Physical Attractiveness and "External Validation"...

[zengirl]

Re: internal validation

 

Internal validation is absolutely crucial to really receiving external validation in a healthy way. The two are not opposed really -- all human beings need internal and external validation in SOME way, but typically when we are failing to receive external validation and want it to be a crutch for our own sense of internal validation, we fail to get either one in a healthy manner. Even if you receive external validation, if you have no internal validation, you have no means for the feedback to be truly positive --- you either cling to it, needing that validation, or you ignore it completely, not believing the validation. Neither is a healthy means of processing.

 

I do think internal validation is something it's responsible for each and every human to build, and unlike external validation (which is the more shallow kind of validation, though both are egoistic in nature and deal with our "I" selves), internal validation is not 'area specific.' If you have a sense of self, self-love, and self-confidence, you don't have it in intelligence but not looks or whatever. You may be able to acknowledge your strengths and weaknesses, but it simply means you are happy with yourself. All around. External validation is weaker, external (obviously), and more superficial, so it can be a simpler matter, like everyone says you have nice eyes, but internal validation is holistic. You either have it, across the board, or you've been relying on external validation and all you have are the echoes of that.

 

But one of the REASONS to make sure you've cultivated and nurtured yourself and that you love yourself and have that internal validation is to be able to better receive and process external validation in a positive way, so they are not counter to each other at all.

 

When it comes to RELATIONSHIPS, I don't see people as "products," and I wholly disagree that "we" inherently assign a "value" to a person relative to other people. Normal people with hearts, who look at people as unique individuals who can't and shouldn't be compared to anyone else don't do that. I certainly don't assess value of people against each other. That's a dishearteningly disgusting way of looking at and relating to people.

 

People as products. Trading up. GIGS at it's finest.

 

Just remember, comparison is the thief of joy. It explains why you're sad.

 

I agree with this wholeheartedly, Hokie, and I meet many people who DON'T comparison shop. I know a few friends who do, most are emotionally unavailable. I would say that LS, among singles especially, seems to have a large crowd of emotionally unavailable people. I have not found that in my social circles in life, but like usually attracts like on that. When I was emotionally unavailable, I met many more men who were. With good reason - those are the people someone who was EU would unconsciously seek out.

 

I do agree that LS isn't like the real world, but I'd say there are more people with the perspective SG presents in my version of the real world than there are with yours. But everyone's real world will be based around what they attract, what they seek, who they are, where they go, etc, etc. There are just so many people in the world, and everyone really only sees what's in their bubble or social circle and just a 'taste' of everything else. Surely, we've all run into a user or two, someone with GIGS, etc, etc, but those of us who are not like what you describe will naturally and subconsciously avoid that more readily than those who also think like that, giving us very different experiences of the world.

 

I don't think anyone, even SG, has argued that the mentality you describe doesn't exist. I just don't personally see it as a majority or normal mentality, and it's certainly not one I'd call healthy. But I imagine I don't see that mentality very much IRL because I'd subconsciously screen for it, without even noticing, because of my mindset and priorities. I've seen a LOT more ugliness in regards to dating on LS than I've ever seen IRL.

[Eternal Sunshine]

I feel like we are talking apples and oranges. But anyway, few points:

 

Yes, beauty is subjective in the sense that you may do it for one person and another would find you completely unattractive. However, given large enough sample of people (that we generally meet going through our lives), if you are OBJECTIVELY ATTRACTIVE, a large proportion of that sample will think "Yep I would sure hit that". So beauty has an objective measure. (conversely a large proportion would think "Uh no." if you are OBJECTIVELY UNATTRACTIVE). It is much easier for anyone going through life to find a mate if large proportion of people of the opposite sex finds them attractive.

 

Secondly, internal validation is good because it's better for anyone to walk around thinking "Yep I am hot" then to walk around thinking "I am ugly :(". This is where it ends through. Others will still be "yes or no" based on how THEY see you and not based on how you see yourself. If you have other great traits (confidence being one) - they may see you in a different light after prolonged interaction and may become attracted to you. This however, is not the subject of this thread. We are talking about physical attraction ONLY.

[USMCHokie]

I agree with this wholeheartedly, Hokie, and I meet many people who DON'T comparison shop. I know a few friends who do, most are emotionally unavailable. I would say that LS, among singles especially, seems to have a large crowd of emotionally unavailable people. I have not found that in my social circles in life, but like usually attracts like on that. When I was emotionally unavailable, I met many more men who were. With good reason - those are the people someone who was EU would unconsciously seek out.

