jobaba Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Actually, this is very relevant to the thread. By reading this, I could conclude that I should smile more. It doesn't necessarily have to have anything to do with my ego or self-esteem. I'm simply reacting to an external stimulus. Speaking of external validation, I think you're a good looking Asian dude. Definitely above average. Maybe a 7 as far as Asian guys go. And I know lots of Asian guys ... tons. If you hit a certain crowd and genre, I think you could be doing pretty damn well. But you don't like Asian girls, right? I think as an Asian guy, when you approach non-Asian women, you automatically lose 2 points off your looks, so you'd be a 5 if you started hitting on white women. Haha. Or just ignore all my half-cocked theories.
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Speaking of external validation, I think you're a good looking Asian dude. Definitely above average. Maybe a 7 as far as Asian guys go. And I know lots of Asian guys ... tons. If you hit a certain crowd and genre, I think you could be doing pretty damn well. But you don't like Asian girls, right? I think as an Asian guy, when you approach non-Asian women, you automatically lose 2 points off your looks, so you'd be a 5 if you started hitting on white women. Haha. Or just ignore all my half-cocked theories. Nerdy girls seem to be pretty into Asians. Hokie why don't ya like the Asian girls?
Eternal Sunshine Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I'm white and Hokie doesn't lose any points for being Asian 2
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 Speaking of external validation, I think you're a good looking Asian dude. Definitely above average. Maybe a 7 as far as Asian guys go. And I know lots of Asian guys ... tons. If you hit a certain crowd and genre, I think you could be doing pretty damn well. But you don't like Asian girls, right? I think as an Asian guy, when you approach non-Asian women, you automatically lose 2 points off your looks, so you'd be a 5 if you started hitting on white women. Haha. Or just ignore all my half-cocked theories. :laugh: Thanks for the external validation. I don't know if the 2 points off is accurate...more like 5...or 6...? Hokie why don't ya like the Asian girls? It's not that I don't like them, it's just that I don't encounter them very often, if even at all. And the ones that I did meet were obsessed with white dudes, so I just let them have their way.
Star Gazer Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 My premise is that physical attractiveness is entirely an externally derived characteristic. It doesn't mean sh*t whether you think you're attractive when it comes to dating...it only matters whether those outside you think it. And that is the reason why so many people instinctively look outward for feedback on how attractive they are...because it's the ONLY place you can get it...whether it's words, success in dating, an attractive significant other, etc. I don't think people look for feedback from others to figure out whether or not they're attractive. That's certainly not the "ONLY" place you get it. YOU determine your worth, not someone else. Look, you're not going to be everyone's cup of tea - not by a long shot. If you rely on what others think about you to tell you what you should think about yourself (with regards to ANYTHING, but particularly attractiveness), well, you're gonna be pretty messed up, because to some you'll be the cat's meow, and to others you'll be gross. 1
Star Gazer Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Hokie, you have a really nice smile Is this...a joke?
Star Gazer Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I got it, and I agree. External validation is not a healthy way of creating your own self image. But you're saying that external validation is the "ONLY" way one gauges their own attractiveness.
Star Gazer Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Your belief in yourself is ultimately inconsequential in the grand scheme of life in a society... I couldn't disagree more. Your belief in yourself, at the end of the day, is really ALL that matters.
jobaba Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Nerdy girls seem to be pretty into Asians. Hokie why don't ya like the Asian girls? I've experienced that nerdy and hipster women are more apt to date Asian guys, but by then, a lot of non-external factors are coming in to play. Speaking of that, I tried to hit the hipster scene in Brooklyn years ago to try out my luck with the nerd/hipster girls there. Fail... Although I will say, you are way more likely to get conversation out of women at hipster bars than at Irish bars and clubs. :laugh: Thanks for the external validation. I don't know if the 2 points off is accurate...more like 5...or 6...? It's not that I don't like them, it's just that I don't encounter them very often, if even at all. And the ones that I did meet were obsessed with white dudes, so I just let them have their way. Is it possible to go into the negative!?! If so, I'm sure I've been there.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 I've experienced that nerdy and hipster women are more apt to date Asian guys, but by then, a lot of non-external factors are coming in to play. Speaking of that, I tried to hit the hipster scene in Brooklyn years ago to try out my luck with the nerd/hipster girls there. Fail... My extremely limited experience with hipsters has been negative...I found them to be incredibly pretentious and a bit fake...
