Spark1111 Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Spark You are so right about FOO (family of Origin), issues. The type of family dynamic we are raised in shapes us, this is where we first learn coping and communication skills. Who we are is a direct result of who we were as children. And sadly some children never grow up. Even sadder? They do not know how to. The saddest? They do not even realize they HAVE to.
Furious Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Even sadder? They do not know how to. The saddest? They do not even realize they HAVE to. And these man/woman children seem to marry their mommy or daddy and then rebel like pimple faced 15 years olds.
96nole Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 And these man/woman children seem to marry their mommy or daddy and then rebel like pimple faced 15 years olds. Holy crap! I don't know how many time over the years she said I was like her dad. And in many ways I am. He and I always got along great. (not that I give a crap about her parents now). And boy did she rebel against me. Funny story: My mother was at the doctor for a check up a few weeks ago. She told him the story of what's going on and told him about the cruise. At that point he was checking her blood pressure. He stopped. Took the cuff off her arm. Went over to his chair and just sat down with an amazed look on his face. He then said: "Well, I guess someone was tired of being a good girl." 1
Author SomedayDig Posted June 21, 2012 Author Posted June 21, 2012 Here's a question to those BS's who have gone through what I'm going through, but first a little commentary about me and language. I'm what people describe as just a nice guy. I'm the guy that anyone can talk to and that's just the way I've always been. Mr. Popular in school and everything. I've always been humbled to be in that position and never used it to take advantage of people. That said, I do have a pretty bad habit that I don't bring out in front of those not in my nearest circle: I swear. I swear a lot. It's my FOO stuff and I'm not proud of it. That said, sometimes when talking to my wife about the affair, I find it difficult to use terms like "make love" or "have sex" because that's just not how I see it. Instead I say things more like, "So, the time you went there to F him" or "When you had his c*** in your mouth you never thought this is wrong?" I'm torn on this for a couple reasons. First, I don't like to make her feel any worse than she already does, but this is just where I am with my language regarding this stuff. Second, using language as such describes...to me at least...the dirty, deceitful sh_t she was doing. It wasn't pretty and I don't think my language should be pretty when talking about it. What say you? I understand this veers a little off topic, but it's my thread AND it's an issue that came up last night during our nightly talk.
96nole Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Here's a question to those BS's who have gone through what I'm going through, but first a little commentary about me and language. I'm what people describe as just a nice guy. I'm the guy that anyone can talk to and that's just the way I've always been. Mr. Popular in school and everything. I've always been humbled to be in that position and never used it to take advantage of people. That said, I do have a pretty bad habit that I don't bring out in front of those not in my nearest circle: I swear. I swear a lot. It's my FOO stuff and I'm not proud of it. That said, sometimes when talking to my wife about the affair, I find it difficult to use terms like "make love" or "have sex" because that's just not how I see it. Instead I say things more like, "So, the time you went there to F him" or "When you had his c*** in your mouth you never thought this is wrong?" I'm torn on this for a couple reasons. First, I don't like to make her feel any worse than she already does, but this is just where I am with my language regarding this stuff. Second, using language as such describes...to me at least...the dirty, deceitful sh_t she was doing. It wasn't pretty and I don't think my language should be pretty when talking about it. What say you? I understand this veers a little off topic, but it's my thread AND it's an issue that came up last night during our nightly talk. We're very similar and I also have a bit of a potty mouth. I'm assuming your wife doesn't like the language you're using. But you also don't like that another man's c*ck was in her mouth. Or that she then f*cked him. She's just going to have to accept the language. Let's measure this on the grand scheme of things, you saying that she f*cked someone else is no where near as bad as her actually f*cking someone else. Oh, and since it's your f*cking thread you can veer it off in any d*mn direction you f*cking well please. OOOPs, there goes my potty mouth again.:lmao:
2sunny Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 Here's a question to those BS's who have gone through what I'm going through, but first a little commentary about me and language. I'm what people describe as just a nice guy. I'm the guy that anyone can talk to and that's just the way I've always been. Mr. Popular in school and everything. I've always been humbled to be in that position and never used it to take advantage of people. That said, I do have a pretty bad habit that I don't bring out in front of those not in my nearest circle: I swear. I swear a lot. It's my FOO stuff and I'm not proud of it. That said, sometimes when talking to my wife about the affair, I find it difficult to use terms like "make love" or "have sex" because that's just not how I see it. Instead I say things more like, "So, the time you went there to F him" or "When you had his c*** in your mouth you never thought this is wrong?" I'm torn on this for a couple reasons. First, I don't like to make her feel any worse than she already does, but this is just where I am with my language regarding this stuff. Second, using language as such describes...to me at least...the dirty, deceitful sh_t she was doing. It wasn't pretty and I don't think my language should be pretty when talking about it. What say you? I understand this veers a little off topic, but it's my thread AND it's an issue that came up last night during our nightly talk. I think it's appropriate language IF you're mad about what SHE did! Why not call it as YOU feel? You should! It's REAL! And ONLY IF she had "feelings" for him would she describe it as "making live" - which she says she DIDN'T have feelings - so which is it! Either she made love or she F-Ed him! But she lies - so why would she say they made love IF they "just @uckked"? The liar can be depended up onto DO what they do best= LIE!
