Radagast Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 The single thing my ex-wife hated me most for was not my affair. It was that I "managed" my exit from my marriage with her. She felt that that was heinous and the worst thing I could possibly do. Yet to me, and to my counsellor, it was perfectly rational and the recommended approach. Particularly as there were children (teenagers) involved. I have seen here too where the unfaithful spouse is managing an exit that this gets widely slated and somehow regarded as immoral or unethical. To me it is common sense. In a relationship where communication is poor, as it would have to be for an affair to be taking place, implying that an unfaithful spouse should be discussing their doubts about the future of the marriage with the partner they are considering leaving seems wishful thinking, or pie in the sky. If they had the kind of relationship where they could discuss those kinds of issues they would not be having to consider leaving, after all! If your relationship has broken down to the extent that you are having an affair, and are considering leaving and forming a permanent relationship with your new partner, it makes perfect rational sense to sort out in your own mind first what it is you really want or need to do, before dropping a bombshell on your family that you're considering leaving, especially if you are still in the thinking it through stage and it might actually never come to pass and then you will have introduced insecurity and trauma into their lives for nothing. I think doing the ground work, going to counselling and making sure that this is what you want to do, and then letting your spouse know that you intend leaving them once you find a suitable place to stay and that you intend to start divorce proceedings makes much more sense than telling them "I'm having an affair" before you know what you want to do about it. Chances are in that situation the panic and disruption caused by the revelation will ricochet for years to come and damage your marriage and your family but also not allow you adequate time to prepare for fallout over which you may have no control. If you don't know what you want and those decisions are suddenly being taken for you either by your spouse moving out and wanting to end the marriage or by their wanting to fix the marriage through counselling and you're forbidden from ever seeing your lover again when you had not decided what you wanted, whether to invest in the affair or in the marriage, you will simply go into crisis mode and do whatever you need to do to survive rather than actually resolving issues and I don't think this is really sustainable long term, whichever relationship you subsequently land up in. Far better in my opinion to work things out so that the future is resolved and sustainable, whether you choose to leave through a managed exit or to stay, in which case your family will have been spared the trauma of the announcement that did not lead anywhere but caused insecurity and distress unnecessarily. I can imagine that for the "betrayed" spouse they feel that why should the unfaithful spouse get to make the decision about whether the marriage lives or dies, but by the same token why should the "betrayed" spouse get to make that decision for the unfaithful spouse? One is no more ethical or moral than the other, it's simply selfishness either way. And of course each party would want to be the one to make the decision at the other person's expense, so of course whoever holds the knowledge would want to hang on to the agency rather than give it to someone who will have their own, rather than their spouse's, best interests at heart. Of course. But that is as I said just the same selfishness in a different disguise, it is no more morally pure simply because it is then the "betrayed" spouse doing it. Whoever gets to do it is doing it for selfish reasons. I'm interested in whether other than the "I would rather be the one to say whether the plug gets pulled or not" argument whether there are any reasons people have for seeing a managed exit as bad. I've not come across any here nor have I read any nor can I think of any myself, and as I said the "managed exit" is a strategy supported by counsellors as being rational and sensible so I'd be interested if there were other views based on anything other than the "because I want to be the one to decide" argument.