carhill Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Thoughts...? I think actively seeking external validation defines one psychological style and accepting external validation defines another style and denying it as relevant is another; etc., etc. I recall, when married, purposely altering my style of focusing on the internal to be more complimentary of the external (e.g. physical attractiveness) as a compromise to the style differences my exW and I exhibited. Still, it was a purposeful departure, which perhaps another person would not have to make or think about making. I have considered that this style developed as a result of societal and peer experiences but, reflecting back to early years, as a child, I recall vividly how I didn't segregate nor validate people based upon physical presence, which probably explained in part the wide range of friends I had as a young person. Regarding your premise about physical attractiveness (subjective beauty) being entirely external, I think that has some traction, complicated by both the object's and viewer's style of perception, life history and, more immediately, their current emotional state. To me, it's very gray. That's nothing new
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 I think actively seeking external validation defines one psychological style and accepting external validation defines another style and denying it as relevant is another; etc., etc. You are definitely right here about there being a distinction between the "styles," as you call it. And based on the discussion I've had with folks in this thread, I'm adjusting my view to apply primarily to those who deny it as relevant. It doesn't seek to condone or encourage actively seeking external validation as a means of happiness. However, I believe external validation is a gauge for personal assessment. I only speak to say that physical beauty as applicable in the dating world is truly in the eye of the beholder, not your eye.
carhill Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 However, I believe external validation is a gauge for personal assessment. I see some commonalities based on life experience, particularly during the transition period from FOO to peer acceptance. Emotional memories formed during that time appear to be long lived and, in my case, reinforced what apparently has been a lifelong style of accepting external validation as an entity separate from internal barometer of value and worth. I don't know if compartmentalization is too strong of a word, but there's definitely a separation of the 'boxes' in my psyche regarding these aspects. I only speak to say that physical beauty is truly in the eye of the beholder, not your eye. While I might like certain physical things I see in the mirror, I think your assertion does have traction. Consistent with my style, I accept the totality, generally similar to how I view other people. YMMV.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 I don't know if compartmentalization is too strong of a word, but there's definitely a separation of the 'boxes' in my psyche regarding these aspects. It will be compartmentalized to varying degrees depending on the individual, ranging from those who take each tidbit of external feedback as absolute truth to those who disregard it completely. However, for a vast majority of people, that degree of separation will lie somewhere in between, where folks take each piece of feedback, assess, analyze, and do whatever they have to do with it in order to fit it into their own personal assessment of themselves. It's very similar to what I would refer to in my field as "intelligence-driven operations," where what we see on the battlefield will drive future operational planning and decisionmaking. Likewise, when we receive external validation (or non-validation), we take that and use it to shape our own lives. Some people use it blindly, while others use it with more discretion and thought. And even others ignore it completely and choose to operate "within themselves." It's these individuals who are often walking in circles...
carhill Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Probably already discussed but the nuance of the source of the external validation can also have play IMO. As an example, a valued or desired source can have more 'value' than another, or a random validating experience, again dependent upon the style of the recipient. As an example from a period when such styles are being developed, back in high school, the word 'clique' or 'in-crowd' could sometimes describe this dynamic. If one sought to be in the clique or in-crowd, validation from members of those groups had more value that that coming from some random person.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 Probably already discussed but the nuance of the source of the external validation can also have play IMO. As an example, a valued or desired source can have more 'value' than another, or a random validating experience, again dependent upon the style of the recipient. Absolutely, and this factor certainly plays an important role in the assessment of external validation.
denise_xo Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 And please keep in mind that I speak only of physical attractiveness and not overall attractiveness. I think the reality is that they could never be completely separated, even in the case of beauty contests and so on. So you can have a philosophical discussion about their differences, but in real life they mesh.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 I think the reality is that they could never be completely separated, even in the case of beauty contests and so on. So you can have a philosophical discussion about their differences, but in real life they mesh. Real example: Pictures on online dating profiles. Initial assessments of "attraction" are often made solely on physical looks. For many, they never make it past this first "filter."
