pureinheart Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Having been the BS to two serial cheaters, I must say I never understood why a BS would want to speak to the OW. Speak to your husband, he has all the information you want. If you do not trust him to tell the truth and feel you have to go searching elsewhere, you have a pretty bad relationship in my opinion, and not much to build on. Thus as the OW, I would most likely redirect the BS to her spouse. I agree with this and never wanted to talk to the OW in any of my situations. Also I played the detective, it was exhausting and time comsuming, it made me feel bad about me. My time would have been better spent looking at my own issues and should have followed what is recommended in bold in that particular incident.
Owl Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I agree with this and never wanted to talk to the OW in any of my situations. Also I played the detective, it was exhausting and time comsuming, it made me feel bad about me. My time would have been better spent looking at my own issues and should have followed what is recommended in bold in that particular incident. That's interesting...so you're feeling was that in your situations, it was your own issues that you needed to work on, rather than trying to find out the scope of the betrayal that you were expected to forgive as part of reconciliation? Did you successfully reconcile after working on your own issues? Editted to add: I read again and realized that you didn't follow the path that you recommend. So that kind of negates my question as to whether or not following that path worked for you.
Spark1111 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 the question was raised about why would a betrayed spouse even as an other man/woman questions re: the affair and expect an honest answer... a couple of reasons spring to my mind... (a) perhaps they are at the end of their rope and desperate for any information they can get (b) perhaps they feel they need information and have enough trust/faith in other people that they will tell the truth. i think it's a pretty sad reflection on humanity that some feel an other man/woman will always lie or at least hide the truth. This really makes me wonder if their is any honesty to an affair at all. If a spouse knows about the relationship ( or even suspects one exists) why would an other man/woman lie about it when questioned? Perhaps it could be rationalized as " I'm protecting my married man/woman", but really, it's just another lie told to protect what? If the married man/woman truly wants to be with their affair partner, would this not be an an opportunity to have that happen with a little a bit of honesty and dignity about it? What is their to be gained by continuing to lie? Why is their such a need to hide? Great post! When DDay hit, I couldn't understand all the lying and hiding. Finding out was almost a relief as it explained so much of his distant, preoccupied behavior. So, okay you're in love. I've been in love. Why weren't you shouting it from the roof tops? Why was everyone running and hiding and sneaking around? Why didn't you just tell me the truth and separate? Why wasn't she returning my phone calls? Why was he saying we were just friends? It was almost laughable how quickly he minimized her and the whole affair. Despicable, really. And she was protecting him as he threw her under the bus to me? Why? 1
Author MissBee Posted June 11, 2012 Author Posted June 11, 2012 (edited) On your side? Hardly. Your xMM wasn't "protecting" you when he refused to reveal your identity - he was protecting only HIMSELF. Not only was he a coward to his wife, but he didn't trust you enough to ultimately keep your mouth shut and possibly further incriminate him. It's obvious you've convinced yourself otherwise, but you've been fooling yourself. xMM's only goal in keeping your identity a secret was to minimize the fallout for him, not you. I have to agree that a MM not revealing the OW's identity may not at all be about protecting the OW, but protecting himself. Each time he directed me as to what I was to say, and I would have had she called (even when I didn’t agree) This kind of thing for example, is not something I could have done. I really realize I'm not cut out for OW-hood lol. This is not a dig at you btw skylar. I'm just thinking that I allowed myself to engage in the A because a lot of how it was conducted allowed me to at least feel like my hands were clean. There was never any rehearsal of things to say to her etc. if found out, I didn't know her, I didn't have to actively hide or lie myself, so I think that allowed my conscience to be a bit more clear. It was solely up to him and had he ever warned me about her finding out and tried to coach me on what to say or do...it would become really too much for me and I'd abandon ship. In short, I was not involved in any of the direct planning of the logistics of the deception, if it was an A where I had to do that, I simply wouldn't have done it. I would not have been a ride or die OW at all. The other day I was watching a video on Youtube and they were discussing different kinds of OW...from the preferred kind to the least preferred kind. The least preferred was the kind who would call up the wife and initiate confrontations, and the most preferred was the one who could even know the wife and be her friend and never ever say anything and back MM at all cost. Then there were other kinds in between. I suppose the ride or die OW benefits the MM most and the former is the biggest nuisance. I'd fall in the middle. I'd never initiate any confrontation, but also wouldn't back him at all cost. Edited June 11, 2012 by MissBee
Furious Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I believe that in most cases admitting the truth to the BS would be handing over control, the WS and OW/OM have owned that control and are unlikely to relinquish it voluntarily without solid proof. 2
nofool4u Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I got to thinking of ddays and the myriad of ways in which they can occur and what can go down and wanted to discuss: If your MM/MW's spouse finds out about the affair and contacts you to inquire about the nature of your relationship with their spouse, would you admit it? I don't see why they wouldn't admit it. They owe them, at the very least, the truth.
