RedRobin Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Who are you to judge what I am looking for in a relationship? I do want a deep emotional connection. I have had that before in long term relationships. Deep emotional connections are not mutually exclusive with romantic relationships-- I have deep emotional connections with many people in my life. good for you. Put your money where your mouth is and be upfront with the men you are dating. You don't want to do that? Then look yourself in the mirror and just accept you can't handle being honest... no need to come here asking for advice on how to deceive others.
Pierre Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Deep emotional connections are not mutually exclusive with romantic relationships-- I have deep emotional connections with many people in my life. Confused! You do justice to your name quite well. You cannot have a deep emotional connection with these men when you neglect to say to them they are part of a quartet. That in itself creates a wall. It is also likely you never had a deep connection and you do not know what you are missing. Maybe your view of a deep connection is not truly a deep connection.
Pierre Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 I'd argue that there is room in one's heart for more than one. Some very rare individuals do that and also have sex with multiple people. Not for me... There is room for more than one when it comes to love, but these are different forms of love. For example philandering men love both the wife at home and the concubine on the side. But, these are generally different forms of love. One is romantic love and the other is long term attachment love. However, I still say there is only limited room for the deep initial romantic love. this is the type of love that occupies your mind 24/7 and where no one else is can compete. I suspect multi daters never get to this stage.
RedRobin Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 There is room for more than one when it comes to love, but these are different forms of love. For example philandering men love both the wife at home and the concubine on the side. But, these are generally different forms of love. One is romantic love and the other is long term attachment love. However, I still say there is only limited room for the deep initial romantic love. this is the type of love that occupies your mind 24/7 and where no one else is can compete. I suspect multi daters never get to this stage. yes, I've observed the above. Some find it very difficult to put aside the initial excitement of 'romantic' love in favor of long term attachment love. The only reason I mention it is because I really do have respect for people who are openly trying to navigate these things with full-disclosure for all involved. My other issue with multi-dating is that the mere act of multi-dating keeps this deep attachment from happening, like you said. Others have confessed that this is the reason they multi-dated. That, for whatever reason, they didn't trust themselves to see one person at a time, so they had to enforce the distance that comes from seeing multiple people simultaneously. Now, if that is what they need to do to protect themselves and get through some life crisis or manage some deep seated emotional issues. Ok. I can be sympathetic. Again, the onus is on them to inform the other people they are seeing though. And clue them in. I'm really having a hard time understanding why that is so difficult for some people.
oaks Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 FT: I am actually reasonable. I understand planning a few dates when you know nothing about the OLD people. However, from that point one should quickly thin the herd out to perhaps a couple of people and then immediately go down to THE ONE or if there is no ONE start all over again. Within the OLD context and when starting from scratch that makes sense. If you start talking sense like this I might have to read more of your posts.
RedRobin Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 If you start talking sense like this I might have to read more of your posts. ok, so how many dates do you go on before you thin out the herd?
fishtaco Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Confused! You do justice to your name quite well. You cannot have a deep emotional connection with these men when you neglect to say to them they are part of a quartet. That in itself creates a wall. It is also likely you never had a deep connection and you do not know what you are missing. Maybe your view of a deep connection is not truly a deep connection. This is what I'm talking about. You claim my post was a good post, and immediately you post something that is conflicting and still sticking to your own biased assumptions. I created the deep emotional connection with "the one", while we were both multidating other people. That's why I felt the "magic", when in the beginning, I was only moderately attracted to her. My connection with her grew from moderate to magic while multidating. Because sometimes, the contrast with other people you're seeing at the time really bring out a person's qualities. As far as I'm concerned, this is just typical multidating, or "dating" to us multidaters. Maybe one out of these four men will reach exclusivity, maybe it'll turn into "magic" just like my experience with "the one", or maybe not. If not, then these four will be gone, and maybe in the next group of four she will find the one. Rules are simple, when you are casual, you have no right telling the other person what they can and cannot do. If you want to have the right to tell the other person they shouldn't kiss someone else or whatever, well, upgrade, because guess what? you are no longer casual. That's all it is. What's cheating? There are open marriages out there where they both sleep around. That's not cheating. In that case sex with someone that's not your partner is NOT considered cheating. Why? Because cheating not about sex. It's about a broken promise. I promised to be exclusive, but I wasn't. When you are causal, there are no promises. That's why it's casual. If you want promises, upgrade, because guess what? you are no longer casual. Is c0nfused88 exclusive with any of the four men? Nope. Did any of the four men ask for exclusivity? Nope. Well then they all can do whatever they want to do. Casual dating is casual. I don't understand why this concept is so difficult to understand. You know I play guitar. Since you don't, that means you suck. That's the attitude you and RedRobin have. Not everyone is into guitar, or want to spend their evenings plucking and pushing strings at home. Why can't you two just say "that's not for me" like everyone else and be done with it? Why do you expect everyone in the world to have the same perspective as you? The intolerance boggles my mind.
