ATrainofAngels Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 **** Another fantastic post. You should write a self help book. Best poster on the site
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 I don't agree with you on that point. I'm personally 100% happy with how I look and would feel that way even if I didn't receive any compliments External validation goes way beyond mere compliments. You yourself are searching for external validation in the form of a relationship. Hell, even a girl saying yes to you on a date is form of external validation. If you don't require external validation, then why all the boo hoo'ing about wanting a relationship...?
Content Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I think believing in yourself is a must since its the only person whos guaranteed to always be there for you but i agree it doesnt guarantee the opposite gender will feel that way.. Ive always been confident about myself not worrying what others think but i have to say when i posted my pic and a few people sad bad things it got to me slighlty,i guess we all have that need and a little vanity in us deep down lol
ATrainofAngels Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 If you don't require external validation, then why all the boo hoo'ing about wanting a relationship...? Humans are social creatures, we need both male and female companionship It's not mentally healthy for a 23 year old male to never have a halfway decent relationship. It's not mental validation, it's about not driving yourself insane from loneliness
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 I disagree. People tend to project their feelings about themselves, to some extent, outside as well. Perhaps. But it's like a pig in a tuxedo. If a very attractive person is having a bad day and "looks sad," do you consider them no longer physically attractive...? Or if an objectively unattractive person looks like he just won the lottery, do they become gorgeous? I'm a bit curious at the amount of romanticized views of our world and human behavior here... I'd prefer reading the profile first, so I know what is going on in said person's mind / life, and then look at the pictures. If you know a bit about the person it is much easier to judge what to make of the pictures. You can gauge so much more from the pictures if you know (some biased) story behind them. But are you not clicking on profiles by looking at the profile picture first? Or is there a setting where you can hide pictures until you are "ready" to view them? Point is, that moment before you decide to read the text is guided by the picture and only the picture. It may be brief, and it may be fleeting, but you are reading the profile only because the picture piqued an interest from you. You then read the text profile prior to looking at the rest of the pictures and deciding whether you want to send a message. Yup. And that is why OLD is often a disappointment for people. We could actually do a couple of tests with that. Use the same pictures, and write a completely differing profile text with it. And see what messages you do get. You mean use the same text profile and switch up the pictures...?
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 Humans are social creatures, we need both male and female companionship It's not mentally healthy for a 23 year old male to never have a halfway decent relationship. It's not mental validation, it's about not driving yourself insane from loneliness So you're saying it's not mentally healthy to not have external validation...? And I'll preempt your inevitable response with the following question: how is a relationship with another not a form of external validation? Is a relationship not a way outside of ourselves we can assess that we are desirable to another person...?
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 External validation, internal self-worth and how it attracts other people changes when it comes to online dating. Nearly everyone who does OLD looks at pictures first. Pictures can't really tell you if someone thinks well of themselves, only if they are physically attractive. As society moves more and more towards meeting people online, I think "internal self worth" becomes less of an object of attraction until much later in the relationship. OLD encourages superficial evaluation at the onset.
ATrainofAngels Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 So you're saying it's not mentally healthy to not have external validation...? Well ok. Everybody wants to have relationships with people where they feel that they are very loved To me, that's not external validation though. That's normal human behavior that is healthy. External validation is a pretty girl who needs attention from 10 guys a day to feel that she is a worthy human being It's a question of semantics. The way you're describing it is just a natural part of life And I'll preempt your inevitable response with the following question: how is a relationship with another not a form of external validation? Is a relationship not a way outside of ourselves we can assess that we are desirable to another person...? For me a relationship is about enjoying your time with another person. Making them feel good and having them make you feel good I guess that's external validation by your definition, but it's not for me
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 External validation matters. Absolutely. An absolute lack of external validation can leave one feeling isolated. These are not just things like compliments, but also such simple things as greeting and being greeted when you walk down the street. External validation, as I have argued it throughout the thread, is any external stimuli which has an effect on how you view or assess yourself. It does not however tell you how attractive you are. I was always a bit of a misfit in high school. Always went about things in my way, rather than go with the crowd. I was not pursuing girls, I certainly was not the most physically appealing person out there. But nonetheless the quality girls (the ones that were not airheads in my estimation, that is) in my class were all, to varying degrees attracted to me (and not because I was a bit of a misfit). This is external validation...the mere fact that they were attracted to you demonstrates that you are attractive... Internal validation is not some infinite happiness feedback loop. It feeds off who we are as people and how we relate to the world. This is much more consistent than external validation, since you do not change overnight as a person. The core more or less remains the same, and as you age, and grow, it will change in some detail, but not in its essence. I.e., it feeds off external feedback (i.e., external validation). Related to the randomness is also the issue of not knowing what you can do to improve yourself. One person's cute can be another person's ugly. No matter how much people change their looks the compliments and insults they will receive about their looks retain that random character. Even if people would wake up and look like Megan Fox and Brad Pitt, there would still be people who would abuse them for their looks. People who are deeply affected by external validation, tend to work on the way they present themselves to the world, rather than within, and look how they relate to the world. This subsequently guides people's actions to a large extent. Absolutely. As I said in my response to Carhill, people all react differently to external stimuli. Some will use it with reckless abandon, changing themselves on a whim to satisfy the latest compliment or insult, while others will ponder the external feedback and determine how, if at all, it fits into his own life. A person who has a strong internal validation does not really think about how attractive he / she is. Probably because he has received enough external validation to adequately "validate" his attractiveness in his own mind. Loosely related analogy: knowing how to read. I haven't worried about whether I knew how to read since I was in grade school...because teachers provided me with feedback and "validation" that I had the requisite reading skills to move onto higher levels...so I don't really think about whether I know how to read anymore...