SomedayDig Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) Sorry for being blunt here...... There is no justification. Period. Exit the marriage. THEN have another relationship. I think this psycho-babble of "managed exit" is a lame excuse for cowardice/indecision. EDIT: To say that even though my fWW and I are working on reconciliation, we BOTH have referred to her affair and fear of coming forward with the info as cowardly. Edited June 11, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator Language 6
Spark1111 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I, I, I, me, me, me, what I want trumps all else and others. What is wrong with simply stating: I have developed feelings for another and wish to separate while I explore those feelings. You may do the same. Let's go to counseling to see if we have a marriage worth saving. If we do, great. If we don't, then we can plan the kindest way to transition our children. Too grown up for you? You would actually have to give up some control of the outcome, one that may not be what you want. Frightening for narcissists and the self-absorbed, but truly so grown up: an adult authentically owning their actions with honesty and integrity. 8
woinlove Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I agree with Spark. If I ever had an exit to "manage", I sure hope I would choose honesty, openness and respect. Otherwise, I'd have good reason to feel bad about my actions and words. 3
Owl Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Pretty much gotta agree with all the other responses...it might seem like a great idea to the person who's already engaged in an affair and decides to "manage their exit"...but in reality it's completely, totally self-centered and self-focused. That kind of exit speaks volumes about the person who executes it...and should be a 'red flag' to the person that the married person is leaving for. It's an indicator. 1
96nole Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Pretty much gotta agree with all the other responses...it might seem like a great idea to the person who's already engaged in an affair and decides to "manage their exit"...but in reality it's completely, totally self-centered and self-focused. That kind of exit speaks volumes about the person who executes it...and should be a 'red flag' to the person that the married person is leaving for. It's an indicator. I don't think the other person is going to see a 'red flag'. They perceive themselves as the 'savior' of the cheating spouse. If the BS was doing what they should have been doing then there wouldn't have been a need for the other person. At least that's what they would be thinking. As for my ex, I think she was going to try to manage her exit. But I found her emails to the OM and she got her a*s thrown out before she could manage it. She was very selfish. After the first time she cheated last year she made the comment: 'I only want what's best for me"
frozensprouts Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 what the saying about putting lipstick on a pig? you can do it, but it's still a pig...a rose by any name still smells as sweet, and a skunk cabbage by any other name still stinks just as much... a person has the right to know all the pertinent information in their marriage so that they can make an informed decision about what they want to do. If their spouse is cheating, they deserve to know this, and I think that a "managed exit' speaks much more about the underlying dishonesty and inability to take any sort of responsibility on the part of the wayward spouse. In short, they only want to cover their own rear and don't care a whit for anyone else but their sorry selves. It may surprise them to know that their spouse really is an adult, capable of making adult decisions about their life... i think it also speaks to the being a self centered coward. They either view their spouse as childlike, an somehow not capable of "handling the truth" or as some kind of vile snake who deserves all of the blame for what happened in their marriage...the wayward spouses are totally unwilling to see that they played a part in the state of their marriage (but they are often the first to crow " both spouses play a role when one spouse decides to cheat"!...where does the "both" go when they are called upon to take responsibility for their part? All of sudden , their spouse is a terrible person, and they are lucky to have escaped the grasp of their talons) I think a "managed exit" is often the end result of a Machiavellian self centered mindset that cares only for the self and not anyone else. They are afraid that divorce may go harder on them if their spouse knows they cheated. They will lose the "sympathy factor" from their ex spouse ( "things just went wrong for us, it's no ones fault, so I'll be "nice" when we divorce and won't be angry" is what the creator of a "managed exit" hopes for, as if their spouse finds out they cheated, the divorce may be a whole lot more painful for them) It's the action of a coward who is too scarred to stand up and say " I've had enough" or" I've been unfaithful and now I'm leaving as I am not happy here anymore"...rather than own up to things like an adult, they'd rather slink away like a child trying to make a "managed exit" away with all the cookies from the jar... besides, the whole idea that the spouse who isn't happy in the marriage can somehow "fix" the marriage on their own makes no sense, unless one feels that the marriage being bad is all because of them. How can their spouse be expected to "fix" the marriage if they don't even know their spouse isn't happy? 4
Furious Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I'm pretty sure you mentioned in another thread that your first wife was previously married and the reason she ended the marriage was for the OM she was having an affair with. And that the OM was you. So...you have been both the OM and then the WS to your first wife. Please clarify if am mistaken.
silktricks Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I think this part of your post is perfectly reasonable: "I think doing the ground work, going to counselling and making sure that this is what you want to do, and then letting your spouse know that you intend leaving them once you find a suitable place to stay and that you intend to start divorce proceedings" It's just that it should be done prior to starting an affair. 6
Author Radagast Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 I think this part of your post is perfectly reasonable: "I think doing the ground work, going to counselling and making sure that this is what you want to do, and then letting your spouse know that you intend leaving them once you find a suitable place to stay and that you intend to start divorce proceedings" It's just that it should be done prior to starting an affair. Fair enough. But that horse has long bolted. It's about handling what happens where you find yourself, not how you might have done things differently from a different point in time. I don't think anyone's worked out how to rewind their lives.