RedRobin Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 This is what I'm talking about. You claim my post was a good post, and immediately you post something that is conflicting and still sticking to your own biased assumptions. I created the deep emotional connection with "the one", while we were both multidating other people. That's why I felt the "magic", when in the beginning, I was only moderately attracted to her. My connection with her grew from moderate to magic while multidating. Because sometimes, the contrast with other people you're seeing at the time really bring out a person's qualities. As far as I'm concerned, this is just typical multidating, or "dating" to us multidaters. Maybe one out of these four men will reach exclusivity, maybe it'll turn into "magic" just like my experience with "the one", or maybe not. If not, then these four will be gone, and maybe in the next group of four she will find the one. Rules are simple, when you are casual, you have no right telling the other person what they can and cannot do. If you want to have the right to tell the other person they shouldn't kiss someone else or whatever, well, upgrade, because guess what? you are no longer casual. That's all it is. What's cheating? There are open marriages out there where they both sleep around. That's not cheating. In that case sex with someone that's not your partner is NOT considered cheating. Why? Because cheating not about sex. It's about a broken promise. I promised to be exclusive, but I wasn't. When you are causal, there are no promises. That's why it's casual. If you want promises, upgrade, because guess what? you are no longer casual. Is c0nfused88 exclusive with any of the four men? Nope. Did any of the four men ask for exclusivity? Nope. Well then they all can do whatever they want to do. Casual dating is casual. I don't understand why this concept is so difficult to understand. You know I play guitar. Since you don't, that means you suck. That's the attitude you and RedRobin have. Not everyone is into guitar, or want to spend their evenings plucking and pushing strings at home. Why can't you two just say "that's not for me" like everyone else and be done with it? Why do you expect everyone in the world to have the same perspective as you? The intolerance boggles my mind. noone is telling the OP she should be dictating the lives of the men she is seeing. However, you and she are placing the burden of honesty on the men she is seeing. Since she and you are here, and they are not, I'm going to call BS everytime. Why BS? Because it isn't that f*cking difficult to be upfront. All the little machinations and justifications you work yourself around show ME what kind of relationship you'd be in with the so-called 'one' someday. One where you expect them to ask the questions, take the risks, provide full-disclosure... you name it... without YOU lifting a damn finger. this is what I find so repulsive. (FYI... I've played guitar before. good for you. The guitar has no emotions to play with)
oaks Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 ok, so how many dates do you go on before you thin out the herd? I'm not sure that referring to a group of attractive women as a herd is the best choice of collective noun! My personal rule is no more than 5 dates with any one woman before then deciding to only date just one (or none). However, that's a maximum rather than a target. In practice it's never got to 5 or even 4. There has been a case where I had 3rd dates with 2 women before telling one of them that I didn't want to take things further, but that only happened once. Typically it's 1 date or 2 dates, and in practice it's as often the woman who doesn't want to date me as the other way around (or it's mutual).
RedRobin Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 I'm not sure that referring to a group of attractive women as a herd is the best choice of collective noun! My personal rule is no more than 5 dates with any one woman before then deciding to only date just one (or none). However, that's a maximum rather than a target. In practice it's never got to 5 or even 4. There has been a case where I had 3rd dates with 2 women before telling one of them that I didn't want to take things further, but that only happened once. Typically it's 1 date or 2 dates, and in practice it's as often the woman who doesn't want to date me as the other way around (or it's mutual). alright. Since I know you are talking about the OLD world, you are off the multi-dating 'hook'. Not that you need my validation. Still. One of the things I was most uncomfortable with while doing OLD was the possibility that one would ask me out when I had a date with another. I can manage that for one date max (see my prior post)... this is when I'm meeting complete strangers, like I have with the cold approaches recently. Even then, it felt kind of yucky and I felt the need to tell them I was meeting someone else when I had to decline another invitation. What you and others aren't seeing (but likely suspect) is that I've been the 'victim' of multi-daters who claim to be exclusive but aren't (aka the 'working toward exclusivity' deal-e-o). Also have been the 'victim' of those who claim to be one place but are another. Of course, by saying this, someone is bound to say "he's just not that into you'... but I disagree. Every man I've dumped for dishonesty was quite upset about it... and appeared to work quite diligently to try to get me back in good graces. This is why I'm sad. Sad for the multi-daters who have lost the chance for a real connection with someone because they lie. Sad for those they multi-date without full disclosure.