nofool4u Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 Having been the BS to two serial cheaters, I must say I never understood why a BS would want to speak to the OW. I agree with this. As much as the anger towards an OW/OM is justified, there is nothing to be gained from talking to them, unless they thought they needed to know the whole truth and the WS isn't giving it to them. For me, I didn't need to speak to the OM. I knew all the truth I needed to know, and that is that there was an affair.
Spark1111 Posted June 11, 2012 Posted June 11, 2012 I would not admit to or divulge any information about the A to BW. If she asked about the nature of the R, I would adamantly assert that we were friends and nothing more. If she knew about the A and was asking for info, I would simply tell her she’ll have to ask her H. I wouldn’t tell BW anything out of loyalty to xMM (contingent on his loyalty to me). He didn’t throw me under the bus on dday and was protective of my identity. I actually feel like xMM was very much on my side, and I would be on his side by protecting him in return. BW has never contacted me, but on a couple of occasions xMM warned me of the possibility. Each time he directed me as to what I was to say, and I would have had she called (even when I didn’t agree). I would tell BW whatever story xMM ask of me so it would be a futile effort on her part and only aid in xMM’s gaslighting. At times, I feel horrible at the thought of continuing/strengthening XMM’s lies to her and/or not recognizing the magnitude of hurt, desperation, humility, or maybe even embarrassment that may come with her even having to ask me. At times, I feel such a (unjustifiable) despise for her that I couldn't care less. However, the huge amount of shame and anxiety I would feel if contacted by her is always constant. Skylar, your MM claiming to have protected your identity (how noble ) was more of an attempt to save his own azz. If his dday was anything like mine, he made believe he hardly knew you; he minimized you; he made her think she was crazy. Not only did he gaslight her about you, he gaslighted you about what he told her. If I didn't have an armful of undisclosed evidence, such as cell phone bills, emails and bank statements, he may have succeeded in convincing me his "friend" at work, this lonely single mom he was only helping with advice about her child(how noble) was really chasing him but he was avoiding her the best he could. Your MM? How lucky can you get? He had two women believing him! 2
cocorico Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I believe that in most cases admitting the truth to the BS would be handing over control, the WS and OW/OM have owned that control and are unlikely to relinquish it voluntarily without solid proof. It hasn't to do with control. Our R was none of her business and she had no right to expect anything from me. She had a R of sorts with him, and if she wanted anything he was the one she should approach.
cocorico Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 "normal ow and normal ow"..........what you really mean is one who doesn't break "the rules", the rule is an ow who will lie for her mm and who buys into whatever bs he is selling about why he can't be truthful and tell the wife. What "rules"? Did you sign up for rules because I didn't. I certainly did not agree to lie to the BW or to buy into anything! What an insulting view of OW! I am sorry if your R was like that but mine and most others are not. I said I would not have disclosed to her had there been a DDay and she contacted me. I did not say I would lie to her and I certainly would not follow anyone's script or "rules". I would hang up the phone and if she persisted I would take action to stop the harassment. Luckily there was no DDay so it is all hypothetical.
