2sure Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 [QUOTE=fortyninethousand322;4041417]There are people who are allergic to dogs or even specific kinds of dog dander. There are certain dogs that my brother can't (or shouldn't) be around for long periods when indoors. It happens. Oh, I know! And truly I am sorry for them - especially if they have kids that want a dog. But as long as they Like dogs , they are ok in my book.
serial muse Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 There are people who are allergic to dogs or even specific kinds of dog dander. There are certain dogs that my brother can't (or shouldn't) be around for long periods when indoors. It happens. True. Similarly, I'm extremely allergic to cats; if a guy I was interested in had a cat and wouldn't want to give it up, I would understand, but it would be a dealbreaker for me. Just don't want to sign up for the misery.
Mme. Chaucer Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Just for fun, I did use Google (the shame!) to find scientific studies specifically linking genetics with behavior in dogs, including aggression. There are many. Here are just a few recent ones: Differential gene expression in brain tissues of aggressive and non-aggressive dogs Canine aggression and genetic control http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1601-183X.2010.00568.x/asset/j.1601-183X.2010.00568.x.pdf;jsessionid=EC7AB6236974B2DF26C50CCB90DDA709.d01t04?v=1&t=h35zjams&22a05bc0&systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+on+9+June+from+10%3A00-12%3A00+BST+%2805%3A00-07%3A00+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance There is also a known genetic predisposition for aggression in human beings. Just for the record.
Author iris219 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Your boyfriend's dog: It's a liability to own it, true. But it's a bigger liability to re-home it. If his dog hurt his new owner (or someone else) the new owner could sue him claiming that your boyfriend didn't properly communicate the dogs issues. Sorta like claiming you were sold a gun without any warning labels. For the record, re-homing the dog isn't the only option. You might actually want to consult a certified behavior consultant. ccpdt.org allows you to search for them by zip code. Worst case scenario is that the dog be kept separated for their lives. This isn't as bad as it sounds. I have a friend who has two dogs that want to kill each other. They have a nice system of tethers and fencing in places that keeps both dogs safe and the home relatively peaceful. The dog is definitely a liability. That's why it would be given to his uncle who WANTS the dog. He lives alone in a rural part of the state and is lonely. I can't understand why my ex is being so stubborn. He keeps saying his uncle shouldn't have to take on the responsibility of having a dangerous dog. True, but his uncle is offering and the dog is fine if it's kept in the house or yard. Keeping the dogs separated is not an option. My scenario is different from your friend's. There are not two dogs that want to kill each other. There is one dog that wants to kill and one that wants nothing to do with a dog fight. My dog is a small-medium sweet, goofy mutt. He is no match for a pit and wouldn't stand a chance if attacked. I would never put him a situation where he could be harmed. I'm not a trainer, but one of my close friends is; she was just mentioning this very thing to me the other day about pit bulls - that the issue isn't that they're aggressive, but that they're so eager to please their masters and will do anything asked of them. But I'm no expert on dogs, and I see that the discussion on pits has moved waaaaayyyy beyond my realm of knowledge, so I should probably stay out of this part of the discussion. Anyway, back to topic. Iris, it sounds like the relationship isn't ideal for you in other ways. It's a tough situation, and I think it's lovely that you're sensitive to the love your ex has for his dog. But he (your ex) also sounds like he is immature, when it comes to adult relationships, and maybe that's not really about the dog at all. The dog is just a convenient excuse to keep you at arm's length. Do you really want to sign up for more of that from this guy? Edited to add: I didn't answer the original question. I think I'd choose the person over the dog. But I don't have a dog (I want one badly but housing will not permit) so maybe it's too easy for me to say that. I have considered the bolded, but when I suggested we live separately, he refused. He seems to genuinely want to move the relationship forward, unless he's just all talk at this point. I don't know what to do at this point. We go around in circles when we discuss the topic and the discussion is so draining; I'm sick of talking about it and not solving anything. Does it sound like I should just give up and move on? I’m so frustrated.
