nofool4u Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 That's a very silly thing to say. Why? You think a good man is going to be happy finding out a woman he is seeing was a prostitute?
casey1989 Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Why? You think a good man is going to be happy finding out a woman he is seeing was a prostitute? People's perception of 'good' is different. Your idea of a good man, and mine are probably poles apart. Everyone has different needs and wants from a partner. We are all different and I think it's ridiculous to say that someone won't find another person and have a loving relationship with them.
nofool4u Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 People's perception of 'good' is different. Your idea of a good man, and mine are probably poles apart. Everyone has different needs and wants from a partner. We are all different and I think it's ridiculous to say that someone won't find another person and have a loving relationship with them. I never said they won't. I said any DECENT man will not be happy finding out the woman he is with screwed thousands of men for money. Or even not for money. The X-ho might find a guy in the future, but I don't know many decent men that will be ok with finding out their past. The guy in question would probably have to have just as many skeletons in the closet to be forgiving of such a huge issue. Again, a DECENT man won't want a ho turned housewife.
casey1989 Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I never said they won't. I said any DECENT man will not be happy finding out the woman he is with screwed thousands of men for money. Or even not for money. The X-ho might find a guy in the future, but I don't know many decent men that will be ok with finding out their past. The guy in question would probably have to have just as many skeletons in the closet to be forgiving of such a huge issue. Again, a DECENT man won't want a ho turned housewife. Good/ Decent. Any way you want to dress it up it's all relative!
KathyM Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Most men would have a pretty hard time with the thought that their wife had banged hundreds of men she had no feelings for whatsoever. That's a hard image to get past for a lot of men when it comes to the person they want to marry. Maybe some men can compartmentalize it and think it was just a job, a way to make money, and think of sex as just a physical act and nothing more. But I'd say those types of men who think so casually about their wife are pretty rare.
Els Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I never said they won't. I said any DECENT man will not be happy finding out the woman he is with screwed thousands of men for money. Or even not for money. The X-ho might find a guy in the future, but I don't know many decent men that will be ok with finding out their past. The guy in question would probably have to have just as many skeletons in the closet to be forgiving of such a huge issue. Again, a DECENT man won't want a ho turned housewife. Umm, weren't you the one asking about how to negotiate with hookers again?
Scottdmw Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 You ARE back to your original point, that I have already disproved via logic. You are not simply extrapolating that the 'demand goes up'. You are extrapolating that 'women switch over from illegal brothels to legal ones when it is legalized so the empty spots in illegal brothels need to be filled and women are trafficked in to fill that'. That is as good a reason against legalizing prostitution, as it would be against rescuing women from prostitution or counselling them out of it or raiding illegal brothels - they ALL leave 'empty spots to be filled'. I disagree that you have proved anything. You didn't answer my question though. What do you think would happen if legalization occurs? Does the demand go up? If you think not, why not? Scott
Els Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I disagree that you have proved anything. You didn't answer my question though. What do you think would happen if legalization occurs? Does the demand go up? If you think not, why not? Scott I think the demand for legal brothels will go up, yes, which will not be a problem when properly enforced. The demand for illegal prostitutes will go down or remain the same. And if the prostitutes who leave illegal brothels to pursue legal careers in safe and regulated brothels create a void that people are tempted to fill with trafficking, law enforcement will need to increase at the same time to prevent this. It isn't a sufficient drawback to override the clear benefits of legalization (that have already been explained here to great detail and that you have mostly either agreed with or not addressed). We should not stop police action against illegal brothels in fear of other trafficked women being brought in to replace the trafficked women who were saved by the action, and equally so we should not oppose a law that, when implemented properly, will protect the safety and interests of women in prostitution just because of this fear.
somedude81 Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I disagree that you have proved anything. You didn't answer my question though. What do you think would happen if legalization occurs? Does the demand go up? If you think not, why not? Scott And you ignored my previous post addressed to you.
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 It is virtually impossible to police all transactional sex. Some of them are legal marriages (some marriage contracts even stipulate how much sex one is entitled to). You can also look at some of the most repressive places on earth.
KathyM Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 It is virtually impossible to police all transactional sex. Some of them are legal marriages (some marriage contracts even stipulate how much sex one is entitled to). You can also look at some of the most repressive places on earth. I'd hardly call Sweden a repressive place. They used to have legalized prostitution, and now decided to make it illegal, resulting in a much reduced incidence of prostitution in that country, going from 2,500 to 1,500 estimated prostitutes in the country. Human trafficking to that country also went down substantially after prostitution was made illegal. Other countries are now considering using that model of change for their own country, since it had a positive impact on Sweden when prostitution was made illegal.
