123321 Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Can you stick with the topic? Human trafficking for the purpose of prostitution increased .... I keep talking but the fast stuff is going over yer head son /foghornlegghorn Let me tell you about the trafficked woman I chatted with last week. You see, prostitution is illegal here, so anyone who assists the women to get work in the bar is a trafficker, and any woman who accepts help is trafficked. Of the 9 I spoke to last week, 7 had asked for and received one or more of the following: Bus ticketsAirplane ticketsFunds to assist them in travellingAssistance in contacting an employerFunds to assist them in living until they started to earn Now, if their employment in prostitution were legal, they would not be trafficked. However in many cases where prostitution is nominally legal, it's also highly regulated, and so when for instance a Thai woman wants to cash in on the big money in say, Australia, as a hooker (or maid, or domestic helper), she will typically travel with and then violate a tourist VISA. Places that will hire such an illegal employee for any work, whether it be washing dishes or polishing wankers, are illegal and are participating in trafficking, and the woman is now trafficked. Now in the case of the maid, no one typically notices or cares, but not so the hooker. That scenario contributes mightily to the "trafficking" statistic, but it's not really a case of human slavery. This is why the stats for the two are so dramatically different.
KathyM Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Um, not so. What about the Miss USA etc. pageants? The "super models" who are expected to be razor thin or they won't get work? The porn industry? Cosmetics? Fashion? All legal, and talk about exploiting women! How does the cosmetic industry devalue women? They create a product that women want to improve their appearance? You could make the argument that the cosmetic industry devalues animals by testing their products on animals. The modeling industry in the U.S. is actually conducting a campaign against eating disorders right now, and some in the industry are even refusing to hire models who are anorexic. Beauty pageants honor a woman's achievements, her personality, her poise and grace, her global awareness, her speaking ability, as well as her appearance, and they also give academic scholarships to these women, and have them represent the country as an ambassador for many worthwhile causes. How is that devaluing women?
d'Arthez Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Beauty pageants honor a woman's achievements, her personality [...] Who said that women can't be comedians?:lmao: 6
KathyM Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 It's easy to see if one wants to see it. If, however, one is attempting to bolster a failing stance, one might refuse to see the obvious. So using cosmetics devalues women, just like prostitution devalues women? By that same argument, having your hair professionally done devalues women. Getting a suntan devalues women. Wearing attractive clothes devalues women. I don't see your logic with that analogy.
denise_xo Posted June 22, 2012 Posted June 22, 2012 Beauty pageants honor a woman's achievements, her personality, her poise and grace, her global awareness, her speaking ability, as well as her appearance, and they also give academic scholarships to these women, and have them represent the country as an ambassador for many worthwhile causes. You mean, when they make them go on stage and say "I really care about world peace and...stuff"? 1
Els Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Well, since legalization has caused human trafficking to increase to those countries where it is legal, it's pretty safe to assume the problem would be worse here in the U.S. (human trafficking) if it were legalized. Fortunately, in the U.S., the majority of people still consider prostitution to be exploitative to women and children, and they don't believe in legitimizing and legalizing something that devalues women. I already made my point for you 23867896786788 times, I'm not interested in doing it 23867896786789 times, as I said. Nor was I even talking to you. You clearly live in a world of your own delusions where USA is The Greatest Country in the World, you spout woefully misbegotten stats and ideas about not only your country but also other countries, and your mind is driven not by logic, but by emotions and conservative dogma. Really not worth my time. Not that TBF is any better, I simply posted because I find it amusing how, after arguing heatedly against the anti-legalization stance, she swiftly changes sides after experiencing a severe emotional response to the personal posts of ONE poster, who really is not saying anything that couldn't have been logically inferred to begin with. Not only that, but she then regales the people who remain on the other side with insults that she herself would find ludicrous had she still been there. Obviously, whatever side she is currently on must be the correct one, and other posters must switch immediately as she does or face her wrath. 2
somedude81 Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Beauty pageants honor a woman's achievements, her personality, her poise and grace, her global awareness, her speaking ability, as well as her appearance, and they also give academic scholarships to these women, and have them represent the country as an ambassador for many worthwhile causes. You mean, when they make them go on stage and say "I really care about world peace and...stuff"?
