ThingsAreComplicated Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Good points you have made but I do have some questions. You mention being totally interested in every piece of her personality and person, what do you mean by this? If by interested you mean curious to know about her then yes I do want to learn everything I can. I mainly engage in small talk and ask a few personal questions but nothing too deep or sexual in any fashion for someone I just met. As for "be available, be caring, listen to what she says.." I guess that means I'm already showing interest as this is what I normally do automatically. I begin to realize the problem. If you do not intensify a conversation you will not come around as being interesting. In this case all that remains is your looks. This is enough for some women but not for most. And if you don't have the looks in this case you gonna have a hard time Never been in this situation but that sounds like a normal friendly and caring response. no, this reaction is more than "normal friendly". In that case I guess I meet quite a few women I'm interested in on a regular basis. plus its not like I'm actually seeking to have sex, though I do think about it. uhm ok. This is the main problem (besides the fact that this is a contradiction). If you are looking for a mate you HAVE TO HAVE sexual desire. Consider this from the womans perspective. Why would she want to be together with you if you "stated" (through your behaviour) from minute 1 on that you don't want to have sex with her...
Snowman219 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 My friend whos pretty good looking gets hit on a lot..Hes charismatic and makes around two hundred grand a year but they dont know this before they approach him so they go mostly by his looks.. It sucks beign with him i get ignored enough but getting ignored while your friend has women all over him gets me even more down and depressed Believe me, you can tell when a guy has $200,000 stuffed in his pants. He doesn't dress in a wife beater, walmart tennis shoes, and carry a lunch in a trash bag typical of someone who makes 8/hr. He probably has a flashy car. And if he does these things, well I didn't know your friend was Bill Gates...a trained eye, especially a woman, could pick this up quite easily. Maybe these women were stalking him before you knew they were .
zengirl Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I have a feeling that the guys who struggle here have this same issue...they don't realize how aggressive you actually have to be and are expected to be...and they just sit back and hope some girl will come to them...which goes against what society expects from men...no wonder they can't get dates... Thoughts...? As a woman who's perfectly happy to ask men out, express interest, and even initially made the first move on my now-Husband, I have to say that even I had no interest in men who 'sit back and hope girls will come to them.' I had complete interest in men who didn't go balls-out cold-calling every girl they thought was hot, because they wanted some sort of synergy beyond that out of the R. Absolutely. That's why I started expressing interest, being proactive in meeting men, etc, etc, so they could see who I was and cultivate that level of interest and investment so they WOULD express their interest and assertively take some actions. I don't think what you're referring to is even so much "dating like a woman" (though ATTRACTIVE women can certainly get away with dating the way you say --- they'll get better results if they're at least a little reasonable with putting in some effort as well) as much as it is just being flat-out either fearful or lazy. IME, that doesn't work out exactly great for women either, and most women need to be able to show their interest, at least through signals, proactively as well. The way they are socialized to do it may be different, but are you really sending signals or playing at flirting as a woman? Or are you just dating like a really passive man? The two are not the same, as women --- even when they aren't comfortable actually approaching as I do --- often DO initiate conversations and interactions with strangers by giving off signals that lead to such things starting. Actual studies show that most men who approach women only do so when they get such signals and that most women DO give them off consciously. Of course, women are not trained to respond to signals from men on this level, nor are men trained to give them, so I'm not saying giving off such signals would always work for men (sometimes it might, I guess), but I notice that most passive men aren't even really doing THAT part. Most of the men I've dated don't go around asking out every girl they find hot. As I said, I don't think that's a matter of fear or laziness on their part --- they simply didn't feel compelled to do so JUST from seeing a hot lady. However, when they DO feel compelled, they go after what they want. The reason I became more assertive, as a woman, was because I liked men who took a little more to become compelled to ask me out than just seeing a pretty girl across the room, not because I wanted a guy who was paralyzed by fear or totally lazy. It's easy to tell the difference.
denise_xo Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Well, for me personally, the passivity ends after interest is established... This is the key for me. I've pursued various men, but if I don't get indications of interest at some relatively early point, I'll back off.
wordrock Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Believe me, you can tell when a guy has $200,000 stuffed in his pants. He doesn't dress in a wife beater, walmart tennis shoes, and carry a lunch in a trash bag typical of someone who makes 8/hr. He probably has a flashy car. And if he does these things, well I didn't know your friend was Bill Gates...a trained eye, especially a woman, could pick this up quite easily. Maybe these women were stalking him before you knew they were . Eh... no. As a matter of fact, I know and have known several very wealthy guys who drive old cars and wear old clothes. One of them even looks like a janitor. I also have friends who drive expensive luxury cars, wear thousands of dollars worth of clothes and accessories, but have housemates and regular day jobs.
