The Paradox of Bitterness

[Pyro]

Rejections definitely suck and I get why you are angry. Take a break from dating all together until the bitterness goes away.

 

Once you relax some and the anger slowly fades you will see that not all women are the same way.

[bac]

Being accepted is just a skill. If you are rejected, it means you do everything wrong from females' point of view. If you want to be accepted, you have to do the right stuff what women want/like. Women are very open about their preferences on males' appearance and behavior and if you choose to neglect the preferences, it is only your problem.

[Ross MwcFan]

I disagree: I think my anger (perhaps "resentment" would be a better term) towards women is justified. Moreover, I think most men in my position would be hard-pressed to not be at least a little bit bitter. I'm not looking to "live a lie": I'm just looking for love, which most other people seem to be able to find in their lives.

 

You can't expect women to date you or have a relationship with you if they're not attracted to you. This doesn't make them bad, they aren't rejecting you to make you feel bad.

 

I've always been rejected by women offline, and I've never become bitter towards them.

[zengirl]

.... You have a very strange definition of success.

 

You seem a little more positive in the past few days posts. That's success!

[jobaba]

Being accepted is just a skill. If you are rejected, it means you do everything wrong from females' point of view. If you want to be accepted, you have to do the right stuff what women want/like. Women are very open about their preferences on males' appearance and behavior and if you choose to neglect the preferences, it is only your problem.

 

I'd like to address this. A lot of women will flat out tell imply their PHYSICAL preferences by pointing out men they find attractive (real life, not movie stars). If you don't come close to this, either give it a half ass shot or don't even bother.. Hard learned lesson. Most women drool over a certain kind of man, and most of the times, they can get that type. So, they won't go for you.

 

Go for women who imply physical preferences closer to you, or don't imply them at all.

[verhrzn]

You seem a little more positive in the past few days posts. That's success!

 

Oooo, that. Sure, I'm actually feeling mildly cheerful/optimistic in the last few weeks. The combination of 1) a very interesting business seminar on how to manage emotions 2) the most helpful dating-advice book I have ever read ("Why You're Not Married Yet") and 3) oddly, the situation with my ex-friend... has just kinda triggered something in my head.

 

I still have some pretty dark days, but they're lesser than they were. I was thinking of writing up a thread about it, to maybe help some of the other Stuck posters, but no idea where I'd put it.

 

Anyway, I thought he meant success like dating-wise. And, yeah, I wouldn't quite call that whole situation a success, haha.

[fortyninethousand322]

And though I am rationally aware of this fact, my pain and my pride won't let me just emotionally accept that I'll never have K (no matter how badly I may want her), and to just move on and heal the rift.

 

Having been here, I think K personifies general rejection for you. It's not about K in particular, rather she's a convenient placeholder for your general bitterness about being rejected all the time.

 

The only real way to get over it is to understand who you are and what your limitations are. I used to be really really bitter and negative. But once I understood that I had limits and I'm not perfect and I have to work on things I stopped getting so upset.

[Necromancer]

How's the dating life? All goes well I hope. I'd assume your bitterness and lack of self confidence, which leads to more bitterness, has the ladies knocking each other over to be with you.

 

 

Everyone gets rejected though. When I get rejected I just wish them well and let it go. Someone else not liking me surely isn't going to ruin my day, nor make me group people together. Each person is an individual and deserves to be treated as such.

 

All i need to say:

 

You can only have confidence when other people give it to you.

When others in your age group like you, respect you, admire you, and are attracted to you, you get confidence. When they don’t like you, scorn you, and reject you, you lose confidence. Therefore, the level of confidence you have is controlled by others, NOT by you. You can not just decide to be confident. Confidence is not a choice or decision you can make. You can’t just snap your fingers and, Abracadabra, you’re confident. It doesn’t work that way. It can’t work that way. Social confidence, by it’s very definition, requires support and acceptance from others before it can exist.

 

 

 

So when someone tells you they are attracted to confidence, they are lying! (whether consciously or subconsciously) What they’re really attracted to are the traits that make confidence possible. After all, we all know that wealth, good looks, and strong social skills are attractive to others. Are we to believe it’s just a coincidence that these are the very same traits that lead to confidence? Obviously, someone who is successful will have more confidence than someone who is unsuccessful. So when someone says they’re attracted to confidence, what it means is that they’re attracted to success & the factors that make success possible. The confidence itself merely exists as a sign that those other factors (the real attractors) are present.