Els Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 You mean, when they make them go on stage and say "I really care about world peace and...stuff"? Yep, beauty pageants are all about good-hearted, well-spoken, brilliant women... didn't you know that? All the boobs, bikinis, perfectly-styled hair, long legs, and gorgeous features are just garnish on the plate when it comes to such things. After all, the USA would never dream of viewing a woman as just a sex object. It also treats women better than any other country in the world. So Kathy says, and so it must be true. 1
threebyfate Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Oh, my. So a mere month ago, you were either visiting prostitutes or one yourself? Interesting news, TBF. Or did all supporters of legalization suddenly become self-interested, self-validating people the very day you changed your stance? So convenient to always be on the 'right' side, isn't it? No. Right out the gate, I was clear about how disgusting I found the occupation of prostitution and that I have no respect for hookers. This differs from those who feel that hookers should be respected. For someone who speaks in such an intelligent manner, TBF, I find it amusing how half the time you don't actually know jack about what you're talking about. Refer to this quote I found of yours, that agrees with my position that women are second class citizens in Asian countries. So I guess that makes two of us who know jack. Boys are more valued than girls in many Asian cultures. Very sad, but very true. In certain cases it goes to the extent of parents in countries where children are limited (China, Singapore) aborting when they have a girl just so they can fulfill their quota with a boy instead. In smaller ways, too, the boys get more freedom, the girls are expected to help around the house more, and in family gatherings the men and sons always get 'priority'. That is one of the main reasons I despise my own culture (I'm Asian). Go and look up how 'many' Asian countries have legal prostitution. Then go and look up which OTHER countries actually have legal prostitution. Aww, does that muck with your theory? I'm sorry. Ah yes, the beauty of legalized prostitution. Let's examine Singapore where it's legalized. And yet Singapore's human trafficking numbers are increasing. Why? Human trafficking experts said Singapore's figures differ from the US report because the police do not consider women as trafficking victims if they arrive voluntarily. Singapore- a Silent Haven for Women Trafficked for Prostitution | MedIndia BTW, lack of legal prostitution hasn't really helped the USA very much, mm, if your metric of success or failure is the frequency with which men cheat? Btw, legalized prostitution hasn't really helped Singapore much if your metric of success and failure is the reduction in human trafficking. Oh and before I forget, street walking or maintaining a brothel are still both illegal.
123321 Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Ah yes, the beauty of legalized prostitution. Let's examine Singapore where it's legalized. And yet Singapore's human trafficking numbers are increasing. Why? Because a lot of what is technically trafficking is relatively benign, whereas human slavery is not. Oh wait, I've told you that like, a few dozen times already.
threebyfate Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Because a lot of what is technically trafficking is relatively benign, whereas human slavery is not. Oh wait, I've told you that like, a few dozen times already.Refer to my citation. Where's yours? Waiting for Elswyth to respond since she apparently knows and sees all, where I know jack, and yet, she agrees with me, not just this once but quite often. Strange.
123321 Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) Refer to my citation. Where's yours? Waiting for Elswyth to respond since she apparently knows and sees all, where I know jack, and yet, she agrees with me, not just this once but quite often. Strange. Here is one of many articles that explains it pretty clearly, for those who are willing to see. A few excerpts: "Here, following the Swedish model, the amendment sought to criminalize customers of trafficked sex workers. Trafficking was however broadly defined to render all sex workers as trafficked and therefore all customers as criminals." "The conceptual displacement of trafficking to sex trafficking is perplexing, however, given that the sub-continent is home to millions of bonded laborers, forced laborers, child laborers, and migrant workers who are routinely recruited and often transported under false promises to distant places regionally for purposes of work-related exploitation. These workers include men, women, and children who work in India’s brick kilns, rice mills, farms, embroidery factories, mines, stone quarries, and as domestic workers, beggars, agricultural workers, and carpet weavers. Indeed, 90 percent of trafficking in India is said to be internal." More: "trafficking and slavery are related yet different phenomena. Trafficking is not a ‘new form of slavery’ (Bass 2004, 152) because different actors, features and mechanisms co-exist with the similarities." Edited June 23, 2012 by 123321
