verhrzn Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 As far as the people who feel they are ugly not having a large number of people trying to jump their bones, I think that has a lot more to do with the lack of confidence they display, their feelings about themselves, and their preconceived notion that nobody will find them attractive. If you go out into the world thinking that nobody will find you attractive, you 1. won't attempt to create that spark with anyone, and 2. will assume someone isn't interested so won't recognize someone else open to creating that spark with you. Is it really so hard to convince of the idea that there are people who just flat out are not attractive to someone? Human history is full of stories of single people (*sigh* mostly spinsters) who were perfectly fine, ordinary people, that just no one ever loved. Sometimes people are just unattractive, and it has nothing at all to do with their confidence level. I really wish we could just throw this out the window.... it can end up being a very hurtful idea to internalize, as an unattractive person. If I go out into the world, as an unattractive person, convinced it's my confidence that's the issue, I'd going to quickly find myself very disillusioned. I feel like this is actually a big factor in what I'm struggling through... I get told over and over it's confidence, it's self-esteem, when it's just not. My interactions with guys change not at all according to my confidence level. I could be insecure, I could be confident... it doesn't change the type or amount of guy that hits on me. (AKA: none at all.) Now, maybe I'm just a freak.... but I think there are plenty of people out there who could have acres of confidence, and still not get any attention, for various reasons. Confidence is not the magical elixir of successful dating that its rumored to be.
pteromom Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Sometimes people are just unattractive, and it has nothing at all to do with their confidence level. This is true, but... - YOU are not one of those people by a long shot. And... - Even if someone rates a 1 on physical attractiveness, there is someone somewhere who would find them attractive. Either the person doesn't care about looks (there are people out there who don't) or there is something about the "unattractive" person that they find attractive - maybe the shape of their lips, or the curve of their waist, or their pretty eyes, or the way they walk... 1
pteromom Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Now, maybe I'm just a freak.... but I think there are plenty of people out there who could have acres of confidence, and still not get any attention, for various reasons. Confidence is not the magical elixir of successful dating that its rumored to be. This is true too - sorta. If someone is physically a 10 and confident, they are going to have a larger pool to choose from than someone who is a 5 and confident. But that doesn't mean the 5 has NOBODY to choose from. Also - if someone is physically a 10, but goes into the world thinking nobody would be interested, they are not going to notice all the people trying to flirt with them. They will be oblivious to any interest, because they assume nobody likes them.
verhrzn Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 This is true, but... - YOU are not one of those people by a long shot. And... - Even if someone rates a 1 on physical attractiveness, there is someone somewhere who would find them attractive. Either the person doesn't care about looks (there are people out there who don't) or there is something about the "unattractive" person that they find attractive - maybe the shape of their lips, or the curve of their waist, or their pretty eyes, or the way they walk... Sure, but as I've said before, what's the good of 1 person in China finding you attractive, when you live in Central America, do not international travel, don't speak Chinese, etc. The less people who find you attractive, the harder it will be to find someone. That's just simple math. And I still say... I am indeed one of those people. Which is why I get annoyed about the whole "oh just be confident!" I've tried it, and it's done absolutely zilch for my success rate.
verhrzn Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Also - if someone is physically a 10, but goes into the world thinking nobody would be interested, they are not going to notice all the people trying to flirt with them. They will be oblivious to any interest, because they assume nobody likes them. I highly, highly, sincerely doubt super attractive people don't realize people are flirting with them. I mean, that's stretching logic a bit, don't ya think?
Bristolius Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Attractive can also mean that something about a person draws others to them. So the cheerful elderly woman and the kind homely guy are pleasant to be around and are popular. But the scowling, supercilious, good-looking runway model is not attractive.
