How does the dating and sex thing actually work?

July 25, 2012

I've been able to apply many bits and pieces to my own life and gotten new perspectives. Meeks, Teknoe, and everybody else that has posted so consistently in these threads; even though their advice hasn't directly helped you, it has helped me pinpoint some things wrong with my own life and actively make changes. For that, I thank these guys for posting so faithfully- it hasn't gone to waste, and I hope that they don't feel like their time has been wasted either!

Oh nice! I'm glad my efforts have helped someone.

Just a quick story... pardon the pun... so I was at my Bible study group tonight. After the study we were just sitting around, chilling. There were 4 guys (myself included) and 6 girls. We're all in our late 20s to very early 30s. We're just talking, swapping stories, shooting the breeze. So the topic of conversation turned to amusing/weird airplane experiences. A few girls shared their stories for a bit.

I waited for one to finish her story and then I jumped into the flow to share one of my own. It went something like this

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"I've had a pretty weird airplane experience once before. I was flying back from Chicago and I was sitting in the middle of 3 seats. In-between me were two strangers heavily flirting with each other. (note: everyone in the group was laughing and going like "OH MAN, OH NO..." at this point, picturing the scene in their heads). Yeah... can you say awkward? As the plane ride went on, their flirting got steamier and steamier. He was a young musician and she was a big music fan. I was almost like 'Um, you want to switch seats here or something?' but I just sat there, eyes straight ahead as much as it was possible. I was so glad when that plane landed... I felt like I needed a shower ASAP"

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Everyone was cracking up. That's what stories do. People enjoy a good (relevant) story. So the more you live life, the more varied life experiences you have to share, the better off you will be.

Here's another example, also from earlier tonight.

With the Batman movie out, and the question of "When was a time you remember feeling a lot of compassion for someone you didn't know?" came up, I had the perfect story to share. Here's what I told them:

(note: notice my clever, relevant transitional somewhat humorous beginning below to my story, well, that's how my tone reflected it and that's how it was received, with some light humor at the beginning and a foreshadowing of what's to come. Nice skill to have... girls love guys who can show some wit and cleverness)

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"So it's fitting that there's a new Batman movie out right now... coz last summer, I thought about how my group of friends could help give back to the community. I researched online and wanted to find an event that I knew would stretch all of us, and force us out of our comfort zones. This led me to washing the feet of the homeless. It was a very humbling experience. Usually you just drive by homeless people on the street and there's a tendency to think lowly of them, or not think of them at all as you go about the rest of your day. Well, this was a humbling experience because I was down there, washing their feet, SERVING THEM, and as I washed their feet they would share their life stories with me.

I will never forget one man I met. He was in his 60s. He told me he was Bruce Wayne -- THE Batman. At first I was thinking to myself 'Oh boy, this guy is crazy...' but then he went on to share with me stories from his childhood, his memories of his father, and how he was a truck driver for 19 years. Wow. Did that humble me and taught me to see him in a whole new light. Turns out he was a hard working regular guy, just like you and me, but he had some bad breaks along the way.

After I finished washing his feet he gathered his things and thanked me sincerely for my care and service. I told him 'No, THANK YOU, sir.' He left the room. My friend and I stood there just going 'Wow' to each other. Then 25 seconds later "Bruce Wayne -- THE Batman" enters back into the room.

'Did you forget something?' I asked him.

'Sure did!' he exclaimed with enthusiasm.

'Can I help you?'

'Check this out right here...' he pulled something out of his pocket. Mister "Bruce Wayne" proceeded to bust out his Identification Card. I looked at it and WOW... there it was... plain as day...

Name: ... Bruce Wayne.

His name was really actually Bruce Wayne.

He gave me a wink and then walked out. Later that day I shared this with the director of this shelter and she told me this, 'Yeah, Bruce is one of our regulars. He uses the Batman thing as a coping mechanism for his being homeless. It's one of his strategies to keep him going along... you know what they say after all, that our thoughts keep us going...'

I was absolutely blown away, and reminded that I should never judge a book by its cover. I said a prayer for my buddy Bruce Wayne and went home that day with a different outlook on life and homeless people in general."