Els Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 No. Right out the gate, I was clear about how disgusting I found the occupation of prostitution and that I have no respect for hookers. This differs from those who feel that hookers should be respected. Ah, so it is only the people who support the legalization of prostitution who are self-interested and self-validating, but the people who support the legalization of prostitution while also thinking of prostitutes as 'disgusting' are exempt from being such? Such a specific delineation. Refer to this quote I found of yours, that agrees with my position that women are second class citizens in Asian countries. So I guess that makes two of us who know jack. Ah yes, the beauty of legalized prostitution. Let's examine Singapore where it's legalized. And yet Singapore's human trafficking numbers are increasing. Why? Singapore- a Silent Haven for Women Trafficked for Prostitution | MedIndia Btw, legalized prostitution hasn't really helped Singapore much if your metric of success and failure is the reduction in human trafficking. Oh and before I forget, street walking or maintaining a brothel are still both illegal. My dear TBF, here's a convenient map for your perusal. File:Prostitution laws of the world.PNG - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia See that huge red continent over there on the right? That's Asia, FYI. Now what was that again about lack of women rights in several parts of Asia and its correlation with legal prostitution, mm? On the other hand, note the countries that do have regulated and legal prostitution. Africa: Côte d'Ivoire, Senegal Asia: Europe: Austria, Germany, Greece, Hungary, Latvia, Netherlands, Switzerland, Turkey North America: Mexico, Panama, United States (only in some rural counties of Nevada, see Prostitution in Nevada) Oceania: Australia (in most eastern states, see Prostitution in Australia), New Zealand South America: Bolivia, Colombia, Ecuador, Paraguay, Peru, Uruguay, Venezuela Yes, you're right. There IS a correlation between legalized prostitution and women's rights. You just got it the other way round. Since you folk love quoting statistics, the countries in bold are ranked by Mercer's Quality of Living index as having the top gender equality ratings... far and above the USA, not to mention Asia. Admit it, TBF. Casey's posts somehow struck an emotional chord in you and you're lashing out with everything you've got - which, sadly, doesn't include much knowledge and logic where this topic is concerned. It's amusing that you could do such a 180 degree change based on posts from ONE prostitute. Not only that, but previously, when you were supporting the legalization of prostitution, what did you REALLY think prostitutes did? Background checks on every client to ensure that his marital status wasn't 'married'? 3
123321 Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 Background checks on every client to ensure that his marital status wasn't 'married'? Sure, in the same way that Chevy dealers make sure to never sell Corvettes to people who get speeding tickets. 2
Robert Z Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) So using cosmetics devalues women, just like prostitution devalues women? By that same argument, having your hair professionally done devalues women. Getting a suntan devalues women. Wearing attractive clothes devalues women. I don't see your logic with that analogy. Forcing men to go without sex devalues men - actually, they are devalued by women who think jacking off is good enough. Have you ever done manual labor? Have you ever had a dangerous job? Have you ever worked 100+ hour weeks. I have. When I was much younger, I was forced to put my life on the line every day for a low-wage job. Is falling off a three-story building more acceptable than sex? How about working so many hours that you start to hallucinate in a dangerous work environment? Is that okay? How about being abused by your boss, day in and day out, without even a pretense of consideration or respect? How about spending your entire life as an expendable piece of meat? This is what men have been doing for money for centuries in order to support their families and wives. I can gaurantee you that I have had to do things far worse than having sex to make a living. So why is "selling your body" so terrible? Models do it. How about selling your body as an athlete? Many pros are left crippled and ruined for life in their effort to make it. Is this better than sex? Why is a simple, very human, very natural act so much worse than the inhuman demands put on men [and now women] every day? I think the answer is sexism. If men are falling from skyscrapers, getting electrocuted, working themselves to death in dangerous, dirty environments, and shortening their lives, or fixating on suicide because they have a selfish, ungiving wife, no problem. But if a women gives of herself for money, oh the horror of it all!!! Funny, I'm starting to respect prostitutes more than many "regular" women. At least prostitutes are honest about human needs. And they have shown me far more tenderness than my wife ever did. Edited June 23, 2012 by Robert Z
Robert Z Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 (edited) I had to make a quick trip to Nevada yesterday. So last night I spent an evening with one of my special friends. Here is how her evening went. She arrived at my $500 hotel room early in the evening. We sat and talked for a bit and then headed into the bedroom. After some caressing and kissing, she gave me pleasure for a time. Then I spent the next hour and a half or so massaging her and listening to her problems. Being that I am much older than her, I am often able to offer sound advice. In this case, she stresses far too much over personal matters. So I tried to offer some perspective and coping techniques [For a long time I too suffered with similar stress problems and have learned to manage it]. All along, I massaged her incredibly tense body until she melted into the bed and could barely speak. I finished the massage by bringing her to orgasm. Then a bit more action for me, and we rested. After a time, she took her $1000 and went home. As always, she made a point to kiss me goodbye... and not on the cheek, a good one! There is your abuse. Edited June 23, 2012 by Robert Z 1
MooBear Posted June 23, 2012 Posted June 23, 2012 I think people judge because they are selling something that was meant to be (in the Bible) between 2 people who love each other and are committed for life. I don't judge them, nor do I feel sorry for them (except the ones forced to do it - that's just horrific). I see no difference between paying a hooker for sex, and buying a girl lots of drinks in a club to take her home for sex. Except with a hooker it's a guaranteed thing and no messy drama!