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Which is why I get annoyed about the whole "oh just be confident!" I've tried it, and it's done absolutely zilch for my success rate. It is not confidence that is hurting you. I have never "met" someone who is trying as hard to turn around her life as much as you. That in itself shows enormous strength of character - that is a very attractive attribute about you. That is one of the reasons that I feel, that once you have dealt with the self-defeating thought patterns, you will have no problem attracting a real quality man who is right for you V. I am confident you will get there.
verhrzn Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 It is not confidence that is hurting you. I have never "met" someone who is trying as hard to turn around her life as much as you. That in itself shows enormous strength of character - that is a very attractive attribute about you. That is one of the reasons that I feel, that once you have dealt with the self-defeating thought patterns, you will have no problem attracting a real quality man who is right for you V. I am confident you will get there. So it's not my looks, or my confidence, or my personality. Yippee, I'm cured! ... Sorry for the sarcasm, was too tempting. My point about confidence not being the Magical Elixir still stands.
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 So it's not my looks, or my confidence, or my personality. Yippee, I'm cured! ... Sorry for the sarcasm, was too tempting. My point about confidence not being the Magical Elixir still stands. Nothing wrong with a bit of sarcasm. And of course your point about confidence is valid. If you have no confidence you will not get anywhere. Absolutely true. But I don't think your problem is a lack of confidence - you would not be doing half of the stuff you are doing to try and meet men, and turn your life around if you did not have the confidence to begin with. If you could see yourself as you really are as a person, and would not be having these self-hating thoughts, you'd realize you really are attractive.
pteromom Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I highly, highly, sincerely doubt super attractive people don't realize people are flirting with them. I mean, that's stretching logic a bit, don't ya think? No, I think it is possible. Looking back at photos of myself in my 20s, I was very cute, and I thought I was ugly and fat, so I assumed nobody would be interested. If someone was flirting with me, I assumed they were making fun of me, or pitying me.
zengirl Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Perhaps, but we're not discussing all things. We're discussing dating, in particular. And when I get rejected by someone outside of my attractiveness league, that IS a reflection on me. And saying that you're not attracted to something isn't necessarily devaluing it. You're not making any kind of value judgement at all... it's merely a gut-reaction, instant-feeling, "not into it." Oh, yes, REALLY not being attracted to something is fine, whatever it is. But if you were attracted to it (wanted the grapes) and then said you didn't because you couldn't get them, that is different than the instant-feeling of not into it, isn't it? So, I'm confused. I honestly don't like a "desirable" trait: 6 pack abs. I think they look really, really gross. That's my 'gut reaction' -- not because I couldn't get a guy who had them. So, I totally understand not liking something that is objectively attractive -- what I don't get would be not liking it BECAUSE you personally find it attractive but not "get"-able. That's just Sour Grapes. Okay, let me try it another way. If I came onto these boards, and cried about how I couldn't get the hot guy to notice me, most (reasonable) responses would warn me about having realistic expectations, and about not straying outside my league. Stop being attracted to what you can't have. Judge your attractiveness by what you can attract, etc. Well, I think fixating on one person and in particular only liking them because they are hot is bad, regardless of if you are hot. If someone is superficial but does not have superficial things to offer, I agree that is a problem. But I think NOT liking someone because you find them hot is just as superficial as liking them because you find them hot. Honestly. And fixating on your looks in a negative way and not liking them is just as superficial as focusing on them in a positive way and being obsessed with how good they are. If you were fixated on a single hot guy or liked guys only because they were hot, I would be concerned, though, yes. My advice wouldn't have anything to do with leagues though.
