Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 the few times a women has actually kept a conversation going with me and smiled at me and not just walked away i was so desperate i tried to take that as a sign but she was just being nice.. I feel the same way to me for some reason just a woman being friendly seems like a sign of attraction but it never is. I remember one time being so desperate a woman was looking at a clock behind me and for some reason I thought she was checking me out so I tried to talk to her but I quickly realised she just wanted the time and she responded quite cooly so I could tell she didn't want to even speak with me and she already had a boyfriend as well so it got pretty awkward:lmao:. I guess I'm just not attractive or charismatic enough for women to want to flirt with me, oh well.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Same here i never get signs a womens interested and trust me i search far and wide for them.. the few times a women has actually kept a conversation going with me and smiled at me and not just walked away i was so desperate i tried to take that as a sign but she was just being nice.. So now anytihng short of a women initiating conversation with me i figure is just her being nice even if she talks to me seems interested in what i say and smiles because ive been burned before And all of this behavior is consistent with what a woman following traditional gender roles would do in the same situation...waiting for the guy to show signs of interest... It sucks beign with him i get ignored enough but getting ignored while your friend has women all over him gets me even more down and depressed Heh, welcome to my friend. All my male friends are better looking than I am...so going out with them can often be hit or miss for me...
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Aggressive in that you will make your interest for her known before she makes her interest in you known. Essentially, her interest level is irrelevant because you act solely on your interest level. So it doesn't matter if you are terrible at determining a girl's attraction for you. If YOU are attracted, you will act...simple as that. So keep doing what I'm doing?
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 So keep doing what I'm doing? Well, do you take the initiative and act upon that interest and ask her out before you're sure that she's interested?
AD1980 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 And all of this behavior is consistent with what a woman following traditional gender roles would do in the same situation...waiting for the guy to show signs of interest... Heh, welcome to my friend. All my male friends are better looking than I am...so going out with them can often be hit or miss for me... I hear you but its just something i cant get over..I get parlayzed by fear when it comes to approaching random women.. Sorry you have really good looking friends as well:laugh: The way women react around my friend makes me want to approach even less because i learned if a womens extremely attracted to you shell either aproach or of you approach shell let it be known pretty well that shes interrsted if she knows you're interested .. So im pretty certain apathy or shyness from a women is just apathy not fear of you saying no and that shes really attracted to me deepdown but afraid to show it.. If a attratcive man approaches you can see with your eyes the way women react that shes interested
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 That's a good distinction to delineate - proactive assertiveness. My process as a young man was pretty simple: Meet, get to know in the superficial sense, determine relationship status and, if feeling attraction from events and the lady being single, asking her out. The getting to know and relationship status parts became more important after the first MW, whom was creative with the truth about her being M. I don't ever recall being overtly aware of a woman's interest prior, and I'm pretty sensitive to such matters and am rarely surprised by anything of that nature. To wit, I've been extremely sensitive to the approaches of MW's, who have shown overt interest for reasons known and unknown, even when other people appear to be oblivious. Whether genuine or an ego feed, I sense it. It's there. Never has been with the single iterations that I've met, so far. I'll add it to the list Program note relevant to thread: Do 'real' men talk about such matters?