CarboniteCammy Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 (edited) First off, as a crazy dog lady who also does dog sports like Mme Chaucer, I can tell you that animal aggression (prey drive) and human aggression are NOT the same thing in a dog's brain. They're just not. Some lines of German Shepherd, for example, the DDR sheps are specifically bred to have a high fight drive, but low prey drive. Pit bulls are the opposite, they have a high prey drive, but a very low fight drive when it comes to humans. Pitbulls make lously PPD (personal protection) dogs for the most part, and are generally NOT human aggressive although they can be incredibly dog aggressive. So, maybe you'd want to do some research and ask someone before making random assumptions about what can actually be complex behavior questions. Secondly, anyone who tells someone to give up their dog because it's aggressive towards other dogs sucks at life. Sorry, but you do. For those of us that HAVE dogs, hearing that makes us think you're soulless. If you have cats, then you probably are soulless. hahahaha. ;-) Dog aggression NOT generally something you can train out, although like certain types of resource guarding, it is something you can sometimes manage. Not in EVERY situation, but in some situations you can even make progress IF You have the right trainer and IF you're willing to put in the time, effort and money. I'd say find someone that is able to recognize what kind of threshold the dog has for putting up with other dogs and uses ONLY positive reinforcement to increase that threshold. Oh, and by that I *don't* mean positive punishment. I mean reward based training that does not include using a shock collar, prong collar, beating the dog, etc. :-P Now that all that BS is out of the way, OP, I'm sorry that the dude chose his dog over you. If I had someone telling me that I had to get rid of my dogs or that I had to stop showing and doing agility and herding with my dogs, I'd tell them to go F themselves. The dogs were there long before and they'll be there long after. Sorry, that's just how it is. Asking him to let his dog live in the country just so that you can move in with him is not really the way I personally would have handled the situation. Then again, I'm fairly dog saavy and we'd figure out how to crate and rotate and get a behaviorist in there to see what could be worked out had I been in your situation. Personal rant- I KNOW that people, most people, know *very* precious little about dogs, and especially about pitbulls. I don't even *HAVE* pitbulls, and I find myself advocating for responsible ownership. It truly drives me crazy when people don't want to put the effort in to dogs and expect for centuries of breeding to suddenly just fall away because it doesn't jive with what *you* expect. For real. That's like people who rehome border collies because they have too much energy and herd everything... come on, people. Get a grip. Edited June 7, 2012 by CarboniteCammy 1
xxoo Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I have considered the bolded, but when I suggested we live separately, he refused. He seems to genuinely want to move the relationship forward, unless he's just all talk at this point. I don't know what to do at this point. We go around in circles when we discuss the topic and the discussion is so draining; I'm sick of talking about it and not solving anything. Does it sound like I should just give up and move on? I’m so frustrated. What does he want? Does he want you to get rid of your dog, and move in with him? Even if you were agreeable to that, it seems like a shortsighted solution since he is already talking about (maybe just to appease you) making decisions about his dog when it is time to have children. If he wants to be a couple, wants you to live with him, wants his dog to have the run of the house, and wants YOU to get rid of your harmless dog, then this is not really about the dog. He doesn't sound very motivated to make this work, and only wants you if you fit neatly into his life, no changes. 1
Author iris219 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 What does he want? Does he want you to get rid of your dog, and move in with him? Even if you were agreeable to that, it seems like a shortsighted solution since he is already talking about (maybe just to appease you) making decisions about his dog when it is time to have children. If he wants to be a couple, wants you to live with him, wants his dog to have the run of the house, and wants YOU to get rid of your harmless dog, then this is not really about the dog. He doesn't sound very motivated to make this work, and only wants you if you fit neatly into his life, no changes. Yes, he wants the bolded. I think I understand why he says the children issue is too premature to discuss right now. All this is speculation, but I'm beginning to think that if I got rid of my dog, moved in with him, and we did decided to have children, he would try to argue that his dog would be fine around children. Maybe it would be. The dog isn't people aggressive (though he does play rough), but I'm not willing to take any chances when comes to the safety of a child. We need to sit down and really resolve this issue--soon. Unfortunately, it's difficult to get him to discuss issues when I want to. I usually have to wait until he's ready and initiates the discussion; otherwise, he shuts down or tells me what bad timing I have and that he can't focus on work (his main priority) while I'm complicating his life with conflict. Yeah, maybe we do have issues beyond the dog issue. Friends tell me I should be thankful for the dog issue, so that we can't easily get back together.
xxoo Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I usually have to wait until he's ready and initiates the discussion; otherwis, he shuts down or tells me what bad timing I have and that he can't focus on work (his main priority) while I'm complicating his life with conflict. Yikes. Don't marry this guy! 1
maybealone Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Yeah, maybe we do have issues beyond the dog issue. Friends tell me I should be thankful for the dog issue, so that we can't easily get back together. Your friends may be right.
