Ducky23 Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 My A is with a MM whom I considered to be a close friend before it started and he has grown to be my best friend over the last almost year and a half. Regardless of the A, we've always kept a friendship within it and can/will/have talked about everything under the sun. We are so close to being the exact same person that we frequently are told it's 'creepy' (finish each others sentences, say the same thing at the same time, order the same at restaurants, ect.), and we have talked about what would happen if either of us decided to break off. I read a lot on here about NC when ending an A, but is that really the only option? Has anyone been able to stay just friends after a PA? Or does that simply change the dynamic to make it an EA? I'm very close to calling it off but don't want to lose him as a friend as well. Any thoughts?
skywriter Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) If you don't cut off all contact, then you aren't serious about healing and moving towards a healthy place for yourself. It's an unhealthy addictive situation and what is the point of staying "so called friends" with something that is unhealthy anyway? You're in denial if you believe you'll just be "friends". Oh and no you can't be friends after an A. I'm thinking it would be a good idea to reevaluate your definition of what a "friend" is. I'm only saying this because this is what I had to do as well. Edited June 20, 2012 by skywriter 1
MissBee Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) When you and someone are close to being the exact same person...it is indeed creepy. None of the really admirable couples I've seen were close to being the exact same person---they had similarities and were the yin to each other's yang, but being exactly the same person raises alarm bells for me. I don't want to date a man exactly like me at all lmao! We need to have values that are in sync and agree on the most important elements in life, but aside from that, I want my complement....not my double. In any case, to directly answer the question: Most times, no; you cannot remain friends, especially if the MP is going to genuinely work on their marriage post-A. A lot of people feel like the person they're currently romantically involved with is their bestfriend...and mayeb they were. But a lot of romantic relationships are transient, and when people break up, as it often goes, they often do not remain bestfriends or really good friends, but life takes them on separate paths. It's okay though. It's scary to imagine that person not being around you and serving the same role -we can never imagine it at the time and it sends us in a panic when we do-but life does go on and it does become normal and quite okay. Everything that is new seems scary and impossible, but you do it and then don't even remember how it used to be when you're living the new normal. My exAP was one of my bestfriends while in the A. I spoke to him every single day pretty much for 2 years! He was usually the first person I spoke to in the morning and last at night....it was hard when we went NC but I survived and moved on and him no longer being my bestfriend became normal. I couldn't imagine it at the time, when it just happened it hurt, but now...I intellectually remember us being close, but I have no feelings about it, don't really miss him and my life without him is great.He isn't someone I speak to now and it's okay. I have great friends who I'm not romantic with, who have been there for years and years, no matter how many "boyfriend-bestfriends" I get who come and go...they're still around. I treasure that and keep them close as I know a boyfriend-bestfriend may not last but those platonic, true friendships have. So you will be just fine, even if you aren't friends. Edited June 20, 2012 by MissBee 2
Author Ducky23 Posted June 20, 2012 Author Posted June 20, 2012 I ask for a number of reasons, but mainly because I've almost always been able to stay friends with my SO after a breakup, assuming it was an amicable split and we'd both had time to heal and let go. My MM and I have a lot (read:most) of the same friends and only one of them knows about the A. So if all of a sudden it became awkward between us or we went NC, it would raise some brows. It's not just the A that would be affected, all of our friendships would be affected on some level. Even if it was just not attending the same social functions/parties/bars.