SJC2008 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) In my last thread of the evening...traditional gender roles dictate that men are the pursuers while women are the pursued...and I have realized that in dating, I behave like a woman in that I am so passive that I subconsciously expect women to pursue me...most likely due to low self-esteem and/or lack of "confidence," as it were...out of all my past dating experiences, the good majority have featured a woman who was the initial aggressor... I have a feeling that the guys who struggle here have this same issue...they don't realize how aggressive you actually have to be and are expected to be...and they just sit back and hope some girl will come to them...which goes against what society expects from men...no wonder they can't get dates... Thoughts...? I'd first stop blaming everything on confidence/insecurity. It's good to be self aware as I have confidence/insecurity issues myself but have worked on them and have improved! The biggest hurdle is that many women just don't give signs thus you having to totally put yourself out there. Case in point, my first ever number pulled from a complete stranger was a little more than a year ago. She came into the store for a quote, I was immediately attracted to her. We were busy so I gave her a ride to her appts and picked her up when her car was done. I had that rare insta srpung feeling or whatever you wanna call it! Anyway, not once did we flirt or did she give any signs or hints. We had regular convo with no flirting or any signs from her that she may be interested. When I cashed her out I asked her if I could call her some time and she said yeah that's fine. We had a date, I was so shy when she asked me what I like to do I put my head down lol! What I have started to tell myself is that if I ever want to meet someone I just gotta put myself out there. Nature selected me to be a man and I can either go with it or run and hide. No it's not easy and it will never be but sooner or later you will get desensitized to the nerves and possible rejection. I'm getting a little better and sometimes a rejection can be gratifying. The other day I asked out an attracitve americanized middle eastern woman in her mid 20's and she said she had a bf but she smiled like she won the lottery and that felt really good. Edited June 7, 2012 by SJC2008 left something out 1
wheream_i Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I have a friend who is passive and expect women to make the move with him. He can easily become friends with them or he gets a crush on a girl, but he will never ever make a move. I think that's probably why he prefers older women...because they do tend to be a little more forward/assertive. He would likely become a follower in the relationship and not the leader. He also has low self-esteem in himself and is not an aggressive nor assertive person. Hmmm, I very much prefer women my age or older than myself (I'm 33). But to be quite honest, it has absolutely nothing to do with being a follower in a relationship. I am very much the assertive type. So I wouldn't put too much into that as far as a woman's age goes.
ThingsAreComplicated Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) I was reluctant to answer at all but... Quote of the day: "What I get/have gotten from silence is silence." Are you kidding me? ALL human relationships are based on mutual interest in some way, be it hobbies, work, love, sex, whatever. And SOMEONE ALWAYS has to be the one initiating something. So if you initiate and get a response -> mutual interest. If you initiate and get no response -> he/she not interested. If he/she initiates and you don't respond -> you are not interested. If there is only silence -> no interest whatsoever. This is so basic that I just felt awkward to write it but maybe it helps. If you don't realize the generality of the above you also won't be able to apply it when "dating woman in a romantic interest". If you have a date and YOU are not really interested in HER but only in a RANDOM VAGINA crossing your way or giving you the "honor" of spending an evening with a women you should still reject her as it will lead to nowhere. If you don't you are desperate or playing, both suck (remember that the other person also has FEELINGS). One more thing about "friendzoned" (one of the greatest word creations ever): typically it is claimed the men get friendzoned after 2-5 dates if they did not do whatever (kiss, sex, bla). This is the biggest BS ever. The real reason that many women, despite looking hot and whatever, are also DESPERATE in getting into a relationship because they also have feelings and they typically feel LONELY. They often show the "hey I have the pussy I make the rules and I can have everyone anyway" attitude but this is fake _most_ of the time. Deep inside they want a companion at their side. So friendzoning means: wow he is cool and stuff but he obviously is not interested in me, I need to move on. Aggressiveness is not needed at all. State your intentions in some way so you don't get "friendzoned", make her feel comfortable and show that you are really interested in HER. Things will go as they should... back in the day things were easier: "my place or your place?" Edited June 7, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Well, do you take the initiative and act upon that interest and ask her out before you're sure that she's interested? Well sort of, I do always take the initative as I don't expect women to actually ask me out, but at the same time I try to at least find a shred of possible attraction to me (my mind unfortunately will make it up for me), and I try to learn a little about her before asking her out. I do find it difficult to choose a woman to ask out they are generally cold and distant so I try to at least find a woman acting somewhat friendly and its also not like I know everything about every woman I meet so I don't anything about them so I can't really judge too much about their personalities and when it comes to physical appearances my standards are a bit lower than most guys so I can walk into a random room full of people and almost 80% of the women seem attractive on some level.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Program note relevant to thread: Do 'real' men talk about such matters? Yes. It's the ones who are uncomfortable with communicating such matters who would argue that it's "unmanly."