Furious Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 It hasn't to do with control. Our R was none of her business and she had no right to expect anything from me. She had a R of sorts with him, and if she wanted anything he was the one she should approach. She had no right to know you were sleeping with her husband, that you inserted yourself into her marriage without her knowledge. Your affair was none of her business. Don't tell me it's not about control. 4
Spark1111 Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 It hasn't to do with control. Our R was none of her business and she had no right to expect anything from me. She had a R of sorts with him, and if she wanted anything he was the one she should approach. Just curious and trying to understand this mindset, which is not unusual.... Would it be your be your business if you discovered your MM had another OW? Would you only go to him for the truth of that loving text you discovered sent to a woman you knew NOT to be his wife? Maybe the new secretary he mentioned once or twice and never again? Would you want her to entertain a phone call from you after he denied it was anything while your gut is screaming differently? Because if you can truly put yourself in that scenario, where would you seek your answers?
cocorico Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Just curious and trying to understand this mindset, which is not unusual.... Would it be your be your business if you discovered your MM had another OW? Would you only go to him for the truth of that loving text you discovered sent to a woman you knew NOT to be his wife? Maybe the new secretary he mentioned once or twice and never again? Would you want her to entertain a phone call from you after he denied it was anything while your gut is screaming differently? Because if you can truly put yourself in that scenario, where would you seek your answers? I would seek answers from him. If I did not trust those answers I would not have a R worth fighting for. If I found a loving text not to me ( nor his mum) I would not care who it was to. W, OOW, what difference would it make? If someone tells you they love only you then they have no business to be sending loving texts to others. Aside from their mums, of course, but those texts would usually be different. If I found such a text and I spoke to him and did not like, or did not trust, the answer, I would certainly not approach the recipient. I'd resolve things with him one way or another, whichever outcome I chose.
Silly_Girl Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I got to thinking of ddays and the myriad of ways in which they can occur and what can go down and wanted to discuss: If your MM/MW's spouse finds out about the affair and contacts you to inquire about the nature of your relationship with their spouse, would you admit it? Has this happened to anyone before? What would/were be your reasons for admitting to it, if you would/did? What were/would be your reasons for denying it if you would/have? Yes, I absolutely would have been honest with her. I told him if he didn't tell her, I would. I posted here for advice and guidance. I didn't like that 2 of us had info she wasn't in receipt of. Didn't like it when it happened to me with my ex (several times). I was never comfortable with that aspect, I don't judge others who choose to deny or have a different outlook, my opinion and take on it was based on my views and the situation I was in at the time. There were never justifiable reasons to lie to her, in my view. It was pretty much the only area of conflict for he and I during the affair 1
cocorico Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 She had no right to know you were sleeping with her husband, that you inserted yourself into her marriage without her knowledge. Your affair was none of her business. Don't tell me it's not about control. It's not about control. It's about appropriateness. My R is my business not hers. I would not phone her up to ask her about her M. If I needed to know, say, if she had a STD, or such, I should direct my questions to him. He is the one I have a R with, not her. If she had questions, he was her point of call. Not me. And no, she had no right to know I was making love with the man she was married to. She may have some right to know he was making love to someone else but she had no right to know it was me. I don't share details of my love life with strangers. And no, I did not "insert myself into her marriage." I had a separate, different R with the man she happened to be M to that had nothing at all to do with her M.