---

As I shared that story, the girls were all intently listening, and guys, too. But girls naturally have that "awww" reaction and whatnot. I noticed all of them were sitting on the edge of their seats, peering deeply into my eyes as I shared the story. When the "hook" came, you could see them melting. They really liked the moral behind the story I shared. Egg is right, being able to tell good stories really paints you in a favorable light. Just think of all the men out there who have ever gotten married and told their engagement stories around a BBQ, bonfire or the living room. You gotta have some effective, confident and interesting storytelling skills, and watch as the girls completely "awww" their way through.

We are MEN. Men lead. Men (should) have some good stories to share.

It is a skill that can be developed. In college I took a specific Storytelling class. It was one of my favorite classes of all time and it taught me a lot. The art of effective eye contact, dramatic pauses, vocal variety, hand gestures, rate, etc.

Storytelling is a skill that ANYBODY can learn. SD you can certainly learn it. But as always with life, you get out what you put in.

I hope these stories, pardon the pun, help you to see how being able to tell stories can make you shine like a star. You often say "But I have no stories to tell. I lead a boring life." Well, I say to you, notice the common theme of my stories... I GOT OUT OF MY HOUSE, and in the case of the 2nd story, I GOT OUT OF MY COMFORT ZONE.

If you don't have any stories to tell, it's time to make the magic happen! By that I mean time to switch up your routine, be bold and put yourself out there more often. Very rarely do people tell stories about them being at home. It's usually about them being out and about, meeting interesting people, or doing crazy things.

You can learn, IF you truly want to.

I think a storytelling type class (or public speaking) would help you a lot. You may have taken some in the past, but I'd encourage you to take another one as it can teach you a lot of invaluable skills. Does it guarantee you a girlfriend? No. But I promise you it certainly can't hurt. Storytelling is a solid SOLID skill to have. If you don't have this skill, GO DEVELOP it. Hone it. AND THEN USE IT.

I think you can absolutely do it.

But it doesn't matter what I or anyone else thinks.

It always comes back to what you think you can acheive, and what you think you can't.

I hope this post helps you, SOMEDUDE. If not, then I hope at least it helps SOMEBODY out there

July 25, 2012

That depends on how long it takes for a girl to consider me a buddy. I don't know when the cutoff is and it's something I have always had trouble knowing about.

There's not really a "cutoff." You'll find things are rarely that black/white. In fact, I could easily go out and find half a dozen stories of people who were friends or friendly for a good long while before anyone made a move, for whatever reason. Generally, though, these are exceptions, and generally the ones where that actually happened, no one was sitting in wait thinking, "I wish I could ask her out!" but rather things just evolved.

Here's something I don't think has been said quite this way that you often seem to miss, SD: You are a part of how things evolve. Thus there is no "How does this go?" truly because how it goes for me, or Meeks, or TW, or whoever will differ in many ways, and how it goes with one girl will differ from another girl. (This is yet another place where I strongly believe developing some confidence in reading people and success at that clears up a lot of confusion, dissonance, and frustration.)

What I will say on this matter is that you should act on your desires in an expedient matter. Which means that if you see a girl and want to ask her out, take the shortest route, not the long one. Work on directness, efficiency of presentation (which includes charm and game), and being able to be seen as a potential romantic candidate, viable or not - you cannot necessarily determine your viability in any situation until you are accepted or rejected, so just don't worry about it.

If a girl would consider you a viable candidate, but had no idea you were interested, the timeline isn't some kind of ticking time bomb. It's different for everyone - some people look for actions and are insecure about interest, some girls get a boyfriend or a new crush they fixate on, some girls do lose interest simply when they get to know someone and the mystery is gone (granted, good luck maintaining that R anyway). All are different. There's no "buddy cutoff" though it IS fairly unattractive, to many women (again, depends on the woman), for a man to be overly cautious, shy, or indirect in social and romantic situations.

Right now my biggest issue is that I've always been a quiet guy and mainly keep to myself. I go out of my way to talk to girls and joke with them, but in return they just think I'm being friendly.