MissBee Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) Well there's nothing you can do about that is there? You can't un-have the A, therefore, that is just a consequence and fall out of it. In the case of a normal relationship, when you break up, you can be expected to be awkward and take some time to move on and your friends will get it. If you have an A, then it becomes awkward as you try to move on while hiding the fact that there is something you're moving on from. You can't do anything about that at this point... I suggest you start detaching from this couple and stop sleeping in their bed. Tell them you need to focus more on your kids, which is always a good and real reason that every mom can stop doing unnecessary things she no longer wants to do. Spend more time with your kids and tell them that's what you're doing. Think of it as instead of investing in MM and this mess, and instead of having NC with no clear investment in another thing, you're detaching by employing NC to invest in your kids. That is always rewarding and a tangible thing you can do and feel good about. That is the easiest way to detach without it being very weird. Once you do that, slowly but surely, you'll be able to focus on your kids, their activities and other stuff...maybe even get some different friends. Your group of friends won't think it's because of an A...but that you're being a good mom and maybe your priorities in life are changing. It happens. Also...do your friends know about your arrangement, where you all sleep together??? If they don't...then I'm sorry, they must already think something weird is up...and in that case it doesn't matter one way or another if you go NC..as they probably already realize something fishy is up with you 3 or you 2 at least, so that's the least of your concerns really. Edited June 20, 2012 by MissBee 1
Author Ducky23 Posted June 20, 2012 Author Posted June 20, 2012 I suggest you start detaching from this couple and stop sleeping in their bed. Tell them you need to focus more on your kids, which is always a good and real reason that every mom can stop doing unnecessary things she no longer wants to do. Spend more time with your kids and tell them that's what you're doing. Think of it as instead of investing in MM and this mess, and instead of having NC with no clear investment in another thing, you're detaching by employing NC to invest in your kids. That is always rewarding and a tangible thing you can do and feel good about. That is the easiest way to detach without it being very weird. Once you do that, slowly but surely, you'll be able to focus on your kids, their activities and other stuff...maybe even get some different friends. Your group of friends won't think it's because of an A...but that you're being a good mom and maybe your priorities in life are changing. It happens. Also...do your friends know about your arrangement, where you all sleep together??? If they don't...then I'm sorry, they must already think something weird is up...and in that case it doesn't matter one way or another if you go NC..as they probably already realize something fishy is up with you 3 or you 2 at least, so that's the least of your concerns really. MissBee, you said to use my kids as a 'changing of priorities' point, but I travel for work, so using that excuse would mean changing my career, or the path that it's going right now, which is toward a huge advancement within my company. They already know that I'm making the sacrifice to travel away from my children as a stepping stone to a brighter future, at which point I would be settling in his town. One of the main places I travel to is his town. All of our friends/their neighbors/families know I put up 'base camp' when I'm in town on business so even just changing where I stay when I'm in town would throw up red flags. Only one of my friends knows about the full arrangement/situation and she has been in the loop since day one. He has told a few of the Joes of the truth of the situation, but anyone with contact with her knows nothing more than I'm a hardworking mom trying to make a living and provide for her family and they're simply nice enough to offer up the couch when I'm in town.
nofool4u Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Has anyone been able to stay just friends after a PA? Or does that simply change the dynamic to make it an EA? I'm very close to calling it off but don't want to lose him as a friend as well. Any thoughts? He can't stay friends with you, someone he laid down with, and think he is showing anything but disrespect to his wife. But you probably don't care about that. 1
MissBee Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) MissBee, you said to use my kids as a 'changing of priorities' point, but I travel for work, so using that excuse would mean changing my career, or the path that it's going right now, which is toward a huge advancement within my company. They already know that I'm making the sacrifice to travel away from my children as a stepping stone to a brighter future, at which point I would be settling in his town. One of the main places I travel to is his town. All of our friends/their neighbors/families know I put up 'base camp' when I'm in town on business so even just changing where I stay when I'm in town would throw up red flags. Only one of my friends knows about the full arrangement/situation and she has been in the loop since day one. He has told a few of the Joes of the truth of the situation, but anyone with contact with her knows nothing more than I'm a hardworking mom trying to make a living and provide for her family and they're simply nice enough to offer up the couch when I'm in town. Ducky..you're a grown woman. Your friends cannot dictate your life. We are all free to choose to spend less time with our friends for whatever reason, even change friends completely if we want. This is normal. People understand this. So whether it's kids, work, or no reason at all...no one is going to harass you about why you aren't sleeping on their couch anymore. There are far more important things in life don't you think? Among my friends and associates, people have dated or people fell out for one reason or another. Did people talk about it? Yep...sometimes, but it wasn't a huge scandal. So and so doesn't seem to be close anymore...wonder why? Maybe they're having an A, maybe xyz...and you move on with your life. It is a "hot topic" for a day or week or it's a passing comment in a conversation. It hasn't changed my friendships with them, just because they aren't as close to such and such anymore. People talk and it passes and we move on. Sometimes we think people care more than they actually do. People will always gossip or comment about something they find odd...but half the time you're never privy to or it's a passing concern and not something they will call a general assembly to discuss. Your friends have their own lives I'm sure to tend to and will not kick up a big storm over you no longer sleeping by MM's house. It is easily explained away if you so desire IMO. Further, since this is not a top class secret, as MM "told a few Joes" (whatever that means) and you have told a friend, so what does it matter who else gets suspicious if other people already know? I assume the rest of people are associates and acquaintances and not true blue friends. If you only see them when you come to town...that makes it even less likely that what you choose to do will be on the top of their list of things to fret about. And if it is...you need to reorganize your friendships, as grown people don't need that type of clique-like circle where everyone is in everyone's business, people are sleeping with each other's husbands/wives and everyone's talking about it. If you want to end the A you will. If you want to stop seeing him...you'll find a reason. But the reason of your associates in some town being suspicious isn't a good one frankly. Edited June 20, 2012 by MissBee
whichwayisup Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 No you cannot be 'friends' with an exAP. For so many reasons, but to name a few: It'll prevent you from truly grieving and letting go. It'll prevent you from healing, from getting to know other men, allowing another man close to you..It'll do harm to his marriage if he continues talking to you as a friend. Sorry, but an exAP is a cancer to a marriage once the A ends. NO friendship can happen as it's not fair to the exMM and his wife if they are trying to save/savage their marriage. It'll prevent him from totally focussing on his wife and fixing things. It'll just turn into an EA and feed feelings again.
