USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 In my last thread of the evening...traditional gender roles dictate that men are the pursuers while women are the pursued...and I have realized that in dating, I behave like a woman in that I am so passive that I subconsciously expect women to pursue me...most likely due to low self-esteem and/or lack of "confidence," as it were...out of all my past dating experiences, the good majority have featured a woman who was the initial aggressor... I have a feeling that the guys who struggle here have this same issue...they don't realize how aggressive you actually have to be and are expected to be...and they just sit back and hope some girl will come to them...which goes against what society expects from men...no wonder they can't get dates... Thoughts...? 1
monkey00 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I have a friend who is passive and expect women to make the move with him. He can easily become friends with them or he gets a crush on a girl, but he will never ever make a move. I think that's probably why he prefers older women...because they do tend to be a little more forward/assertive. He would likely become a follower in the relationship and not the leader. He also has low self-esteem in himself and is not an aggressive nor assertive person. As much advice as me or other friends give to him, it's who he is and his nature. He is on an OLD site but never does anything and waits for people to message him. He does admit that he's a girl trapped in a guy's body sometimes. Anyway OP that is true. Society says men are the pursuers and women are the pursued (for the most part). I also think instinctually from years of evolution, is that if a guy is not assertive/aggressive enough with a woman and is luke warm then he's probably not that into her and she gets this vibe and reacts in that manner. Confidence comes with age and for some never. I was a very shy/passive guy when I was younger and never understood why I had a hard time with women. It's something that's learned with trial and error and experience. I followed this simple rule to change as a person for the better 'fake it till you make it', it's true that practice makes better if not perfect. Though I still fail with women these days, but I realized I do a lot better now than I did when I was younger. Attraction can't be forced, but the key is to work on yourself first before anything else.
Seneca Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Well women actually ask me out more than I would ask them out. So I don't really bother with pursuing anymore.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 I have a friend who is passive and expect women to make the move with him. He can easily become friends with them or he gets a crush on a girl, but he will never ever make a move. I think that's probably why he prefers older women...because they do tend to be a little more forward/assertive. He would likely become a follower in the relationship and not the leader. He also has low self-esteem in himself and is not an aggressive nor assertive person. As much advice as me or other friends give to him, it's who he is and his nature. He is on an OLD site but never does anything and waits for people to message him. He does admit that he's a girl trapped in a guy's body sometimes. Hahah, the bolded above describes me to a T... Anyway OP that is true. Society says men are the pursuers and women are the pursued (for the most part). I also think instinctually from years of evolution, is that if a guy is not assertive/aggressive enough with a woman and is luke warm then he's probably not that into her and she gets this vibe and reacts in that manner. And I'm often afraid this is the case...
monkey00 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Heh, well honestly there's nothing wrong with being the passive person in a relationship and having a woman be the aggressor. There are lots of happy and successful relationships where this is the case. I guess as long as one doesn't turn into a doormat...
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Heh, well honestly there's nothing wrong with being the passive person in a relationship and having a woman be the aggressor. Well, for me personally, the passivity ends after interest is established...
monkey00 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Well, for me personally, the passivity ends after interest is established... I think that's probably the #1 obstacle most people face. The ice-breaker or making the first move is always the toughest. But at least once it's done, you'll know what the results are. Much better than always wondering 'what if'. 1
SJC2008 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Do you mean aggressive as in aking for dates or aggressive in pursuing after a date has been established? If it's the later, one of my problems was and still somewhat is insecurity and I have also learned women can be very subtle. I don't like walking on egg shells or games. I don't like aggressive woman but the kind who let me pursue and giving enough signs to feel ok about doing so. Don't send me out there blind!
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Do you mean aggressive as in aking for dates or aggressive in pursuing after a date has been established? Aggressive in showing interest and acting upon said interest. So essentially asking for dates.
