Why Do People think Lowly Of Hookers?

[A O]

^ ^ ^

It all boils down to choice. You’ve created a scenario built around choice of which there will be consequences – judgements by yourself (and others) depending on the choices some here make. Add to that, the fact that we’re discussing an issue where choice (or the lack thereof) is a major discussion point in of itself.

 

Be it prostitutes, their clients, posters or people in general – the choices we make will have consequences.

[Robert Z]

Of course men have historically been disadvantaged in many ways. I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that this is not the case. But that is exactly why a lot of advanced societies now have legislation in place to protect the health and safety of workers, so that they won't have to deal with work environments that are dangerous or fall down from skyscrapers. If you don't currently have those kind of health and safety regulations in the US, or a minimum wage that people can live off without having to put in 100 hours a week, that's a result of political priorities, and it's quite irrelevant to a debate of whether prostitution should be legalised or not.

 

It is completely relevant to the discussion. You have changed the context. I wasn't speaking to legalization, I was speaking to the so-called horrors of a women giving of herself for money. Some jobs are dangerous and that will never change, but people accept those risks every day in order to make a living. By comparison, having sex is pretty benign.

 

I'm sorry that you wife didn't show you any tenderness. Personally, I wouldn't stay in a marriage without tenderness or sex. If you made that choice, that's on you.

 

I was lied to and deceived for years. It wasn't a simple choice as you suggest. She played on my sympathy and loyalty. But eventually it became clear that she is just selfish. That was the beginning of the end. But let's say I never fall in love again. What am I supposed to do, lie for sex? Pretend I want another wife when I don't. Most women want a relationship, not a screw buddy. So where do I go?

 

Your single example is just that, one example. It's extremely easy to counter that example with one of a woman who has been forced into prostitution, thinking that she was going to another country to work in a restaurant or as a maid. Prostitutes are a very diverse and composite group, and you have to treat them as such if you're discussing at the level of changing national laws.

 

The point was to show that there are two sides to this, just as there are two sides to any issue. Likewise, we have factories where people work reasonably good jobs every day to make a living. There are also children forced into slave labor in some foreign factories. This doesn't make factories evil by default. What is evil is the abuse of children. In a similar fashion, the relationship between a prostitute and her client can be quite healthy as friendships go. It isn't abusive by default.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

I believe the term is self-abuse.

 

I'm sure the sky wouldn't have fallen in if you'd said "sweetheart, I'm sorry that you're in a stressed place and I don't mind giving you a bit of emotional support....but I'm not about to pay $1,000 for the privilege of playing counsellor/masseur to you. Your choice. You can stay and talk...and accept that you're not making any cash tonight, or you can leave and give me a call when you're fit to get back to work.

 

What are you talking about? I have no idea! I enjoy our time together immeasureably. And I like to help her if I can like I would any friend.

 

If you're going to take the line that prostitution is a contractual service like any other, then you should probably be consistent and require that service providers fulfil the terms of their contract before you pay them. That's not dehumanising people, it's just requesting that they fulfil their part of a bargain that they've made freely. If you feel uncomfortable doing it, then that suggests that deep down you might have more of an issue with prostitution than you want to admit.

 

Look, I'm in business and am personal friends with most of my customers. A business arrangement doesn't preclude friendship. In fact, much of business in my world is based on trust that has been earned. You are trying to make a negative out of a positive. She can be my paid lover and my friend. There is no contradiction. In fact, that is the beauty of it. It isn't a cold, unfeeling, mechanical thing. We share genuine intimacy. We enjoy each other. We gladly give each other pleasure. So while many people may be happy with a quicky with someone they don't know, I like what we have. She's happy and I'm happy. So try to make it ugly if you wish, but it isn't.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

To all the men speaking of prostitution as just any other job:

 

If your daughter (whether real or hypothetical), decided that she wanted to become a prostitute, would you support her?