 

I do agree that LS isn't like the real world, but I'd say there are more people with the perspective SG presents in my version of the real world than there are with yours. But everyone's real world will be based around what they attract, what they seek, who they are, where they go, etc, etc. There are just so many people in the world, and everyone really only sees what's in their bubble or social circle and just a 'taste' of everything else. Surely, we've all run into a user or two, someone with GIGS, etc, etc, but those of us who are not like what you describe will naturally and subconsciously avoid that more readily than those who also think like that, giving us very different experiences of the world.

 

I still disagree, and it amazes me the sense of righteousness and/or ego that some folks possess that prevents them from admitting something they do subconsciously. I'm not saying we necessarily "comparison shop" consciously or with specific purpose. Isn't history the study of the past and comparing past events and outcomes with present events to guide our actions? Are relationships not the same? Why does someone who was physically, mentally, or emotionally abused by a past relationship allow it to have ANY effect on her? You state that no one compares anyone to anyone else, right? So even if you knew that someone was an abuser, they allegedly exist independent of all others, so you can't assume that your experience will be similar as your past abusive relationship, right? No, you don't compare people to each other, so you would never make that assumption.

 

The "free market analogy" is just that. An analogy. It gives a different perspective to explain a natural social phenomenon. And I still believe it's wholly accurate. The only arguments I've received against it, "oh, I don't do that...!!"

 

And you might argue the whole semantics thing, and that's fine. The conclusion I make is that comparison is the basis of learning and is so unbelievably fundamental to social interaction that it might escape some folks who don't want to believe or see it, either out of pride or some sense of pride or political correctness.

[zengirl]

It is much easier for anyone going through life to find a mate if large proportion of people of the opposite sex finds them attractive.

 

No disagreement on that, if all other variables are equal. But variables in other areas are rarely equal, and attraction is rarely thought of like a calculation, as y'all are talking. It's an organic reaction. However, there are plenty of attractive people who have tragic dating lives. Absolutely.

 

Why? Typically at least part of it is an overemphasis on external validation. And there are a myriad of other reasons as well that range from other superficial flaws to character flaws to self-defeating thought patterns, etc, etc. Being objectively attractive is not guaranteed success and being objectively unattractive is not guaranteed failure. Anyway, most people are neither of those and fall into the realm of average where they're sometimes a person's cuppa and sometimes not.

 

Secondly, internal validation is good because it's better for anyone to walk around thinking "Yep I am hot" then to walk around thinking "I am ugly :(". This is where it ends through.

 

This is not really what I'd call internal validation. Intrinsic validation is more like, "I love and respect myself, and I am worthwhile and beautiful, as a human being" and is held no matter what external events occur. InterI donnal validation done, in a transactional nature, to get an external event to occur would hardly be internal validation! The whole point of internal validation is to not rely on the external solely to define you. That is why your level of internal validation determines how you receive external validation, to a degree. You are re-defining your experience and reality each time you invalidate or validate yourself.

 

Others will still be "yes or no" based on how THEY see you and not based on how you see yourself. If you have other great traits (confidence being one) - they may see you in a different light after prolonged interaction and may become attracted to you. This however, is not the subject of this thread. We are talking about physical attraction ONLY.

 

I think the problem is that many people's physical/sexual attraction is determined by things other than looks. To some, sexual and emotional attraction are even linked, or sexual and mental attraction, or all three. To separate them as you are trying to do is a bit inorganic. Not to mention you seem to mean initial physical attraction (not ALL physical attraction, because physical attraction does change as you get to know someone, IME).

 

As to initial physical attraction, personally, I don't feel it, so it is a meaningless construct to me. I literally cannot feel sexual attraction for someone just based on the way they look. I understand others can, but it's not something I've ever experienced. Remember that everyone's attraction matrix will be different. I can recognize someone instantly as aesthetically pleasing, but it doesn't turn me on or make me any more 'attracted' to them without other components to ignite it.

[Leigh 87]

I like to not compare people. No one is better than anyone else. Unless they are a horrible person, of course! Or emotionally abusive, or a terrible person in general.

MOST GOOD people, in my opinion, are just different. A guy who enjoys the out doors and likes girls who speak foreign languages and sky dive,and likes people to constantly challenge themselves with a new task - be it learning french, or taking up a new sport - will find that type of girl more attractive and over all " a better deal", than a girl who is a couch potato who is not interested in learning new things.

The former girl certainly sounds like she has more going for her than the lazy girl who has no interest in learning anything new - yet, SOME guys will prefer the less challenging, more plain girl, to the one who has more interests and passions.

 

I hate to think about how some people do rate people against each other. I honestly like to think that some people just prefer different things, that a person is no better or worse, just not a great match for everyone.