Author Radagast Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 what the saying about putting lipstick on a pig? you can do it, but it's still a pig...a rose by any name still smells as sweet, and a skunk cabbage by any other name still stinks just as much... a person has the right to know all the pertinent information in their marriage so that they can make an informed decision about what they want to do. If their spouse is cheating, they deserve to know this, and I think that a "managed exit' speaks much more about the underlying dishonesty and inability to take any sort of responsibility on the part of the wayward spouse. In short, they only want to cover their own rear and don't care a whit for anyone else but their sorry selves. It may surprise them to know that their spouse really is an adult, capable of making adult decisions about their life... i think it also speaks to the being a self centered coward. They either view their spouse as childlike, an somehow not capable of "handling the truth" or as some kind of vile snake who deserves all of the blame for what happened in their marriage...the wayward spouses are totally unwilling to see that they played a part in the state of their marriage (but they are often the first to crow " both spouses play a role when one spouse decides to cheat"!...where does the "both" go when they are called upon to take responsibility for their part? All of sudden , their spouse is a terrible person, and they are lucky to have escaped the grasp of their talons) I think a "managed exit" is often the end result of a Machiavellian self centered mindset that cares only for the self and not anyone else. They are afraid that divorce may go harder on them if their spouse knows they cheated. They will lose the "sympathy factor" from their ex spouse ( "things just went wrong for us, it's no ones fault, so I'll be "nice" when we divorce and won't be angry" is what the creator of a "managed exit" hopes for, as if their spouse finds out they cheated, the divorce may be a whole lot more painful for them) It's the action of a coward who is too scarred to stand up and say " I've had enough" or" I've been unfaithful and now I'm leaving as I am not happy here anymore"...rather than own up to things like an adult, they'd rather slink away like a child trying to make a "managed exit" away with all the cookies from the jar... besides, the whole idea that the spouse who isn't happy in the marriage can somehow "fix" the marriage on their own makes no sense, unless one feels that the marriage being bad is all because of them. How can their spouse be expected to "fix" the marriage if they don't even know their spouse isn't happy? I'm not sure where you get the idea about not telling the spouse about the affair. That was not what I meant at all. I told my ex-wife about the affair and that I planned to leave, as soon as I'd found a suitable place to move to. Admittedly there are some who post here of managing their exit without telling the spouse about the affair, but that was not what I was conveying with my use of the term nor what my ex-wife understood by it when she used the term since she knew that I was leaving because I had met and fallen in love with (and yes, had an affair with) someone else. What she resented was not that I withheld that from her, since I did not. What she resented was that I did not do what she had done previously, which was move out the instant I had doubts about the future of the marriage and mull things over from afar before deciding whether to make the break permanent or get back together again. It was in fact the very experience of her having done this, and the very traumatic impact it had on the children, that led to my staying while I got counselling and worked out what I needed to do because to my mind to leave and subject the children to that upheaval again would have been selfish beyond words, having seen what it did to them. I thought, and my counsellor agreed, that it would be far better to prepare them for the split with family counselling, to take the time to find a decent home for them and myself and to be sure about leaving before subjecting everyone else to the upheaval. My ex-wife's version may seem nobler, simply announcing that she wanted "time out" and packing a bag and storming off leaving the children and myself not knowing what was going on while she went to "find herself" which on reflection was what she'd done in her first marriage when she moved in with me. Having seen the impact on the kids I could not do the same to them in good conscience.