[Badsingularity]

Yawn.

 

Good try though.

 

 

Wow.

 

He answered the question that YOU ASKED and this is how you respond?

 

Very telling.

[Ross MwcFan]

Wow.

 

He answered the question that YOU ASKED and this is how you respond?

 

Very telling.

 

Definatley.

[Badsingularity]

 

But you still haven't said anything about how they can see the bitterness. And no, I'm not buying that a woman can just tell with her intuition

 

A woman CAN just tell. She can see it within a few seconds to minutes. It's how she sniffs out the strong from the weak. How do I know this? because.....I can do the same.

 

I can tell if a person is bitter, angry, weak, insecure, confident just by looking at them and I can usaully tell within a few seconds to a minute.

 

If I can, then so can women.

 

I remember when I was like you. I couldn't see it, but after years of watching, observing, LISTENING, and having hundreds of social interactions with women while doing all of that, I can see it.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Badsingularity

[Nomad]

Rejection is a painful thing, whether it's in the dating world, amongst family, your peers, the work place, love.

 

There are many forms of feeling rejected and they can all be equally as painful, you look at these women and group them up because you feel like they have something against, telling you that you aren't good enough, making it personal. Well just think of it from their end...

Well, they are (implicitly) saying that I'm not good enough. And, while not all rejections are of a personal nature, many of them are.

 

Imagine some woman walks up to you, you're completely uninterested but don't have the heart to outright reject them, you give them a chance try to have a heart but find yourself not feeling the interest...so the best thing you is let them go so they can move and and find someone who feels mutually interested romantically. How many of these women do you think or cold, selfish woman who's main goal in life is to hurt men and reject them in cold blood?

Your syntax is a bit garbled here...I'm not sure I take your question.

 

These women didn't sit together at a board meeting and deem you unworthy, they've made the decisions on their own...so how do you associate these women? just because they did something in common?

This is an excellent point, and it's something I've given a fair bit of thought to myself. There is certainly no conspiracy among women to keep me single. And it's not as if I've acquired a negative reputation among women, turning them off to the idea of dating me. Women who have never met each other, in different times, different cities, etc all reject me, simply due to physical attributes which I am powerless to change. This tells me 2 things (none of which are good for me: 1) what constitutes desirable physical attributes is not completely subjective from person to person, despite some claims to the contrary (including some on LS), and 2) I'm basically f*cked, because it's not as if I can escape my predicament merely by moving somewhere else. No matter when I go, there I am.

 

So every car that drives down the freeway is a maniac because they all have driving down the freeway in common?

No.

 

This has nothing to do with these women, this has everything to do with how you feel and look at yourself.

Not so. It in large part is due to how women look at me.

 

You let it turn into a personal gash and tearing down of who you are....when none of these women even know you very well or at least everything that makes who you are as a person, they are purely judging from a romantic interest and If they don't have the romantic interest what would you have them do? force themselves to feel it? you ever tried feeling a certain way about something because you wanted to make yourself? ironic isn't it? doesn't necessarily work that way.

Another good point. Women can't help but be unattracted to me. Likewise, I can't help but feel bitter about it, whether or not said bitterness is rationally warranted.

 

(Your post was rather lengthy...I appreciate the detail, but I think my above replies will do for now.)

[Nomad]

That resentment is going to keep you from finding a good match. Holding onto that bitterness will do nothing but push women who may have been interested away from you.

Perhaps, though bitterness can't account for my past failures with women.

[Nomad]

Bitter? Yes, but not at others. I put my failures squarely where they belong, on myself.

I blame myself for some of my failures, but I believe women reject me largely on the basis of my physical attributes which are not in my power to change. If they're not in my power to change, then I can't be blamed for women rejecting me on that basis. Hence, most rejections are not my "fault."

[Nomad]

The reason why 'this time' is different with this woman K is because you actually like her. You have feelings for her. You've gotten to know her over a long period of time. That kind of bitterness and resentment sticks as opposed to a woman you've known for a week. It is also much stronger and deeper than the 'I hate all women' type.

You are spot on. Asking out a women on a whim is a much different matter than getting to know someone over the course of 6+ months, growing to like them more and more, imagining us together, investing hope in her, etc.