Although, I guess it is natural to be in love with one girl, for the relationship to end, only to find another girl one day who feels like a " better deal".

It's not that they were not totally in love with the first girl. Perhaps some people go on and find another person, and love them " differently" yet no better, no worse...

 

I feel like I love my boyfriend a great deal, and if it does not work out, I cannot even fathom regarding another guy HIGHER and as a BETTER DEAL, than my current partner!

Different, yes, but I simply fit so well with my boyfriend, and could not possible regard another guy as a better deal, given my feelings for him. Not even if the next dude was a model who travelled the world and enjoyed extreme sports regularly ( all the things I am passionate about experiencing in life)

[zengirl]

I still disagree, and it amazes me the sense of righteousness and/or ego that some folks possess that prevents them from admitting something they do subconsciously.

 

How can you be so sure of what others do subconsciously? That assertion sounds like greater righteousness and ego to me.

 

I'm not saying we necessarily "comparison shop" consciously or with specific purpose. Isn't history the study of the past and comparing past events and outcomes with present events to guide our actions? Are relationships not the same? Why does someone who was physically, mentally, or emotionally abused by a past relationship allow it to have ANY effect on her? You state that no one compares anyone to anyone else, right?

 

I'm not suggesting our history and psychology has no bearing on our attraction matrix or who we choose. I'm not even saying we don't look for specific traits. I'm suggesting that many people do not do so in a "Person A" vs. "Person B" way. That is unhealthy, IMO. A healthier approach would be to know what you want from a R and then search for that --- of course what knowing you want will evolve based on your experiences and people you've interacted with, but that's not the same as comparing. Comparing is a very specific way of looking at things, that judges based upon two or more sets of variables and approaches it from a scarcity mentality. I'm suggesting we are better off (and that I chose to) considering that we have infinite variables and using an abundance mentality to figure out what you want and the patience to wait for it to come along and the commitment to go after it when you see it. Of course, we often have to get to know people to figure out if they match what we want, and we are often learning what we want. I see nothing wrong with that, as long as it isn't a matter of relying on external validation.

 

External validation from an R with a partner is essentially: Is this person good enough for me in the eyes of the world? Are they the best I can get? Would other people want them?

 

Internal validation from an R with a partner is essentially: Is this relationship one that can complete me and make me happy? Is it a healthy relationship for me? Am I fulfilled by this relationship?

 

Do you see how those are completely different ideas? GIGS generally comes from people relying on external validation and then realizing they are unhappy, as they will be with such a shallow connection and shallow form of validation.

 

So even if you knew that someone was an abuser, they allegedly exist independent of all others, so you can't assume that your experience will be similar as your past abusive relationship, right? No, you don't compare people to each other, so you would never make that assumption.

 

Why would you need a comparison for that? A definition and an understanding is not a comparison. If someone is abusive, I don't need to compare them to others to understand they are abusive. If I know of the behavior, it comes on its own merits. And I wouldn't date someone else simply because they were not abusive. They would have to have enough on their own merits and not just be "Not X" (insert whatever issue you're running away from as X). Plenty of people do that, sure, but they usually learn not to do that, as it's unhealthy.

 

The "free market analogy" is just that. An analogy. It gives a different perspective to explain a natural social phenomenon. And I still believe it's wholly accurate. The only arguments I've received against it, "oh, I don't do that...!!"

 

I set forth a much more cohesive argument than that. The free market mindset is generally a scarcity mindset. If you are trapped in a scarcity mindset, you can't understand an abundance mindset, I suppose. It has nothing to do with my personal pride and everything to do with the abundance I see in the world.

 

At any rate, I don't think the 'free market' argument even works to define the way the world works in terms of markets, let alone Rs!

[d'Arthez]

The conclusion I make is that comparison is the basis of learning and is so unbelievably fundamental to social interaction that it might escape some folks who don't want to believe or see it, either out of pride or some sense of pride or political correctness.

Learning by comparison is but one method of learning.

 

Learning is certainly not a linear path; if it were such people's subsequent relationships would improve over time, and one can hardly argue that that is the case. If anything, insofar these relationships are improvements on past improvements, they are likely to be improvements precisely because less weight is given to external validation.

 

People often make the assumption that others are like themselves. If you are a manipulative person, you will assume that a person who displays kindness either has ulterior motives, or is simply too stupid to take advantage of his / her opportunities. Thus were a manipulative person sees a weakness, others may see a strength. I don't see why such a mechanism would not be applicable to "attractiveness".

 

Not everyone relates to others in the same way.