MissBee Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) I don't see what managed exits have to do with affairs frankly. I see the two as unrelated. Surely people who want to leave their marriages, who don't have affair partners, still have stuff to manage and sort out right? In fact, having an affair seems to be a poor way of managing one's exit. A well-managed exit IMO would be one where you extricate yourself from your marriage through counseling and communicating that you want to leave and allowing your spouse to also plan how they will handle your leaving (without complicating some other person's life on top of it). It is obviously stressful to manage an exit so why try to also manage a new romance on top of it? But this is assuming someone is leaving their marriage of their own volition without another partner in the wings. If you built a life together, paid bills together, etc...how can one person organize how these logistical things will be done alone??? It seems pretty impossible and irresponsible.I compare it to a roommate situation. If you and I signed a lease together, it is agreed that I will live there, split half the bills with you etc. until X time. I am free to at any time decide I no longer want to live there. Surely the first second I decide this won't be when I will tell you, but once I am sure I should. The courteous thing for me to do is not to spring it on you the day before I leave but tell you that I am at least thinking about moving, so you can also get your ducks in order and plan for this possibility, as my leaving is obviously going to change your plans. It is not that you get to decide that I can't leave...but it's that I KNOW my leaving changes the game and your daily routine, so I need to also allow you the time to sort that out. If managing your exit just means deciding you want to leave and deciding how you will tell your spouse and then break it to them so that you both can reorganize your lives in light of your new situation...it's awesome. The concept of a managed exit where it is all a bug secret until your big reveal only makes to me for abusive relationships where you are in danger. In that case manage away single-handedly. But if you are not in danger, telling your spouse that you potentially want to divorce/separate seems more efficient so that BOTH parents or spouses (if there are no kids) can get the shock out of the way and work through it. If your relationship has broken down to the extent that you are having an affair, and are considering leaving and forming a permanent relationship with your new partner, it makes perfect rational sense to sort out in your own mind first what it is you really want or need to do, before dropping a bombshell on your family that you're considering leaving, especially if you are still in the thinking it through stage and it might actually never come to pass and then you will have introduced insecurity and trauma into their lives for nothing. If the marriage is so broken down and they don't have a relationship where they can talk, as you've explained, then frankly, your family is most likely already suffering. The relationship needs repairing if you plan to stay anyway...so I don't get this. How can you go to counseling and try to sort your mind out about such a broken down relationship all by yourself, then decide (without your partner who is also part of the brokenness) you want to stay in the relationship? The problem with all this managing is that it seems like it is not just about a person sorting their mind out....but about a person trying to make autonomous decisionss in a situation that is by nature a partnership...even if broken. I am curious about where a managed exit doesn't become an exit after all...but as you've stated, maybe the person decides to stay...how does this work? As you are describing a relationship SO bad that these people can't express any feelings of unhappiness or wanting to separate to each other...so how do you go from the extreme of managing your exit, alone, in such a broken down relationship, to all of a sudden you realized through all the managing that you should stay? It's either so bad that you cannot speak to this person at all ( and in abusive situations where your life is at risk, I totally believe this makes sense) OR it's not that bad, since you decided to stay, and you therefore can bring up your feelings to them. Edited June 11, 2012 by MissBee
Owl Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Actually...a "managed exit" NOT INVOLVING AN AFFAIR may not be so bad. Having a plan in place to support the family, having worked through financials so that everything is fairly distributed...those are all good things. The problem with a "managed exit" where you're really just leaving to be with someone else is the impacts of having that affair thrown in as well. Ask your ex-wife how that made her feel, for example. See what she says on the subject...and what her preference would have been on the "managed exit" concept. Simple enough, no? 1
beenburned Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Rad, I don't think the BS objects to the WS wanting a divorce from them, they object to HOW they go about doing it.(being fair for BOTH partners) If the WS blindsides the BS(both emotionally and financially), without affording them the same consideration and advance planning opportunities they had, of course they should be outraged at being treated so unfairly. A marriage is an equal partnership. The kind and fair thing to do is to sit down and plan the divorce together, to the satisfaction of BOTH parties. Where I live hiding assets/money years in advance in preparation of divorce is illegal/fraud. Also I live in a state where adultery is still a fault, and is considered in deciding the division of assets/money. But I guess it's just too much to think that a cheater is even capable of being kind or fair to the spouse he/she is leaving!(especially if there is an affair partner involved) 5
Spark1111 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I'm confused. Your OP stated "while being an affair." It sounded as if one needed to mull over what one wanted to do before making a final decision to mange one's exit from the marriage. It certainly sounded that the BS was not being informed of what one, the spouse, was managing while already being in an affair. So is the question now: Is it better to pack a bag and leave abruptly, throwing the family into upheaval, to pursue an affair worse than staying in the family home, seeking counseling and trying to transition the kids while having an affair? Is that the question?