For an actual relationship, you'd need to add depth to this. But for flirting, you need to add sizzle. To me, the best way to work on charm and game (which is not really just a romantic thing - I have networking game coming out my ears, and it's very similar to my romantic game in strategy!) is to first become socially comfortable. If you are resistant to that and other ideas presented, you will have to find your own way. I don't really have a problem with someone finding their own way - but you can't say no one ever told you how to do this stuff. This is a thread in which loads of people tell you loads of ways. If THOSE ways don't resonate with you, you have 2 productive options: Trust someone and do them anyway, just to see, or Find your own way. Anything else is an unproductive option.

I don't think anyone is against you finding your own way - we are just naturally skeptical that it will happen because it hasn't happened so far. Go out there and get a girlfriend skipping what I consider are the more 'organic' steps, and I'll be happy for you. Truly. But if you ask 'how this works' then all I can tell you is how it works as I know it to work. That's all any of us can do, and it's frustrating when you seem to dislike the answers. To me, it's like saying "I dislike gravity" or "I dislike that the sun rises in the East" (I'm not saying my observations on dating are actually scientifically proven; they're just the only observations I can lend, to be clear). There's just no use in that. That's how things are as far as I can tell. And you work with them, or you fail.

Yes, SD has some issues. We all do. But I've said it before--and SD has ignored me--I'm strongly believe SD would have MUCH better luck with women his own age. Actually, I don't think he'd have a hard time getting a date with a 30 year old.

I believe he may struggle a bit still, but I think he'd have a far greater chance of success than trying to date women in their teens and early 20s for a few reasons: 1) Generally, if those girls do date older men, they expect the man to be already established in ways SD is not and/or they do it because those men are higher-status/charming/hot/whatever. Unless you truly just get a very lucky match, but that's possible at any age range and with less dissonance at some., 2.) Generally girls in that age range are the least interested in Rs, character, etc, than other age groups - not all young women are superficial, but many are more so than they will be a few years later. Of those that are not, many are focused on college instead or uncomfortable with dating (and girls who are uncomfortable with dating generally want men who are comfortable with dating - I also think SD would actually click better with a woman who was comfortable with dating; sometimes it's helpful if there's at least one lead) or whatnot, 3.) That is the most coveted age range and the one that rejects the most.

He can want what he want, but his basis that many his-age women would reject him for inexperience, while true, neglects the fact that many younger women will as well because they'll be basing it on HIS age, not their own, and younger women also have a much wider array of reasons to reject.

So I'm re-reading this thread looking at tips that stand out. I went through half of the thread so far.
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Keep trying and experiment with lots of girls

Don't build up expectations and attachments to asking her out

Don't initiate communication with her too much, more than she is

Start by just talking more with women you naturally come into contact with in your every day life, whether or not you are attracted to them. Just make a conscious decision to interact with people more. And practice it.

One guy said that I should randomly approach 10 girls and two might give me their number. (No mention of how many of those two would go on a date with a stranger)

Develop social capital

Work on your inner life so that you're more interesting to people. (Somehow I have to become more interesting to women so they can start considering me as somebody worthy of dating them.)

Except for the silly 'who initiates communication game' which could easily backfire on you (I'd say rather 'don't be clingy' but if you aren't, don't worry about that one), those all sound like good tips to me. The phone # one and the asking out women you're not really interested in (this could be okay, but none that repulse you or you'd treat poorly) have limited value and are mostly potential comfort/confidence-builders.

The "inner life" bit you seem to be a bit confounded by - everyone need a rich inner life, for themselves and others. I don't think you actually lack that necessarily, as you have some products of it (voice, POV) that are very clear though you could work on ways of increasing passion in your life in general and happiness in general.

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Just saw this post from Zengirl

Man I wish that was true and with a visible meter too. That way I would know where I stand with the girl and can see the effect my actions have on her.

I know you do. Every time I use the word 'transactional' to describe your mindset, that's the desire I'm referring to. Unfortunately for you, life will never work that way and it's unproductive to desire it. The greatest suggestion I have for you is: Acceptance. Accept all that is happened and the way the world seems to work and then work WITH it, instead of AGAINST it. You have seen the results of working against it already.