 

Finally a valid point! No, I probably wouldn't wany my daughter doing this. But I wouldn't want my daughter to be a nun either. If my daughter fell into a situation like I'm in and it made her happy, then I wouldn't judge her for it. Because it is generally illegal it can be a very dangerous profession. So I would worry about that a lot! But the thing that you need to understand is that these women want to do this. They see it as a business opportunity. And I really have to admire their spunk! They are quite smart about all of this. They understand men and they understand business. In many ways they [most that I've known] are very impressive women. They know what they want and are highly focused on success. No doubt some will go on to be very successful in other business ventures, later in life.

 

This is a good time to mention that I don't mean to persuade young women to try this. I don't know exactly how you get into the safe side of this. I am in with a referral-only group of women who network and watch each other's backs. You only get in when someone they trust recommends you as a respectable person. But generally speaking I can see no reason by it couldn't as safe as any blind date.

 

If you met a woman and started building a serious relationship with her, and she told you that she had regularly used prostitutes in the past, would that alter how you felt about her?

 

If you met a woman and started building a serious relationship with her, and she told you that she had previously worked several years as a prostitute, or was currently working as a prostitute, would that alter how you felt about the relationship? Would your reaction be different if she had been a carpenter rather than a prostitute?

 

Funny you should ask! I once had a serious relationship with a girl who finally admitted that she had once worked as a prostitute for a time. I was very young and had quite a difficult time adjusting to the idea. I knew nothing about prostitution except what I'd seen on TV. But I loved her so in the end it didn't matter. She was still the women I knew and loved. I wish I knew then what I know now. It would have made it far easier to accept her history. [i even remember her specifying that she had been a call girl, not a streetwalker, but I didn't know the difference back then]

 

Of course I wouldn't want a wife or significant other doing this. I expect manogomy in a serious relationship. But the same is true if she was sleeping with someone else for free! In a way, that would worse than doing it for money.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Robert Z

[Els]

Forcing men to go without sex devalues men - actually, they are devalued by women who think jacking off is good enough.

 

 

I'm all for legalization and respect of prostitutes, but this is, I'm sorry, the worst reason I've ever seen for it. 'Forcing men to go without sex devalues men'? Really? Come on, that's just stupid. That's like saying 'forcing women to go without emotional intimacy devalues women'. Trying to play the sexism card with anything and everything DOES devalue the worth of your opinion, though.

 

There should absolutely be regulations to protect the interests of construction workers and manual laborers, just as how there should be regulations to protect the safety of legal prostitutes. And there are.

[Els]

Sure, in the same way that Chevy dealers make sure to never sell Corvettes to people who get speeding tickets.

 

Or fast food employees must weigh customers before serving them that 2000 calorie combo meal, or theme park employees must make customers take a cardio test before allowing them on that rollercoaster, or liquor store employees must check if a customer has a history of alcoholism before serving them liquor, too, otherwise they are all enablers of harm and destruction and are disgusting people?

[Robert Z]

... that is the beauty of it. It isn't a cold, unfeeling, mechanical thing. We share genuine intimacy. We enjoy each other. We gladly give each other pleasure. So while many people may be happy with a quicky with someone they don't know, I like what we have. She's happy and I'm happy. So try to make it ugly if you wish, but it isn't.

 

I was reminded of one night that I was simply unable to perform. I was exhausted and should have cancelled the evening, but that was just more than I could consider. Cancel an evening with my beautiful young friend? I would have to be dying!!!

 

She tried so hard... it was so cute. I kept telling her that it's just me and not to worry but she wouldn't give up.

Edited June 24, 2012 by Robert Z

[Robert Z]

Also, I don't get $500 hotel rooms for me. I normally stay at places like the Marriot. But I go out of my way to make the evening very special for my dear friends.

[Robert Z]

I'm all for legalization and respect of prostitutes, but this is, I'm sorry, the worst reason I've ever seen for it. 'Forcing men to go without sex devalues men'? Really? Come on, that's just stupid. That's like saying 'forcing women to go without emotional intimacy devalues women'. Trying to play the sexism card with anything and everything DOES devalue the worth of your opinion, though.

 

You are missing the point. Are you a woman?

 

When women assume that mastubation is a substitute for intimacy, they are devaluing men. They are reducing genuine human needs to something less than that. It wasn't a direct argument for legalization, it was a statement of fact. It does demonstrate that any man can have unmet needs, not just slime bags. Women often refuse to recognize why prostitution is the oldest profession. There is a very good reason for it.