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Wanting a man to communicate about such matters isn't the same as being attracted to a man who does 2
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) This thread is a prime example that many people don't just have problems with "getting a woman" but participating in social life at all... Quote of the day: "What I get/have gotten from silence is silence." Are you kidding me?The quoted text was in response to a prior member's post regarding getting attention from silence; to wit, women pursuing him. In an equivalent dynamic, comparatively, I received none, so was relating that information. Edited June 7, 2012 by a LoveShack.org Moderator
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Some of you mentioned showing women you are interested how exactly do you do that? I myself just talk to her, ask her out and occassionally compliment her then again I'm always rejected before dating ever even starts and in the rare case a date does happen it doesn't move beyond the 2nd date.
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Some of you mentioned showing women you are interested how exactly do you do that?First, a question: In a typical month, how many women would you say you meet that you are 'interested' in? As an example, in my locale, I rarely meet women I'm interested in, partly because most are married. It's so rare that I posted a journal about the last one but, alas, she had remarried before I was divorced. That's pretty typical. How does it go for you?
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 First, a question: In a typical month, how many women would you say you meet that you are 'interested' in? As an example, in my locale, I rarely meet women I'm interested in, partly because most are married. It's so rare that I posted a journal about the last one but, alas, she had remarried before I was divorced. That's pretty typical. How does it go for you? It depends on how you define "interested in" and "meet". I guess if you are asking what I think you are asking probably about 2-5 women a month that I could be seriously interested in after learning a little about them, but in the pure attraction sense I don't know a number so I'll just say a ton, for me I can walk into a random room full of people and 80% of the women there will seem at least somewhat attractive.
ThingsAreComplicated Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Basically (this sounds stupid) YOU need to have a genuine interest in HER. Her personality, her appearance, her sense of humor, her style of writing text messages and so on. If you are sitting there on your date and all you think is "jesus that's some kind of BS but I'll hang around anyway maybe I can get her laid at some time later because she is somewhat hot", forget about it (or play which sucks). Showing interest is simple: be available, be caring, listen to what she says, have a good time, have good conversations, don't care too much about dating "rules" ("don't call x days after the date" -> screw it, call her if you WANT), tell her about yourself (trust). Just "talking" is not enough. You need to _really_ get to know the person behind the facade. Don't just "talk" about weather, sports, job and other typical smalltalk themes. Ask her about friendships, family, goals, attitudes, sexuality and so on. THEN you can decide whether or not this woman is a potential mate for you and vice versa. "occassionally compliment" not meant to be rude but this sounds like the typical mechanical dating advice of the 21st century. Compliment only if you really mean it. EVERY WOMAN ON THIS GLOBE loves being complimented because most of them are insecure (about 2 pounds overweight, small tits and nonsense like this). But you have to go with the flow and I'll give you an example. You meet a girl on a first date. She walks up to you, gives you a kiss on the cheek and says "hey you smell good". This is as good as it gets. Your reply? None! Smile and walk her inside the restaurant or whatever activity you planned. Bad reply: "yeah you too". Or "wow and you look beautiful" or whatever. Even if you would really mean it and she is cute, don't do it. If she is really that beautiful she heard the phrase like 20 trillion times before. Assume you had a good first date. You gonna write some text messages in the following days. Eventually she will have a bad day at work. In the evening she writes you a text that she'd like to talk to you. Your problem: you need to get up early because you have a hard working day ahead. Obviously, as you GENUINELY CARE about her feelings, you will call anyway. You talk and talk and time passes. Your sleep time reduces to like 5 hours and you have to work 10 hours next day. So you are completely wrecked the next day and text her like "wow I'm really tired...". She might reply "oh I'm sorry that's probably just because I held you away from catching the hay early ". Bad reply: "yeah" or "next time I can't talk to you for such a long time". Good reply: "well you have to set priorities..." THIS is the kind of compliments that establish closeness to a person and make her special. But again, ONLY SAY IT IF YOU REALLY MEAN IT. 1
wheream_i Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Well, do you take the initiative and act upon that interest and ask her out before you're sure that she's interested? If I understand the question correctly, you're wanting to know if you should ask her out before she even gives you the go ahead? Sure, why not? Believe it or not, women play games too. If she's giving the "too cool for school" or "too pretty for you" vibe, then even better. Bring her down to ground level. She might just say yes because you cut through her bullsh*t. Now, if she's got her face buried in her phone, then move on. I've gone "in for the kill" with women that I thought I had it in the bag, those that were being super nice and attentive but then been turned down. I don't take it personally. I say, "well it never hurts to ask. You're a beautiful woman and it was nice to meet you." I wouldn't worry too much about signals she is or isn't giving you if you're already engaged in some kind of conversation where it's just the two of you. 1
ThingsAreComplicated Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Now, if she's got her face buried in her phone, then move on. quote to emphasize Every "nice guy" in this forum who has trouble with women should just do this at least once.