oaks Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 alright. Since I know you are talking about the OLD world, you are off the multi-dating 'hook'. Yes, this is from OLD, but please don't feel the need to re-define multi-dating to exclude me. What I just described is dating several people in parallel; it is multi-dating! I am a multi-dater (or at least, I have been - I'm not currently dating anybody), and not ashamed of being one. What you and others aren't seeing (but likely suspect) is that I've been the 'victim' of multi-daters who claim to be exclusive but aren't (aka the 'working toward exclusivity' deal-e-o). I think I would describe such a person as a liar and/or a cheater. Not because he was multi-dating, but because he was lying to you and/or cheating on you. I think I recall you describing all multi-daters as such, which I take objection to, but while I can't deny you your experiences I do suggest that not all people who multi-date are like your exes. 1
RedRobin Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Yes, this is from OLD, but please don't feel the need to re-define multi-dating to exclude me. What I just described is dating several people in parallel; it is multi-dating! I am a multi-dater (or at least, I have been - I'm not currently dating anybody), and not ashamed of being one. ok I think I would describe such a person as a liar and/or a cheater. Not because he was multi-dating, but because he was lying to you and/or cheating on you. I think I recall you describing all multi-daters as such, which I take objection to, but while I can't deny you your experiences I do suggest that not all people who multi-date are like your exes. These aren't exes. These are men who I have tried to establish a relationship with... all of them while I was OLD. Their fuzzy logic and need to conceal are what kept things from moving forward. I suspect this is what makes the internet dating industry so lucrative. Leave the impression there is 'hope' of finding someone there, but create a system that sabotages any real connections quite effectively. The fact that my experience with this behavior was confined solely to OLD is why I also despise OLD... and consider it the perpetual haven for those who have honesty issues... and yes, have a strong tendency to lean towards multi-dating. I have no problems linking the two (obviously). It was only after coming to LS that this behavior was given a name (multi-dating) and was fully fleshed out as a style of interacting that seems to actively avoid full-disclosure as long as humanly possible. I call this behavior lying. It wouldn't be 'cheating' (convenient, eh?) because neither have officially made a commitment. It is lying just the same.
snug.bunny Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 My thoughts are this. If I'm dating you and we surpass the threshold and I discover you're still canoodling other women, trust is broken and relationship is dead.
oaks Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 These aren't exes. My bad. I thought you were saying that you thought you and they were exclusive, and made a small leap and assumed that meant you were (or thought you were) in a relationship with them... I call this behavior lying. It wouldn't be 'cheating' (convenient, eh?) because neither have officially made a commitment. It is lying just the same. ... which is also why I was describing the behaviour as cheating. But, no (or yes), if you're not in a relationship with someone then you can't really be cheated on! Saying you're exclusively dating only one person when, in fact, you are dating other people clearly is lying, yes.
mysteryscape Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 So, snug bunny -- what is the "threshold" to you? How do you establish that it has been passed and both people know? And what is "canoodling" to you? How does all this get known -- telepathy? Or some other method? I'm curious to know.
fishtaco Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 My thoughts are this. If I'm dating you and we surpass the threshold and I discover you're still canoodling other women, trust is broken and relationship is dead. That's perfectly fine, and I highly recommend everyone to be the same way. However, the problem is everyone have a different "threshold". Your threshold most likely is NOT the same as someone else's. That's why multidaters like to use the term "exclusive". Dating, seeing each other, or even boyfriend/girlfriends are terms open to interpretations. "Exclusive" it means just that, you can't interpret it any other way. So I would give you high-five, if in addition to what you said, you also always engage in an exclusive talk first, doesn't matter who brings it up, before assuming exclusivity. These rules for multidating aren't for predatory reasons. They are for self protection, for managing ones expectations, and to cut down on miscommunications. The line in the sand is exclusivity. You are assumed to be casual until the talk. See... very simple. Some people may find that too business like and cut and dry. But given the whole Venus/Mars thing, communication is difficult as it is, I would say cut and dry is a good thing. Plus ambiguity is the breeding ground for mind games. Not all ambiguous situations happen because someone is pulling a fast one on you, but if someone wants to play games, it is to his/her best interest to create ambiguity. Again, cut and dry wins, unless you actually want to play games.