 

The sexism thing referred to the so-called horrors of a woman "selling her body". Seriously, at least try to understand the context. You are completely changing the context of my words.

[Els]

You are missing the point. Are you a woman?

 

When women assume that mastubation is a substitute for intimacy, they are devaluing men. They are reducing genuine human needs to something less than that. It wasn't a direct argument for legalization, it was a statement of fact. It does demonstrate that any man can have unmet needs, not just slime bags. Women often refuse to recognize why prostitution is the oldest profession. There is a very good reason for it.

 

You missed the point that nobody is 'entitled' to sex and not having anyone to do it with is not the same as 'forcing someone to go without sex'. Even prostitutes have, or should have, the freedom to choose whether or not they want to service a particular man, at the risk of losing a customer. No one is being 'devalued' just because he can't get sex anytime he wants it. Stop throwing the term around lightly, you're just devaluing devaluation.

[Seductive]

Because society, patriarchal men (yes, men can slut-shame worse than women) and religion have constructed these views about sex and women that have sex.

 

Prostitutes aren't bad people. I would be more concerned about child molesters, murderers, rapists and abusive parenting than I would be concerned about a woman in the sex industry.

 

Yes, prostitution may not be emotionally healthy. I've met a lot that have horrific trauma histories. But, I would rather give empathy and compassion to those in pain, instead of judging them and dehumanizing them.

[Robert Z]

You missed the point that nobody is 'entitled' to sex and not having anyone to do it with is not the same as 'forcing someone to go without sex'.

 

I disagree. There is a bit of a mixed message here because I was denied sex by my wife. But as a loyal married man who loved his wife, I was entitled to sex. If you don't think so, then we fundamentally disagree. I was just as much entitled to sex as she was for me to address her needs, which I tried very hard to do. It is part of the deal when you agree to spend your lives together. Fact is I should have dumped her years ago but I was blinded by religious nonsense and ancient bull notions of "being a man". Turns out us men have needs just like women; different, but just as real. Slowly I began to realize that just as do many women their mates, she made me feel like there was something wrong with me having needs. I can tell you with confidence that many women assume the position that I can just go masturbate, that's good enough. It isn't good enough and I'm sick of being reduced to the level of a dog because I'm a man. I see it with friends and their wives, I see in comedy routines, I see it on TV shows and movies, again and again the notion that men are just dogs is reinforced. But god forbid that a man should stray from his selfish wife. That is just unacceptable!

 

Even prostitutes have, or should have, the freedom to choose whether or not they want to service a particular man, at the risk of losing a customer. No one is being 'devalued' just because he can't get sex anytime he wants it. Stop throwing the term around lightly, you're just devaluing devaluation.

 

No doubt that most prostitutes do have a choice. But a wife agrees to love her husband. That means that she has taken an oath to meet his needs. It is a lie to say that she doesn't have a responsibility here. Husbands and wives have a responsibility to serve each others needs. For men, whether it be regular sex or something else [some women have legitimate problems that can make sex tough] there is a responsibility here for the wife to keep him happy. But the fact is that men and women have been brainwashed to think this is a one-way street - husbands have responsibilities to be understanding, supportive, caring, loving, and on and on and on, but their wives don't. Many women draw the line wherever the hell they feel like it. And so much for hubby.

 

I have made it clear that when I say devaluing, I am talking about the common notion that men can just go jack off and be happy. It simply isn't true... at least not for all men. It is part of being human and we have every right to have this recognized as such. There is nothing wrong with it. It is how we work. We have a right to find happiness just like women do. And I am eternally grateful to the women who not only understand this, but enjoy serving the needs of good men who just need some companionship and intimacy.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Robert Z

[Els]