 

In terms of just letting it go, holding no hard feelings, and continuing to hang with K, well the people who are saying that have never been there. It is very difficult to hang around with somebody that you have feelings for. K will start dating other men. You can bank on that. And I would not be around to witness that if I were you. You're really going to hate her and want to kill yourself.

Again, spot on. The only thing worse than being rejected by someone you like is seeing that someone go on to date another guy. In fact, a major reason that I'm angry is in the knowledge that at some point in the future (if not the present: I don't know what she's been up to in the last few months) she'll be dating, and yes, f*cking some other guy. Just once, I'd like to be that "other guy."

 

There's good news though. Bitterness and hurt fade with time. In time you'll forget K. It may takes months to maybe even a couple of years. Everyone's different. But you will. Limit contact.

Yes, you are right. The pain has already faded a bit, as I'm no longer beset by intermittent crying jags and thoughts of taking my own life.

 

And even though you can't control where your mind and emotions go, you can control the magnitude of the rejections you are exposed to. Let's face it. Based on your OP, you will get rejected again.

What's "OP"?

 

DON'T MAKE THE MISTAKE OF BECOMING EMOTIONALLY ATTACHED TO A WOMAN BEFORE YOU KNOW SHE'S INTERESTED.

 

Hit on a woman early to see if she has any interest off the bat. If she is not, then move on. If you find yourself falling for a woman over a long period of time, like what just happened, LET IT GO. Don't ask her out. Three years ago, I developed a major crush on a woman I went to school with and got to know. But I decided to let it go and not ask her out. Do you know how much pain, ill will, and bitterness I have when I think of her? None, zero, zilch. Do you know how long it took me to get over the last woman who rejected me whom I had feelings for? 8 months and still counting. People always say pick rejection over regret. Those people aren't in our shoes.

I have to disagree here. First, I wasn't completely sure that she wasn't interested. Second, the agony of potential missed opportunities is in many ways even worse than the agony of rejection. Thirdly, if I waited for overt and obvious signs of interest from a woman before I asked her out, I almost certainly will be alone for the rest of my life, as no women ever (or at least very, very rarely) show any interest in me. Fourthly, that idea sounds, quite honestly, just a bit cowardly: don't take a chance on someone because you might get hurt. That doesn't sound like a way I want to live my life.

[Nomad]

Plenty of people can see bitterness and plenty of people cannot. Bitterness, negativity, pessimism, anger, and resentment are just life-killers. Not only can people see them but the people who hold those feelings continually self-sabotage. They keep themselves from being happy and successful. If someone has a good, positive, happy attitude towards life, it is infectious! The opposite is repellent, and most people will avoid negativity.

 

At any rate, it's no good getting attached to someone you've not even went out on a date with yet! Crushes are bad news. Always.

 

Anger and bitterness are the same thing, really, and here's what I'll say about anger:

Sorry, I should have specified: she and I actually did hang out 3 times (2x for classical music concerts, which we both enjoy), and once for dinner and drinks to celebrate her graduation from a certificate program. I made the overtures to hang out all 3 times, and they were never explicitly referred to by any one of us as "dates".

[Nomad]

You can't expect women to date you or have a relationship with you if they're not attracted to you. This doesn't make them bad, they aren't rejecting you to make you feel bad.

I know it doesn't make them bad. But I can't help but feel angry and frustrated.

 

I've always been rejected by women offline, and I've never become bitter towards them.

Well, I've been rejected online and offline. I'm in my early 30s, and 1) have never really had a serious gf, and 2) have had very limited sexual opportunities that didn't involve paying for it. Can you say the same?

 

I should also say that this is the first time that my bitterness has really gotten the best of me. K is perhaps the first woman that I've ever been truly angry at because of a (mostly polite) rejection. Prior to meeting K, I'd kept telling myself to just hang in there, not lose hope, and "it" will happen for me. But, my resolve has wavered, my patience has run out, and I've started to succumb to despair. I've been so lonely for so long, that it literally feels like psychological torture. She was the chance that I've been waiting for, and the chance just passed me by, leaving me, as ever, alone and longing for love.

Edited June 11, 2012 by Nomad

[El Brujo]

I'm not bitter.

 

By focusing on accomplishing the things I want to do with my life, I've turned things around 180 degrees... give someone else reason to be bitter!

 

I guess I don't really care if women are bitter toward me... I'm ready to make nice any time they are.

[jobaba]

 

 

What's "OP"?