Author Ducky23 Posted June 20, 2012 Author Posted June 20, 2012 Okay, so mostly what I'm getting is that he shouldn't stay friends with me in the event that he decides to work on/fix his marriage. But with or without me in the picture, he's leaving her. She's the only one who doesn't know it. It's just not public knowledge that he has someone (me) on the side. Bee, he's a soldier, and they call each other 'Joes', it's just something I've become accustomed to doing as well, coming from a military family. And I suppose you've gotta be right about friends not whispering in the shadows.. I just finished a major overhaul on my 'friends' because I got tired of the BS drama that came with those women who DID whisper in the shadows. I'm not so mich worried about losing friends in the process, or disappointing the ones that want to see us together, I guess mostly I'm worried about creating awkward social settings in the case of NC. I've never really been the type to approve of cheating or affairs, so I've never been in this situation before and am quite baffled as to how to go about regaining my freedom from this horrible situation. I never until recently realized that when he spoke of D, he didn't mean rightnow, but when he had his finances where he wanted them. Which has taken way more time than I ever thought.
frozensprouts Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 ducky... ,y husband's military too, and if the guys in your army are anything like the guys in the army here, they seem to love to gossip and brag...there's a very good chance that they may have already guessed what is going on ( or at least that he is cheating with you), and are gossiping behind your back. Quite frankly, does it really matter what these people think? Is your happiness not more important that what a bunch of guys think? You are worth more than this... you're not happy, you don't seem to feel good about what you are doing...isn't your happiness and sense of self worth much more important than these peoples opinions?
whichwayisup Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Okay, so mostly what I'm getting is that he shouldn't stay friends with me in the event that he decides to work on/fix his marriage. But with or without me in the picture, he's leaving her. She's the only one who doesn't know it. It's just not public knowledge that he has someone (me) on the side. Bee, he's a soldier, and they call each other 'Joes', it's just something I've become accustomed to doing as well, coming from a military family. And I suppose you've gotta be right about friends not whispering in the shadows.. I just finished a major overhaul on my 'friends' because I got tired of the BS drama that came with those women who DID whisper in the shadows. I'm not so mich worried about losing friends in the process, or disappointing the ones that want to see us together, I guess mostly I'm worried about creating awkward social settings in the case of NC. I've never really been the type to approve of cheating or affairs, so I've never been in this situation before and am quite baffled as to how to go about regaining my freedom from this horrible situation. I never until recently realized that when he spoke of D, he didn't mean rightnow, but when he had his finances where he wanted them. Which has taken way more time than I ever thought. Time will tell if what he says to you (his plan on leaving and divorcing) actually happens. Saying and doing are two different things. He needs to tell his wife. The sooner the better. That is, if he means what he has told you.
Ninja'sHusband Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 I say no. Unless you don't care about MM's marriage, which may be the case considering what happened. Think of how his BW feels.
Author Ducky23 Posted June 20, 2012 Author Posted June 20, 2012 I say no. Unless you don't care about MM's marriage, which may be the case considering what happened. Think of how his BW feels. I can't say I care for his marriage at all. I probably would if she treated him better and didn't take all that he's given her for granted. It's probably a deeply disturbing and extremely cruel thing to say, but breaking off the A has nothing to do with his relationship with W. I know firsthand how she treats him, what she says about him. Her and I have spoken at length about how she would react to an affair. If I wanted to destroy his marriage, it would take one quick second to unlock my phone, open our messages, and hand it to her. I know exactly how she would feel, because I was the BW and my husband ended up leaving me for OW (then went to prison because she was 15, but that's another story). Breaking it off would be a completely selfish act, having nothing to do with his own life and having everything to do with my own sanity. I know that he's miserable where he is and whether we ended up together after D doesn't concern me. I want his happiness more than I want him.