ETA: As to another question you asked, if a girl is going to go out with you, she'll have to like you from the start - at least enough for a date. Working on charm, vibe, game, social comfort, passion, etc, can all help build initial impressions. But no one is going to go on a date if they have no interest in you.

Edited July 25, 2012 by zengirl

July 25, 2012

Wow, what a post. Thanks for taking the time ColdEggNog, which is my favorite drink BTW. I buy it by the gallon when it's in season

Same here! December has always been a month I've been fond of; I enjoy cold weather, the constant uproar of Christmas music, the week I get to spend free from responsibility with family around Christmas time... but my favorite guilty pleasure has always been egg nog. Of course, if egg nog wasn't around in December time, there probably wouldn't be so many people needing to vow to lose 10 pounds as part of their New Years Resolutions

Back when I was 22, I was extremely quiet, I hardly ever spoke to anybody. I remember going to Jr. college for a couple of years and I can't remember having a conversation with anybody on that campus. Needless to say, I wasn't dating anybody nor have I ever in a friendzone thing by that time.

Yup; hopefully even if you haven't had a gf over the rest of your 20s, you've at least been better equipped with some social skills.

Damn, that really sucks. The people who were supposed to be there for you failed.

In a way, my parents failed as well. Neither of them talked about dating/relationships or girls at all with me. Even now that I'm 30 years old, my Dad still never talks about it, but at least my mom is worried about me though she has been of no help. Heck, she hasn't remarried since she divorced my dad over 20 years ago. I don't think she's had a boyfriend in 10 years. She also doesn't have any real friends. I think we're too alike in those things.

Now, I'd never go as far as saying that my parents "failed" me. However, in that situation with my dad, it was one of those scenarios in which the only solution would have literally been to "get a girlfriend," which helped shape why I was so intent on finding a girlfriend. There have been other similar scenarios too which honestly I think contributed to a certain extent of my social anxiety and difficulties opening up (the latter I alluded to in my previous post). I know they've always meant well, even if it's sometimes hard to see that. But I digress.

So the hookups didn't help your confidence at all?

Yeah I'm not sure how much some meaningless casual things would help me either. It's simply not what I want.

Though it seems that none of us has had a GF yet, and don't know if that is the answer or not.

The last one I had was about half a year ago. On a really superficial level, I felt attractive. On a different level, I realized that if I was attractive enough for some hookups (3 where alcohol was not involved at all), then it wasn't necessarily looks that were causing my progress to stall- it was my mindset. Ff I worked on my personality a little more, there would be nothing stopping me from finding my better half down the road. So in a sense, yes, they have helped my confidence.

I'll turn that question around too- was I incorrect in reading that the last time you had sex was 28? Unless I'm mixing topics up, I'm pretty sure I read that from you. How did that arise and how did that affect your confidence?

My dangerous mindset of thinking never helped me- it was only until recently that I found that this mindset was actually preventing me from getting a girlfriend.

How was it preventing you?

Ah yes, I realize that I was a bit vague in clarifying that. I was always so absorbed with the direct road to finding a girlfriend; I'd fall hard for a female friend, and I'd begin to microanalyze all of our interactions. The mindset of getting a girlfriend to make me happy was not only preventing me from getting a girlfriend, but also preventing me from being happy. You might not realize it, but if your main goal is to get a girlfriend, then you will "put on a pedestal," so to speak, any girl that you think meets the qualities of what you're looking for in a girlfriend. When I say it was preventing me from getting a girlfriend, I mean two things:

1. Think back to D for a minute- in the time that you were friends with her, you were at your happiest when you were talking to her or spending time with her, correct? Once she cut things off with you, you were no longer happy, correct?

Correlation vs. causation is a concept that is typically misapplied to statistics. Statisticians will often see a linear trend, and immediately say "wow, eating big macs is directly correlated to obesity- this means that eating big macs causes obesity!!!omgomg" This is flawed thinking; of course big macs could contribute to obesity, but they don't necessarily cause it (sedentary lifestyles, quantity of big macs, other fast food items etc are also variables). So how does this apply to you and I?