threebyfate Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Why are opinions always so extreme on LS? Needing external validation to define self is soul-sucking not only to yourself but everyone around you. Rather than rely on external validation, ground and center yourself with "you" which includes all aspects of yourself whether positive or negative. Delusional thinking is when your inner image of self is solely or overwhelmingly focused on the negative, the positive or swings wildly between the two based on input from externals. 1
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 External validation is a pretty girl who needs attention from 10 guys a day to feel that she is a worthy human being This is a characteristic of the pretty girl, not of external validation... It's a question of semantics. The way you're describing it is just a natural part of life Precisely. And my whole premise is that external validation is a natural part of life and should not be poo poo'ed like generally it is here.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 Another fantastic post. You should write a self help book. Best poster on the site No sh*t... and always the one who takes the longest and requires the most effort to respond to...but always thought-provoking as well... Saving it for last...
d'Arthez Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 External validation, as I have argued it throughout the thread, is any external stimuli which has an effect on how you view or assess yourself. You take external to be so extreme that anything that does not occur by default within our body is a sign of external validation. As such the concept as you use it is meaningless. Daylight influences how we perceive ourselves. How is daylight a form of external validation? But are you not clicking on profiles by looking at the profile picture first? Or is there a setting where you can hide pictures until you are "ready" to view them? Sadly no such setting exists - I wish it did. But I check everyone who matches my criteria to a major extent, read their descriptions and only then go look at the pictures. This is after I have already made up my mind with regards to whether or not I can relate to this or that person in a meaningful way. Of course people are influenced by the pictures, and this leads to people putting up their best pictures of themselves. People may want to date a 9, but forget that they are dating a person who happens to be a physical 9. Which results in things not working out beyond either a few dates, or a short fling. If that is what people want to do, fine. But as a longterm strategy it is unlikely to be very successful. You mean use the same text profile and switch up the pictures...? Same pictures, different profile text. The ones where the pictures naturally "belong to the text" (eg. an outgoing person being all over the place), and one where the pictures do not match up with the text at all (eg. explicitly stating you don't like to travel, and having the pictures with say the Eiffel Tower, Golden Gate Bridge, etc.. in the background). Depending on the place you live, and the number of iconic settings, you could even do that with your local hotspots, so it does not even seem too contrived.
d'Arthez Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 This is external validation...the mere fact that they were attracted to you demonstrates that you are attractive... Actually I would argue that that is not the case. Since I did not pick up on it at the time. I found out years later that it was the case. Is this some kind of delayed external validation then? I was not too bothered at the time that I did not know that; my world did not depend on people liking me or not. I.e., it feeds off external feedback (i.e., external validation). If I read a novel of say Dostoevsky (must read more!), how is that external validation if I develop insights in myself on my own? If I read an article, how does that externally validate me? Probably because he has received enough external validation to adequately "validate" his attractiveness in his own mind. People who have high internal probably have a strong internal focus of control: i.e. they strongly believe that they themselves can shape their lives, and are not dependent on others to get where they want in life. As such, external validation by its nature has a very limited value to them.