123321 Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 As nations become more secular and more advanced in human rights, prostitution tends to become decriminalized. This is to be expected as it really is a matter of a person exercising their basic right to control their own body. All the rest of the "debate" is hand waving and window dressing put out by those who want to maintain the current state of affairs. 1
denise_xo Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 Have you ever done manual labor? Have you ever had a dangerous job? Have you ever worked 100+ hour weeks. I have. When I was much younger, I was forced to put my life on the line every day for a low-wage job. Is falling off a three-story building more acceptable than sex? How about working so many hours that you start to hallucinate in a dangerous work environment? Is that okay? How about being abused by your boss, day in and day out, without even a pretense of consideration or respect? How about spending your entire life as an expendable piece of meat? This is what men have been doing for money for centuries in order to support their families and wives. I can gaurantee you that I have had to do things far worse than having sex to make a living. If men are falling from skyscrapers, getting electrocuted, working themselves to death in dangerous, dirty environments, and shortening their lives, or fixating on suicide because they have a selfish, ungiving wife, no problem. Funny, I'm starting to respect prostitutes more than many "regular" women. At least prostitutes are honest about human needs. And they have shown me far more tenderness than my wife ever did. Of course men have historically been disadvantaged in many ways. I don't think anyone in this thread has argued that this is not the case. But that is exactly why a lot of advanced societies now have legislation in place to protect the health and safety of workers, so that they won't have to deal with work environments that are dangerous or fall down from skyscrapers. If you don't currently have those kind of health and safety regulations in the US, or a minimum wage that people can live off without having to put in 100 hours a week, that's a result of political priorities, and it's quite irrelevant to a debate of whether prostitution should be legalised or not. I'm sorry that you wife didn't show you any tenderness. Personally, I wouldn't stay in a marriage without tenderness or sex. If you made that choice, that's on you. I had to make a quick trip to Nevada yesterday. So last night I spent an evening with one of my special friends. Here is how her evening went. She arrived at my $500 hotel room early in the evening. We sat and talked for a bit and then headed into the bedroom. After some caressing and kissing, she gave me pleasure for a time. Then I spent the next hour and a half or so massaging her and listening to her problems. Being that I am much older than her, I am often able to offer sound advice. In this case, she stresses far too much over personal matters. So I tried to offer some perspective and coping techniques [For a long time I too suffered with similar stress problems and have learned to manage it]. All along, I massaged her incredibly tense body until she melted into the bed and could barely speak. I finished the massage by bringing her to orgasm. Then a bit more action for me, and we rested. After a time, she took her $1000 and went home. As always, she made a point to kiss me goodbye... and not on the cheek, a good one! There is your abuse. Your single example is just that, one example. It's extremely easy to counter that example with one of a woman who has been forced into prostitution, thinking that she was going to another country to work in a restaurant or as a maid. Prostitutes are a very diverse and composite group, and you have to treat them as such if you're discussing at the level of changing national laws.
Taramere Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 I had to make a quick trip to Nevada yesterday. So last night I spent an evening with one of my special friends. Here is how her evening went. She arrived at my $500 hotel room early in the evening. We sat and talked for a bit and then headed into the bedroom. After some caressing and kissing, she gave me pleasure for a time. Then I spent the next hour and a half or so massaging her and listening to her problems. Being that I am much older than her, I am often able to offer sound advice. In this case, she stresses far too much over personal matters. So I tried to offer some perspective and coping techniques [For a long time I too suffered with similar stress problems and have learned to manage it]. All along, I massaged her incredibly tense body until she melted into the bed and could barely speak. I finished the massage by bringing her to orgasm. Then a bit more action for me, and we rested. After a time, she took her $1000 and went home. As always, she made a point to kiss me goodbye... and not on the cheek, a good one! There is your abuse. I believe the term is self-abuse. I'm sure the sky wouldn't have fallen in if you'd said "sweetheart, I'm sorry that you're in a stressed place and I don't mind giving you a bit of emotional support....but I'm not about to pay $1,000 for the privilege of playing counsellor/masseur to you. Your choice. You can stay and talk...and accept that you're not making any cash tonight, or you can leave and give me a call when you're fit to get back to work. If you're going to take the line that prostitution is a contractual service like any other, then you should probably be consistent and require that service providers fulfil the terms of their contract before you pay them. That's not dehumanising people, it's just requesting that they fulfil their part of a bargain that they've made freely. If you feel uncomfortable doing it, then that suggests that deep down you might have more of an issue with prostitution than you want to admit.