You begin to overthink again; you see that "wow, I was really happy when I had D" or "I was only happy when there were girls around," "therefore, getting a girlfriend is what makes me happy!" I've also seen in your posts that "the only thing I haven't tried to make me happy is getting a girlfriend, so that must be it."

With that said, when you synthesize in your mind that a girlfriend is what you need to make you happy. You begin to believe this, so when you find somebody such as D, you immediately become happy and will do anything in your power to make sure it works out. When it doesn't work out, you become very distraught, and this depression causes you to lose hope and hesitant to trying.

I can't tell exactly what's going on in your mind, but I'd be willing to bet that this is likely the case, and it's definitely something I've been through man. When somebody I've been really into shoots me down, I began to obsess over what I could have done to make it work with that girl or what I did that contributed to it not working out with that girl. I was obsessing because I had put them on a pedestal and wanted desperately for it to work out. Because I was obsessing over one particular girl, I missed out on numerous other opportunities in front of me because of the "tunnel vision" (more on this in a little while). I began to lose faith in myself, and others began to see it in me. It would drive people, including other girls, away.

Fastforward to now. Truthfully, I realized I didn't have much going on in my life. I liked video games, surfing the web, and using AIM to talk to my friends/potential love interests. Aside from that, I had very few hobbies. I like to stay inside. Really, the only source of my happiness came to me whenever I was talking to E (back in high school) or talking to any other subsequent crush that I had. I thought this was natural, but after my most recent failures, I've come to realize that I just didn't have much going on in my life (more on this when I get to the 5 questions I asked you later). Most people around me were stable people, because even if they were single, they had other things that were passionate about. I didn't really know who I was until recently, and that was because I had a huge amount of time to really ponder that question.

Because my main goal was to get a girlfriend, I didn't feel like trying anything spontaneous. If E would go to volleyball practice or go get dinner, I would sit at my computer and wait for her to get back, because I was only really happy when I talked to her, and all my other "hobbies" such as video games were done as time killers. This is an extreme case, and I look back at it now and realize how much time I wasted because I obsessed over someone.

I realize that I really, really hit hard on that, but I think it's an important point that needs to be laid out, because whether or not you realize it, your mind is subconsciously running on that road.

2. Subconsciously, when your goal is to get a girlfriend, you begin to get "tunnel vision." Not in a literal sense, but a metaphorical sense in that you only see opportunities that present themselves directly in front of you; as I've already discussed at length, if you really think a girlfriend is what will make you happy, then you won't see much merit in doing anything else. Trust me, I've been there. In the time that I chased E in high school or any of my big crushes on other friends in college, if any of them got a hold of me and asked me to hang out, you bet that I'd immediately drop what I was doing and make them a priority. I'm going to assume you'd do the same thing. Note that the definition of clingy that most people have defined so far has related to the anount of contact that you initiate with the girl. If I was hanging out with somebody else and E texted me asking if I wanted to go to X and Y:ZZ, I used to ditch what I was currently doing to hang out with her, thinking "yes, this is my chance!" Nope, bad thinking. Hopefully you cringed at reading that as much as I just cringed writing it. In a sense, what I had done was a much worse form of clinginess.