Mme. Chaucer Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Truly, this dog issue is a canary issue, really, as Carhill said. The way this man is approaching the dog situation really speaks volumes about how he wants his life to be organized and the way other people (you) are supposed to fit into it. Please remember why this relationship did not work in the first place. It wasn't because of dogs. 3
Janesays Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 First off, it makes me happy that you linked a study that uses my study as a source. Differential gene expression in brain tissues of aggressive and non-aggressive dogs First off, this is a preliminary study with a sample of size of a mere 20 dogs. With a sample size that small, it would be impossible to come up with anything conclusive enough to call it 'fact.' Heck, even the researchers themselves admit the sample size is too small to come up with any real conclusions. Secondly, this study is not studying the type of aggression you were talking about earlier AKA animal aggression. This study was looking at strictly human aggression. Thirdly, this study isn't about pit bulls. Or 'prey drive.' Or anything breed specific. Or about ANY of the other nonsense you were claiming. Lastly, it's out of date. Canine aggression and genetic control This is not a study. This is an article, written by a journalist, who is interpreting a study. In fact, he's interpreting the study you linked above. http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/store/10.1111/j.1601-183X.2010.00568.x/asset/j.1601-183X.2010.00568.x.pdf;jsessionid=EC7AB6236974B2DF26C50CCB90DDA709.d01t04?v=1&t=h35zjams&22a05bc0&systemMessage=Wiley+Online+Library+will+be+disrupted+on+9+June+from+10%3A00-12%3A00+BST+%2805%3A00-07%3A00+EDT%29+for+essential+maintenance This was a dead link for me. There is also a known genetic predisposition for aggression in human beings. Just for the record. Theory. Not proven fact. There's a difference, you know. With all the said, I DO agree with your comments about the OP's situation. I, too, think there's more wrong with their relationship than this dog.
Janesays Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Can you please point me to a chromosome in a lion that includes "wants to kill humans" gene? Oh wait. You can't. I didn't claim such a chromosome exists. Therefore, it's not my obligation to prove anything. Further, if you are going to claim that a dog has a genetic predisposition to do something, it is YOUR duty to back that up with facts. Otherwise, you can just admit that it's your OPINION. You can even say that you really truly deep down in your heart think it MUST be true. Like Jesus. Opinion isn't science. Science is science.
RedRobin Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 Canary issue is right. Agree with Carhill and XXOO and Mmm. Chaucer on this... 'nuf said. (ps. LOVE border collies by the way)
Author iris219 Posted June 7, 2012 Author Posted June 7, 2012 Canary issue is right. Agree with Carhill and XXOO and Mmm. Chaucer on this... 'nuf said. (ps. LOVE border collies by the way) I know. I'm not as naive as I probably seem. At this point, I'm willing to sacrifice short term happiness (being in a less than ideal relationship) for long term happiness (becoming a mother). I'm not, however, willing to give up my dog. I do have a limit on how unhappy I'm willing to be.
RedRobin Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I know. I'm not as naive as I probably seem. At this point, I'm willing to sacrifice short term happiness (being in a less than ideal relationship) for long term happiness (becoming a mother). I'm not, however, willing to give up my dog. I do have a limit on how unhappy I'm willing to be. You said in an earlier post (sorry if I paraphrase) that anyone who expects you to back out of your commitment to your animal is not someone you want to be with. Yes, I realize it goes both ways... but I feel the same way. My dog came first. I will make reasonable accomodations, absolutely. That is only respectful. I do personally have a problem with people who feel a compelling need to own a pit bull. Long story and off-topic. I realize it isn't the dog's fault and the whole situation is sad. I still have my doubts about people who need to have them or any dog known for aggressive tendencies.
OliveOyl Posted June 7, 2012 Posted June 7, 2012 I guess I have the minority view in this thread. If I had a dog, and were starting a new relationship, I most certainly wouldn't give up the dog if there was a problem. However, after the relationship had reached a certain level (e.g. moved in, or engaged, etc.) IF for any reason there was a fundamental incompatibility between my partner and the dog (or cat), I would find another home for the animal. Human relationships are more important to me than animal relationships. Incompatibility might mean: my partner or his kids turned out to be very allergic to the animal; the animal was aggressive toward one of my partner's children or pets and that didn't change after some time or training; my partner ended up strongly disliking the animal. My BF has a dog and I brought in a cat into our "blended" family and there have been issues with both pets but we are doing our best to work with the pets and make things work. My BF's son is supposedly "allergic" to the cat although the son is allergic to a LOT of things so it's hard to pinpoint how much the cat contributes. However if it had turned out that his son was notably and severely allergic to my cat, I would find another home for the cat. I guess I am a bit twitchy about this subject. When I was married, several years into the marriage we ended up getting a dog that turned out to be a lot more difficult than I expected. (The dog was supposed to help out our disabled child but ended up making things worse for a few years). I remember lightly broaching the subject about the dog, saying, "maybe we signed up for more than we can handle?" And my then-husband said at the time: "If the dog goes, so do I." I need someone who puts ME ahead of an animal. And I would do the same for someone who is my PARTNER.