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 It depends on how you define "interested in" and "meet" Meet = encounter in life. Pumping gas next to you. Ahead of you in line at grocery store. Eyes meet while stopped at traffic light. Bla, bla. Interested in = a random disinterested glance becomes a 'hmm', second look. No longer is the person just a random human being encountered. She becomes more. It doesn't have to be earth-shattering, life-altering. Just more than random. I recall, in my younger years, beyond 'more than random', seeing typical signals like body language, smiling, hair tossing, a bit of flirting, etc as proactive or returned interest, and that did get me into a bit of trouble, especially delineating authentic interest from 'situational', or ersatz, interest. This is where the less careful, more aggressive men shine. They escalate and push boundaries; move for the touch, the sexual comment, etc. They're in the moment and don't really care where or what the moment leads to and leave it to the woman to define her boundaries. I saw the merit to that approach and tried it for awhile with pretty good success, except those women turned out to be incompatible for a relationship, or married. Those results, combined with 'forcing' a different than natural style, eventually caused me to abandon that approach and try something else, essentially fishing in a different pond than my local dating pool. My LTR's and M resulted from those changes, augmented by a compromise between my natural style and what I observed to 'work' in general. An evolution of sorts. The thread I commonly observe in such postings as the OP's is that, and I'm speaking from experience here, it sounds like first/initial/introductory contact is addressed at the human level as opposed to the sexual level. Think about that. What vibe are you sending out. Be honest about that. It's often different in the moment than when thinking and posting about it dispassionately here on LS. Vibe is very important with women. It can make or break a man romantically. If a man is behaving/giving a vibe like a girlfriend with a penis, the lady is going to feel that way about him.
wordrock Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I'd first stop blaming everything on confidence/insecurity. It's good to be self aware as I have confidence/insecurity issues myself but have worked on them and have improved! ... The biggest hurdle is that many women just don't give signs thus you having to totally put yourself out there. ... What I have started to tell myself is that if I ever want to meet someone I just gotta put myself out there. Nature selected me to be a man and I can either go with it or run and hide. No it's not easy and it will never be but sooner or later you will get desensitized to the nerves and possible rejection. Putting yourself out there or risking rejection as you put it, pertains directly to confidence. If you are confident, rejection won't be your biggest concern. A lot of guys with confidence issues neglect to realize that their constant focus on rejection and general anxiety could make even a 'successful' date lead to a potentially bad relationship... while you are spending so much time focusing on getting the woman to like you (whether through meek behavior or attempting to over please), you are likely not attempting to see whether she's a good match. There are women who really like a low self esteem guy like this... such men are easy to control and boss around. I'm friends with a few and have seen friends hook up with such women. So yeah, you could end up the 'follower' in a relationship... maybe some guys are satisfied with that, but personally I do not enjoy listening to constant nagging, complaining, and berating... and that is nearly always where that scenario ends up after the lovey dovey courtship is over. Not saying non confident men shouldn't date, but the odds are stacked against you... finding a 'nice' gal who can respect you even though you can't look her in the eyes is probably akin to winning lotto. That can get you by in grade school when everyone is inexperienced and low on hormones, but it's just not going to cut it with mature women.