 

 

I have to disagree here. First, I wasn't completely sure that she wasn't interested. Second, the agony of potential missed opportunities is in many ways even worse than the agony of rejection. Thirdly, if I waited for overt and obvious signs of interest from a woman before I asked her out, I almost certainly will be alone for the rest of my life, as no women ever (or at least very, very rarely) show any interest in me. Fourthly, that idea sounds, quite honestly, just a bit cowardly: don't take a chance on someone because you might get hurt. That doesn't sound like a way I want to live my life.

 

Original post.

 

It does seem a bit cowardly. I, like you, am still dealing with the pain from the last woman who rejected me. So, I might change my mind in the future when I'm more able to put things in perspective. I'll probably pull the trigger again if I'm ever in that spot. But for now, I'm going to anything to avoid going through that again.

 

In terms of regret for me personally, there haven't too many big ones because I've acted on mostly ever woman I've known well and developed feelings for ... and it was rejection every time.

 

But anyway, it's good not to put yourself in that situation. Hit on women early and often. You'll be doing two things ... 1) finding out if they are attracted to you early and 2) going through quantity.

 

My life story is just like yours, never clear interest from women. You have to go through numbers to get some results. It's just how it is. Good luck.

[bac]

I'd like to address this. A lot of women will flat out tell imply their PHYSICAL preferences by pointing out men they find attractive (real life, not movie stars). If you don't come close to this, either give it a half ass shot or don't even bother.. Hard learned lesson. Most women drool over a certain kind of man, and most of the times, they can get that type. So, they won't go for you.

 

Go for women who imply physical preferences closer to you, or don't imply them at all.

 

Also, you can have some mercy for the women you try to date and be more flexible about your behavior, attitudes and appearance. The physical preference thing is as simple as it takes: being fit, clean (including your hair), smell normal, a good hair cut and clean, new clothes. As for attitudes and behaviors, do you even care for women's expectations about your behavior ?

So, if you have no idea what men's behaviors are accepted by women, how can you do the right thing to be accepted? You need to learn what women expect from you in terms of behavior. And, it does not matter if you think that the behaviors are stupied BS because there is no other way to win and prove yourself as a man. Also, do not expect that you can get the information of what women want from males.

[dasein]

A woman CAN just tell. She can see it within a few seconds to minutes. It's how she sniffs out the strong from the weak.

 

It's time to put the lie to the above, as repeated here and elsewhere in too many threads. The men I've known in life who get sexually rejected the least have universally lousy attitudes about women and dating, very bad attitudes. OP's problem is not resentment or a "bad attitude" but continuing to care too much. If women or people can indeed sense negative attitudes, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether she will accept a particular man's advances. And that's what we are talking about after all, sexual rejection, not creating a good relationship, not living happily ever after, just plain old sexual rejection. Women do in fact respond to a healthy level of disdain or indifference in men, to suggest they don't invalidates all the hundreds and thousands of "bad boy" threads and posts here. The inevitable follow up will be that "well of course immature, insecure women are gotten that way," which is also baloney, as a guy who can't get any play doesn't care about finding Ms. Right, just Ms. DTF.

 

OP you are going through a necessary skin-toughening process that almost all men go through. Realizing this, that you aren't alone, may be helpful and liberating. At the other end of this tunnel is caring less until you have been given good reason to care via female responsiveness to you. Once out of that tunnel, you won't care enough to be bitter, and will ironically become much more attractive to women generally as a result. People value that which requires effort to get, and devalue that which they get too easily. Part of social value is not caring too much.

 

Most of us have been exactly where you are and it's just another step on the path to mastery. Sublimate the negative energy and focus it reflectively towards your benefit. Kierkegaard said there were three progressive levels of despair, despair at things and situations, wanting to be someone other than whom you are, and finally defiance, which you are beginning to exhibit in your OP. When you say, "I feel resentment towards women generally and feel that resentment is justified," you are exhibiting defiance. Keep moving into that and past it and you will reach the state of "willing to be resolutely in the face of the powers that be," and that state will benefit you greatly in sex seeking behavior. Good luck.

[zengirl]

All i need to say:

 

You can only have confidence when other people give it to you.

 

Absolutely untrue. If you wait for others to give you confidence, you'll never find it.

 

Well, they are (implicitly) saying that I'm not good enough. And, while not all rejections are of a personal nature, many of them are.

 

Why is it "not good enough"? I don't think rejections are generally that, so much as "Not right for me" or "Not what I'm looking for" -- especially with someone who will socialize with you otherwise.