spice4life Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 I think it all depends upon the reason why you are ending the affair. If you are ending because it is not fair to your respective SO's then no, you can't remain friends. The question is, are you looking to have a healthy loving relationship with the person you are comited to? If you are, then remaining friends with someone you have an emotional connection to that you can't share openly with your SO is not possible. Even if you end as friends, there is still going to be a "secretive" emotional communication that cannot be shared with SO. You would still be involved in an emotional affair that leaves the person you are commited to out of the loop. Not fair to them in my opinion. I ended because if I even stayed friends with my xMM, it would mean that I can't be "authentic" with the person I meet in the future that I want to commit to. Even if I told them about the affair, it would be horribly unfair to them to stay connected to xMM. It would make them feel insecure I'm sure. Again, not fair to them in my opinion. I would not want to do that to someone I am commited to, love and care about. The reality is, it's not my problem that xMM is married and not free to have an open honest relationship. That's his burden.
carhill Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Any thoughts? IMO, it probably depends on the affair type as well as the psychologies of the individuals. I remained friends with a number of MW's who wandered into inappropriate territory after they regained their perspective and recovered their M's. Once I put together the romantic toxicity with the longest lived of them, I was able to transmute the dynamic from my side to a healthy feeling of friendship and was an open supporter of she and her BF, helping them both personally and in business. She made the choice to end the association and friendship and I was OK with that. Our 'thing' had run its course over the 25 years or so it went on. Perhaps folks who have PA's and EA's experience the dynamics differently. I won't have sex with someone who's not available for a relationship so have never had a PA but had a number of EA's over the decades, though didn't really identify them as such until attending MC with my exW. MC clarified a lot.
Author Ducky23 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Posted June 21, 2012 We are both, I guess, abnormal in the fact that he's very guarded emotionally, always has been his whole life. Everything in life he finds humorous and will always find some hilarity in a situation where I see none. He's actually the one who told me "if ever you find someone else to make you happy, then go. We will always be friends no matter what. As long as you're happy, with or without me, I'll be okay." And I have Borderline Personality Disorder, and for years have found ways to 'kill', 'hide', 'hang-up' emotions. It came from too many hard lessons in childhood. I've asked him before if he still loves me when I'm not around and he tells me "you're crazy, it's not a jacket I can just hang up on a peg when I feel like it." but I realized that I CAN. The emotions aren't exactly what keeps me with him. It's the possibility (dream) of a brighter, more stable future. A partner who loves me 10% more, 60% of the time. He accepts me completely and has never asked me to change anything, break contact with exes I've remained friends with, give up "my" time to see him, ect. I don't think that NC would be hard for me emotionally so much as he's become so ingrained in my life/mind/whatever that it's more like breaking a habit than healing from a failed love. I've been able to keep completely platonic, above-board, mature friendships with most of my exes because of the type of person I date. I only question it in this situation because he has, in the past, rejected my ideals of "leaving" him. And I've never been part of an A, from either side. So I don't know the rules or anything..
Furious Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Ducky I've read both your threads. I'm sorry but he is not your friend. Friends don't ask you to have sex with his wife. Friends don't lead you on and use you. Truthfully I think he and his wife are sick people. Get into therapy and be your own best friend. 7
whichwayisup Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 The thing is, you're basing everything on an affair setting relationship. Not a realistic one. He hasn't seen you at your worst, nor you him. Life has not tested the two of you as a out in the open real couple. One on one. I agree with Furious. Please do some counselling. This whole situation sounds very unhealthy.
