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Posted
I can see how a lack of self-confidence is hurting me, and it affects how women see me.

 

But you still haven't said anything about how they can see the bitterness. And no, I'm not buying that a woman can just tell with her intuition

 

How old are you?

 

Have you had any dating success? What is your success to rejection ratio?

Bitterness is displayed as openly as a lack of confidence. It's not woman's intuition, it's just the ability to read people. It's quite easy to tell, oftentimes before speaking to them, what someone's feelings hold.

 

I am 25 and I've been rejected more times than I can count I was once a sad a bitter person years ago. Once I let it go and decided that I'm awesome just the way I am, others started to see how awesome I am as well. I figure if someone doesn't like me just the way I am then they aren't the one for me anyways.

 

 

Easier said than done. I have been fighting off bitter and angry thoughts from my last rejection for 8 months. I HAVEN'T SEEN HER OR EVEN REALLY TALKED TO HER FOR 8 MONTHS!

 

I'm telling you. Sometimes when you get rejected by somebody, it's worse than a breakup if you really like that person. I have experienced both. People always minimize rejection ... 'Oh. She just wasn't into you. Get over it.' Most of the time it works like that. But every now and then, one will really hang you up.

And why does someone else's opinion of you ruin your mood so? Did you over romanticize things long before you spoke with her?

 

It is generally our expectations in life that hurt us the most. I remember getting burned pretty bad many years ago as I had quite high expectations and got shot down. It does suck, but it hopefully will teach us to not have too high of an expectation for someone we do not truly have a deep connection with.

 

 

All i need to say:

 

You can only have confidence when other people give it to you.

When others in your age group like you, respect you, admire you, and are attracted to you, you get confidence. When they don’t like you, scorn you, and reject you, you lose confidence. Therefore, the level of confidence you have is controlled by others, NOT by you. You can not just decide to be confident. Confidence is not a choice or decision you can make. You can’t just snap your fingers and, Abracadabra, you’re confident. It doesn’t work that way. It can’t work that way. Social confidence, by it’s very definition, requires support and acceptance from others before it can exist.

 

So when someone tells you they are attracted to confidence, they are lying! (whether consciously or subconsciously) What they’re really attracted to are the traits that make confidence possible. After all, we all know that wealth, good looks, and strong social skills are attractive to others. Are we to believe it’s just a coincidence that these are the very same traits that lead to confidence? Obviously, someone who is successful will have more confidence than someone who is unsuccessful. So when someone says they’re attracted to confidence, what it means is that they’re attracted to success & the factors that make success possible. The confidence itself merely exists as a sign that those other factors (the real attractors) are present.

This is ridiculous. Do you know why they call it self confidence? It's because it comes from yourself.

 

I was horribly bullied in school and treated like garbage. I didn't go on my first date until I was 19 and didn't have a real relationship until I was almost 20. I can tell you that confidence does not come from others and if you're basing how you feel about yourself on another's action you've already lost.

 

My life turned around when I decided I really didn't care what other people think. I'm just going to be happy with me and if that's not good enough for someone else that is just going to be their problem. I have no issue attracting people now as I exude both confidence and happiness.

 

And to make it clear I was both broke and had gotten nowhere in life when I decided I was just going to be myself and be happy with it.

 

The moment you free yourself from trying to fit the mold is the moment you start to become desirable. Only mindless drones crave what the media and society tells them they want. Be happy being yourself and you will find the best match for you.

  • Like 1
Posted
This "bad attitude" started only after K had rejected me. Though I've definitely felt some resentment in the past towards particular women and towards women in general, I've always tried to hold on to hope, and not succumb to despair. But, this last experience has definitely embittered me. I can't say what it will do for the future, but the notion that K rejected me due to any sort of perceived bitterness on my part is false.

 

I don't think she necessarily did. However, my point was more bitterness is not a help, but always a hindrance, if you cling to it.

 

Yes: "not right for me" usually means "not good enough for me", and usually in the looks and height department. Socializing as friends and dating are 2 different things, as I'm sure you know (although we're not even socializing at all anymore: see below).

 

Of course, and you shouldn't socialize anymore with K if you feel that way! I'm not saying socializing and dating are similar. I'm saying that people who socialize with you but don't date you don't typically think, "He's not good enough." They just think they're not into dating you. Two different thoughts.