Furious Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I'm pretty sure you mentioned in another thread that your first wife was previously married and the reason she ended the marriage was for the OM she was having an affair with. And that the OM was you. So...you have been both the OM and then the WS to your first wife. Please clarify if am mistaken. Radagast, was I mistaken?
Spark1111 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 If that is the question, I think they both stink! Somewhere along the lines both spouses KNEW they were unhappy; BOTH spouses knew they were developing feelings for another. Therefore BOTH parents had many choices to manage a fix or manage an exit WAAAAAYY before EITHER parent had an affair with anyone else. BOTH parents were selfish, immature, and certainly not thinking of the welfare of their children when BOTH parents either moved out or stayed home to have affairs. You might me able to manage an exit, but no one can manage upheaval. Children are pained by both sceanarios because children could give a rat's patootie about your romantic happiness. IMHO 3
xxoo Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I think doing the ground work, going to counselling and making sure that this is what you want to do, and then letting your spouse know that you intend leaving them once you find a suitable place to stay and that you intend to start divorce proceedings makes much more sense than telling them "I'm having an affair" before you know what you want to do about it.. I'm not sure where you get the idea about not telling the spouse about the affair. That was not what I meant at all. I told my ex-wife about the affair and that I planned to leave, as soon as I'd found a suitable place to move to. . I'm confused. The former sounds like you advise against disclosing the affair until all ducks are in a row, and the latter sounds like you disclosed the affair before finding a suitable place to live. WHat do you mean by "managed exit", and at what point is the affair disclosed? Obviously, it isn't an "exit" until you are planning to exit.... 3
Author Radagast Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 Rad, I don't think the BS objects to the WS wanting a divorce from them, they object to HOW they go about doing it.(being fair for BOTH partners) If the WS blindsides the BS(both emotionally and financially), without affording them the same consideration and advance planning opportunities they had, of course they should be outraged at being treated so unfairly. A marriage is an equal partnership. The kind and fair thing to do is to sit down and plan the divorce together, to the satisfaction of BOTH parties. Where I live hiding assets/money years in advance in preparation of divorce is illegal/fraud. Also I live in a state where adultery is still a fault, and is considered in deciding the division of assets/money. But I guess it's just too much to think that a cheater is even capable of being kind or fair to the spouse he/she is leaving!(especially if there is an affair partner involved) There was no hiding of assets. We had separated our finances during the previous separation, and they remained separate. We did jointly own a house and both paid equally into the mortgage each month so dividing that was very simple. In the UK adultery is not taken into account when dividing assets, so that would not have impacted the outcome. As it was, I gave my ex-wife a very generous settlement, more generous than my lawyer recommended as fair, and even more generous than her lawyer recommended. She was not financially disadvantaged in that way and I certainly would never advocate hiding assets or anything illegal. That was not what I meant by managing the exit. We did plan the divorce together, insofar as I retained a lawyer for her at the same time as I retained a lawyer for myself, and I sent her all the documents I was proposing to submit as grounds for the divorce. I had given her due notice of my intention to move out as soon as I found somewhere suitable, and once I'd found something and the kids were happy with it we told her when we planned to leave and then did so. She was not kept in the dark. She knew where we'd be living, she knew that the plan was for my wife to join us at a later date and I was scrupulously honest with her throughout the divorce. Emotionally I can't say if it was fair or not. She knew when I agreed to take her back that I was unhappy about the marriage, and that I wanted things to change, and she'd promised to address my concerns and hadn't. And knew she hadn't. And knew she'd not kept her promise of marriage counselling. She knew I was not happy. Should I have told her sooner I'd met someone else? Quite possibly, although when I did tell her she chose not to believe me, so I'm not sure if that would have changed much. Certainly when I did tell her she did not insist I move out, or threaten to move out herself. She accused me of trying to manipulate her into returning to marriage counselling by scaring her with idle threats and seemed not to take it seriously. Perhaps at that point I should have left but then again I did need to find somewhere suitable to live, close enough to my kids' school and my work, and back then there simply wasn't much happening in the rental market (very different now since the crash). If the kids had wanted to stay with her it could have happened a lot quicker but I could not force them to stay with her if they did not want to.