snug.bunny Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 So, snug bunny -- what is the "threshold" to you? How do you establish that it has been passed and both people know? And what is "canoodling" to you? How does all this get known -- telepathy? Or some other method? I'm curious to know. Threshold = physical intimacy Canoodling = physical intimacy I admit in the past, I've gone in rather blindly and not raised the conversation early on prior to physical intimacy. I suppose because I based things moreso on our overall interaction and giving people the benefit of the doubt and wanting to believe, that they were only dating me (which I suppose is a bit naive and perhaps even unrealistic). I suppose it is also because, it's how I've always been (IE: dating one person at a time). I realize not everyone holds the same view, in which case, it may be best to raise the question early on so both are on the same page and know whether or not their views are compatible.
fishtaco Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 Threshold = physical intimacy Canoodling = physical intimacy I admit in the past, I've gone in rather blindly and not raised the conversation early on prior to physical intimacy. I suppose because I based things moreso on our overall interaction and giving people the benefit of the doubt and wanting to believe, that they were only dating me (which I suppose is a bit naive and perhaps even unrealistic). I suppose it is also because, it's how I've always been (IE: dating one person at a time). I realize not everyone holds the same view, in which case, it may be best to raise the question early on so both are on the same page and know whether or not their views are compatible. I've had women that only wanted to have sex with me and not a relationship. So your threshold only works for you. And in addition, it would be very naive of you to assume sex means exclusivity. And really this is for your own protection, regardless if you are a multidater or not. Like ThaWholigan said, there are plenty of hump and dump guys that work on a single woman at a time. If you bring up the conversation, then you are at the very least testing their skills at lying, which you may see through. At best you will run into a non liar that simply share a different perspective than you do... then problem avoided. This is really not a multidating/non multidating problem. It's about how to protect yourself. When you are out dating, you meet all kinds of people. Do you trust someone you've met twice? I don't. As long as you ask all the questions that are important to you, only masterful liars can get through your defenses. But if you meet one of those, you're SOL anyway.
RedRobin Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 My bad. I thought you were saying that you thought you and they were exclusive, and made a small leap and assumed that meant you were (or thought you were) in a relationship with them... They said they were exclusive. I found out shortly afterward (within a week or two) that they weren't. I refuse to give them the title of 'ex'. They were OLD losers whom were (I guess) 'working towards' exclusivity. Or so they said. ... which is also why I was describing the behaviour as cheating. But, no (or yes), if you're not in a relationship with someone then you can't really be cheated on! Saying you're exclusively dating only one person when, in fact, you are dating other people clearly is lying, yes. According to multi-daters, the above is part of their 'process'. They don't define it as lying. It is 'working towards' exclusivity with some 'magical' REAL exclusivity la-la land existing somewhere in someone's imagination that signifies they are in a 'relationship'. :sick: Whatever. Me thinks they like it this way because they don't like honesty and prefer to dance around what is lying or cheating in favor of whatever is convenient at the moment and what 'feels good' to them.