 

Making one's interest clear from the get-go may also scare her away. This time around, with K, I was trying the "stealth" angle: hanging out on a platonic (or semi-platonic basis) until she gets to know me, and then make a more overt romantic gesture. But, I never got that opportunity, sadly.

 

The "stealth" angle hardly ever works, if ever.

Posted

 

This is ridiculous. Do you know why they call it self confidence? It's because it comes from yourself.

 

I was horribly bullied in school and treated like garbage. I didn't go on my first date until I was 19 and didn't have a real relationship until I was almost 20. I can tell you that confidence does not come from others and if you're basing how you feel about yourself on another's action you've already lost.

 

My life turned around when I decided I really didn't care what other people think. I'm just going to be happy with me and if that's not good enough for someone else that is just going to be their problem. I have no issue attracting people now as I exude both confidence and happiness.

 

And to make it clear I was both broke and had gotten nowhere in life when I decided I was just going to be myself and be happy with it.

 

The moment you free yourself from trying to fit the mold is the moment you start to become desirable. Only mindless drones crave what the media and society tells them they want. Be happy being yourself and you will find the best match for you.

 

It is not ridiculous. You may disagree but it is not a ridiculous point of view.

They call it self-confidence because it is your opinion of yourself and one may desire (or not) to incorporate other people's opinions. If one wants to truly find the best correct opinion of oneself, one needs to consider other people's point of view ("impartial spectator" and all that).

 

You can have alot of self-confidence and still be a rather ordinary person. As the name implies, it is an evaluation of self and if there's one thing human beings are exquisite at fooling themselves and overrating their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses.

 

Also, what worked for you may (and most likely will not) work for others. When i read what you say, one of things that comes to mind is that a prerequisite for this "advice" of yours is that we are all unique and equally beautiful snowflakes. We are not. Unfortunately some people are "better" than others. This is not a D&D game where we all have the same amount of points to distribute.

So either two things: Either you are as "awesome" as you think you are, and therefore this self-assessment is correct (good for you), or you have an over-inflated opinion of yourself and you are living a lie.

Having a very high opinion of yourself and having people around you not sharing that same opinion should (in my opinion) lead to self-examination...

With that said, having confidence, however missguided it may be, is good. This is because confidence stems the appearance of other attractive qualities. It's like a snowball.

Posted
It is not ridiculous. You may disagree but it is not a ridiculous point of view.

They call it self-confidence because it is your opinion of yourself and one may desire (or not) to incorporate other people's opinions. If one wants to truly find the best correct opinion of oneself, one needs to consider other people's point of view ("impartial spectator" and all that).

 

You can have alot of self-confidence and still be a rather ordinary person. As the name implies, it is an evaluation of self and if there's one thing human beings are exquisite at fooling themselves and overrating their strengths and minimizing their weaknesses.

 

Also, what worked for you may (and most likely will not) work for others. When i read what you say, one of things that comes to mind is that a prerequisite for this "advice" of yours is that we are all unique and equally beautiful snowflakes. We are not. Unfortunately some people are "better" than others. This is not a D&D game where we all have the same amount of points to distribute.

So either two things: Either you are as "awesome" as you think you are, and therefore this self-assessment is correct (good for you), or you have an over-inflated opinion of yourself and you are living a lie.

Having a very high opinion of yourself and having people around you not sharing that same opinion should (in my opinion) lead to self-examination...

With that said, having confidence, however missguided it may be, is good. This is because confidence stems the appearance of other attractive qualities. It's like a snowball.

I'm sorry but if it is truly self confidence the opinion of someone else will not play into it at all. It's how you feel about yourself, not how someone else's opinion of you makes you feel.

 

Each is unique and trying to lump yourself into everyone else will leave you with comparisons rather than embracing yourself for being just the way you are. I really don't think anyone should have a low self confidence because everyone is great. They just need to stop worrying about what other people think of them and be themselves.

 

I am awesome, not because of how I stack up to others and not because everyone else thinks I'm great, but because I think I'm awesome. Plenty of people don't like me and that's their choice. Why should it bother me that someone else might not have a fondness for me just the way I am? I'm comfortable and very happy being the way I am and I don't let anyone's opinion change that.