d'Arthez Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 My premise is that physical attractiveness is entirely an externally derived characteristic. It doesn't mean sh*t whether you think you're attractive when it comes to dating...it only matters whether those outside you think it. I disagree. People tend to project their feelings about themselves, to some extent, outside as well. There is a real difference between a real smile and a "pretend" smile. This mechanism influences how attractive people appear to be. Physical attractiveness and overall attractiveness are not wholly separated either. When's the last time you looked at a picture (e.g., online dating) and before deciding on attractiveness, you pondered whether that person thought they are attractive...? I'd prefer reading the profile first, so I know what is going on in said person's mind / life, and then look at the pictures. If you know a bit about the person it is much easier to judge what to make of the pictures. You can gauge so much more from the pictures if you know (some biased) story behind them. I couldn't disagree more. Your belief in yourself, at the end of the day, is really ALL that matters. I disagree here as well. Your self-belief can be rock solid, but if you cannot act in accordance with your desires then you still have some serious issues to overcome. Things like geographical situation, your own professional skill set, the state of the economy, etc., can all undermine you in the dating world, to a massive extent. If I had to date in the town I grew up in, I'd rather stay single and not even bother. The people I am attracted to are simply not there, not by a long shot - unless people want to advocate that I should start dating 17-year olds that want to get the hell out of there. If you live in a place like LA, or NYC, such a thing is hardly ever going to be a problem. Real example: Pictures on online dating profiles. Initial assessments of "attraction" are often made solely on physical looks. For many, they never make it past this first "filter." Yup. And that is why OLD is often a disappointment for people. We could actually do a couple of tests with that. Use the same pictures, and write a completely differing profile text with it. And see what messages you do get. 1
Ninjainpajamas Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) External validation at best is a mixed bag... One person says you look great today... Then another says you look like crap or sleep and warndown.. Which external validation do you validate? did it just offset? And how else would you apply these to your attractiveness or desirability? Do you feel confident one day and not the next If on one day you received 3 compliments yet on the next day received none? Or do you statiscally conjure up a model of your attractivenss only to be turned down by someone you were actually interested in? What happens then? One rejection by someone you are very interested is equivalent to 30 random people compliments? The issue with external validation, even in terms of a "laxed" acceptance this role plays in your self confidence or appeal as evidence is that there is no sustainability or consistency in the way you will feel about yourself...You'll constantly look for external validation and when you don't you'll just feel a little bit worse about yourself...and this is fair to you as a human being? Internal validation is far more consistent and reliable, you base a perception of yourself as a whole by improving the qualities you desire to improve and being the best person/looking you can possibly be. This foundation will actually be reliable as long as you stay within the realm of reality rather than fantasy (deluding yourself into thinking you are model or not). Look it doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out we're not all Victoria Secret models or men who will be modeling in GQ..without the assistance of external validation... Let's face it, most people are pretty average looking to pretty, maybe even very attractive/pretty...however people really want to slam themselves down by listening to the whispers of others to prove this fact to themselves, that they're not good enough or attractive enough, or have the right personality, yadda yadda yadda.."Oh my...my friends are into blondes, that must mean being a brunette means im not attractive"..."God she's so fat, how does she live with herself (everyone feeling insecure about their weight but not saying it)"..."I'd look a lot better If my nose or eyes didn't look like this..then maybe I'd be very attractive rather than just attractive"...external validation is like putting waters on coals...It might cool it off for a short time but as soon that's over you need another cup or bucket of water to cool the coals again...why? Because you're so insecure about what yourself, and what you have to offer as a person you based your self-worth on your attractiveness alone and feel that If you can at least be pretty/good looking and essentially attractive than at least I don't have to feel so bad about myself and who I am! Because maybe someone will look past my other flaws, maybe someone out there would accept be If they just thought I was the greatest looking thing...so all my problems now are based off how I look, therefore I just have to change the way I look on the outside so I can change the way I really feel on the inside...even though It's like putting a band-aid on a gushing wound...i'm still going to bleed out because you'll never look "good enough" in your own eyes. Hey...if that's how you external validation people want to roll, that's all you. But I'm not letting some random ass person decide my selfworth that could be a jerk, *******/bitch, snobby/entitled, fked up in the head and insecure about themselves that they need to shoot down others..."I rejected this good looking of a person, so I MUST be worth something" please, If you're selfesteem is so feeble It can be broken at a drop of a hat...external validation will give a sheer vail but i will not protect you nor server you when the wind starts blowing...anyone can still tear you down, especially someone you have feelings for. You give yourself the power to say what you are valued, If you believe in yourself It will radiate outward and attract other people beacuse you know what people will think "Man...that person may not be the best looking person I've ever seen...but there's something different about them and their confidence is attractive...they look comfortable in their own skin...and that changes the way I feel about them even If initially I would have dismissed them based on their looks...this is a person who feels they are worth something and happy with themselves regardless of their flaws..and I believe it"... Internal validation may not turn you ugly to pretty, but it will bring out the best in you..and what's what really matters. External validation will only bring you disappointment and self pity and loathing eventually, because It will never be everything you want it to be, and you know even If you were a "gorgeous" person...how would you know that this person was with you for your looks or for the person you are? "Welp they got in a car accident...face disfigured..or lost a leg....done with that now...tiem to move on to a healthier more attractive person to my