RedRobin Posted June 20, 2012 Posted June 20, 2012 (edited) That's perfectly fine, and I highly recommend everyone to be the same way. However, the problem is everyone have a different "threshold". Your threshold most likely is NOT the same as someone else's. That's why multidaters like to use the term "exclusive". Dating, seeing each other, or even boyfriend/girlfriends are terms open to interpretations. "Exclusive" it means just that, you can't interpret it any other way. So I would give you high-five, if in addition to what you said, you also always engage in an exclusive talk first, doesn't matter who brings it up, before assuming exclusivity. These rules for multidating aren't for predatory reasons. They are for self protection, for managing ones expectations, and to cut down on miscommunications. The line in the sand is exclusivity. You are assumed to be casual until the talk. See... very simple. Some people may find that too business like and cut and dry. But given the whole Venus/Mars thing, communication is difficult as it is, I would say cut and dry is a good thing. Plus ambiguity is the breeding ground for mind games. Not all ambiguous situations happen because someone is pulling a fast one on you, but if someone wants to play games, it is to his/her best interest to create ambiguity. Again, cut and dry wins, unless you actually want to play games. I beg to differ. Some people consider 'exclusive' to mean they reserve intercourse for one person, but they are free to do everything else. Some think it is ok to kiss others, but reserve anything involving genitalia as 'exclusive'. Yet a third group think it is ok to reserve physical intimacy for one person, but still shop around and date others. This last group is the one I love the most. The ones who try to make you their FWB without telling you. Boy they get the peeved when you dump them. Anyway, this is why I don't date multi-daters. They are either dating other people, and who knows what the hell goes on during dates, or they aren't. Much easier to draw distinctions that way, rather than split hairs over what is 'exclusive'. Most of the time, even after they say they are exclusive, they have others hanging in the wings that they have a tough time ditching. Plus if any of their former dates calls again, it is back to square one. I really believe that multi-dating is an addiction for alot of people. They really have a horrible time focusing on one person. It is incredibly painful for them to eliminate their 'options' and they will always find some way to squeeze one in and keep their back up plans in place. If they were ok being alone, they would just date one at a time and take their chances. But they can't. Edited June 20, 2012 by RedRobin
snug.bunny Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 I've had women that only wanted to have sex with me and not a relationship. So your threshold only works for you. And in addition, it would be very naive of you to assume sex means exclusivity. And really this is for your own protection, regardless if you are a multidater or not. Like ThaWholigan said, there are plenty of hump and dump guys that work on a single woman at a time. If you bring up the conversation, then you are at the very least testing their skills at lying, which you may see through. At best you will run into a non liar that simply share a different perspective than you do... then problem avoided. This is really not a multidating/non multidating problem. It's about how to protect yourself. When you are out dating, you meet all kinds of people. Do you trust someone you've met twice? I don't. As long as you ask all the questions that are important to you, only masterful liars can get through your defenses. But if you meet one of those, you're SOL anyway. I hear what you're saying, and I appreciate your viewpoints. But, I dont see how multidating is a form of "self protection", unless you're speaking in terms of "don't put all your eggs into one basket". Instead, put your eggs into several baskets, simultaneously? I guess in terms of odds, that makes the most sense.
oaks Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 According to multi-daters, the above is part of their 'process'. You're forgetting to use the word "some" again, as in "some multi-daters". I don't think that I tell anyone that I'm exclusively dating them if I'm not.
RedRobin Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 (edited) You're forgetting to use the word "some" again, as in "some multi-daters". I don't think that I tell anyone that I'm exclusively dating them if I'm not. You know what, I started out saying you are right.. some... but then thought again... Multi-daters could help their 'cause' alot if they stopped promoting dishonesty as a path to intimacy... and step up to the plate to inform their other partners. Since they can't do that, I don't really care to put in the word 'some' before multi-daters. I've never met an honest one yet and the whole premise is to keep things vague, as that is part of the multi-dater philosophy. Edited June 21, 2012 by RedRobin
phineas Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 I am curious with those individuals on here who are currently multi-dating, more specifically with people you've met online. How many do you usually manage dating at once? How do you deal with being at different dating levels at the same time i.e. date one with someone and date ten with another? At what point do you think it is best to make a decision? A certain time frame? A certain number of dates? I am curious because I am in a serious state of confusion right now. I am "entertaining" four men. One is out of town for another month or so and the second we have some history/didn't meet online. The other two I have met online. I am not real sure how long I can keep this up without a decision. It isn't black & white. As long as everyone knows the score then you don't have to decide anything. But if you are leading on any of those men (letting them believe their the only guy making time with you) then you need to stop because you are becoming a POS. I meet many women who do their best to make it seem like if it wasn't for me they'd be sitting at home watching their Vampire diaries boxed set on TV. When the reality is their juggling a few guys & a FWB and it becomes apparent to me after only a few weeks of knowing them. If they haven't figured out whether they want to be with me or not after a month of dating? They got my number when they are ready to. So for me I consider myself single until a woman wants to go public with us being official. If a woman doesn't want me talking to other women but doesn't want to tell her friends & family that we are an item & officially take herself off the market it means there is someone else she really wants to be official with & is just using me for attention. So i just have to wonder how your able to keep this many men around for this long. Unless you consider "entertaining" to mean sex.
mysteryscape Posted June 21, 2012 Posted June 21, 2012 (Boy, is it hard to figure out how to reply here to the post I want). You say the "threshold" is "physical intimacy." But as others have noted, it's obvious, "physical intimacy" means different things to different people. Intercourse? Heavy making out? Kissing? Hugging?
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