That anecdote on clinginess I just bought up to bring up another point: if I hadn't made E such a priority in my life, what could have happened? You've said it yourself that you wouldn't have pursued the friendship with D if she was dating someone or upfront said that she didn't want to date you. I both agree and disagree with this point of view; it's good to set up boundaries for yourself. While you did get hurt in the end when she was direct, you were interested in her and would've cut her off, I'm assuming to defend yourself from getting strung on. On the other hand, by having tunnel vision and only seeing D as a potential love interest, you subconsciously missed out on other opportunities. You, subconsciously, made her as the top priority. You didn't think you were clingy, and would be alright with just seeing her once or twice a week- that's fine. However, I found that you often waited around for her to respond to your messages and would get frustrated when she wouldn't. That's a natural instinct, I can't fault you for that. You didn't like it at all when she would make plans then bail, did you? She was one person, yet she had the power of a dictator, as did E. Even though my goal was to get a girlfriend, my tunnel vision made E out to be the most important thing and I put my happiness on her (which she later realized and also contributed to scaring her off). If my main goal was to get a girlfriend though, why didn't I accept failure and try to get out of the tunnel? Honestly, I can't answer that. What I can say was that because I only wanted a girlfriend, once I found someone that I thought would help me reach my goal (E), my heart began to take control of me. When I realized that wouldn't happen, I was crushed because I'd both put E on a pedestal and I was back to the front of the tunnel. I'm going to go into this in a bit, but years later did I realize I had other opportunities in front of me. I can't tell exactly what you're thinking, but I can only try to assess your situation by comparing it to similar situations I've been through.

Hopefully you're still with me- I realize I've written a ton, and hopefully some of this is resonating!

Take my comments with a grain of salt since I'm still single, but it's consistent with what others were saying as well. In using some much mind power in trying to work things out with a girl that I've idolized in my mind, I completely missed opportunities with other great girls. Three examples below:

Girl A: At the time in high school that I was pining over E, there was another girl, A, that was in my group of friends. She was very chatty to the extent that she was a bit annoying, but overall very kind hearted. She would always find excuses to hang out. Most of the time, I would, but because I wanted E, I thought of it as just hanging with friends. After we graduated, a year later she told me that she had a huge crush on me in high school, but she also sensed that I was more interested in E. What if I hadn't been so obsessed with E? A is definitely somebody I would've given a chance.

Girl B: B is a tricky one. I met her through a crush my first year of college, P. B was one of the sweetest girls I knew, and after we met, got together on occasion. Because of my crush on P, I never pursued B even though she had just recently broken up with her boyfriend and was looking to start dating again. Several months later after I gave up on P, I started seeing something anew in B. I got up the courage to ask her out eventually, but as it turns out, she had been dating someone for a few months but she hadn't told many people about it. She said "you have bad timing." Ouch, yes, I did.

Girl C: My sophomore year, I met a girl, C, at a retreat for an extracurricular program we were doing. We didn't interact much, but she's kind hearted and spends a lot of time volunteering with animals. Not super attractive, but cute nonetheless. She was shy in person, and one of those girls that firmly believed that if the guy is interested, he'll ask. After the retreat, she added me on facebook and started initiating conversation- there were nights where we'd randomly stay up til' 4 AM talking. At the same time, I'd also be talking to P, on facebook. P was a close friend, had a serious boyfriend, but I still thought there may have been something there- I had a crush on her in my first year of college, it went away, then came back stronger than ever sophomore year. Anyway, C and I had a chemistry class together it turns out so we'd get together on occasion to study (she initiated most times). C explicitly said at one point, at random, that "there's a guy in her life right now that she'd go out with if he just asked her." The topic was never mentioned again. At the time there were no other guys she was really talking to, and she did what she could to gauge my interest. I didn't know at the time why I let her slip by, but today, the reason is very clear. I didn't consider that she was interested until a year later.

**(Aside: I eventually told P that I had feelings, and she was concerned because she was dating someone. We went "NC" for a few months- NC is quotations because she would still talk to me on occasion in the first month. Today, she's one of my best friends and I've gotten a date through her before... another opportunity I would have missed if I had stayed hung up on P)

The common denominator in all three of these was I was impaired by tunnel vision. Instead of letting things happen organically with girls A, B, or C, I was so bent on getting a girlfriend that I subconsciously fixated on other girls. I don't know why I let this happen, it just did. Alllll of the above to say- if you continue to try and validate happiness through getting a girlfriend, well, in the words of Super Cool Ski Instructor from South Park, "you're gonna have a bad time."

If you managed to read all of the above, I commend you, and I'd be interested in hearing some of your perspectives and thoughts or questions.

Every woman I have asked out has rejected me, except for the rare one where I was able to get a first date. To me, asking out a lot of girls = getting rejected by a lot of girls.