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Basically (this sounds stupid) YOU need to have a genuine interest in HER. Her personality, her appearance, her sense of humor, her style of writing text messages and so on. If you are sitting there on your date and all you think is "jesus that's some kind of BS but I'll hang around anyway maybe I can get her laid at some time later because she is somewhat hot", forget about it (or play which sucks). Showing interest is simple: be available, be caring, listen to what she says, have a good time, have good conversations, don't care too much about dating "rules" ("don't call x days after the date" -> screw it, call her if you WANT), tell her about yourself (trust). Just "talking" is not enough. You need to _really_ get to know the person behind the facade. Don't just "talk" about weather, sports, job and other typical smalltalk themes. Ask her about friendships, family, goals, attitudes, sexuality and so on. THEN you can decide whether or not this woman is a potential mate for you and vice versa. Good points you have made but I do have some questions. You mention being totally interested in every piece of her personality and person, what do you mean by this? If by interested you mean curious to know about her then yes I do want to learn everything I can. I mainly engage in small talk and ask a few personal questions but nothing too deep or sexual in any fashion for someone I just met. As for "be available, be caring, listen to what she says.." I guess that means I'm already showing interest as this is what I normally do automatically. You meet a girl on a first date. She walks up to you, gives you a kiss on the cheek and says "hey you smell good". This is as good as it gets. Your reply? None! Smile and walk her inside the restaurant or whatever activity you planned. Bad reply: "yeah you too". Or "wow and you look beautiful" or whatever. Even if you would really mean it and she is cute, don't do it. If she is really that beautiful she heard the phrase like 20 trillion times before. While you make a good point here, I honestly can't really relate to that situation I have never met a woman that acted that affectionate toward me simple compliments like that are rare and touching of any kind whatsoever basically non-existant though I guess I get what you mean don't compliment too much. Good reply: "well you have to set priorities..." THIS is the kind of compliments that establish closeness to a person and make her special. But again, ONLY SAY IT IF YOU REALLY MEAN IT. Never been in this situation but that sounds like a normal friendly and caring response.
Eternal Sunshine Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Absolutely, I need a man to be the aggressor. I assume if he isn't making the move, he is just not that into me. This has been backed by experience. I do however, give strong signals of interest and then ball is in his court with actually moving things forward. I have huge respect for guys that put themselves out there.
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Meet = encounter in life. Pumping gas next to you. Ahead of you in line at grocery store. Eyes meet while stopped at traffic light. Bla, bla. Interested in = a random disinterested glance becomes a 'hmm', second look. No longer is the person just a random human being encountered. She becomes more. It doesn't have to be earth-shattering, life-altering. Just more than random. In that case I guess I meet quite a few women I'm interested in on a regular basis. The thread I commonly observe in such postings as the OP's is that, and I'm speaking from experience here, it sounds like first/initial/introductory contact is addressed at the human level as opposed to the sexual level. Think about that. What vibe are you sending out. Be honest about that. It's often different in the moment than when thinking and posting about it dispassionately here on LS. Vibe is very important with women. It can make or break a man romantically. If a man is behaving/giving a vibe like a girlfriend with a penis, the lady is going to feel that way about him. As for a vibe I really don't get that. I guess I don't have much of a sexual vibe about me its not like I ever talk about sex in anyway shape or form nor do I touch women in any way that could be considered sexual. I don't feel comfortable at all doing that, I have a strong feeling that she wouldn't be comfortable as well especially knowing me I'll royally screw up and it'll just become wierd and creepy, plus its not like I'm actually seeking to have sex, though I do think about it.
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