Woggle Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Eh... no. As a matter of fact, I know and have known several very wealthy guys who drive old cars and wear old clothes. One of them even looks like a janitor. I also have friends who drive expensive luxury cars, wear thousands of dollars worth of clothes and accessories, but have housemates and regular day jobs. This is so true. All the very wealthy people I know who keep it for a long time are not flashy at all.
Ross MwcFan Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 In my last thread of the evening...traditional gender roles dictate that men are the pursuers while women are the pursued...and I have realized that in dating, I behave like a woman in that I am so passive that I subconsciously expect women to pursue me...most likely due to low self-esteem and/or lack of "confidence," as it were...out of all my past dating experiences, the good majority have featured a woman who was the initial aggressor... I have a feeling that the guys who struggle here have this same issue...they don't realize how aggressive you actually have to be and are expected to be...and they just sit back and hope some girl will come to them...which goes against what society expects from men...no wonder they can't get dates... Thoughts...? I'm exactly the same, always have been.
irc333 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Carhill and to others.....good points. Guy meets woman at a house party or BBQ night, talks with her , gets he digits and says, "I'll give you a call, and we can get together." Guy calls woman up, goes to voice mail, leaves message, she doesn't return his call. WEekend is approaching, gives her another call, does the same thing. Then, he stops calling. Thing is though, there's a lot of women out there, when they blow off a guy or don't return his calls after the man has met them at an event or gathering. I have a friend that stops after 2 attempts and moves on. THEN he bumps into a woman at another house party, and she goes, "Oh, hey, I meant to cal you back, but I had this ...thing <insert lame excuse here>. And he's like 'Oh okay...". And she suggests getting together again. He tries ONE more attempt, but this time ONLY ONCE, and then doesn't ever call her again. He sees her again at a 3rd house party (among the same friends), same excuse...BUT she throws in, "How come you stopped calling?" And then alluded to the fact that he gave UP too easily. So she's saying he should persistently call her, until the point he becomes a PIA, and then MAYBE she'll give in. And, I think there's where the OP was originally formulated from, men ARE expected to pursue with repeated phone calls, or even numerous refusals....until she finally says, "okay, Ill go out with you" Women uses this persistance as a guage or measuring stick to how interested a man is interested in her. 1. If he tries a couple of times, and stops calling, SHE moves on 2. If he calls 6 times, and on the 7th time, she actually RETURNS his call (or answers) she'll go out with him....because...she has affirmed that HE IS interested in her after all. Personally, I think it's more about how she's gauging how her new future husband will be wrapped around her finger. IME, it's a matter of degrees, relevant to local dating dynamics. Example: One can ask ladies out on dates but if the competition aggressively and repeatedly 'doesn't take no for an answer', then women become used to that methodology and come to view less aggressive methods as non-interest. I recall hearing that as a direct critique of my dating style 20 or so years ago. 'Go after what you want and don't take no for an answer'. The newer version is 'always push boundaries'. Since my emotional style isn't up to that kind of activity and I don't view the local ladies as people to disrespect no's from nor have their boundaries overtly pushed, I choose not to play anymore. I found by going to other countries which have different dating dynamics I had better success with more compatible styles of interaction. It was that dynamic which originally, according to her words, impelled my exW to accept my perhaps less than aggressive style as valid and attractive, or perhaps she had other, unknown reasons, IDK. She did make mention of the 'competition' as being one part of the attraction process. And so it goes.