serial muse Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I honestly don't understand the attitudes with all the comparisons between self and potential partner where it impacts on who you're attracted to. How can you control attraction to this degree? For myself, I'm attracted to whom I'm attracted to, where what I believe of myself has no reflection on this. I've never run around selecting partners based on what "level" I believe myself to be at. Agree with this..and I don't think that "spark" has to do with relative levels of attractiveness, either. I've been attracted to people who I think -- and I'm speaking of exes and past crushes, who I can look on with more objectivity -- are all over the map in terms of looks. Some were probably better-looking than me, some not. But that's not the essence of attraction. I'm not trying to pretend that looks don't matter - of course, they do. But since the point of the thread was about relative attractiveness being a component of attraction, then no, I don't think it's so simple as "people want to date up" or "people want to date at their level". When I look back at it, I can say now that I certainly wasn't always "dating up." But at the time, I wasn't thinking about that one way or the other, because the bottom line, ladies and gents, is that it's ABSOLUTELY possible to find people sexy and be drawn to them when they aren't regular-featured, guy-next-door handsome (let alone model-handsome). Short guys, chubby guys, guys you wouldn't necessarily notice right off the bat, whatever...the guy can still be sexy if we click.
verhrzn Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Well, I think fixating on one person and in particular only liking them because they are hot is bad, regardless of if you are hot. If someone is superficial but does not have superficial things to offer, I agree that is a problem. But I think NOT liking someone because you find them hot is just as superficial as liking them because you find them hot. Honestly. And fixating on your looks in a negative way and not liking them is just as superficial as focusing on them in a positive way and being obsessed with how good they are. If you were fixated on a single hot guy or liked guys only because they were hot, I would be concerned, though, yes. My advice wouldn't have anything to do with leagues though. So you're advising me to start hitting on hot guys? Really, Zengirl, is this all gonna end well?
Eternal Sunshine Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Ah I feel like lots of people on here like to pretend that we live in some fantasy land full of bunnies and rainbows where looks of the partner and our own looks are not considered to any great extent. I am not saying that anyone consciously judges the other and gives them a mark. It's subconscious and I am sure that all your partners (to the people "we don't pick others based on looks scale") are in the similar ballpark of attractiveness, as was every other long term partner that you had. Doesn't matter how you arrived there. I was simply more aware of the process of physical attraction and broke it down to numbers....because well, I like numbers 1
serial muse Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I was going to add this but didn't edit in time - there's only one thing about my relative attractiveness that I think has altered my perception of others' - my age. I honestly find older guys (40 plus) hot now, in a way I didn't used to. I wonder how much of that is biology vs. socialization vs.....eh, whatever, they're hot. By the way, I know it sounds like rainbows and bunnies , but the truth is that I really have dated guys who, with time and distance separating us, I see as not particularly attractive and I find it interesting that I ever did. But at the time, I sure did; I thought they were hot as hell. So I'm being totally honest here, and I suspect that this is a common thing. Haven't you folks ever looked back at your exes and said - what was I thinking, why did I find this person attractive?? Yet you honestly did. Which suggests it's about some indefinable spark that isn't necessarily related to relative looks.
Eternal Sunshine Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 BUT even with all of this, there is a ballpark. I am sure all your exes have fallen into +- 2 points category, based on your own looks score. That still gives them quite a range, but it's simply not true that what you look like doesn't matter in what kind of options you have.
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I guess what this shows is that some people get into relationships when they know their partners reasonably well, whilst others get to know their partners primarily within the relationship? Or am I off here?
Eternal Sunshine Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I have never gotten into a relationship with someone I knew well. It was always getting to know each other within the relationship. We either start dating instantly or never. That's how it has been for me so far.
SteveC80 Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I think its a defense mechanism to convince themselves the people they have to settle for are somehow very hot when we know its not the case People attacking good looking people are full of it because if they met a hot guy who blew their mind and connected with theyd jump his bones quicker then anything and would realize how awful it was settling for some short out of shape ugly dudes
verhrzn Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 People attacking good looking people are full of it because if they met a hot guy who blew their mind and connected with theyd jump his bones quicker then anything and would realize how awful it was settling for some short out of shape ugly dudes I wouldn't. I have very tangible evidence that I would flee in the other direction if confronted with a hot guy who "blew my mind" and connected with me. But apparently that's awful, because I'm judging the hot guy out of insecurity. Or something. But that's good, because it means I'm not shallow and wouldn't fall for a guy based just on his looks. ... Perhaps just cannot win.
