USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I'm going play devil's advocate here and to try to get into some deeper philosophical sh*t here on the topic of physical attractiveness and what we at LS love to hate, external validation... My premise is that physical attractiveness is entirely an externally derived characteristic. It doesn't mean sh*t whether you think you're attractive when it comes to dating...it only matters whether those outside you think it. And that is the reason why so many people instinctively look outward for feedback on how attractive they are...because it's the ONLY place you can get it...whether it's words, success in dating, an attractive significant other, etc. When's the last time you looked at a picture (e.g., online dating) and before deciding on attractiveness, you pondered whether that person thought they are attractive...? Point is, it doesn't matter...whether you feel you are attractive is inconsequential to what others think...yet it's peddled here so often that people must believe they are attractive... And please keep in mind that I speak only of physical attractiveness and not overall attractiveness. And the only true judge of that is external validation... Thoughts...? 1
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Agreed. Glad to finally hear someone voice this opinion.
ThaWholigan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I posted this in the other thread: I wish I could answer that with a coherent response . I think I'm a reasonably attractive guy. I think if I reached my physical potential I could be a very attractive guy physically. I also think of myself pretty highly in other facets of my character, and I'm well aware of my many shortcomings also. Ironically, I think that the person I am now is probably not quite attractive enough on the whole to attract the kind of woman I want (not necessarily physically, but in terms of other things too). However, I also think that I'm definitely not far away from being that person and I have enough in my locker to get there soon. Basically, I believe myself to be attractive even though I haven't attracted the woman I want. Is it weird? Probably. But I'm a weird guy so it makes sense to me . To add to that, I think of it as my duty as the inhabitant of this body I have to think of myself as physically attractive. That way, I don't think of it in terms of superiority over the physical attractiveness of others, but simply that in my own right, I am a physically attractive man. I could far improve that as well physically if I really really wanted to (and to an extent, I do). But as things stand, I find that there isn't much wrong with me. I think it will have an effect that if I have a healthy view of my own attractiveness, then others will also treat me accordingly. So, even if it sounds ridiculous to everyone else, I "internally validate" my own physical attractiveness. 2
Sid6.7 Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I have internal validation. No exterior validation needed. 1
mesmerized Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I don't think it's entirely dependent on what others think...You have to be comfortable in your skin too. A super model is a super model not only because she is hot, but because she walks and acts like she knows it! Confidence and how you carry yourself certainly plays a role in your "physical" attractiveness but not as much as how much you match the attractiveness criteria for the place you live in.
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I could have internal validation that I'm a millionaire; doesn't change the amount of money in my savings account.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 To add to that, I think of it as my duty as the inhabitant of this body I have to think of myself as physically attractive. That way, I don't think of it in terms of superiority over the physical attractiveness of others, but simply that in my own right, I am a physically attractive man. I could far improve that as well physically if I really really wanted to (and to an extent, I do). But as things stand, I find that there isn't much wrong with me. I think it will have an effect that if I have a healthy view of my own attractiveness, then others will also treat me accordingly. So, even if it sounds ridiculous to everyone else, I "internally validate" my own physical attractiveness. Of course this is a healthy way of thinking, but from a holistic perspective and approach, all the internal validation in the world isn't going to make someone think of your physical looks any differently. Imagine someone posts a picture on an online dating site with the caption, "I think I'm pretty." Will that make you think she's prettier...?
Sid6.7 Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I could have internal validation that I'm a millionaire; doesn't change the amount of money in my savings account. That is a tangible asset that can be exchanged for goods or services. I believe he was speaking in terms of self image. Here is the issue with a lot of people, male and female. They give too much of a damn what other people think of them and are slaves too it. They are not truly free externally or internally. 2
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 That is a tangible asset that can be exchanged for goods or services. I believe he was speaking in terms of self image. Here is the issue with a lot of people, male and female. They give too much of a damn what other people think of them and are slaves too it. They are not truly free externally or internally. I was actually not speaking of self image...but image...in the world of dating, image actually is a tangible asset...in my opinion...
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 That is a tangible asset that can be exchanged for goods or services. I believe he was speaking in terms of self image. Here is the issue with a lot of people, male and female. They give too much of a damn what other people think of them and are slaves too it. They are not truly free externally or internally. None of us is an ivory tower. We live in a world populated with other people. It doesn't matter what I think of my looks, because I am not trying to date myself. Someone dating me depends on their attraction to me. Ergo, my physical attractiveness (and thus my relationship status) is dependent on other people. It sucks to be born ugly, and it sucks to be thus condemned to a life alone (unless you get lucky), but there it is. Deluding yourself to believe differently is just a waste of time.