Yes, that's very true. I don't know anybody that hasn't faced a lot of rejections with girls. Sure, I know guys that are naturally super inclined to be confident and smooth with women, but the vast majority of people aren't.

And you were able to get first dates- great! My so called friends back in the day that told me I was going to die alone- turns out they've never even been on a formal date with a girl and were just projecting their insecurities against me. Even if things look bleak, you're certainly not even close to the bottom of the barrel. Naturally, we don't like rejection. Most fear it, and that's a natural response. If you do it enough, you can either 1. become immune to it, or 2. begin to overthink and let it affect your future behavior (see tunnel vision explanation above). You've succeeded in the past, what's to make you think it can't happen again? All you have to do is try again!

What's the last thing to do? Self improvement. I understand the feeling of thinking that having a girlfriend will make everything better, but truthfully, that mindset will only make things worse.

How does that mindset make things worse?

Just wanted to reiterate this point. I just wrote about it at length, but it wouldn't hurt to read through it again. But if you're burnt out of reading for today, I don't blame you for not

I think it's amazing that you did that. It is certainly something that I can not do. I am not that outgoing of a person. Hell if I was in your situation but it was a girl playing with by herself, I wouldn't even go up to her.

BTW which of you initiated plans to meet up again?

I was the one that came up to him and said "hey, wanna hit around?" At the end of our rally, he told me that we should do this again and we got each others' numbers. He got a hold of me again in a couple days, and now we pretty evenly rotate between who contacts who to play.

Don't get too hung up in "who initiates plans." Just because somebody doesn't initiate plans, does not mean that they don't want to be your friend. I myself found myself victim to this numerous times, where I thought that if nobody personally contacted me and asked me to hang out, they didn't like me. Complete result of negative social thinking, but looking further into it, it's a fear that really isn't an issue in reality (at least, with people that are worth being friends with anyway). It turns out, if people didn't invite me out, it was usually because they didn't know I was available. I slammed hard on tunnel vision earlier, but if there's one strong case I can make that shows the benefits of going out and talking to people, it's this one. Over the past year, I was super absorbed in school work and work and not many people thought that I'd want to/be able to hang out. I expressed interest in hanging out, but I never had time for it. In the end, they gave up on asking me to do stuff and I thought it was because my friends didn't care about me. In the end, it was because I was always busy and they thought I didn't care about them. Take initiative, people are just as nervous as you are when it comes to making stuff happen!

The above can be applied to friendships with girls as well. Note that I'm not applying this bit of information to finding a girlfriend

Yes I also initiated conversations with people in the clubs and teams and earnestly tried to make a few friends.

One thing that seems to keep happening is that guys already seem to have their own circle of friends and don't really seem interested in making new ones. For some reason it's always been easier to get a girl to hang out with me than a guy.

Understandable. Honestly, I prefer one on one friendships with girls a lot of the time too.

Something I would challenge you to do if you're up to it, now that the point has been hit hard to get yourself out there and seize the opportunities instead of succombing to tunnel vision: you tried all these clubs in the past, and they didn't work. It is understandable that today you have an aversion to trying them again, that's a natural instinct. It ties in with the rejection discussion I made above; sure, you're not going to date every girl you meet or be friends with every person you meet, and you will face unbearable amounts of rejection on both fronts- that is simply life. All that you can do is to convince yourself that rejection is normal and not a reflection of who you are- because that's the truth. Being rejected in any sense is not a reflection that you are a lost cause, being rejected is showing that you're admirable for getting yourself out there and trying!

In the last post, we discussed story telling. You said you don't have many stories to tell- well, that's something you can try different at the next opportunity! So, really, yes, I would encourage you to retry your old venues, but also bring in a new skill and gauge what difference it makes. Insanity is trying the same thing and getting the same results, which I'm guessing is what you're afraid of and why you're so skeptical of trying different things. If you do anything at all different, then it's no longer insanity- it's experimentation and self-improvement.

Putting myself out there is a very vague term. People keep saying that I need to place myself in situations around people and I'll start to make friends. Though nobody mentions anything about starting conversations with strangers and such. Of course starting a conversation with somebody I'm in a class/club/team with is very different from going up to a random person pumping gas.