 

The thing is no one is better than me, and I'm not better than anyone else. Just be yourself without trying to impress anyone else and let life happen. How will you find a good partner? Be comfortable with yourself and find someone who is comfortable with being just who they are. If you match, great. If not, keep just being you. Just because it doesn't work doesn't mean that someone is a better person than you... just that someone else is a better match.

Posted (edited)

 

 

I have to disagree here. First, I wasn't completely sure that she wasn't interested. Second, the agony of potential missed opportunities is in many ways even worse than the agony of rejection. Thirdly, if I waited for overt and obvious signs of interest from a woman before I asked her out, I almost certainly will be alone for the rest of my life, as no women ever (or at least very, very rarely) show any interest in me. Fourthly, that idea sounds, quite honestly, just a bit cowardly: don't take a chance on someone because you might get hurt. That doesn't sound like a way I want to live my life.

 

you are making the mistake a lot of women make. refusing to look at what they do wrong and instead thinking that it's some factor beyond their control that keeps them single.

 

the advice given was solid advice, hell, the ONLY advice that can be taken. do NOT get attached to women before they're attached to you, period, end of story.

 

don't play games you are unlikely to win.

 

confidence will bring you more success with women than any other trait, and confidence comes from winning, not losing.

Edited by thatone
Posted (edited)
Yes: "not right for me" usually means "not good enough for me", and usually in the looks and height department. Socializing as friends and dating are 2 different things, as I'm sure you know (although we're not even socializing at all anymore: see below).

 

Also, K and I aren't hanging out, even as friends anymore. We were set to go out for drinks at a martini happy hour at a bar near work one Friday night (about 2 weeks after our first drinks and dinner "date"), and she canceled via email at 4:30, saying that her friend had an "emergency", and she had to help her. Needless to say, I was skeptical of this rather transparent excuse, but I wished her well, and said we'll do it another time. Well, there were no other times: I've asked her out about 10 times since then, and she has put me off with a litany of lame excuses including once (and I'm not joking) that her car was messy and she needed to go home and clean it while it was still light out. After a month or so of that, I got sick of it, and gave up, leading to my current bitter situation.

 

 

Making one's interest clear from the get-go may also scare her away. This time around, with K, I was trying the "stealth" angle: hanging out on a platonic (or semi-platonic basis) until she gets to know me, and then make a more overt romantic gesture. But, I never got that opportunity, sadly.

 

It's scary man, I read your posts and you could be me. :)

 

You are never going to get over the pain and bitterness associated with her if you keep hanging out with her...

 

Also, it's been my experience that physical attraction and attitude determine attraction for most women. Those are things a woman gets a good snapshot of right off the bat.

 

You don't have enough confidence in your looks so you want to play the 'let her get to know me' friends first game. The only problem is ... that game has a high probability of losing/heartbreak. It seems contrary to logic, but it's the worst approach for guys like you and me.

 

Get to know her a bit, establish romantic interest early and then get to know her more intimately.

 

 

And why does someone else's opinion of you ruin your mood so? Did you over romanticize things long before you spoke with her?

 

It is generally our expectations in life that hurt us the most. I remember getting burned pretty bad many years ago as I had quite high expectations and got shot down. It does suck, but it hopefully will teach us to not have too high of an expectation for someone we do not truly have a deep connection with.

 

 

I had a deep set connection with the last woman. I spent virtually every weekday with her for 3 months. I knew her life story and we shared our lives and dreams. Say what you want about false expectations, but I had very little attraction to her from the start. It ballooned after spending so much time together. It's not always about connections. Sometimes a woman just has no physical attraction to you. Suck it...

 

I am still not over her in 8 months and I HAVE HAD ANOTHER GIRLFRIEND IN THAT PERIOD!

 

Sometimes it is just not as simple as ... you're not her type let it go. I have been rejected hundreds upon hundreds of times too including 5 or so times this month already. I don't even remember the names of any of those women.

 

If we could control what we feel emotionally, there would be no need for relationship forums, because we wouldn't care about anything that happens to us in terms of dating. But we can keep trying and keep fighting negative thoughts.;)

Edited by jobaba
Posted
I had a deep set connection with the last woman. I spent virtually every weekday with her for 3 months. I knew her life story and we shared our lives and dreams. Say what you want about false expectations, but I had very little attraction to her from the start. It ballooned after spending so much time together. It's not always about connections. Sometimes a woman just has no physical attraction to you. Suck it...