Author SomedayDig Posted June 21, 2012 Author Posted June 21, 2012 96, you made me laugh with your last sentence I almost spit out my pizza. And that, would have been F'ng tragic!! 2sunny...that's exactly my point. I'm mad about what she did and I'm not going to censor myself at any time. I won't call her names or anything, but calling it what it is seems perfectly logical. While technically she never used the term "making love" she knows what I call it and will only call it having sex or "going down" on him. While the language itself doesn't upset her, I think it is simply the context with which I use it so eloquently. She doesn't get angry at me about it, but I can tell it stabs right into her heart when I say it. It ain't pretty, but then again - none of this crap is.
96nole Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 96, you made me laugh with your last sentence I almost spit out my pizza. And that, would have been F'ng tragic!! Damn Straight!!! That would be considered pizza abuse.
2sunny Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 She MAY not actually be admitting to herself the extent of what she participated in - or what she's done. If it were me - I'd want to test her to "see" what kind of emotions she attached to it. IF she describes it as "making love" then there IS emotion attached! IF she describes it as "sex with him" then maybe she doesn't attach emotion to her actions. Really - I (as a woman) always described sex with my "sex buddy" as - "I had sex with him" - mainly because I kept ALL my FEELINGS out of that deal (the agreement was "sex buddy" - but that's NOT how I described it with my H when we were married - we "made love". The words we CHOOSE does have a way of revealing "what we do or don't FEEL" - the attachment of emotions is difficult to COVER when one picks certain words to describe things. That's why I am always acutely aware of a posters temperament here - its based soley on "the words they choose" to describe their situation. It's very telling in determining what stance a person portrays her - controller, victim, rescuer etc... 2
drifter777 Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 The issues, almost always, trace back to FOO. What is FOO? Newsflash: There are no perfect families.Dig, dig, dig, go deeply and painfully untill you get to YOUR source of insecurity and unhappiness. Our first relationships, those with mommy and daddy, will define all future relationships unless we introspect and learn where our chink in our relational armor lies. Our spouses deserve no less. Ok, this sounds fine as a life goal. Why do you put this into the context of working through the pain caused by infidelity? It's the WS who needs to dig deeply into their source of insecurity and unhappiness to change their cheating ways. A BS has an immediate need for emotional rescue, restoration of self-esteem, and finding a path to personal recovery. Examining their life to find their particular obstacles to more peace and happiness should probably be deferred until the trauma caused by betrayal is (mostly) resolved. It's the reason a Dr. works to stop the bleeding before discussing ways to lead a healthier life.