I don't understand why you keep bringing your wife into this. You were and are a free man. Nobody is 'devaluing' you by not giving you sex, no. You simply had a sexually-incompatible wife whom you should have divorced if it was causing you that much grief. I don't see why you had to bring sexism and such into it. And I especially don't see the connection between the poor relationship you had with your wife and the discussion that we were having about prostitution. Even if prostitution is legal you are not necessarily guaranteed sex with one. It's naive to think that all prostitutes are in their line of work because they 'enjoy serving the needs of good men because men have the right to have their sexual needs fulfilled'. Nobody has the right to sex and prostitutes aren't exactly Mother Theresa. They run a business. They sell to those who have the money to buy. If you had not the money, you would be likely to be refused service. I'm not disparaging prostitution, but you seem to be viewing it in a very rose-tinted light. Businesswomen don't run charities.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Elswyth

[Robert Z]

I don't understand why you keep bringing your wife into this. You were and are a free man. Nobody is 'devaluing' you by not giving you sex, no.

 

Do you even bother to read the posts? I have said very clearly that by devaluing I am referring to the general notion that men can just masturbate and that's good enough.

 

Why are your afraid to recognize this? Why do you keep evading the point? Either you are incapable of understanding simple English or your are trying avoid something you don't want to accept.

 

You simply had a sexually-incompatible wife whom you should have divorced if it was causing you that much grief.

 

Ah, so now you are telling me what the problem was. Please tell me more. How were we incompatible? Why didn't I leave sooner? What was the core of the problem? Clearly you have it all figured out based on a few posts. So tell me all about it. Please tell me how it was all my fault. Tell me how simple it all was.

 

I don't see why you had to bring sexism and such into it.

 

That's because you are refusing to acknowledge the context in order to obfuscate. This is waste of my time. If you ever come to terms with your own biases, try again. It is clear to me that you don't want to understand my points.

Edited June 25, 2012 by Robert Z

[Mme. Chaucer]

I had to make a quick trip to Nevada yesterday. So last night I spent an evening with one of my special friends. Here is how her evening went. She arrived at my $500 hotel room early in the evening. We sat and talked for a bit and then headed into the bedroom. After some caressing and kissing, she gave me pleasure for a time. Then I spent the next hour and a half or so massaging her and listening to her problems. Being that I am much older than her, I am often able to offer sound advice. In this case, she stresses far too much over personal matters. So I tried to offer some perspective and coping techniques [For a long time I too suffered with similar stress problems and have learned to manage it]. All along, I massaged her incredibly tense body until she melted into the bed and could barely speak. I finished the massage by bringing her to orgasm. Then a bit more action for me, and we rested. After a time, she took her $1000 and went home. As always, she made a point to kiss me goodbye... and not on the cheek, a good one!

 

There is your abuse.

 

Hm. Why does this romantic and erotic tale take place in Nevada? Why don't you have your beautiful young friends visit you in your home, wherever you happen to live, or in any hotel in any city in America? It's no more legal in Nevada than it is anywhere else.

[Mme. Chaucer]

Forcing men to go without sex devalues men -

 

Oh, really? Does forcing women to go without gifts of diamonds and mink garments (specifically purchased for them by men) devalue women?

 

If you really believe that having sex with a live human body is a need for survival that men have and are entitled to, I'm afraid you are living in a delusional place.

 

But if it's true, can it be fulfilled by sticking it into any hole? Maybe one on the body of a man rather than a woman? Or a sheep?

[Eclypse]

I live in a country (Australia) where prostitution is legal and regulated. Note however, that street walking is illegal still (as it should be). My arguments for supporting the legalization of prostitution are two-fold, and I will outline them in the next paragraph.

 

Firstly - Prostitution will occur regardless of if we legalise it or not. That is just a simple fact of life. However by legalizing and regulating it we can provide protection and rights to the people who choose to engage in this sort of employment. By allowing prostitutes to choose their clients, rather than being terrified of being beaten up by their pimp and doing anything they ask, their safety will be improved. That to me is the most important aspect. No matter how much some people like to dehumanize them, prostitutes are just people like us, trying to earn a living. For whatever reason, they are in this job. They don't deserve to be beaten or raped for this. They are not harming anyone through drugs or other such illegalities. By regulating it we ensure safety through methods such as: security to make sure clients don't get nasty and that they comply with the condom rule, that sex workers get regular health checks, protection of income, superannuation and other such benefits every other worker gets.