 

I am still not over her in 8 months and I HAVE HAD ANOTHER GIRLFRIEND IN THAT PERIOD!

 

Sometimes it is just not as simple as ... you're not her type let it go. I have been rejected hundreds upon hundreds of times too including 5 or so times this month already. I don't even remember the names of any of those women.

 

If we could control what we feel emotionally, there would be no need for relationship forums, because we wouldn't care about anything that happens to us in terms of dating. But we can keep trying and keep fighting negative thoughts.;)

Of course it's not easy and I'm not claiming that getting rejected is easy. Let us remember that this all started as a response to being angry with the opposite sex, or a person in general, for not being interested.

 

I understand hurt, I've built up expectations in the past and got shut down. It does suck, but it is our expectations that cause our pain. Even in your situation the more time you spent with her the more your expectations grew.

 

But in my opinion building up your expectations and being rejected isn't much different than being dumped after a short relationship. Emotionally it's about the same, a lot of trying to figure out why it didn't work. Which is why I think it all comes down to acceptance. Just because they didn't want me doesn't mean that I'm not worthy, just that for some reason they didn't feel that I'd be a good fit for them. I'm just thankful they are honest with me and weren't trying to lead me on.

Posted
I didn't go on my first date until I was 19 and didn't have a real relationship until I was almost 20.

And that is why you are unable to understand.

 

I didn't go on my first date until I was 25.

 

I didn't have a real relationship until, wait a minute, that hasn't happened yet.

 

Your bitterness is weak.

Posted
And that is why you are unable to understand.

 

I didn't go on my first date until I was 25.

 

I didn't have a real relationship until, wait a minute, that hasn't happened yet.

 

Your bitterness is weak.

My bitterness is non-existent. It wasn't until I let it go and decided to be happy with myself that I was able to not only attract others, but got the confidence not to settle for less than I wanted. There was a time I would have done just about anything to get a date with anyone. Looking back I know that it would have just made me miserable to date for the sake of dating.

 

Your bitterness is why you fail. You may feel like you don't exude that bitterness but it does come out one way or another.

Posted
I had a deep set connection with the last woman. I spent virtually every weekday with her for 3 months. I knew her life story and we shared our lives and dreams. Say what you want about false expectations, but I had very little attraction to her from the start. It ballooned after spending so much time together. It's not always about connections. Sometimes a woman just has no physical attraction to you. Suck it...

 

I am still not over her in 8 months and I HAVE HAD ANOTHER GIRLFRIEND IN THAT PERIOD!

 

Hi jobaba - I'm really interested in this aspect of your story, because I don't quite understand it. (Really not trying to give you a hard time, just puzzled.) You're saying that there's this person you weren't initially interested in, so you became close friends, and then when you changed your mind about what you wanted but she didn't, you became bitter toward her? But she's not the one who changed anything or did anything differently - you just changed your mind about what you wanted. Why is that in any way about her? It just seems like she's not the right target for bitterness; in fact, she would have good reason to feel bitter toward you, because she lost a friend by simply being a good friend to you. Seems awfully unfair to me. Am I looking at this wrong?

 

This strikes me as a matter of raising expectations unilaterally and then blaming the object of them for not meeting them...

Posted
Of course it's not easy and I'm not claiming that getting rejected is easy. Let us remember that this all started as a response to being angry with the opposite sex, or a person in general, for not being interested.

 

I understand hurt, I've built up expectations in the past and got shut down. It does suck, but it is our expectations that cause our pain. Even in your situation the more time you spent with her the more your expectations grew.

 

But in my opinion building up your expectations and being rejected isn't much different than being dumped after a short relationship. Emotionally it's about the same, a lot of trying to figure out why it didn't work. Which is why I think it all comes down to acceptance. Just because they didn't want me doesn't mean that I'm not worthy, just that for some reason they didn't feel that I'd be a good fit for them. I'm just thankful they are honest with me and weren't trying to lead me on.

 

No. You're right. A lot of it is expectations.

 

Anyway, we're working towards the same goal. I can tell you're a good guy with a good heart.