Badsingularity Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I used to be guilty of looking for validation from external sources, but not anymore. I still actively pay attention to my thoughts and control weather or not what anyone says about me allows me to change my beliefs about myself. It may sound strange, but when someone compliments me or says something positive about my appearance I do not let it feed my ego in my mind and the same goes with someone saying something bad about myself or my appearance. I no longer allow other peoples opinion of me effect what I believe to be true about myself. Also, I believe it is very important for people to stop seeking external validation and to instead find it within. That way no one can shake them. It is especially important for men to do this. A man's belief in himself can actually effect the way a woman perceives his appearance. 3
Badsingularity Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I could have internal validation that I'm a millionaire; doesn't change the amount of money in my savings account. Money is not physically in your brain, but your beliefs about yourself are. Therefore you can control them. 1
ThaWholigan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Of course this is a healthy way of thinking, but from a holistic perspective and approach, all the internal validation in the world isn't going to make someone think of your physical looks any differently. Imagine someone posts a picture on an online dating site with the caption, "I think I'm pretty." Will that make you think she's prettier...? Oh, well if your alluding to whether my belief in my attractiveness will affect how others view it, then it's probably unlikely that will change how attractive somebody finds me. However, I don't really worry about things that are beyond my control, and whether or not I receive external validation for who I am, what I look like and the things I do is inconsequential to the way I view myself. True, it never used to be like this for me. But it is now, and it's going to stay that way. External validation only effects the way people view their own attractiveness if they allow it too - some will and some won't. 3
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Money is not physically in your brain, but your beliefs about yourself are. Therefore you can control them. But what good does controlling them do? How I view myself doesn't change how others view me. It just doesn't. If I think I'm smart, plenty of people still think I'm dumb. If I think I'm funny, lots of people still think I'm boring. Telling myself I'm attractive, without any evidence whatsoever except my "belief," is just delusional.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 Oh, well if your alluding to whether my belief in my attractiveness will affect how others view it, then it's probably unlikely that will change how attractive somebody finds me. However, I don't really worry about things that are beyond my control, and whether or not I receive external validation for who I am, what I look like and the things I do is inconsequential to the way I view myself. True, it never used to be like this for me. But it is now, and it's going to stay that way. External validation only effects the way people view their own attractiveness if they allow it too - some will and some won't. I got it, and I agree. External validation is not a healthy way of creating your own self image. But my point is that your self image is insignificant in affecting one's purely physical attraction to you. Overall attraction, I'm sure it plays a huge role, but I was careful to narrow the scope of my premise to purely physical attraction.
mesmerized Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 It is especially important for men to do this. A man's belief in himself can actually effect the way a woman perceives his appearance. Another reason men should be happy they are men. They actually have some kind of control in their love lives lol 1
Badsingularity Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 But what good does controlling them do? How I view myself doesn't change how others view me. It just doesn't. If I think I'm smart, plenty of people still think I'm dumb. If I think I'm funny, lots of people still think I'm boring. Telling myself I'm attractive, without any evidence whatsoever except my "belief," is just delusional. When a woman believes positive things about herself she usually smiles a lot, has better posture, has a more open and approachable attitude and aura about her. Men like women like this and are more likely to approach a woman like this. When a woman dislikes herself and thinks only negatively about herself it shows in very closed off and unfriendly body language. 2
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 When a woman believes positive things about herself she usually smiles a lot, has better posture, has a more open and approachable attitude and aura about her. Men like women like this and are more likely to approach a woman like this. When a woman dislikes herself and thinks only negatively about herself it shows in very closed off and unfriendly body language. Yeah, cause that's what men care about.... body language. I've seen guys approach women who had clear closed off body language, because the girl was hot. Physical attractiveness is what matters first in a girl, and it has very little to do with what she thinks of herself. All there is to it, really. I wonder, why does this concept bother people so much? Is it the lack of control... that no matter what you think or say, you can't change other people's opinions of your physical looks? Is it the powerlessness that's so disconcerting?
Author USMCHokie Posted June 17, 2012 Author Posted June 17, 2012 And for those who don't believe the importance and pervasiveness of external validation in our lives, I'll provide a quick analogy. The idea of job awards and promotions is to serve as an incentive to do good work. Yet they are the epitome of external validation at their very core. If you truly don't believe in or need external validation, would you be perfectly content never getting awarded or promoted for your work? External validation often serves as an incentive in our lives, and a lack thereof often drives us to improve and change our lives...using external validation as a gauge to assess that improvement. We don't live in bubbles, people...