ATrainofAngels Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Precisely. And my whole premise is that external validation is a natural part of life and should not be poo poo'ed like generally it is here. The difference is that dating somebody or having a great relationship is natural external validation and there's nothing wrong with that. A girl who needs attention from 10 guys to feel good about herself is not natural and there is something wrong with that Also keep in mind, there's a difference between basing your entire self worth on external validation vs being confident and happy about yourself but also enjoying external validation as a natural part of relationships
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 My little reading analogy made the hamster wheel in my head turn again...and I think this might be a little mini-breakthrough which can explain what the "Lovable Losers" (someone here at LS coined the term ) are going through. Sticking strictly to physical attractiveness, which is often the basis for their social grievances on LS, these Lovable Losers have experienced little to no external validation in their lives to speak to their attractiveness. My premise here is that external validation is extremely important in early stages and becomes much less important in later stages when a solid sense of self has been established and molded through external feedback. Going back to the reading example, let's say you're a kid in elementary school learning how to read. Imagine receiving NO feedback from teachers; will your reading skills magically improve based solely on what you think is proper reading? No, you require that external validation to guide you on your path to reading, until you reach the stage where you're comfortable reading on your own and don't need feedback on your reading ability. Now we'll return to the Lovable Losers. Figuratively, they are just starting to read and need that external feedback to show them they are on the right track socially. They are currently guided by external invalidation, that is, no dating prospects or relationships, "standards" set by media and society, etc.; and until they start receiving positive feedback, they will go bumping around in the dark with no sense of direction. That is why they ask, "what is wrong with me...?" Because they honestly don't know. And of course there will be those individuals who never let go of that need for external validation and actively seek it even when they don't need it.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 Also keep in mind, there's a difference between basing your entire self worth on external validation vs being confident and happy about yourself but also enjoying external validation as a natural part of relationships Post #91. I would strongly argue that our entire self-worth is completely based on external validation.
d'Arthez Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Nearly everyone who does OLD looks at pictures first. Pictures can't really tell you if someone thinks well of themselves, only if they are physically attractive. You'd be surprised about how much you can pick up from pictures. Much more than people seem to think. OLD encourages superficial evaluation at the onset. Agreed. As society moves more and more towards meeting people online, I think "internal self worth" becomes less of an object of attraction until much later in the relationship. And this is where relationships will often fall apart. If you are looking for something long-term, why would you not want to invest in knowing with a reasonable amount of certainty where you stand before you take the plunge and enter the relationship?
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 You take external to be so extreme that anything that does not occur by default within our body is a sign of external validation. As such the concept as you use it is meaningless. Yes, I used the plain English definition of the term rather than some niche form (e.g., mere compliments). Daylight influences how we perceive ourselves. How is daylight a form of external validation? How does daylight influence how you perceive your attractiveness...? :confused:Do you feel more or less attractive at night...?
d'Arthez Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) How does daylight influence how you perceive your attractiveness...? :confused:Do you feel more or less attractive at night...? For instance the colour of my skin is different in daylight than under artificial lights. Put people under some brown lights / green lights / anything that makes them look unnatural, and they will rate their attractiveness differently. And that is not even considering the effect daylight has on our moods. The better our mood is, the more attractive we think we are as well. Edited June 17, 2012 by d'Arthez
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 For instance the colour of my skin is different in daylight than under artificial lights. Put people under some brown lights / green lights / anything that makes them look unnatural, and they will rate their attractiveness differently. And that is not even considering the effect daylight has on our moods. Fair enough, then daylight's in too!
d'Arthez Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Fair enough, then daylight's in too! But the point remains, if you define external validation as broad as you do, this discussion is rendered meaningless. Most people would not consider daylight as a source of external validation. Nor would they consider reading a book, or thinking about some issue in their everyday life as a source of external validation. Under your all-compassing definition, they would fall under external validation.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 But the point remains, if you define external validation as broad as you do, this discussion is rendered meaningless. Most people would not consider daylight as a source of external validation. Nor would they consider reading a book, or thinking about some issue in their everyday life as a source of external validation. Under your all-compassing definition, they would fall under external validation. All joking aside, my definition isn't entirely all-encompassing. From a social standpoint, which were are discussing now, external validation is any simply external feedback from other people which affects how we view or think of ourselves. This can come from direct feedback (e.g., words, relationships) or indirect feedback (e.g., media).
jobaba Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Nearly everyone who does OLD looks at pictures first. Pictures can't really tell you if someone thinks well of themselves, only if they are physically attractive. As society moves more and more towards meeting people online, I think "internal self worth" becomes less of an object of attraction until much later in the relationship. OLD encourages superficial evaluation at the onset. It's not too different in real life in my opinion. Most people when they meet somebody, they size them up and gauge if they are physically attractive enough to mate with or even similar looking enough to even be friends with. And getting to know somebody's attributes over time will not sway attraction for most people. At least online, you get rejected mostly without even knowing it by people just passing you up without contact.
d'Arthez Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 From a social standpoint, which were are discussing now, external validation is any simply external feedback from other people which affects how we view or think of ourselves. This can come from direct feedback (e.g., words, relationships) or indirect feedback (e.g., media). What would not count as external validation, since to you internal validation is already a variant of external validation?
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