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 IME, it's a matter of degrees, relevant to local dating dynamics. Example: One can ask ladies out on dates but if the competition aggressively and repeatedly 'doesn't take no for an answer', then women become used to that methodology and come to view less aggressive methods as non-interest. I recall hearing that as a direct critique of my dating style 20 or so years ago. 'Go after what you want and don't take no for an answer'. The newer version is 'always push boundaries'. Since my emotional style isn't up to that kind of activity and I don't view the local ladies as people to disrespect no's from nor have their boundaries overtly pushed, I choose not to play anymore. I found by going to other countries which have different dating dynamics I had better success with more compatible styles of interaction. It was that dynamic which originally, according to her words, impelled my exW to accept my perhaps less than aggressive style as valid and attractive, or perhaps she had other, unknown reasons, IDK. She did make mention of the 'competition' as being one part of the attraction process. And so it goes.
Feelin Frisky Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 There really aren't any rules set in stone. Each person is unique. I have been in relationships where whenever I initiated the chick started to evade but if I played it as if I were indifferent she'd pursue me. Sometimes there might be a lull and I'd think hey maybe she's looking for me to initiate and I would but once that little prompt worked it had to go back to me appearing indifferent. I think this is part of that "bad boy" dynamic versus Mr. Nice who is always trying to be thoughtful--it's too easy and some women quickly feel smothered and WANT something else. It's a silly thing when you think about it but it is so true in reality. I'd much prefer just coming to an understanding where the game isn't necessary but if that can happen at all it comes after the game has been played for a while and there is some sense of mutual commitment to a serious relationship. 1
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 She did make mention of the 'competition' as being one part of the attraction process. And I just don't understand this. My thought process is that when I first meet a woman, she has done absolutely nothing to rate my pursuance (is this even a word...?) of her. So barring merely skin-deep attraction, there is nothing for me to actually be interested in, until I get to know her better. And so a woman presumes my initial approach as non-interest and moves on to someone who showers her with the attention she feels entitled to...? One thing I can't stand is a woman who expects men to be "compete" for her simply because she's a woman and offers nothing else. 1
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I have been in relationships where whenever I initiated the chick started to evade but if I played it as if I were indifferent she'd pursue me. I haven't had that experience yet, but there are hopefully 20-30 years of life left to experience it. What I get/have gotten from silence is silence. The only exception is my best friend (male), who will check up on me if he hasn't heard from me. We do that with each other. Women? Fuggetaboutit, at least in my generation and locale.
thatone Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 there are a lot more ways that men start to behave like women, particularly younger men. i chalk it up to growing up with single mothers.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 What I get/have gotten from silence is silence. And this is exactly how I would respond to silence directed at me, so I expect nothing more...
AD1980 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Im the same way im just a passive laid back person in general who when i get to know someobdy i can open up but im not good at initiating conversations/relationships with strangers or being outgoing to strangers right away.. I wish i was more attratcive so id be approached and broken out of the shell so a girl can know the rela me but im too damn scared to approach:p
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I have a feeling that the guys who struggle here have this same issue...they don't realize how aggressive you actually have to be and are expected to be...and they just sit back and hope some girl will come to them...which goes against what society expects from men...no wonder they can't get dates... Thoughts...? I was wondering how aggressive are you talking? While I believe women will never pursue me (it hasn't happened yet so why should it ever happen?) I'll admit I'm not super-aggressive when it comes to pursuing women. I do actually muster up the courage to actually ask out a woman but when I'm inevitably rejected I'm not going to keep pursuing, I'm done. I do notice I'm absolutely terrible in finding out if a girl is attracted to me (they NEVER are), unfortunately I never see any signs of flirting from any women I come across and when I do think a woman may be flirting with me it's always just her being normal and friendly and I'm making up things in my head or she's just playing. 1