standards!". Am I saying that compliments shouldn't make you feel good? of course, we all love compliments. But knowing how to accept a compliment as a compliment and not affecting your whole being and the way you feel about yourself is the way to go...a compliment is a compliment, not a validation of who you are or what you are worth. And a negative compliment is usually made maliciously, so how much is that really worth to you? Is it worth feeling bad about yourself so that person who said it can feel better about themselves? Just be realistic with yourselves, we're not all here to be amazing perfections of nature In fact what is the percantage of people who are that?...realize your strengths and weaknesses and tell yourself that is ok to not be perfect according to some magazine, book, or unrealistic, fantasy or drunken man talk or random chicken heads talking smack about this or that about men only to end up with the exact douchebag they were talking ***** about last week high and might on their entitlement horse...enhance your strengths and try to improve your weaknesses when it's reasonable. You don't have to judge yourself every waking moment, with every person you meet or looks your way that is attractive, just fkin be believe in yourself...It's the only thing you got, regardless. Mirculously you're going to meet someone who is into you for who you are, so why should it matter what the rest think? Hopefully you have the self-confidence (internal validation) to realize that's enough instead of refusing to believe or accept it. Edited June 17, 2012 by Ninjainpajamas 3
d'Arthez Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 External validation matters. Absolutely. An absolute lack of external validation can leave one feeling isolated. These are not just things like compliments, but also such simple things as greeting and being greeted when you walk down the street. It does not however tell you how attractive you are. I was always a bit of a misfit in high school. Always went about things in my way, rather than go with the crowd. I was not pursuing girls, I certainly was not the most physically appealing person out there. But nonetheless the quality girls (the ones that were not airheads in my estimation, that is) in my class were all, to varying degrees attracted to me (and not because I was a bit of a misfit). If I have to go by the amount of relationships I have had with women, or the amount of women I have bedded, I would probably feel quite miserable about my numbers. And maybe even feel like a failure. But that is not what really matters to me. Consequently, external invalidation as propagated by much of modern culture does not really get to me. Modern culture often suggests that you are not complete if you have not found your "better half", are not all kissy and lovey-dovey, and all that nonsense, and the impossible ideals associated with external "beauty". Internal validation is not some infinite happiness feedback loop. It feeds off who we are as people and how we relate to the world. This is much more consistent than external validation, since you do not change overnight as a person. The core more or less remains the same, and as you age, and grow, it will change in some detail, but not in its essence. External validation is far more random, and you have little clue of why you get a compliment or insult hurled at you. You have no idea if you are "cute", because someone who addresses a few words to you, or if said person had some ulterior motives / impossible standards or what. We tend to fill in the blanks: "It is a non-offensive thing to say for someone." "He / she likes to make people feel good." "He / she wants to feel better and play down my attractiveness." "I am actually cute." I think people throughout this thread have pointed to the marked difference in their perception of what external validation actually points to. Related to the randomness is also the issue of not knowing what you can do to improve yourself. One person's cute can be another person's ugly. No matter how much people change their looks the compliments and insults they will receive about their looks retain that random character. Even if people would wake up and look like Megan Fox and Brad Pitt, there would still be people who would abuse them for their looks. People who are deeply affected by external validation, tend to work on the way they present themselves to the world, rather than within, and look how they relate to the world. This subsequently guides people's actions to a large extent. A person who has a strong internal validation does not really think about how attractive he / she is. He / she does not even really compete for mates. If you have confidence in yourself (as you would with strong internal validation) you simply put yourself out there, do things you enjoy and take things from there. That could be taking dancing classes, because you want to learn to waltz, or even meet people. They would not simply sign up for the classes with the goal of meeting Mr. / Mrs. Right. If it happens, great! If not, you still have a good time. 3
denise_xo Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Real example: Pictures on online dating profiles. Initial assessments of "attraction" are often made solely on physical looks. For many, they never make it past this first "filter." I think what you project also comes across in photos - in your eyes, your clothes, the look on your face, and so on.
Ross MwcFan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 (edited) I've got no idea whether I'm very ugly, average or very attractive IRL. Would it be a good idea for me to make myself believe I'm very attractive? Or should I just stay undecided, and be open to the possibity that I could easily be ugly, average, or attractive? For some reason I have a bad feeling about making myself believe I'm attractive or very attractive, I feel scared about doing this. I'm not sure why. Edited June 17, 2012 by Ross MwcFan
ATrainofAngels Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 My premise is that physical attractiveness is entirely an externally derived characteristic. It doesn't mean sh*t whether you think you're attractive when it comes to dating...it only matters whether those outside you think it. And that is the reason why so many people instinctively look outward for feedback on how attractive they are...because it's the ONLY place you can get it...whether it's words, success in dating, an attractive significant other, etc. I don't agree with you on that point. I'm personally 100% happy with how I look and would feel that way even if I didn't receive any compliments It's only insecure women (mostly) and some insecure men who feel that way. The only time I would want a girl to acknowledge whether or not she finds me attractive is if we're dating....but that's not insecurity or external validation, that's just normal human behavior. Everybody wants to feel like their significant other finds them attractive
SteveC80 Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I agree ts fluff,ive never seen a women i had no attraction to and thought wow she really thinks shes pretty i know think that Obviously its better to believe in yourself then not but ti doesnt change the way others well see you
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