Owl Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 I would seek answers from him. If I did not trust those answers I would not have a R worth fighting for. If I found a loving text not to me ( nor his mum) I would not care who it was to. W, OOW, what difference would it make? If someone tells you they love only you then they have no business to be sending loving texts to others. Aside from their mums, of course, but those texts would usually be different. If I found such a text and I spoke to him and did not like, or did not trust, the answer, I would certainly not approach the recipient. I'd resolve things with him one way or another, whichever outcome I chose. And do you believe that this would still be your plan five years from now, after you've invested all of your time, love, energy, and effort into the relationship? After you've purchased a house together, began raising kids together, and have lived together for all that time to the point where you can't even hardly recall what life was like when he wasn't in it? 1
Owl Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 And no, I did not "insert myself into her marriage." I had a separate, different R with the man she happened to be M to that had nothing at all to do with her M. Except for the fact that everything he invests in his relationship with you is something that SHOULD be invested into the marriage. See...it's not a matter of "one has nothing to do with the other"...the affair relationship comes AT THE EXPENSE of the marital relationship. He's got finite resources. What he invests in you...he stops investing in her. Therefore...your relationship directly impacts and effects the marital relationship...which gives her every reason to NOT view your relationship as something completely seperate. Life isn't a vacuum...what we do impacts others. We can choose to deliberately blind ourselves to what our actions do to others...but that in no way NEGATES those impacts to others. You can choose to view your relationship as seperate...but that doesn't mean that she will, or should, share your viewpoint. 5
Furious Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 It's not about control. It's about appropriateness. My R is my business not hers. I would not phone her up to ask her about her M. If I needed to know, say, if she had a STD, or such, I should direct my questions to him. He is the one I have a R with, not her. If she had questions, he was her point of call. Not me. And no, she had no right to know I was making love with the man she was married to. She may have some right to know he was making love to someone else but she had no right to know it was me. I don't share details of my love life with strangers. And no, I did not "insert myself into her marriage." I had a separate, different R with the man she happened to be M to that had nothing at all to do with her M. When you deny someone the truth, I call that controlling the truth. 2
Author MissBee Posted June 12, 2012 Author Posted June 12, 2012 He's got finite resources. What he invests in you...he stops investing in her. Therefore...your relationship directly impacts and effects the marital relationship...which gives her every reason to NOT view your relationship as something completely seperate. Life isn't a vacuum...what we do impacts others. We can choose to deliberately blind ourselves to what our actions do to others...but that in no way NEGATES those impacts to others. You can choose to view your relationship as seperate...but that doesn't mean that she will, or should, share your viewpoint. This is true. No one lives in a vacuum...even the actions of your neighbors, depending on what those actions are, can ricochet and affect you and your family or the neighborhood you live in. Furthermore, if you're married to someone, and they're sleeping with and spending money on someone else; it is absurd to believe that this has no impact on anything and the A is some other thing, in a vacuum that has no relationship to the marriage. If an A had no relationship to the marriage, it's not an A. Simple. An A is one of those things where the word itself and situation it is describing is in contradistinction to another thing. An A cannot exist without a marriage or other primary relationship being directly tied to and thus affected. I don't think an OW is obligated to answer a BS's questions...you don't have to. But to believe that the A is none of her business is quite a stretch and I would never imagine trying to argue something like that, because IMO, it seems quite obvious that someone's wife trying to know about your relationship to their husband is in no way the same thing as some random telemarketer calling to ask about your relationship. I guess I don't understand the feelings of entitlement within an A frankly. 4
Author MissBee Posted June 12, 2012 Author Posted June 12, 2012 (edited) It's not about control. It's about appropriateness. My R is my business not hers. I would not phone her up to ask her about her M. If I needed to know, say, if she had a STD, or such, I should direct my questions to him. He is the one I have a R with, not her. If she had questions, he was her point of call. Not me. And no, she had no right to know I was making love with the man she was married to. She may have some right to know he was making love to someone else but she had no right to know it was me. I don't share details of my love life with strangers. And no, I did not "insert myself into her marriage." I had a separate, different R with the man she happened to be M to that had nothing at all to do with her M. I'm trying to understand your perspective but I'm having trouble. I suppose for me, the idea of appropriateness seems almost oxymoronic in an A/dday scenario. It is inappropriate, for me, from jump to be with someone who's married, so for affair partners to try to talk about what's appropriate for the BS to inquire about....it just rings hypocritical. One inappropriate action came first....the A. Had that not occurred then no one would be calling to ask anything. In normal