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I'd hardly call Sweden a repressive place. They used to have legalized prostitution, and now decided to make it illegal, resulting in a much reduced incidence of prostitution in that country, going from 2,500 to 1,500 estimated prostitutes in the country. You could not be further from the truth. There will be tens of thousands of women who engage in transactional sex in Sweden alone. Except that most of them are called "girlfriend" or "wife". Just because people do not have the label of prostitutes, does not necessarily mean they do not engage in transactional sex. In the Netherlands for instance only 30% of the prostitution is done by hookers and escort girls.
Scottdmw Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 How'd you even come to the idea that the amount of supply has to go up to meet demand? There isn't some kind of hooker quota. Maybe supply would stay the same and prices rise if demand goes up? But of course, if prostitution does become legalized then the number of women who choose to go into will increase. Let's say we legalize prostitution and all the women that feel like they can do so switch to the legal brothels. Note that this is not all the women involved, the ones who are already being coerced and threatened with force are not going to suddenly feel free to leave. Demand goes up. You would say that prices will go up to control demand. But, the old illegal operations are still there, and they are still charging the same price as before. What do you think will happen? Illegal operations can charge the price they charge because they can use force and coercion and ignore safety standards. Are you sure that legal brothels could compete on price against them? Scott
Scottdmw Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 And you ignored my previous post addressed to you. I'm at work and actually had to do something. Response is above.
KathyM Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 You could not be further from the truth. There will be tens of thousands of women who engage in transactional sex in Sweden alone. Except that most of them are called "girlfriend" or "wife". Just because people do not have the label of prostitutes, does not necessarily mean they do not engage in transactional sex. In the Netherlands for instance only 30% of the prostitution is done by hookers and escort girls. So now you're making this an issue of women in general using men for money. It's time to wake up and smell the coffee, dear boy. Women have money of their own, believe it or not. They also have other things to offer to a relationship besides sex. Men have more than just their wallet to bring to the relationship. Why you insist on reducing men to nothing but a wallet, and women to nothing but a sex object is beyond me. But in any case, I'm not interested in engaging in any kitchen sink debates, so I'll be going to have my lunch now. Have a good day. Work on that issue of contempt for women that you seem to have.
somedude81 Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Let's say we legalize prostitution and all the women that feel like they can do so switch to the legal brothels. Switch to legal brothels from what? Note that this is not all the women involved, the ones who are already being coerced and threatened with force are not going to suddenly feel free to leave. I was never talking about coercion or threats. But since you brought it up, women who are coerced and threatened can now actually report it to the police, which is something they could not do when it was illegal. Demand goes up. You would say that prices will go up to control demand. But, the old illegal operations are still there, and they are still charging the same price as before. What do you think will happen? In the best case scenario, the illegal operations would no longer exist. For one, they are illegal and can be reported. And two, there would be a lack of clients. Illegal operations can charge the price they charge because they can use force and coercion and ignore safety standards. Are you sure that legal brothels could compete on price against them? Scott BTW, your post hardly addresses my own. I was asking why supply has to go up at all. If supply stayed the same, then prices would go up with an increase in demand.
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Work on that issue of contempt for women that you seem to have. Projecting much? :rolleyes:
Scottdmw Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I think the demand for legal brothels will go up, yes, which will not be a problem when properly enforced. The demand for illegal prostitutes will go down or remain the same. And if the prostitutes who leave illegal brothels to pursue legal careers in safe and regulated brothels create a void that people are tempted to fill with trafficking, law enforcement will need to increase at the same time to prevent this. It isn't a sufficient drawback to override the clear benefits of legalization (that have already been explained here to great detail and that you have mostly either agreed with or not addressed). We should not stop police action against illegal brothels in fear of other trafficked women being brought in to replace the trafficked women who were saved by the action, and equally so we should not oppose a law that, when implemented properly, will protect the safety and interests of women in prostitution just because of this fear. I agree with the first half of your statement, if law enforcement was stepped up enough it could limit the “filling the void” effect. Then again, we could also simply step up law enforcement and reduce the whole problem that way. At length then it sounds like we agree that demand would go up with legalization. More women and men would be involved in prostitution, albeit some of it the legal kind. So for me, the pros of legalization are greater protection for the women involved in the legal part of the trade, regulation, etc. The cons are that more people get involved in prostitution, which as I explained way back at the beginning I believe as a matter of opinion is personally damaging to all involved, legal or not. Also, it is not clear to me that legalization will really cover that many prostitutes. The example from Australia showed 100 legal brothels and 400 illegal ones, not exactly a ringing success. My evidence from the US government report said that 89% of prostitutes would stop doing it if they could, not exactly suggesting the existence of a large pool of currently illegal prostitutes who would be willing to freely work for legal brothels if they existed. For me to support legalization I would have to be convinced that it would result in an overall lower harm. Nothing that has been said so far has done that. Scott
Scottdmw Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Switch to legal brothels from what? From illegal ones of course. In the best case scenario, the illegal operations would no longer exist. For one, they are illegal and can be reported. And two, there would be a lack of clients. They are already illegal and can be reported, but that doesn't get rid of them. They would only have a lack of clients if the legal ones could supply sufficient women at a low enough price willing to provide what the customers want, all three of which are dubious assertions at best. BTW, your post hardly addresses my own. I was asking why supply has to go up at all. If supply stayed the same, then prices would go up with an increase in demand. If prices in a legal market rise and prices in a black-market stay the same, people go to the black market.