ThingsAreComplicated Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 This is some really bad advice...if I call someone that is not family, close friend or mate, I would never call again unless there is a really good reason to assume that the person couldn't return the call. Especially in "dating" I have NEVER EVER called again. Even voicemail is crap. This has absolutely nothing to do with interest but with basic politeness. If someone isn't answering your call he does not want to talk to you. NEVER EVER call a girl you just met 6 times. You'll ridicule yourself as bad as it can get...
zengirl Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Guy meets woman at a house party or BBQ night, talks with her , gets he digits and says, "I'll give you a call, and we can get together." Guy calls woman up, goes to voice mail, leaves message, she doesn't return his call. WEekend is approaching, gives her another call, does the same thing. Then, he stops calling. Well, if someone doesn't return your call (and you left a message), I see no reason to try further. I think there's a difference between being assertive and going after something and being an idiot.
fortyninethousand322 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 In my last thread of the evening...traditional gender roles dictate that men are the pursuers while women are the pursued...and I have realized that in dating, I behave like a woman in that I am so passive that I subconsciously expect women to pursue me...most likely due to low self-esteem and/or lack of "confidence," as it were...out of all my past dating experiences, the good majority have featured a woman who was the initial aggressor... I have a feeling that the guys who struggle here have this same issue...they don't realize how aggressive you actually have to be and are expected to be...and they just sit back and hope some girl will come to them...which goes against what society expects from men...no wonder they can't get dates... Thoughts...? As usual Hokie is right on the money. This is exactly my experience. I have occasionally been an initiator, but only after some reassuring sign of interest was shown. Thus far that's been a very unsuccessful way of going about things. There are probably ways of working and practicing at getting better around women. I just don't have the patience for it. The trade offs don't seem to be worth it for me.
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Well, if someone doesn't return your call (and you left a message), I see no reason to try further. I think there's a difference between being assertive and going after something and being an idiot. I generally agree though I don't characterize persistent people as idiots since they're often the same people who make important and positive changes in the world. However, there are degrees of persistence relevant to each dynamic. Interaction with a stranger in a social sense? Yeah, an overt expression of interest and leave it on the table. In the days prior to answering machines/voice mail I would call back if getting no answer but, after such devices came to be, would only leave one voice mail indicating my call and inviting the person to return it. 'Hi, it's carhill and (time/day). Call me back when you have a minute'. If crickets, next potential. My observations of the more aggressive men were mainly in public, in person, where they would persistently pursue a woman in person, not taking no for an answer, but in a flirtatious and often humorous way. That appeared, in my dating pool, to have traction, and it did work for me the same. I have no idea how those men behaved in private or on the phone. There are probably ways of working and practicing at getting better around women. I just don't have the patience for it. The trade offs don't seem to be worth it for me. I used to have patience, when young; now, not so much. I think, with more uniformly healthy experiences in the tank, perhaps that perspective might be different. As it is, pass.
HopelessRomantic76 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I have no respect for passive men,in a relationship and the begining stages i believe its the mans job to lead and be the agressor hunter gatherer etc Where are Men's balls these days? If i have a son im gonna make sure i raide him to be a strong Man who takes care of his women not some spineless wimp who is afraid to take over the world Sorry if im being harsh but masculinity is an extremely desirable trait and why women are attrcted to you men you are different then us more bold more brave stronger better at doing things and we love you for it If i want to date a weak minded passive insecure person ill date other women
fortyninethousand322 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I have no respect for passive men,in a relationship and the begining stages i believe its the mans job to lead and be the agressor hunter gatherer etc Where are Men's balls these days? If i have a son im gonna make sure i raide him to be a strong Man who takes care of his women not some spineless wimp who is afraid to take over the world Sorry if im being harsh but masculinity is an extremely desirable trait and why women are attrcted to you men you are different then us more bold more brave stronger better at doing things and we love you for it If i want to date a weak minded passive insecure person ill date other women I don't see how this has anything to do with "masculinity". I take charge in other parts of life, just not this particular part.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 This is some really bad advice...if I call someone that is not family, close friend or mate, I would never call again unless there is a really good reason to assume that the person couldn't return the call. Especially in "dating" I have NEVER EVER called again. Even voicemail is crap. This has absolutely nothing to do with interest but with basic politeness. If someone isn't answering your call he does not want to talk to you. NEVER EVER call a girl you just met 6 times. You'll ridicule yourself as bad as it can get... Absolutely agree. A girl will only get ONE call from me...fire and forget...if she doesn't call back, I can confidently assume shes not interested... 1