TheFinalWord Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I've heard it before. We are born with what we find attractive and can't help it. But seriously ... How has your own level of attractiveness defined and shaped over the years what you currently find attractive? Discuss... I find I am attracted to hot women, years haven't made a difference I think that is the basic evolutionary biological factor. Men are genetically programmed to desire, young, healthy, women as they are more likely to provide the "survival of the fittest" angle. Healthy is somewhat subjective; the whole nature vs. nurture argument. For example, overweight is often preferred in African American community whereas bone thin in the white community as is tanned skin. But humans are not bound to our biology like other animals. We have the ability of forethought, reflection, causal analysis, etc. So we have another dimension that can override biology. For me, that's where compatibility comes into play. Things like having common interests, lifestyles, habits, etc. For me, a woman that is extremely hot but a dingbat won't hold my attention long. A woman that is 'average' by conventional standards but highly intelligent can start out as attractive in my mind and move towards extremely hot. By intelligent I don't just mean book smart, but a critical thinker, a problem solver, and someone that challenges me. Another massive quality that attracts me more and more as I get older is LOYALTY. This is also probably an evolutionary trait. But higher thinking mixes into this equation. Loyalty means a woman will have your back through thick and thin. It's the highest form of respect. Obviously you can't tell that about a person right away. But if you see those qualities emerging it can make me much more attracted to the woman. I didn't care as much about this when I was younger, but the older I get the more I realize that a hot woman that disrespects you can send you to an early grave
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I wouldn't. I have very tangible evidence that I would flee in the other direction if confronted with a hot guy who "blew my mind" and connected with me. I am not sure of that. If you would get to know the hot guy first only as a hot guy, I think you are probably right. Because then the odds are that he will be looking for someone else than a geeky woman. If however you get to know him as a geek, who shares similar interests and happens to be hot, keep him! Because then the odds that he will be looking for someone else are much lower. The two processes of getting to know people do not have similar outcomes.
TheFinalWord Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I have never gotten into a relationship with someone I knew well. It was always getting to know each other within the relationship. We either start dating instantly or never. That's how it has been for me so far. Same with me. I think a lot of people do that based on their relative ease with change. I know some women that never step outside of their comfort zones. They tend to date men they have known a long time.
verhrzn Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I am not sure of that. If you would get to know the hot guy first only as a hot guy, I think you are probably right. Because then the odds are that he will be looking for someone else than a geeky woman. If however you get to know him as a geek, who shares similar interests and happens to be hot, keep him! Because then the odds that he will be looking for someone else are much lower. The two processes of getting to know people do not have similar outcomes. ..... Nope, pretty sure I'd flee. Hot guy and geek would actually make me flee faster. Ya know, cause the whole "out of my league, realistic about my own attractiveness, judge my own attraction based on who I can pull." There, do I get a medal for non-shallow?
Disenchantedly Yours Posted June 16, 2012 Posted June 16, 2012 TheFinalWord I find I am attracted to hot women, years haven't made a difference I think that is the basic evolutionary biological factor. Men are genetically programmed to desire, young, healthy, women as they are more likely to provide the "survival of the fittest" angle. Finalword, I don't think we are "genetically programmed" with any certainly one way over the other. You began your post with this but when you got into the meat of it, you talked about other factors that are truly better for the survival of a healthy relationship. In all things, I think nature comes down to balance. And it's not simply just me that like young, healthy desirable men. Women and men that are younger tend to be stereotypically more attractive then either of their counterparts. That is, if you only justify health and beauty one way. I simply dislike when we say "men are biologically driven for the youngest hottest women." Women aren't much more different. But I do find that women usually seek out learning more about themselves emotionally in relationships that they more easily/quickly seem to learn that other factors can be much more healthy then just the hot guy. But I'm with you on the rest of your post. As long as you are really into your partner and not dating women you find compatible on a loyatly level then looking to spank the monkey to 18 year olds through porn.
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