denise_xo Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 (edited) To all the men speaking of prostitution as just any other job: If your daughter (whether real or hypothetical), decided that she wanted to become a prostitute, would you support her? If you met a woman and started building a serious relationship with her, and she told you that she had regularly used prostitutes in the past, would that alter how you felt about her? If you met a woman and started building a serious relationship with her, and she told you that she had previously worked several years as a prostitute, or was currently working as a prostitute, would that alter how you felt about the relationship? Would your reaction be different if she had been a carpenter rather than a prostitute? Edited June 24, 2012 by denise_xo 1
Taramere Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 To all the men speaking of prostitution as just any other job: If your daughter (whether real or hypothetical), decided that she wanted to become a prostitute, would you support her? If you met a woman and started building a serious relationship with her, and she told you that she had regularly used prostitutes in the past, would that alter how you felt about her? If you met a woman and started building a serious relationship with her, and she told you that she had previously worked several years as a prostitute, or was currently working as a prostitute, would that alter how you felt about the relationship? This is the crux of it. A lot of the argumentative posts by men who use/are contemplating using prostitutes (and who seem anxious for others to validate the decision as "okay" or "not sad/anti-social/dehumanising") seem to speak of internal conflict about the whole thing more than anything else.
123321 Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 To all the men speaking of prostitution as just any other job: If your daughter (whether real or hypothetical), decided that she wanted to become a prostitute, would you support her? I've dated ex-hookers, and I think I've been pretty clear that I think being a hooker is a crappy job. Having said that, it's not my place to tell women as a group that they cannot take jobs that *I* think are crappy, it's their body and their choice. I wouldn't be in favor of my hypothetical daughter taking any crap job or making other huge mistakes in life choices, but if she did so despite my best efforts then of course I would be there for her.
A O Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 If your daughter (whether real or hypothetical), decided that she wanted to become a prostitute, would you support her? Support her, as in, 'you go girl' - no. Support her as in I'm there for you come whatever - yes. Respect her right to make such a decision - definitely. She has free will, freedom of choice and that is thee most important thing here. Wouldn't want anyone I care for to do many types of work and to make certain choices overall. But will always respect their right to be able to do so. Recent case in point, I have relatives playing professional sport in Australia. They moved from my country (New Zealand) in their late teens to have a shot at the big leagues. They have now being there long enough (three years) to qualify them to play sport for Australia. My point being, I will not support their decision to play for Australia if indeed they choose to do (big money bonuses, increased fame and pressure brought to bear by the power brokers of this sport being some of the reasons why some kiwi lads have already decided to turn their backs on their homeland). Will be there for them otherwise. If you met a woman and started building a serious relationship with her, and she told you that she had regularly used prostitutes in the past, would that alter how you felt about her? If you met a woman and started building a serious relationship with her, and she told you that she had previously worked several years as a prostitute, or was currently working as a prostitute, would that alter how you felt about the relationship? Would your reaction be different if she had been a carpenter rather than a prostitute?At the end of the day, we can create any type of situation/argument that suits our point of view. Bottom line is that there's consequences to freedom of choice. Some people may approve or disapprove of your stance, of my stance or of the many other opinions expressed here. Whatever view is expressed will garner a reaction...but these views and these reactions, well, they're all of our own making - they're our choice to make. Freedom of choice is imperative, but there are consequences to them, many good, some unfortunately, not so. 2
denise_xo Posted June 24, 2012 Posted June 24, 2012 At the end of the day, we can create any type of situation/argument that suits our point of view. Bottom line is that there's consequences to freedom of choice. Some people may approve or disapprove of your stance, of my stance or of the many other opinions expressed here. Whatever view is expressed will garner a reaction...but these views and these reactions, well, they're all of our own making - they're our choice to make. Freedom of choice is imperative, but there are consequences to them, many good, some unfortunately, not so. I am not addressing the issue of freedom of choice. I am addressing the issue that, IME, a lot of men express very liberal views when it comes to their options of using prostitutes, but seem to become much more defensive when it comes to women using prostitutes, or about their own (potential) partner having had prior experience of working as a stripper or a prostitute, or having used one herself. As just one particular example, there was a thread on here last year asking something along the lines of 'women, would it put you off if a man you met had been with prostitutes'. A lot of the women on this forum answered that yes, it would, and many said it would be a deal breaker. When I asked the OP whether he would be comfortable with having a partner that had used male prostitutes, he broke into a flurry about how that didn't apply the other way round. I find such double standards relatively common, although some, like 123321's post, are much more principled about it.
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