snug.bunny Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 In my last thread of the evening...traditional gender roles dictate that men are the pursuers while women are the pursued...and I have realized that in dating, I behave like a woman in that I am so passive that I subconsciously expect women to pursue me...most likely due to low self-esteem and/or lack of "confidence," as it were...out of all my past dating experiences, the good majority have featured a woman who was the initial aggressor... I have a feeling that the guys who struggle here have this same issue...they don't realize how aggressive you actually have to be and are expected to be...and they just sit back and hope some girl will come to them...which goes against what society expects from men...no wonder they can't get dates... Thoughts...? As your past thread history dictates, it has proven to show, that you lose interest in women who have pursued you. Your prior thread history also indicates, that once a woman is somewhat invested in you, you conjure thoughts of finding a bigger/better deal. That is more descriptive of a user, one who obtains their "fill", and once obtained, they want more elsewhere. Outwardly, your posts depict you as a pleasant, respectful, fun guy. If this transfers into real life, naturally, that will draw attention whereas you don't really need to pursue. But, you've mentioned in other threads, that women don't approach you. So, it's hard to determine what's truthful with your posts. So, I'm not sure society has much to do, with this thread as it pertains to you so-to-speak. That's just my view point, it may be wrong, or it may be right. Some guys do struggle, and that they are truly shy/timid/lack confidence. They tend to come across a bit more reserved overall. So naturally, they draw less attention, or in some instances the same amount of attention, it's just that is is achieved differently. I don't think they have to be overly aggressive, but rather ---> assertive with their wants, desires, needs. Not just in order to "get the girl" but to also, build more confidence in themselves throughout the process.
zengirl Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I generally agree though I don't characterize persistent people as idiots since they're often the same people who make important and positive changes in the world. However, there are degrees of persistence relevant to each dynamic. Right, I was being flip and idiot may be harsh. Still, I think the problem with persisting with someone who's ignored you is that even if you win (and they go out with you), you lose, because you get someone who'd engage in such behavior. Persistence is great, but if someone has demonstrated truly poor behavior, why would you want to date them anyway? My observations of the more aggressive men were mainly in public, in person, where they would persistently pursue a woman in person, not taking no for an answer, but in a flirtatious and often humorous way. That appeared, in my dating pool, to have traction, and it did work for me the same. I have no idea how those men behaved in private or on the phone. I am not saying persistence is always bad --- but it's more chasing someone who'd blatantly ignore phone messages (rude behavior) that I thought sounded idiotic. That wouldn't be the same, as say trying again when you've gotten a "No." That would depend on the kind of boundary you were presented with, etc, etc.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 As your past thread history dictates, it has proven to show, that you lose interest in women who have pursued you. Your prior thread history also indicates, that once a woman is somewhat invested in you, you conjure thoughts of finding a bigger/better deal. That is more descriptive of a user, one who obtains their "fill", and once obtained, they want more elsewhere. Just to clarify...I don't lose necessarily interest just because they pursue me...I lose interest in them because I was never really interested in them to begin with, but rather interested in their interest in me.... So when I realize I don't want to date them long term, I end things, usually a month or two into dating...it just so happens that the women I date get invested very quickly...it's not like I'm stringing them along for 3 years and then GIGSing...isn't a month or so the normal time it takes to decide long term potential...? How does this make me a "user"...? Outwardly, your posts depict you as a pleasant, respectful, fun guy. If this transfers into real life, naturally, that will draw attention whereas you don't really need to pursue. But, you've mentioned in other threads, that women don't approach you. So, it's hard to determine what's truthful with your posts. Being pleasant, respectful, and fun doesn't necessarily translate into getting "approached" by women...and I almost never "pursue" right off the bat...I just build friendly rapport when I meet someone new...and I never really transition out of that into "pursue mode"...