relationships, while someone may get a call from a "crazy ex" once in a while, most normal people, strangers as you say, don't call around asking people about their relationships. It stands to reason that the only time this occurs is in triangulated situations..... When we choose certain things in life, we need to know what exactly that choice comes with. Choosing an A puts one in a situation that has some very specific parameters, complications and concerns. You keep talking about "your relationship"....fine. It is yours. But do you not realize that when choosing an A you automatically choose a relationship that, unlike a single relationship, will have at least one other woman who believes your man is hers and who has legal rights to aspects of his life? I think it is wise to at least realize this is you embark upon an A...because thinking that somehow you will have the same privacy and respect given like in a normal relationship, by someone else's wife, will be very disappointing. When you choose a boyfriend with a wife...I am sorry, but it is clear to me, that you are also choosing to relinquish some rules of conduct that people normally follow. A triangulated relationship that is also secret, plain and simple doesn't play by the same rules as a regular, two-person one that is out in the open. Edited June 12, 2012 by MissBee 2
carhill Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 If your MM/MW's spouse finds out about the affair and contacts you to inquire about the nature of your relationship with their spouse, would you admit it? Has this happened to anyone before?Sure. I'm pretty transparent. Closest actual anecdote was sending MW's husband her cards and letters after I became tired of her apparently lying to him about the nature of our relationship. What would/were be your reasons for admitting to it, if you would/did? What were/would be your reasons for denying it if you would/have? Mainly so everything is out on the table and can be worked as self-evident. I did the same thing with my now exW, meaning she not only knew about the OP but actually met and interacted with her independently. She (exW) knew, in advance, the reasons for and reasonable requests regarding this dynamic and made her own choices. Once divorce was economically possible, I got it done. Over. 3
cocorico Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 And do you believe that this would still be your plan five years from now, after you've invested all of your time, love, energy, and effort into the relationship? After you've purchased a house together, began raising kids together, and have lived together for all that time to the point where you can't even hardly recall what life was like when he wasn't in it? We've done a lot of those things if not all. Why would it be different in five years time?
cocorico Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 Except for the fact that everything he invests in his relationship with you is something that SHOULD be invested into the marriage. See...it's not a matter of "one has nothing to do with the other"...the affair relationship comes AT THE EXPENSE of the marital relationship. He's got finite resources. What he invests in you...he stops investing in her. Therefore...your relationship directly impacts and effects the marital relationship...which gives her every reason to NOT view your relationship as something completely seperate. Life isn't a vacuum...what we do impacts others. We can choose to deliberately blind ourselves to what our actions do to others...but that in no way NEGATES those impacts to others. You can choose to view your relationship as seperate...but that doesn't mean that she will, or should, share your viewpoint. He wasn't investing that in the M long before I came along. And neither was she. Nor do I believe love is a zero sum game.
cocorico Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 As for the rules....you are playing by them, since you wouldn't tell the bs the truth and it's a hidden affair and you'd hang up the phone (all typical ow actions when the bs comes calling) so no need to be coy in trying to protest that you are different. I did not claim I was different. I play by no rules but my own and I think that most OWs are the same. I think choosing to abide by the rules of another would be different.
woinlove Posted June 12, 2012 Posted June 12, 2012 It's not about control. It's about appropriateness. My R is my business not hers. I would not phone her up to ask her about her M. If I needed to know, say, if she had a STD, or such, I should direct my questions to him. He is the one I have a R with, not her. If she had questions, he was her point of call. Not me. And no, she had no right to know I was making love with the man she was married to. She may have some right to know he was making love to someone else but she had no right to know it was me. I don't share details of my love life with strangers. And no, I did not "insert myself into her marriage." I had a separate, different R with the man she happened to be M to that had nothing at all to do with her M. I don't understand your statement about not appropriate. It seems you have a view of strangers that is very different from people you know. I assume if you were sleeping with your sister's or friend's husband, you would feel they had a right to know? Maybe you think it would be wrong to treat your sister or friend like that? How about a neighbor's or colleagues's husband? Actually, despite those questions, as an OW I very much distinguished between strangers, slight acquaintances, and people I had more of a connection to. I really didn't care much about strangers at all, although I would have answered (and did) the BW's questions because I didn't like dishonesty and while I didn't care, I recognized my choices were affecting her M. Now I feel more connected to people more generally and like to try to extend even strangers respect and kindness. That makes it less likely I would chose to become an OW again.
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