AD1980 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 And I just don't understand this. My thought process is that when I first meet a woman, she has done absolutely nothing to rate my pursuance (is this even a word...?) of her. So barring merely skin-deep attraction, there is nothing for me to actually be interested in, until I get to know her better. And so a woman presumes my initial approach as non-interest and moves on to someone who showers her with the attention she feels entitled to...? One thing I can't stand is a woman who expects men to be "compete" for her simply because she's a woman and offers nothing else. Same exact way i feel..in the begining it should be mutual and moved at the same pace neither side should have to put a person on a pedestal that they hardly know..The courtign process makes it seem like a man has to prove himself to the women before anything else and a womens feelings and ego is more precious or important then a Man's.. 1
AD1980 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I do notice I'm absolutely terrible in finding out if a girl is attracted to me (they NEVER are), unfortunately I never see any signs of flirting from any women I come across and when I do think a woman may be flirting with me it's always just her being normal and friendly and I'm making up things in my head or she's just playing. Same here i never get signs a womens interested and trust me i search far and wide for them.. the few times a women has actually kept a conversation going with me and smiled at me and not just walked away i was so desperate i tried to take that as a sign but she was just being nice.. So now anytihng short of a women initiating conversation with me i figure is just her being nice even if she talks to me seems interested in what i say and smiles because ive been burned before 1
Necris Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 One other thing, I have heard women have actually approached and pursued men but does this happen often, do regular guys ever experience this or do only unusally attractive, charismatic or wealthy men experience this?
carhill Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 One thing I can't stand is a woman who expects men to be "compete" for her simply because she's a woman and offers nothing else. To clarify, regarding the 'competition' part, exW related her attraction level rose as a result of being in competition with other women (I had just returned from one of my trips to visit one) for my attentions. Using LS terminology, womanizing a bit and having a long-distance relationship with an attractive lady provided social proof. It apparently was one of the few times over the decades when I stood out locally, at least to a few women anyway. On the quoted statement, I generally agree. I compete enough with men every day. It's nice to get away from them, even in the circumstantial sense.
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 To clarify, regarding the 'competition' part, exW related her attraction level rose as a result of being in competition with other women (I had just returned from one of my trips to visit one) for my attentions. Using LS terminology, womanizing a bit and having a long-distance relationship with an attractive lady provided social proof. It apparently was one of the few times over the decades when I stood out locally, at least to a few women anyway. Ah, got it...
AD1980 Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 One other thing, I have heard women have actually approached and pursued men but does this happen often, do regular guys ever experience this or do only unusally attractive, charismatic or wealthy men experience this? My friend whos pretty good looking gets hit on a lot..Hes charismatic and makes around two hundred grand a year but they dont know this before they approach him so they go mostly by his looks.. It sucks beign with him i get ignored enough but getting ignored while your friend has women all over him gets me even more down and depressed
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Im the same way im just a passive laid back person in general who when i get to know someobdy i can open up but im not good at initiating conversations/relationships with strangers or being outgoing to strangers right away.. I wish i was more attratcive so id be approached and broken out of the shell so a girl can know the rela me but im too damn scared to approach:p Well, this is just a product of modern society encouraging men with romantic intentions to approach a woman full steam ahead so that there is no ambiguity as to his interest. I know I am certainly guilty of peddling this mentality...and I'm slowly realizing that it isn't the way that I would personally do things...
Author USMCHokie Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 I was wondering how aggressive are you talking? While I believe women will never pursue me (it hasn't happened yet so why should it ever happen?) I'll admit I'm not super-aggressive when it comes to pursuing women. I do actually muster up the courage to actually ask out a woman but when I'm inevitably rejected I'm not going to keep pursuing, I'm done. I do notice I'm absolutely terrible in finding out if a girl is attracted to me (they NEVER are), unfortunately I never see any signs of flirting from any women I come across and when I do think a woman may be flirting with me it's always just her being normal and friendly and I'm making up things in my head or she's just playing. Aggressive in that you will make your interest for her known before she makes her interest in you known. Essentially, her interest level is irrelevant because you act solely on your interest level. So it doesn't matter if you are terrible at determining a girl's attraction for you. If YOU are attracted, you will act...simple as that.
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