 

Sorry, I should have specified: she and I actually did hang out 3 times (2x for classical music concerts, which we both enjoy), and once for dinner and drinks to celebrate her graduation from a certificate program. I made the overtures to hang out all 3 times, and they were never explicitly referred to by any one of us as "dates".

 

Next time, make your romantic interest clear from the get-go so you won't get attached before you assess her interest. Seriously -- crushes are always bad!

[zengirl]

It's time to put the lie to the above, as repeated here and elsewhere in too many threads. The men I've known in life who get sexually rejected the least have universally lousy attitudes about women and dating, very bad attitudes. OP's problem is not resentment or a "bad attitude" but continuing to care too much. If women or people can indeed sense negative attitudes, it has absolutely nothing to do with whether she will accept a particular man's advances. And that's what we are talking about after all, sexual rejection, not creating a good relationship, not living happily ever after, just plain old sexual rejection. Women do in fact respond to a healthy level of disdain or indifference in men, to suggest they don't invalidates all the hundreds and thousands of "bad boy" threads and posts here. The inevitable follow up will be that "well of course immature, insecure women are gotten that way," which is also baloney, as a guy who can't get any play doesn't care about finding Ms. Right, just Ms. DTF.

 

Those are different types of women, who you'll never attract if you're not the right status level or physical type. None of the women I know sleep with bad boys, etc, because they ARE only looking for serious Rs and poor attitudes towards women would get you ejected immediately.

 

You're right that people can have crap attitudes and still have success sexually, but they have to have some kind of high value attributes to the shallow crowd and a high tolerance for flakes and so forth. It's telling that posters like you have such a bad attitude towards women and say so many of the women you know are flaky and entitled --- people who have bad attitudes attract others who have bad attitudes. Sounds like a set up for more bitterness to me.

 

At any rate, I don't think OP's sole issue is a bad attitude -- one generally doesn't start out with a bad attitude -- but I cannot see how negativity helps anyone, unless they want to attract further negativity. Perhaps you could twist it into dysfunction to attract dysfunction, if that's your thing. Sounds sad to me.

[Nomad]

Why is it "not good enough"? I don't think rejections are generally that, so much as "Not right for me" or "Not what I'm looking for" -- especially with someone who will socialize with you otherwise.

Yes: "not right for me" usually means "not good enough for me", and usually in the looks and height department. Socializing as friends and dating are 2 different things, as I'm sure you know (although we're not even socializing at all anymore: see below).

 

Also, K and I aren't hanging out, even as friends anymore. We were set to go out for drinks at a martini happy hour at a bar near work one Friday night (about 2 weeks after our first drinks and dinner "date"), and she canceled via email at 4:30, saying that her friend had an "emergency", and she had to help her. Needless to say, I was skeptical of this rather transparent excuse, but I wished her well, and said we'll do it another time. Well, there were no other times: I've asked her out about 10 times since then, and she has put me off with a litany of lame excuses including once (and I'm not joking) that her car was messy and she needed to go home and clean it while it was still light out. After a month or so of that, I got sick of it, and gave up, leading to my current bitter situation.

 

Next time, make your romantic interest clear from the get-go so you won't get attached before you assess her interest. Seriously -- crushes are always bad!

Making one's interest clear from the get-go may also scare her away. This time around, with K, I was trying the "stealth" angle: hanging out on a platonic (or semi-platonic basis) until she gets to know me, and then make a more overt romantic gesture. But, I never got that opportunity, sadly.

[Nomad]

At any rate, I don't think OP's sole issue is a bad attitude -- one generally doesn't start out with a bad attitude -- but I cannot see how negativity helps anyone, unless they want to attract further negativity. Perhaps you could twist it into dysfunction to attract dysfunction, if that's your thing. Sounds sad to me.

This "bad attitude" started only after K had rejected me. Though I've definitely felt some resentment in the past towards particular women and towards women in general, I've always tried to hold on to hope, and not succumb to despair. But, this last experience has definitely embittered me. I can't say what it will do for the future, but the notion that K rejected me due to any sort of perceived bitterness on my part is false. Whatever the reason she rejected me (probably due to looks and height, as with most other women - I'm only 5'5" and by no means great-looking in the face) had nothing to do with my attitude towards women, I assure you.

Edited June 12, 2012 by Nomad