 

My other reason is personal liberty. If a person chooses to do this, they should be allowed to. Its as simple as that, it's their body. They aren't harming anyone. You don't have to go to one. If politicians can announce job cuts for 000s of people without warning and jeopardizing the future of all those people and their families, then a prostitute can charge $399 an hour for willing clients.

 

Would I be happy if my daughter, sister, cousin etc became one? Of course not. I don't like prostitutes and would be very disappointed. But that does not mean I think it should be illegal. I would prefer her to be safe, than run the risk of getting HIV or getting stabbed by a gangbanger. And that right there, is the basis for this whole argument.

[KathyM]

I live in a country (Australia) where prostitution is legal and regulated. Note however, that street walking is illegal still (as it should be). My arguments for supporting the legalization of prostitution are two-fold, and I will outline them in the next paragraph.

 

Firstly - Prostitution will occur regardless of if we legalise it or not. That is just a simple fact of life. However by legalizing and regulating it we can provide protection and rights to the people who choose to engage in this sort of employment. By allowing prostitutes to choose their clients, rather than being terrified of being beaten up by their pimp and doing anything they ask, their safety will be improved. That to me is the most important aspect. No matter how much some people like to dehumanize them, prostitutes are just people like us, trying to earn a living. For whatever reason, they are in this job. They don't deserve to be beaten or raped for this. They are not harming anyone through drugs or other such illegalities. By regulating it we ensure safety through methods such as: security to make sure clients don't get nasty and that they comply with the condom rule, that sex workers get regular health checks, protection of income, superannuation and other such benefits every other worker gets.

 

My other reason is personal liberty. If a person chooses to do this, they should be allowed to. Its as simple as that, it's their body. They aren't harming anyone. You don't have to go to one. If politicians can announce job cuts for 000s of people without warning and jeopardizing the future of all those people and their families, then a prostitute can charge $399 an hour for willing clients.

 

Would I be happy if my daughter, sister, cousin etc became one? Of course not. I don't like prostitutes and would be very disappointed. But that does not mean I think it should be illegal. I would prefer her to be safe, than run the risk of getting HIV or getting stabbed by a gangbanger. And that right there, is the basis for this whole argument.

Well, I'll counter the points you made here. You said prostitution will occur whether we legalize it or not. True, but it will be a lot more prolific if it is legalized. That's not a good thing. You say prostitutes are just trying to earn a living, and should be allowed to do so. The problem is, the bulk of their clients are married, so what their job consists of is primarily enabling married men to cheat on their wives. That's not a profession that should be supported and legalized. It's a destructive profession that ruins marriages and families. Their behavior does harm people. It destroys marriages and families. Legalizing prostitution does not protect people from getting STDs. Some STDs can be transmitted even when a condom is used. Some STDs will not turn up in tests until six months after exposure. That's a heck of a lot of people being potentially infected before the prostitute even knows that she has something.

[Mme. Chaucer]

The problem is, the bulk of their clients are married, so what their job consists of is primarily enabling married men to cheat on their wives.

 

The problem is, that's B. S.

[KathyM]

The problem is, that's B. S.

All the studies say that I have read that the clients of prostitutes are mostly married men. All the testimonies I have read from prostitutes say that most of their clients are married men. Your denial of that does not change the facts. Most of their clients are married men.

[123321]

All the studies say that I have read that the clients of prostitutes are mostly married men.

 

OK so wait, someone did studies on what you had read, and then determined that what you read was that the clients of prostitutes are mostly married men? What an odd study, seems like "they" could have just asked, no need for a study.

[Els]

Do you even bother to read the posts? I have said very clearly that by devaluing I am referring to the general notion that men can just masturbate and that's good enough.

 

Why are your afraid to recognize this? Why do you keep evading the point? Either you are incapable of understanding simple English or your are trying avoid something you don't want to accept.

 

Stop beating around the fscking bush. What you actually said was:

 

Originally Posted by Robert Z

Forcing men to go without sex devalues men - actually, they are devalued by women who think jacking off is good enough.

 

Why are you afraid to recognize this? Why do you keep evading the point? Either you are incapable of understanding your own simple English or you are trying to avoid something that you don't want to accept.