ThaWholigan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I got it, and I agree. External validation is not a healthy way of creating your own self image. But my point is that your self image is insignificant in affecting one's purely physical attraction to you. Overall attraction, I'm sure it plays a huge role, but I was careful to narrow the scope of my premise to purely physical attraction. I understand where you are coming from, and to an extent we are in agreement, but I'm not 100% convinced that self image doesn't affect someone's physical attraction towards you. Granted, I think that beauty is in the eye of the beholder and everyone finds different things attractive. However, I think there is something that has to be said for the way you view yourself impacting a person's attraction towards you indirectly. When I studied body language, I came across a book called The Code of the Natural by Rob Brinded. This guy was one of the fitness coaches at Chelsea during the Mourinho years. Anyway, he wrote this book about how to fix your body movement so that it's more functional and more aesthetically attractive. He does this with both men and women, but the book is geared to men. I have seen this at play. I started to watch how women walked, and sometimes men. I became (and still am) fascinated with movement and the way people walk. I can tell a lot about someone from the way they move. The most attractive women to me walk in a certain way, they have a personal swagger about them, even if they aren't conventionally attractive. When I started to think about myself being attractive, I noticed that I walked different. My body language was better, I felt better, and I moved better, more freely. And also, at this time I started to get more attention from girls, even though I often didn't notice it. It takes some time getting used to to be honest. So basically, you could be right, but I wouldn't say its inarguable. But what good does controlling them do? How I view myself doesn't change how others view me. It just doesn't. If I think I'm smart, plenty of people still think I'm dumb. If I think I'm funny, lots of people still think I'm boring. Telling myself I'm attractive, without any evidence whatsoever except my "belief," is just delusional. Why is it delusional? I struggle to understand why you believe this... Would I rather be unhappy and "realistic" or happy and "delusional"? If I understand that my reality is as subjective as what one considers delusional, I know what I will choose. Maybe I am delusional .......after all, I have always been single and never dated
Badsingularity Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Yeah, cause that's what men care about.... body language. Mature, experienced men, with options, will always go for the open positive body language over the negative closed off vibe of women who hate themselves. 1
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 Why is it delusional? I struggle to understand why you believe this... Would I rather be unhappy and "realistic" or happy and "delusional"? If I understand that my reality is as subjective as what one considers delusional, I know what I will choose. Maybe I am delusional .......after all, I have always been single and never dated If you are searching for the reason you are single, then you must be realistic about yourself. Being delusional about your level of attractiveness will only lead to misery, because you will be unable to address/correct the thing that is getting in your way (your looks.) I've seen posters on this board say that your league is who you can attract. If you can't attract anyone... if no one is attracted to you... then you should be realistic about that. Your assertion that you'd rather be happy/delusional suggests that being delusional would make you happy. But if you want to be in a relationship, and aren't, then your delusion is actually preventing you from being happy.
Badsingularity Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 If you truly don't believe in or need external validation, would you be perfectly content never getting awarded or promoted for your work? I would think that my employers didn't know a good thing when they see it. It would not effect my belief in myself at all. 1
verhrzn Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 I would think that my employers didn't know a good thing when they see it. It would not effect my belief in myself at all. So you'd continue working in a job where you never got a raise or any praise? What if every job was like that? When the only common dominator is you, it's time to start examining whether your own self-perception is off. If you think you're attractive, but never get any validation from the people around you... it's time to start wondering what the common opinion is. 1
ThaWholigan Posted June 17, 2012 Posted June 17, 2012 And for those who don't believe the importance and pervasiveness of external validation in our lives, I'll provide a quick analogy. The idea of job awards and promotions is to serve as an incentive to do good work. Yet they are the epitome of external validation at their very core. If you truly don't believe in or need external validation, would you be perfectly content never getting awarded or promoted for your work? External validation often serves as an incentive in our lives, and a lack thereof often drives us to improve and change our lives...using external validation as a gauge to assess that improvement. We don't live in bubbles, people... The question is: Is the importance and pervasiveness of external validation in our lives a POSITIVE thing, or negative? Or is it neutral, and means either one to each individual person? With the work analogy, none of those things are my concern. My concern would be, whether I enjoy what I'm doing for work, and whether I'm getting enough corn . And either way, I'm going self-employed anyway - I'd be a terrible employee as I hate being told what to do! Any incentive I get from something will first come from myself. The drive to improve my life is personal, and external validation could never provide me with a gauge. Simply because if what I want to do is to the chagrin of people around me, I would never succeed if I relied on their external validation to drive me on, or if I needed their chastisement for an opposite effect, would be the same as fishing for their validation. Neither is a good place for me to be. So external validation has no incentives that I want. As much as I love people and love making others happy as well as happy when people make me happy, it is no great necessity of mine to be externally validated for the things I do. My own validation is all that matters to me.
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