Spark1111 Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 What is FOO? Ok, this sounds fine as a life goal. Why do you put this into the context of working through the pain caused by infidelity? It's the WS who needs to dig deeply into their source of insecurity and unhappiness to change their cheating ways. A BS has an immediate need for emotional rescue, restoration of self-esteem, and finding a path to personal recovery. Examining their life to find their particular obstacles to more peace and happiness should probably be deferred until the trauma caused by betrayal is (mostly) resolved. It's the reason a Dr. works to stop the bleeding before discussing ways to lead a healthier life. True! But I believe infidelity hurts the sensitive, those with abandonment issues, those with some sort of insecurity MORE than others. We are still posting at LS and elsewhere. Why? I learned a lot in IC regarding WHY THIS ESPISODE WAS SO PAINFUL FOR ME, and that was important to my healing. I had family trauma as a child I overcame(or so I thought). I was anti-marriage and pro-career. I married the only man I loved enough to feel SAFE with and sacrificed too much of me to support him and us and the family and home we had together. I also have never had an unsuccessful relationship. I also never received less than an "A" in any course I have taken. So not only did I have to deal with infidelity and the pain of that, I also had to deal with my past, my ego, my pride, the way I viewed the world and the way I have always viewed myself and my relationship with others. The pain of all of this was immense. The affair triggered so many childhood issues I thought I had dealt with successfully. Guess what? I was wrong. Many people deal with the pain of infidelity. For some, that pain may trigger OTHER ISSUES they have never examined from childhood. I was one of them and it took a lot of work to separate the two and deal with them separately....and together.
Spark1111 Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 And these man/woman children seem to marry their mommy or daddy and then rebel like pimple faced 15 years olds. There is a very old theory, recently resurrected, that says we marry a person who resembles a better version of the parent we had the least successful relationship with. Why? Because we are trying to heal old psychic wounds from childhood. Now that can create a loving secure relationship. Or, it can breed toxicity if we ourselves keep projecting our childhood anger and unmet demands onto our unsuspecting spouse. Something to think about, no? Especially when we find ourselves attracted to the same "type" over and over again, even if that type proves unhealthy for us in the long run.
Spark1111 Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Here's a question to those BS's who have gone through what I'm going through, but first a little commentary about me and language. I'm what people describe as just a nice guy. I'm the guy that anyone can talk to and that's just the way I've always been. Mr. Popular in school and everything. I've always been humbled to be in that position and never used it to take advantage of people. That said, I do have a pretty bad habit that I don't bring out in front of those not in my nearest circle: I swear. I swear a lot. It's my FOO stuff and I'm not proud of it. That said, sometimes when talking to my wife about the affair, I find it difficult to use terms like "make love" or "have sex" because that's just not how I see it. Instead I say things more like, "So, the time you went there to F him" or "When you had his c*** in your mouth you never thought this is wrong?" I'm torn on this for a couple reasons. First, I don't like to make her feel any worse than she already does, but this is just where I am with my language regarding this stuff. Second, using language as such describes...to me at least...the dirty, deceitful sh_t she was doing. It wasn't pretty and I don't think my language should be pretty when talking about it. What say you? I understand this veers a little off topic, but it's my thread AND it's an issue that came up last night during our nightly talk. I think it is Mars versus Venus. And I think a man,angry, would use those words under the same occasion. Two weeks after dday, when I had intercepted text words of undying love? passion? promise of future commitment? we met at the park and had it at. He said, "So what? I f#d her!" I was shocked since that didn't sound like love or romance to me. Question for you: Is that a male's way of minimizing the sex act? Reducing it to a simple biological act devoid of any emotion? I think that is what he was doing. Did he mean that? Not sure.