 

Personally, I don't care if you visit prostitutes, as long as they are legal and consensual and given basic employee/safety rights according to regulations. What I do care about is the ugly and entitled notion thrown around that anyone is 'forcing you to go without sex' and that doing so is 'devaluing men'. Nobody can force you to go without anything when you weren't entitled to it in the first place. That's like saying my bf is forcing me to go without vacations to Hawaii and devaluing me by thinking that going to the local tourism spots is good enough. What the hell?

 

What if you go to a prostitute and she turns you down because you don't want to pay her enough, or because she wants to use condoms and you don't, or because you want a sexual act that she doesn't want to do? Is she now one of the evil, sexist women that is 'forcing you to go without sex', instead of benevolent women who 'enjoy serving the needs of good men who just need some companionship and intimacy'?

 

 

Ah, so now you are telling me what the problem was. Please tell me more. How were we incompatible? Why didn't I leave sooner? What was the core of the problem? Clearly you have it all figured out based on a few posts. So tell me all about it. Please tell me how it was all my fault. Tell me how simple it all was.

 

How should I know why you didn't leave sooner? Unless your wife was holding a gun to you or your child's head, you absolutely could. More absolvation of personal responsibility and choice.

 

 

That's because you are refusing to acknowledge the context in order to obfuscate. This is waste of my time. If you ever come to terms with your own biases, try again. It is clear to me that you don't want to understand my points.

 

If you wished people to understand your points, you should try not putting crap in them.

 

I live in a country (Australia) where prostitution is legal and regulated. Note however, that street walking is illegal still (as it should be). My arguments for supporting the legalization of prostitution are two-fold, and I will outline them in the next paragraph.

 

Firstly - Prostitution will occur regardless of if we legalise it or not. That is just a simple fact of life. However by legalizing and regulating it we can provide protection and rights to the people who choose to engage in this sort of employment. By allowing prostitutes to choose their clients, rather than being terrified of being beaten up by their pimp and doing anything they ask, their safety will be improved. That to me is the most important aspect. No matter how much some people like to dehumanize them, prostitutes are just people like us, trying to earn a living. For whatever reason, they are in this job. They don't deserve to be beaten or raped for this. They are not harming anyone through drugs or other such illegalities. By regulating it we ensure safety through methods such as: security to make sure clients don't get nasty and that they comply with the condom rule, that sex workers get regular health checks, protection of income, superannuation and other such benefits every other worker gets.

 

My other reason is personal liberty. If a person chooses to do this, they should be allowed to. Its as simple as that, it's their body. They aren't harming anyone. You don't have to go to one. If politicians can announce job cuts for 000s of people without warning and jeopardizing the future of all those people and their families, then a prostitute can charge $399 an hour for willing clients.

 

Would I be happy if my daughter, sister, cousin etc became one? Of course not. I don't like prostitutes and would be very disappointed. But that does not mean I think it should be illegal. I would prefer her to be safe, than run the risk of getting HIV or getting stabbed by a gangbanger. And that right there, is the basis for this whole argument.

 

Agreed. That aligns completely with my own view of prostitution.

[joystickd]

All the studies say that I have read that the clients of prostitutes are mostly married men. All the testimonies I have read from prostitutes say that most of their clients are married men. Your denial of that does not change the facts. Most of their clients are married men.

Have you ever talked to real hookers? Are these actual studies or surveys? The funny thing about "studies" and testimonies is that people can tell you anything.

[Els]

OK so wait, someone did studies on what you had read, and then determined that what you read was that the clients of prostitutes are mostly married men? What an odd study, seems like "they" could have just asked, no need for a study.

 

I am really curious what Kathy thinks all the married men who went seeking prostitutes would do, if somehow, miraculously, the profession was completely abolished altogether. They'd all think, "Aww, I can't get me no prostitutes to sleep with anymore, so I had better stop that and start being a good and faithful husband and father now and love my wife", I suppose?

[KathyM]

OK so wait, someone did studies on what you had read, and then determined that what you read was that the clients of prostitutes are mostly married men? What an odd study, seems like "they" could have just asked, no need for a study.

Do you have a comprehension problem, among other issues?