[ThaWholigan]

I still disagree, and it amazes me the sense of righteousness and/or ego that some folks possess that prevents them from admitting something they do subconsciously. I'm not saying we necessarily "comparison shop" consciously or with specific purpose. Isn't history the study of the past and comparing past events and outcomes with present events to guide our actions? Are relationships not the same? Why does someone who was physically, mentally, or emotionally abused by a past relationship allow it to have ANY effect on her? You state that no one compares anyone to anyone else, right? So even if you knew that someone was an abuser, they allegedly exist independent of all others, so you can't assume that your experience will be similar as your past abusive relationship, right? No, you don't compare people to each other, so you would never make that assumption.

 

The "free market analogy" is just that. An analogy. It gives a different perspective to explain a natural social phenomenon. And I still believe it's wholly accurate. The only arguments I've received against it, "oh, I don't do that...!!"

 

And you might argue the whole semantics thing, and that's fine. The conclusion I make is that comparison is the basis of learning and is so unbelievably fundamental to social interaction that it might escape some folks who don't want to believe or see it, either out of pride or some sense of pride or political correctness.

I think at this point nobody is actually disagreeing with this, but at the same time I think that maybe we are interpreting the premise behind this thread a little differently.

 

You are saying that we should acknowledge that indeed comparison and external validation is fundamental to social interaction, and we do. I understand exactly what you are saying in this regard. However, are you also saying it is completely separate to our internal lives and how we view ourselves and present ourselves?

 

Also, are you also implying that we should gauge our physical attractiveness based on the responses we receive towards it? If so, then how do we determine if it is healthy for that individual in the long run? Or in the grand scheme of this thread is it a pointless argument to the original point?

 

I don't think that anyone is saying that they don't believe in external validation or that nobody compares anyone or anything. I'm curious, what way do you propose we view external validation and how we deal with it, seeing as the way we do is "romanticized" and "unrealistic"?

[snug.bunny]

Secondly, internal validation is good because it's better for anyone to walk around thinking "Yep I am hot" then to walk around thinking "I am ugly :(". This is where it ends through. Others will still be "yes or no" based on how THEY see you and not based on how you see yourself. If you have other great traits (confidence being one) - they may see you in a different light after prolonged interaction and may become attracted to you. This however, is not the subject of this thread. We are talking about physical attraction ONLY.

 

Self-affirming statements that contain no action, is in itself, fluff. Anyone can tell himself/herself, fluffy self-affirming statements (IE: "I'm beautiful", "I'm sexy"). When we find other people making less than savory comments towards ourselves, or not being the center of attention physically to every Tom Dick and Harry, and it has very little impact on us ---> you've achieved a healthy sense of self (IE: The value you place in yourself, as an individual, surrounded by and interacting with other people including members of the opposite sex...).

 

I guess for me, I can see both sides of the spectrum, because I've lived it.

 

I had an "ugly" phase (both externally and internally) and I've had an "I'm the sh*t" phase (both externally and internally). But in order for me to get OUT of that ugly phase, took a lot of time, work, commitment and interaction with other people (including dating --though limited---, romantic relationships, failures and success). But, it doesn't stop there. It also entails relationships with friends, family, and self. Action.

 

There are SO many of these types of threads going around (physical attractiveness). My initial response is to not give that much thought to it and/or place that much emphasis on it. You can see how people feed off of it and how it triggers certain emotional responses, some good, some not good.

 

But, I find that personal strength comes from firmly planting your sense of self, from within. This is your core and personal belief system, and, everyone should have one. It's not an infinite solution, but the understanding here is that external forces will always have an impact on us, in some form or another. If individuals can take away something good from it, not dwell on what they feel he/she lacks, but instead move beyond it, it's a step in the right direction.

 

As for speaking in terms of purely physical beauty, I personally do believe, it IS subjective. Most attraction is based on personal (subjective) instinct.

 

Yes, there are certain individuals who are appealing physically, to a broad range of individuals, but that can be tied into symmetric features (since people considered most beautiful have symmetric features, fertility, etc.). That still does not negate, that John Doe may find Jane Doe physically attractive, whereas Josh Doe does not.

[d'Arthez]

Learning by comparison is but one method of learning.

 

Learning is certainly not a linear path; if it were such people's subsequent relationships would improve over time, and one can hardly argue that that is the case. If anything, insofar these relationships are improvements on past improvements relationships, they are likely to be improvements precisely because less weight is given to external validation.

 

Hope my comment makes a bit more sense now.

[Eternal Sunshine]

Oh and one more thing:

 

This is on subjectivity of beauty. The way I see it (and I have read some studies that point the same way), people tend to see themselves as "baseline" to how they "judge" others. This is not only about beauty but also intelligence, extroversion and pretty much any trait you can think of.