Author Ducky23 Posted June 21, 2012 Author Posted June 21, 2012 The thing is, you're basing everything on an affair setting relationship. Not a realistic one. He hasn't seen you at your worst, nor you him. Life has not tested the two of you as a out in the open real couple. One on one. I agree with Furious. Please do some counselling. This whole situation sounds very unhealthy. Unfortunately, yes he has seen me at my worst. He held my hand through the therapy I was going through last year and was on the spot as soon as my world shattered and I didn't know what to do. I lay in his lap, drunk and crying and screaming over the injustices of the world. He watched me hit rock bottom, drunk all the time with my kids not at home with me, taking pills I didn't need to kill the feelings I didn't know how to deal with. It's not been all candlelight and roses and sweet words and romance. It has been rough and sometimes ugly. And only a few times have those hard parts come from his M. If I needed him, for anything, he was there. Our financial situations are out in the open and I know of the accounts he has that she has no clue about/can't see. We have a full-disclosure clause in our agreement and I've never caught him lying/hiding/being shady with me in any way. He'll hand me the key to his car before her because there are things he doesn't want her to find in there, I know the passcode to his phone, and he knows mine. He says I have a don't-ask-don't-tell policy that he has only ever once indulged in to make a point to me. And I do, but I never realized it until he pointed it out. I'm a very private and reserved person IRL and I only share information with people I deem important. I don't trust many people and I don't really share personal information without being asked. Sorry, I was starting to ramble.. The point was that he has seen me at my absolute worst, held my hand through it, was there when I woke up screaming/crying to console me, even if I called him at 4am on a work day because I needed someone to talk to. It can't be called a 'true' relationship while W is in the picture, but if you took her out, we have had a very full, mature, complex R. It isn't based solely on sex, nor is it based solely on emotion. It's a balancing act that I've struggled to figure out. And he has been extremely patient as I've learned to become a person in the world again. He taught me not to be afraid of walking out my front door. He stood next to me when I had panic attacks. He saw the side of me that nobody else (including my xH) has ever seen. And he's stayed around, never commenting, never judging, simply allowing me to move freely and being my support when I needed it. Perhaps this is why losing him as a friend as well would be so hard for me? I very much equate me getting 'better' to his persistence and patience, his love and acceptance. I don't think that I am a person whom he has molded to be what's 'preferable' to him, but has shown me how to become my own person and how to be strong again.
frozensprouts Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Op, to me, he sounds much more like a guy who's taking advantage of a woman in a vulnerable place in her life. if he were any kind of friend, he wouldn't want to hurt you, and that's just what he is doing. 2
nofool4u Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 I can't say I care for his marriage at all. I probably would if she treated him better and didn't take all that he's given her for granted. And you know she treated him poorly and took him for granted how?
MissBee Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Ducky........the whole thing, mm and his wife and you, it's all one big cluster of dysfunction. You need to be alone and get into some therapy and get it together. Being involved with them/him is going to push you over the edge. I've been around here a while and not a whole lot shocks me, but your story does. It's the kind of stuff that illustrates no boundaries held by anyone in the triangle. It's not love, nor even like in a friendship, it's dysfunction and makes it even more risky is your history of drinking, drugging and not having your kids for whatever reason? How can you hope that this man who is using you is going to save you? He IS using you and you are using him and his wife as a distraction from what ever your issues are. Get off this merry go round ducky. I agree. I don't see anything mature and complex about it...I see complicated and dysfunctional. I agree MM and this whole mess isn't helping ducky to be a better person or manage her life and issues at all, it's just adding to the chaos. I understand you have been through a lot and you also have BPD, and I can't pretend to know what it is like, but I do know that it makes it hard to manage one's relationships and more susceptible to attracting dysfunctional scenarios. This whole thing sounds like a mess, what if your daughter was the one telling you about this? In any case, no you can't be friends post-A. I know it's hard for you to trust people, but there are trustworthy people out there and I don't believe the only person on earth that you can trust is this MM. You need people around you who don't add more drama to your life...he isn't one and this situation isn't one. I suggest, like other have, that you do go to counseling and tell the counselor about your relationship and see what he/she has to say about it. The relationship seems to be the least of your concerns as LG has pointed out, and is just a distraction from other stuff it seems you need to get a handle on. 2
2sunny Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Okay, so mostly what I'm getting is that he shouldn't stay friends with me in the event that he decides to work on/fix his marriage. But with or without me in the picture, he's leaving her. She's the only one who doesn't know it. It's just not public knowledge that he has someone (me) on the side. Bee, he's a soldier, and they call each other 'Joes', it's just something I've become accustomed to doing as well, coming from a military family. And I suppose you've gotta be right about friends not whispering in the shadows.. I just finished a major overhaul on my 'friends' because I got tired of the BS drama that came with those women who DID whisper in the shadows. I'm not so mich worried about losing friends in the process, or disappointing the ones that want to see us together, I guess mostly I'm worried about creating awkward social settings in the case of NC. I've never really been the type to approve of cheating or affairs, so I've never been in this situation before and am quite baffled as to how to go about regaining my freedom from this horrible situation. I never until recently realized that when he spoke of D, he didn't mean rightnow, but when he had his finances where he wanted them. Which has taken way more time than I ever thought. My friends never have a need to whisper about me - mainly because I don't engage in behavior that is concerning or hurtful. You create this drama by how YOU are participating. Change jobs - and move far away from him... Bet you won't though. How do you live with yourself? The answer to your question is NO.
TooInvolved2 Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Maybe some xAPs can be friends. But I doubt most can. And I'm confident none should. Part of me can understand why you'd want to though.
Recommended Posts