stse586 Posted June 8, 2012 Posted June 8, 2012 I have six dogs, and I have two males that would try to kill each other if they are ever out together. I really like training high drive, dominant dogs for the sports I do, German shepherds for schutzhund and border collies for herding. It is not the easiest thing to do, but I always have the dogs in two seperate groups. I use crates plus a baby gate as an extra barrier. It is something I've done for years and will for many more. I will not lie, I do have some anxiety that something fails, and they get together when I'm not home. You can try a good trainer, but I could never trust my males together no matter what. They may be able to help or say seperate. I came into my relationship with my husband with a number of dogs. He is pretty lenient and has never made me choose. If he said get rid of the dogs or I'll leave, I could only imagine him saying it to be mean. I've trianed dogs since I was a young child, and I don't want to quit. I'd the the first to get rid of a dog if it was dangerous or a legal liability that I couldn't fix.
username70 Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 well- my bf has cats (5 ... minus one recently died) and a dog. $ cats were outside kennel cats and bf chose his cat over me and my child. I was helping him with his dying cat (congestive heart failure) that twp vets had told time to put to sleep. BF said that it was the same as if my parent was sick- and I said obviously I see a difference in that. He screamed- let me tell YOU something ... I care more about that cat than that Kid in there (my child who obviously wasnt part of conversation.) I left immediately. He tried to get me a card and say that obviously he would care more about a 19 yr old cat than someone elses kid ... which just drove a wedge n further. That was two months ago and the beginning of the end of our relationship...
nofool4u Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 I do personally have a problem with people who feel a compelling need to own a pit bull. Long story and off-topic. I realize it isn't the dog's fault and the whole situation is sad. I still have my doubts about people who need to have them or any dog known for aggressive tendencies. I agree. They aren't muscular and have powerful jaws for nothing. People don't get pits because they are cute and cuddly, because they aren't. And like you said, people get them because of their stature. It may not be the dog's fault, completely, but they are bred for aggression. They don't call them pits for nothing. I almost changed my mind a when I was younger and one of jobs required me to visit customer's homes. It was a real nice lady, and, for all appearances, a very friendly pit bull. I had to visit her home on a couple of occasions. She raised this dog from a puppy and it was clear she didn't raise it to be a pit fighter, or aggressive. On one of my visits I was petting it. All it took was for me to stand a little too fast and it lowered its head, growled, and only thing I could do was stand completely still until she called him off. After that my visits there required her to lock him up, otherwise I wouldn't go. So I don't care what anyone says, pits don't get their rep for nothing, and even the best owner can't stop this muscular, strong jawed dog from its instincts.
Christine52 Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 We are both ready for marriage and children. The dog issue has broken us up in the past because we can't live together with the dogs. (His dog would kill my dog.) We don't know how to make it work, other than live separately, but that won't work if we have children. Hire an animal behaviourist to work with his dog. If he's trying to kill your dog, he is a danger to himself and society. He needs help.
serial muse Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 well- my bf has cats (5 ... minus one recently died) and a dog. $ cats were outside kennel cats and bf chose his cat over me and my child. I was helping him with his dying cat (congestive heart failure) that twp vets had told time to put to sleep. BF said that it was the same as if my parent was sick- and I said obviously I see a difference in that. He screamed- let me tell YOU something ... I care more about that cat than that Kid in there (my child who obviously wasnt part of conversation.) I left immediately. He tried to get me a card and say that obviously he would care more about a 19 yr old cat than someone elses kid ... which just drove a wedge n further. That was two months ago and the beginning of the end of our relationship... Wow. Good thing this ********* showed you who he really is. That's awful.
mtber75 Posted June 13, 2012 Posted June 13, 2012 I find this kind of a question always stupid! A pet is a pet (lower life form) and a human is a human (can actually talk). So comparison between the two is ridiculous. Now I'm a cat person myself, but I much rather talk to a live person ones in a while about my feels. People who say they prefer their pets over people have these underlying issues with people (like being dumped/harmed by them in the past). They should seek professional help. 2
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