 

So, people tend to see anyone that they perceive of as "more attractive" than themselves as attractive and vice versa. From there, you can easily see that more attractive people will have higher standards in what they perceive as attractive which ties in with the other thread Hokie posted (link between how attractive you are and what do you find attractive).

[Anela]

Just presenting a different perspective is all, one that will be commonly encountered but is often ignored on LS in favor of more romanticized perspectives with bunny rabbits frolicking in the strawberry pastures...

 

You called?

[Anela]

Re: internal validation

 

Internal validation is absolutely crucial to really receiving external validation in a healthy way. The two are not opposed really -- all human beings need internal and external validation in SOME way, but typically when we are failing to receive external validation and want it to be a crutch for our own sense of internal validation, we fail to get either one in a healthy manner. Even if you receive external validation, if you have no internal validation, you have no means for the feedback to be truly positive --- you either cling to it, needing that validation, or you ignore it completely, not believing the validation. Neither is a healthy means of processing.

 

I'm just going to agree with this, rather than write down everything that I've had swirling around in my own head - you put these things so much better than I do.

 

I was thinking about all of this last night, and as I woke up this morning; I know that I have a certain amount to offer, but it has taken me a long time to even believe friends when they say nice things to/about me. If a man that I found really attractive, was cuddling up to me, I would be wary - I don't see myself as that attractive (physically), and it doesn't seem to matter how many men say that a woman's looks become more attractive to them as they grow to like them/seem to be more compatible, I would still be wondering what was up. I see how messed up that is, but I also know my experiences. I really could have used more external validation - it would have been nice - but I know that I also need enough confidence of my own in order to recognize it and just accept it when I'm receiving it, rather than questioning and possibly driving someone crazy with my doubting them and myself. I've known this for years, but I can't seem to get where I need to be, which is frustrating.

[zengirl]

Learning by comparison is but one method of learning.

 

Absolutely! It's a very rudimentary way of learning we've all applied at times, sure, but it's hardly the main way of learning for every human being. Some people naturally compare, but not everyone. I agree as well that it is natural for people to assume others are like themselves. I do that, too, sometimes, even though I know better.

 

Oh and one more thing:

 

This is on subjectivity of beauty. The way I see it (and I have read some studies that point the same way), people tend to see themselves as "baseline" to how they "judge" others. This is not only about beauty but also intelligence, extroversion and pretty much any trait you can think of.

 

I will say that I often thought of things as, "Would I rather be me or her?" type things when I was younger, but I think I've grown out of that. Contentment and intrinsic validation will do that. Chasing too much external validation or placing a high priority on external validation is absolutely a problem because it leaves you perpetually falling short, by comparison, and unsatisfied. Truly. As I said, that's not to say external validation doesn't play a role in our lives, and it can play a healthy one; humans are social creatures and we can learn from our interactions that validate or invalidate us.

[Anela]

People often make the assumption that others are like themselves. If you are a manipulative person, you will assume that a person who displays kindness either has ulterior motives, or is simply too stupid to take advantage of his / her opportunities.

 

I don't know about this. Some of us are kind, and don't deliberately try to manipulate others, but have been trained to expect it from some.

 

It really is beyond frustrating to know where you have a problem, to get back into an optimistic mindset and then find yourself dealing with the same old <insert preferred expletive here>. I had enough self-worth to remove myself from damaging situations, but not enough to get myself out into the world. A part of me trusted, but another part of me didn't, and expected the worst - and that part tended to win out, as yet another crushing blow was delivered.

[d'Arthez]

I don't know about this. Some of us are kind, and don't deliberately try to manipulate others, but have been trained to expect it from some.

Bad experiences make one wary. You retain your kindness, but become very suspicious of behaviors you associate with manipulation. Those behaviors do not have to be manipulative - it is the mental association that is creating the problem. If family members contribute to that (as your sister does), then it is a real struggle to get where you want to be.

 

Look at what I wrote, and then consider your sister's actions. It seems, sadly that she fits the bill.

 

It really is beyond frustrating to know where you have a problem, to get back into an optimistic mindset and then find yourself dealing with the same old <insert preferred expletive here>. I had enough self-worth to remove myself from damaging situations, but not enough to get myself out into the world.

It is a hard battle, especially if you have no real opportunity to shape your life in a way you'd like. The only thing you can do is indeed to remove yourself from damaging situations, and work on yourself to regain the confidence to get out in the world. That is probably one of the hardest fights a person can find themselves in, as it is a fight to recreate your life in a more positive and meaningful way for yourself.

 

I do hope you can find a way to regain something of the lost optimism.