 

Hi jobaba - I'm really interested in this aspect of your story, because I don't quite understand it. (Really not trying to give you a hard time, just puzzled.) You're saying that there's this person you weren't initially interested in, so you became close friends, and then when you changed your mind about what you wanted but she didn't, you became bitter toward her? But she's not the one who changed anything or did anything differently - you just changed your mind about what you wanted. Why is that in any way about her? It just seems like she's not the right target for bitterness; in fact, she would have good reason to feel bitter toward you, because she lost a friend by simply being a good friend to you. Seems awfully unfair to me. Am I looking at this wrong?

 

Read this... the woman in question is Woman B.

In terms of staying in touch as a friend, here are two scenarios ... real examples from my life.

 

1) Woman A rejected me after spending countless hours one on one with me. I was somewhat angry at the woman and wanted to limit contact. She insisted on keeping in touch as a friend and was very proactive about contacting me to see how I was doing even as I tried to ignore her. She stayed single for at least another year after she rejected me, and I got over her pretty quickly. She respected me as a friend and proactively contacted me and she is currently one of my best friends.

 

2) Woman B rejected me after spending even MORE hours one on one with me than Woman A. Partly because of what happened with Woman A, I never got angry with Woman B. I immediately tried to keep contact with her and suggest we hang out as friends thinking we could become close as friends. She always answered my texts, but was never proactive in contacting me. In short order, Woman B proceeded to ... 1) date a guy she'd barely met, and 2) proactively contact other guys we mutually knew to 'hang out' platonically while completely ignoring me. When I defriended her from facebook, she finally proactively contacted me and suggest we hang out, and then proceeded to flake on me, reschedule, and then flake on me again. Now THAT will make you bitter and angry. ;)

 

If the woman truly respects you as ANYTHING, she will contact you proactively. End of story.

Posted
My bitterness is non-existent. It wasn't until I let it go and decided to be happy with myself that I was able to not only attract others, but got the confidence not to settle for less than I wanted. There was a time I would have done just about anything to get a date with anyone. Looking back I know that it would have just made me miserable to date for the sake of dating.

 

Your bitterness is why you fail. You may feel like you don't exude that bitterness but it does come out one way or another.

You never had anything to be bitter about.

 

That's why I said you can't understand and nothing you say about bitterness is relevant to me.

Posted
You never had anything to be bitter about.

 

That's why I said you can't understand and nothing you say about bitterness is relevant to me.

You're absolutely right, I had nothing to be bitter about. As bitter as I was for a time I had no reason to be bitter because people were just being honest with me. I couldn't expect much more from a stranger or someone I had built up expectations about.

 

The same goes to you though. You have zero to be bitter about. People are being honest and you wouldn't want to be with someone who didn't accept you just the way you were anyways. Even those who choose to be rude regarding a rejection aren't to be mad at. Would you want to be with someone with that kind of attitude anyways? You've done nothing but dodge a bullet.

Posted

How I spot bitterness in a man: a little smirk, pursed lips, seeing his clenched jaw muscles twitching, a narrowing of the eyes, tone of voice, closed body language. Unless you are a master of physical self control, it's little things like that that give you away. Those behaviors coupled with my intuition and it's easy to spot and avoid.

Posted
And that is why you are unable to understand.

 

I didn't go on my first date until I was 25.

 

I didn't have a real relationship until, wait a minute, that hasn't happened yet.

 

Your bitterness is weak.

 

:lmao::lmao::lmao:

 

Take it easy man. He's a good guy and he's trying to help you.

 

I understand where you are. Bitterness is a cycle. There's two types ... 1) the type from being rejected from a particular woman you really liked or dated and 2) being mad at the opposite sex in general because you are in a cold spell/drought.

 

And right now, you are stuck with both. Bad spot. :(

 

What usually happens with me is ... I just forget about it after awhile, sink into doing the things I love and forget about dating.

 

But I can tell that is not going to happen with you. You've been here for years posting the same stuff. So you need to go balls out and at least get a woman to kiss you or something. Get a little victory for yourself. Go out and hit on women man.

Posted
How I spot bitterness in a man: a little smirk, pursed lips, seeing his clenched jaw muscles twitching, a narrowing of the eyes, tone of voice, closed body language.

 

So I take it James Dean or young Brando wouldn't do too well with you? :laugh:

Posted

 

The same goes to you though. You have zero to be bitter about.

