaction too, and the strange thing is that I think I actually DO look like a nerd, so I can't see why they'd be surprised. Regardless, I guess I was trying to say that I don't think the example given in the article (about how the guys treated the girl in the comic store) is usually accurate. I think that, for the most part, girls are treated quite well in such places, or at least not any worse than they are anywhere else. I'll fully admit that there have been times when my sex became an issue (when I was trying to lead a competitive team in college and some people had trouble taking me seriously), but it usually doesn't manifest in the way the article described. Actually. What I have learned from LS and a few other forums over the past few years is there are a LOT of nerd women out there who are into anime, comics, comicon and stuff like that. It's pretty amazing. I'm about 10 years older than most of these women and when I went to high school, that female demographic was non-existent. MAYBE, there was one girl who played dungeons and dragons and went renaissance fairs. And girls play video games now? NO WOMEN played video games when I was young. The nerds definitely have it much better than when I was young and it's good to see actually. Not that I ever really was one. I read comics for awhile. Well, I think 'nerdiness' (however you describe the term) is just more acceptable and widespread now than before, so that leads to its population being more varied too. As Felicia Day put it, "Now I'm the one that's cool." I don't necessarily see that as a positive or a negative, just a sign of the changing times. There was also the stigma in the older generations that 'no real adults play video games', but that is certainly one that is disproven currently. The majority of my WoW guildmates are above 30, with flourishing careers, and some of them are married and play with their spouses and/or children. There was also a guild of RL doctors that my bf and his friends were considering joining. Not all people who play video games are nerds. I enjoy the occasional gamer of Grand Theft Auto or a good fighter but I am in no way interested in all that World of Warcraft kind of stuff. WoW is possibly the least 'nerdy' game you could ever play, really. It has one of the highest percentages of women in it compared to other games, for one thing.
jobaba Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Yeah pretty much. I'm no "nerd" but even I appreciate the occasional game of Goldeneye and I've played the first Arkham game (never got around to the second one though). Yea. Guys didn't really do that when I was young. They didn't sit around and play video games. I mean, they'd get in groups and play Madden or hockey but not sit alone and play Final Fantasy for hours on end. I did do a little bit of that, so I guess in retrospect I was kinda geeky. Now it seems the norm for guys to sit around and play video games by themselves for hours.
jobaba Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 Well, I think 'nerdiness' (however you describe the term) is just more acceptable and widespread now than before, so that leads to its population being more varied too. As Felicia Day put it, "Now I'm the one that's cool." I don't necessarily see that as a positive or a negative, just a sign of the changing times. There was also the stigma in the older generations that 'no real adults play video games', but that is certainly one that is disproven currently. The majority of my WoW guildmates are above 30, with flourishing careers, and some of them are married and play with their spouses and/or children. There was also a guild of RL doctors that my bf and his friends were considering joining. Yea, well, I've always said I'm more of a geek than a nerd, because although I'm socially marginalized, I don't really carry the nerdy interests. I'm into sports, beer, and rock music. Some adults my age probably hopped on WOW later. But when I was in undergrad I can honestly say I didn't know a single female who played PC games.
verhrzn Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 I know some posters are gonna hate me for going down this road, but I've found that to be accepted and treated well by the nerd community, girls either need to be: -good looking (then ANY sign of nerdiness is awesome) -able to Alpha Nerd anyone else I hang out almost exclusively in nerdy circles, and my observation has been that if a good-looking girl shows any inclination to nerd things, guys will bend over backwards to accommodate her. However, if she is average or, well, less good-looking, then a woman really has to fight to be heard. When I'm at comic shops and nerding events, I am constantly having to prove how nerdy I am, and the guys are not nice to me until I have won their approval. That's part of the privilege Dr. NL was talking about. I'm not sure if he discusses it in this article, but he's commented throughout his blog the emphasis male nerds place on female looks, much more so than even mainstream society. 1
seachangeoflove Posted June 27, 2012 Posted June 27, 2012 However, if she is average or, well, less good-looking, then a woman really has to fight to be heard. When I'm at comic shops and nerding events, I am constantly having to prove how nerdy I am, and the guys are not nice to me until I have won their approval. sounds like you're trying way too hard. Care less. Be your self. Have fun at the events, don't worry about meeting boys. Just like women can tell when men are desperate, men can tell when we are at an event to 'bag a man' even if we would be there anyway. You don't need anyone's approval. Ever. If they don't like you how you are eff em'
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