2sunny Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 True! But I believe infidelity hurts the sensitive, those with abandonment issues, those with some sort of insecurity MORE than others. We are still posting at LS and elsewhere. Why? I learned a lot in IC regarding WHY THIS ESPISODE WAS SO PAINFUL FOR ME, and that was important to my healing. I had family trauma as a child I overcame(or so I thought). I was anti-marriage and pro-career. I married the only man I loved enough to feel SAFE with and sacrificed too much of me to support him and us and the family and home we had together. I also have never had an unsuccessful relationship. I also never received less than an "A" in any course I have taken. So not only did I have to deal with infidelity and the pain of that, I also had to deal with my past, my ego, my pride, the way I viewed the world and the way I have always viewed myself and my relationship with others. The pain of all of this was immense. The affair triggered so many childhood issues I thought I had dealt with successfully. Guess what? I was wrong. Many people deal with the pain of infidelity. For some, that pain may trigger OTHER ISSUES they have never examined from childhood. I was one of them and it took a lot of work to separate the two and deal with them separately....and together. Wow - I could have written this. When I finally faced my truth and fears with a fantastic trauma counselor - that is when I felt freedom. Freedom from my past and what I had "learned" backwards growing up. Once I UNLEARNED it all - and learned a NEW way that worked for ME - THAT is when I started LIVING again! I no longer allow others to determine what works for ME. I no longer "go along with things that make me sad at me"! 1
Author SomedayDig Posted June 22, 2012 Author Posted June 22, 2012 True! But I believe infidelity hurts the sensitive, those with abandonment issues, those with some sort of insecurity MORE than others. Funny you bring this up, so I'll tip my hat. At age 3 my biological father walked out of the house and I never saw him again. Ever. He lives about 15 miles from me...that I know. Why? He cheated on my Mother with the secretary of their lawyer. My Mother got remarried a few years later and the guy was a real douche. I mean, I was psychologically abused til I walked out of the house at age 18. He cheated on my mother quite a few times as he was out of town for work a ton. I married my high school sweetheart back in '94. We we separated with a week to go for our 1st anniversary. Anyone care to guess why? Yep. She cheated on me with about 3 other guys in total. We had no children and I hated how she never told me anything about the affairs. Never one iota of truth or confession really. I dated a bit between '95 and '99 when I met my current wife. We clicked so wonderfully, that I knew she was the one. And she was. Until she betrayed me the way that I had been betrayed my entire life. At age 44 it really kind of sucks to know that your entire life has been filled with such stupid f'ng bullsnot. It's a wonder I haven't cheated or killed anyone by now. Question for you: Is that a male's way of minimizing the sex act? Reducing it to a simple biological act devoid of any emotion? For me, it's more about anger of the act. I can show anger without raising my voice and I do so with the wording of a sentence. Like when I confronted the xOM on the phone that night. I could have screamed "Stay away from my wife you a__hole!!" But I didn't. I spoke in almost a whisper and said "If you come near my wife again I will kill you...do you understand what I'm saying to you." Both sentences mean pretty much the same thing, however the first one with all the rage and yelling doesn't have the impact as the second. At least that's how I see it. Me saying "F---" versus "having sex" is my way of showing anger without yelling. I don't like yelling. I had too much of that in my life (see first response...)
beenburned Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 SD, I did the same thing you did with the use of the f word, even though I'm an old fashioned good girl. My H even agreed with me that the terminology was correct in his case. But, like someone else said, listen very carefully to the terminology your wife uses when discussing the affair. Most WS's try to lessen the BS's hurt by minimizing their actions with the AP.(or outright lying if they are determined to stay in the marriage) As a woman, I do find it hard to believe any woman would be capable of having a 5 year affair, and NOT be emotionally attached to the AP.(despite what she says)
Steen719 Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 SD, I did the same thing you did with the use of the f word, even though I'm an old fashioned good girl. My H even agreed with me that the terminology was correct in his case. But, like someone else said, listen very carefully to the terminology your wife uses when discussing the affair. Most WS's try to lessen the BS's hurt by minimizing their actions with the AP.(or outright lying if they are determined to stay in the marriage) As a woman, I do find it hard to believe any woman would be capable of having a 5 year affair, and NOT be emotionally attached to the AP.(despite what she says) I'm sorry, OP, but I have to say I agree with beenburned. I cannot imagine I could be involved just sexually with a man for 5 years and have no emotional attachment. Of course, this is just a personal view, but I believe most women have some kind of emotional attachment unless they are getting paid for it or doing it for a reason, like marrying a much older man to gain his inheritance and then of course, it is still for money.