Author Radagast Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 I'm confused. Your OP stated "while being an affair." It sounded as if one needed to mull over what one wanted to do before making a final decision to mange one's exit from the marriage. It certainly sounded that the BS was not being informed of what one, the spouse, was managing while already being in an affair. So is the question now: Is it better to pack a bag and leave abruptly, throwing the family into upheaval, to pursue an affair worse than staying in the family home, seeking counseling and trying to transition the kids while having an affair? Is that the question? I'm not entirely clear I understand your rephrasing. Perhaps I can clarify: I'm not asking whether or not the affair is right. At the point of "managing an exit", the affair exists. It can't be undone. The question is how best to proceed at that point. So, "leaving before you have an affair" is clearly not a choice at that point. My ex-wife's preferred strategy was to have doubts about the marriage and immediately separate to take time to think things through. And yes, that did mean upheaval. But clearly she still considered that preferable to my option. My option was to keep the family together while seeking counselling to work out what I needed to do, and then to transition the kids through family counselling, to give my ex-wife due notice of my intention to leave (and why) and to prepare everyone for the split. I'm not sure if that answers?
Author Radagast Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 Radagast, was I mistaken? Apologies, I missed this. You are correct. My ex-wife left her first marriage to move in with me. We later married.
Author Radagast Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 I'm confused. The former sounds like you advise against disclosing the affair until all ducks are in a row, and the latter sounds like you disclosed the affair before finding a suitable place to live. WHat do you mean by "managed exit", and at what point is the affair disclosed? Obviously, it isn't an "exit" until you are planning to exit.... I do not advise against disclosing the affair until all the ducks are in a row. I'm not entirely sure what ducks you're referring to here? What I was "advising", insofar I was advising rather than just recounting what I did and asking why there seems to be such hostility about people doing such, was first being sure that one wanted to exit, and then disclosing. I told my ex-wife I wanted to leave and why, and that I would do so when I found a suitable place to stay, and that I would be filing for divorce (and the grounds for doing so, as per UK law). So yes, she was "blindsided" in that she did not know about the affair from the first kiss, she was only told about it (by me, she may well have been told earlier by others who knew) at the point where I had decided that it was not going to be a fling and that I wanted to leave the marriage. No she was not blindsided in that she knew I planned to leave well before I left, she knew about the affair before the divorce, she knew the children and I were going for family counselling and was invited to join us but declined, she was not defrauded financially and she was allowed to stay on in the family home and given the bigger, better car, the furniture and household contents, etc while I made do with hand-me-downs from friends and family until I could purchase my own. I hope that clarifies rather than sounding defensive.
Furious Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Apologies, I missed this. You are correct. My ex-wife left her first marriage to move in with me. We later married. Was that also a "managed exit"? It appears that you did to her what she did to her first husband.
xxoo Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 she was only told about it (by me, she may well have been told earlier by others who knew) at the point where I had decided that it was not going to be a fling and that I wanted to leave the marriage. I think the "managed" exit people usually get worked up about is when a WS plans to leave, and is making plans to leave, without giving the BS a heads-up at all, depriving the BS of a similar opportunity to make plans. It sounds like yours was not that type, and as such the outrage may not apply to you in this circumstance. 1
frozensprouts Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 hwy did your ex wife not obtain the services of a lawyer for herself? why did you do this for her, instead of giving her the option to do so herself? I know , on the surface, it may seem very magnanimous , but it sounds very controlling to me. Did she not have any funds of her own that she could use to hire an attorney t represent her best interests? why did you have to do this for her? if she didn't have the funds for herself, why not allow her access to the funds and allow her to select her own attorney?
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