KathyM Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 Projecting much? :rolleyes: I'm not the one referring to all women as prostitutes using men just for their money--that would be you.
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 KatyM, So a statement of an actual fact is me being misogynistic? Or are facts that scary, and you fear that they are contagious?
Els Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 I agree with the first half of your statement, if law enforcement was stepped up enough it could limit the “filling the void” effect. Then again, we could also simply step up law enforcement and reduce the whole problem that way. At length then it sounds like we agree that demand would go up with legalization. More women and men would be involved in prostitution, albeit some of it the legal kind. So for me, the pros of legalization are greater protection for the women involved in the legal part of the trade, regulation, etc. The cons are that more people get involved in prostitution, which as I explained way back at the beginning I believe as a matter of opinion is personally damaging to all involved, legal or not. Also, it is not clear to me that legalization will really cover that many prostitutes. The example from Australia showed 100 legal brothels and 400 illegal ones, not exactly a ringing success. My evidence from the US government report said that 89% of prostitutes would stop doing it if they could, not exactly suggesting the existence of a large pool of currently illegal prostitutes who would be willing to freely work for legal brothels if they existed. For me to support legalization I would have to be convinced that it would result in an overall lower harm. Nothing that has been said so far has done that. Scott I don't understand why you keep reverting to statistics instead of addressing my logic. You will engage me in discussion halfway, agree to talk about the logic of things, and after a while back off into statistics again. Why is that? Fine, seeing as discussion by virtue of pure logic is not exactly possible between the two of us... What about the links I showed you? The New Zealand congress cites studies on benefits obtained by legalization their own country, to support their decision to continue to allow legal prostitution despite European countries cracking down on it. Another article is a collection of studies showing decreased rape rates and various other benefits to the population in general, in certain places. You yourself did not disagree with that when I posted it. The thing is that it should not be illegal to begin with. When you infringe on consenting adults' freedom, you need to have a damn good reason for it. And there being 'possibly no benefits from allowing this freedom' is NOT a good reason. The burden of the proof should be the other way round. Innocent until proven guilty. Null hypothesis not rejected until a significant confidence level is achieved. The fact that legalization didn't work all that well for TWO countries is not a good enough reason. How about problems with implementation? Lack of law enforcement to go with it? Failure to distinguish between genuine trafficking and inflated statistics? For me to support leaving prostitutes without legal protection and medical care, I would have to be convinced that it would result in incredible benefits to them and everyone else. Nothing that has been said so far has done that. 1
fortyninethousand322 Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 If you don't like prostitutes, don't frequent one. Problem solved. It's amazing how there are voluntary measures one can take to avoid things one finds unpleasant or repulsive. 1
KathyM Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 KatyM, So a statement of an actual fact is me being misogynistic? Or are facts that scary, and you fear that they are contagious] You're stating your opinion--not fact. (Your opinion being that all women are prostitutes who only use men for their money). Your opinion--not fact. And an unhealthy opinion for sure. Sounds rather misogynistic to me. But you're entitled to your opinion.
d'Arthez Posted June 15, 2012 Posted June 15, 2012 You're stating your opinion--not fact. (Your opinion being that all women are prostitutes who only use men for their money). Your opinion--not fact. And an unhealthy opinion for sure. Sounds rather misogynistic to me. But you're entitled to your opinion. You are deliberately and intentionally misconstruing my words. But if that is what you need to do to "win" an argument, all the power to you.
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