Author SomedayDig Posted June 22, 2012 Author Posted June 22, 2012 (edited) Yeah, the not emotionally attached is one of the more difficult aspects for me to grasp, and not only because she's a woman but because she's a human. Be that as it may, I haven't said a few things about her past mostly because they're not an excuse for her behavior nor are they reasons to cheat, however I wonder about the non-emotion toward the xOM. Although she hasn't said it outright, I believe that my wife was molested as a young girl. Her older sister was and I have reasons to believe that she was as well. Why does this matter? Well, a couple months ago she had pretty close to a nervous breakdown when during one of our nightly talks I simply looked at her and asked, "So tell me what happened to you." Well, I was NOT prepared for what I heard. Promiscuity in her first year and a half of college gave her not so good of a name. However, during a party on campus, she was gang raped by a group of guys. It started out that she was with one guy but a couple more jumped in. Tragic as it was and still is to her, I cannot let that be any reason for her affair. Ever. What I can do is look at her entire past and believe that she was able to carry on this affair without "love". Her promiscuity in college was described by her as "I felt if they would have sex with me then they must have liked me" and also "I used sex for attention". Again, I'm not excusing her actions in the least bit. I am, however, able to understand the complexities of the human condition as they effect our versions of "reality". EDIT: She has never once used her college experiences or other things to blame the affair on. Edited June 22, 2012 by SomedayDig clarification
2sunny Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 She's still using sex in inappropriate ways. Her past may very well define the person she is - but it DOESN'T mean YOU need to put up with HER bad behavior! My gut says she's TOTALLY lying about her feelings for her OM. Either that or she doesn't have one bit of respect for the marriage. Unless she gets honest - there is no marriage.
frozensprouts Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 if your wife was abused and sexually assaulted, she may view sex very differently than many people do. It's possible that for her, it became easier to deal with what was being done to her if she removed any emotional involvement from sex, while, at the same time, sex became , in her eyes, the sole measure of her worth as a human being. She may have learned to feel that she is not worth much, and having sex gave her a way to feel self worth ( "if this other guy wants to have sex with me, i must be worth something)... None of this excuses her behavior, but perhaps it could explain it... counseling can help her figure it all out, but it will be very hard for her, as some of her life experiences have been very painful ones...she will really need your support to get through all of this 2
Furious Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 The stereotype that women have affairs for emotional attachment is not necessarily true in some cases. Just like the stereotype that men get into affairs purely for the sex, is not always the case. Your wife may be telling you the truth here. 1
Author SomedayDig Posted June 22, 2012 Author Posted June 22, 2012 2sunny...oh, she knows that she used sex inappropriately. I'm glad she recognizes it. Too bad it was 5 years too late. Frozen...exactly. It doesn't excuse her behavior but explains her motivations a bit to me. She starts IC when we get back from a family reunion the beginning of July. I know it is going to be difficult for her. Hell, I might as well say that I was sexually abused between 8 and 10 by a babysitter. I went through a lot of counseling back in the early 90's. Glad I did as I have a much different outlook on sexuality now. Perhaps that is one of the reasons I have struggled with this so much...because I did so much work to see what true love and a true sexual relationship was about. And I was hurt yet again
Author SomedayDig Posted June 22, 2012 Author Posted June 22, 2012 The stereotype that women have affairs for emotional attachment is not necessarily true in some cases. Just like the stereotype that men get into affairs purely for the sex, is not always the case. Your wife may be telling you the truth here. I truly believe she is.
frozensprouts Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 2sunny...oh, she knows that she used sex inappropriately. I'm glad she recognizes it. Too bad it was 5 years too late. Frozen...exactly. It doesn't excuse her behavior but explains her motivations a bit to me. She starts IC when we get back from a family reunion the beginning of July. I know it is going to be difficult for her. Hell, I might as well say that I was sexually abused between 8 and 10 by a babysitter. I went through a lot of counseling back in the early 90's. Glad I did as I have a much different outlook on sexuality now. Perhaps that is one of the reasons I have struggled with this so much...because I did so much work to see what true love and a true sexual relationship was about. And I was hurt yet again maybe she never dealt with her abuse, and it stayed deep inside her, and slowly poisoned her...she may welll have had a deep sadness inside of her that no one can ever fix except for her, no matter how much she may wish it otherwise if she is able to derive benefit from counseling, and if you two are able to work through all the fallout from her affair, then you may well find that you have a much stronger and happier marriage, as she will be truly happy with herself, and there will finally be real honesty I really hope that's the way it works out for you...with hard owrk ( and some luck) it can:) 1
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