verhrzn Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Putting yourself out there or risking rejection as you put it, pertains directly to confidence. If you are confident, rejection won't be your biggest concern. A lot of guys with confidence issues neglect to realize that their constant focus on rejection and general anxiety could make even a 'successful' date lead to a potentially bad relationship... while you are spending so much time focusing on getting the woman to like you (whether through meek behavior or attempting to over please), you are likely not attempting to see whether she's a good match. There are women who really like a low self esteem guy like this... such men are easy to control and boss around. I'm friends with a few and have seen friends hook up with such women. So yeah, you could end up the 'follower' in a relationship... maybe some guys are satisfied with that, but personally I do not enjoy listening to constant nagging, complaining, and berating... and that is nearly always where that scenario ends up after the lovey dovey courtship is over. I agree with this completely. One of the big issues with me pursuing guys has been that, well, I feel like I can control them. Like, they're doing the things I ask them to because I am making them, not because they genuinely want to. It sounds strange, but I am actually very uncomfortable with the idea that I have such power over someone else. When I end up with a passive guy, I try not to abuse it, but when they are constantly letting you overcome their boundaries, it gets hard to manage yourself. Heck, even that is kind of controlling... you are creating their boundaries FOR them by trying to decide which ones you won't subconsciously cross, even though they let you.
verhrzn Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Just to clarify...I don't lose necessarily interest just because they pursue me...I lose interest in them because I was never really interested in them to begin with, but rather interested in their interest in me.... So when I realize I don't want to date them long term, I end things, usually a month or two into dating...it just so happens that the women I date get invested very quickly...it's not like I'm stringing them along for 3 years and then GIGSing...isn't a month or so the normal time it takes to decide long term potential...? How does this make me a "user"...? THIS is why I don't approach guys or initiate dating anymore. Most of my exes have been exactly like this.... not interested in me, just interested in interest. I gotta tell you, it's pretty awful to be on the other end of this. You might want to start taking a good, long look at your attraction in situations where the girl starts pursuing you. Even a month or two is too long to keep this scenario going. You should know inside a date or two if you like them, or you like their interest.
d'Arthez Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 It sounds strange, but I am actually very uncomfortable with the idea that I have such power over someone else. When I end up with a passive guy, I try not to abuse it, but when they are constantly letting you overcome their boundaries, it gets hard to manage yourself. Heck, even that is kind of controlling... you are creating their boundaries FOR them by trying to decide which ones you won't subconsciously cross, even though they let you. You actually have things figured out much better than you give yourself credit for. V., stop dating / getting involved with doormats. There must be SOME decent male specimens out there, who actually have a spine and a consciousness?
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 THIS is why I don't approach guys or initiate dating anymore. Most of my exes have been exactly like this.... not interested in me, just interested in interest. I gotta tell you, it's pretty awful to be on the other end of this. You might want to start taking a good, long look at your attraction in situations where the girl starts pursuing you. Even a month or two is too long to keep this scenario going. You should know inside a date or two if you like them, or you like their interest. Oh, I know. I've done well to rid myself of this habit in the past year or so.
verhrzn Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 You actually have things figured out much better than you give yourself credit for. V., stop dating / getting involved with doormats. There must be SOME decent male specimens out there, who actually have a spine and a consciousness? Sure. That's why they're married/engaged. 1
Content Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 THIS is why I don't approach guys or initiate dating anymore. Most of my exes have been exactly like this.... not interested in me, just interested in interest. I gotta tell you, it's pretty awful to be on the other end of this. You might want to start taking a good, long look at your attraction in situations where the girl starts pursuing you. Even a month or two is too long to keep this scenario going. You should know inside a date or two if you like them, or you like their interest. Both genders can be strung along by approaching you either take chances in life or watch as life passes you by
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I begin to realize the problem. If you do not intensify a conversation you will not come around as being interesting. In this case all that remains is your looks. This is enough for some women but not for most. And if you don't have the looks in this case you gonna have a hard time wouldn't it be really wierd for a guy to ask a woman he just met extremely personal information? So I usually just do small talk and light personal information. I always thought asking more heavy personal stuff would be something you do on later dates. I will admit I find it extremely difficult to be able to connect to and relate to women. no, this reaction is more than "normal friendly". Oh okay, for me that would be my normal friendly response. uhm ok. This is the main problem (besides the fact that this is a contradiction). If you are looking for a mate you HAVE TO HAVE sexual desire. Consider this from the womans perspective. Why would she want to be together with you if you "stated" (through your behaviour) from minute 1 on that you don't want to have sex with her... Sex is a big deal I don't want to have sex with just any woman and ideally I would want to wait till marriage. Plus I really don't feel comfortable being sexual with anyone even though I have an extremely high libido just simple things like grabbing a girl's butt makes me feel like a terrible person afterwards. What should I do to appear more interested? Talk about sex?
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