So you're saying I should be perfectly OK with the fact that I've never had a girlfriend and that I've never had sex with a girl that I actually like and that I haven't kissed a girl in over seven years?

 

You are aware that I'm a human and a man yes?

Posted
So you're saying I should be perfectly OK with the fact that I've never had a girlfriend and that I've never had sex with a girl that I actually like and that I haven't kissed a girl in over seven years?

 

You are aware that I'm a human and a man yes?

You need to find happiness within. Until you've found that it really doesn't matter what the outside world holds for you.

 

One thing I can say is you seem quite content in your bitterness. If that's the path you choose you're the only one who needs to face the results.

 

I hope that in time you will find a way to let go of the anger, bitterness, and expectations, and instead live patiently and peacefully in the moment.

  • Like 2
Posted
You need to find happiness within. Until you've found that it really doesn't matter what the outside world holds for you.

 

One thing I can say is you seem quite content in your bitterness. If that's the path you choose you're the only one who needs to face the results.

 

I hope that in time you will find a way to let go of the anger, bitterness, and expectations, and instead live patiently and peacefully in the moment.

 

That's so true. Leave the garbage thoughts behind. It's all about your attitude and how you feel about yourself. Confidence is thrown around way too much, self worth is king.

Posted

Yep, just wait patiently and peacefully to die already.

 

Some people just aren't cut out for relationships, just like some people don't get to have a good job. Life guarantees you nothing-no one is entitled to anything. Why be bitter over luck, over something you can't control?

Posted
Yep, just wait patiently and peacefully to die already.

 

Some people just aren't cut out for relationships, just like some people don't get to have a good job. Life guarantees you nothing-no one is entitled to anything. Why be bitter over luck, over something you can't control?

 

Not true, self improvement can be achieved by anyone that values it enough.

  • Like 1
Posted
Not true, self improvement can be achieved by anyone that values it enough.

 

But self-improvement doesn't necessarily lead to a relationship.

 

It's that weird cultural group-think idea that if you're in a relationship, it automatically means you're better in some way. More valuable. But that isn't always true... sometimes really awful, manipulative, abusive people get relationships. Heck, get lifetime-long marriages.

 

Self-improvement is all fine and good for its own sake, but there's no reason to suggest it'll somehow lead to romance. It might, it might not. It's really a matter of luck and circumstance.

 

Like my mom says... maybe it's just in God's plan for someone to be alone. Not our place to question is, just accept the inevitable.

Posted
But self-improvement doesn't necessarily lead to a relationship.

 

It's that weird cultural group-think idea that if you're in a relationship, it automatically means you're better in some way. More valuable. But that isn't always true... sometimes really awful, manipulative, abusive people get relationships. Heck, get lifetime-long marriages.

 

Self-improvement is all fine and good for its own sake, but there's no reason to suggest it'll somehow lead to romance. It might, it might not. It's really a matter of luck and circumstance.

 

Like my mom says... maybe it's just in God's plan for someone to be alone. Not our place to question is, just accept the inevitable.

 

True, I see your point but it appears you missed mine. Nevertheless, accepting the inevitable is a topic unrelated to dating Imo. I'd argue cause and effect, as I at least have some say in my destiny.

Posted

OP, also somewhat of a paradox, perhaps markedly so with your relationship style, but I find marked wisdom in this quote from Dasein:

"OP's problem is not resentment or a "bad attitude" but continuing to care too much"

 

IMO, your relationship style is simply incompatible with those you seek/crush on/ get to know/befriend/etc. You have choices. Change yourself and/or change the people you pursue. What Dasein shared, by inference, does help. Care less. I had to learn that from the harsh realities of being married. You can do it in much less costly ways. Practice it every day.

 

I did find one comment in your OP to ring true with my experience. Those who are proficient in both caring less and rejecting are often confused by a marked emotional reaction simply because it's outside of their experience. That's not uncommon so I hope this doesn't seem so to you. Expect it. You're just part of the background noise now and your departure from the 'usual' by your body language and demeanor can be seen as confusing by such a person. It's good information. Learn from it.

 

Good luck.

Posted
But self-improvement doesn't necessarily lead to a relationship.

 

No, but self improvement DOES lead to getting more of what you want from life. I don't think people are "better" because they are in a R, but I do think people achieve their goals more readily when they focus on self-improvement, and that includes R goals!

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