Phew, I'm exhausted from all the writing above, but this is something that I think is critically important too and a game changer. Yes, putting yourself out there is a vague term, and yes, starting a conversation with somebody in class or a team is very different from going up to a random person pumping gas. In the latter, some people likely won't be welcoming. In the former, you guys already know you have something in common. Another suggestion I may have as opposed to trying to get into an established group of friends which is often time intensive and requires you to get a significant rapport with at least a couple people in the group beforehand, would be to try and seek out other people on the team or in the club that seem to be loners. I guarantee that at least one person there is also struggling to make friends, he/she just doesn't isn't explictly saying that out loud. Find people that are also sitting back and just hanging out (i.e. wallflowers) as opposed to trying to chat up the people that seem to be natural chatterboxes.

If you would like to know more on conversation starters and maintaining conversations with people that you can apply to your own life such as in school, feel free to ask and I'll write more at a later time. I'm sure everybody else would be just as eager to help too.

I really don't think I have any exciting or interesting stories to tell. A big part of that is almost everything I've done in the past, even if it should have been a good experience, I only remember the bad things about it. And of course nobody wants to hear about something depressing. I simply believe that other people are more interesting than me. Also when I'm with a girl, I want to get to know her better and hear her voice. The last thing I want to do is talk about myself because it's just boring to me. Though one thing I do is write about myself a lot.

This, leads me to this:

As I shared that story, the girls were all intently listening, and guys, too. But girls naturally have that "awww" reaction and whatnot. I noticed all of them were sitting on the edge of their seats, peering deeply into my eyes as I shared the story. When the "hook" came, you could see them melting. They really liked the moral behind the story I shared. Egg is right, being able to tell good stories really paints you in a favorable light. Just think of all the men out there who have ever gotten married and told their engagement stories around a BBQ, bonfire or the living room. You gotta have some effective, confident and interesting storytelling skills, and watch as the girls completely "awww" their way through.

We are MEN. Men lead. Men (should) have some good stories to share.

It is a skill that can be developed. In college I took a specific Storytelling class. It was one of my favorite classes of all time and it taught me a lot. The art of effective eye contact, dramatic pauses, vocal variety, hand gestures, rate, etc.

Storytelling is a skill that ANYBODY can learn. SD you can certainly learn it. But as always with life, you get out what you put in.

Excellent and very sound advice. As was said, there have gotta be some experiences you've had that you can embellish into a story. I don't know if your school offers or requires public speaking or some other story telling class, but I think it would be of great benefit. Not only will you improve your communication skills (critical for women), but who knows, you may also meet a girl in that class. Even if you don't meet a potential love interest, at the least, you'll get new skills that down the road will help you big time, and you'll thank yourself later that you did!

The Bruce Wayne story sounds like a great one by the way, I can tell just by reading it that Teknoe has some interesting experiences under his belt. Somedude, I know you've got some too. You've just gotta really think about it because you can twist a story out of almost anything. I'd suggest sitting down and reflecting for a while, not with the intent of fleshing out a winning story off the bat, but with figuring out what some of your major life events were. Let's say you were writing your autobiography, and you had a chapter for every year of your life (not literally, there probably isn't as much notable in the first 5-10 years). How would you title the chapters- what are some interesting places you've gone, unique people that you've met, great opportunities and jobs that you've had, etc? You've participated in clubs- surely there are some memories you have there. Once you have an outline of "chapters" to summarize your life, then you can start looking more carefully at each chapter and thinking about your experiences there. Not something for you to answer on here, but something to think about. If you've had jobs, then you've had some experiences. This isn't recommended and I might get backlash for it, but if you really think about it and can't come up with good stories, then embellish the truth. For the time being, just embellish the truth a bit until you really have some new experiences to share.

Oooh, more advice! Do you have either an iTouch or a Smartphone? If so, set up some applications will show you some current events going on. On my smartphone, I set up a google reader feed app that shows up on my front screen everytime I turn my phone on. So, everytime I look at my phone, I see some news stories too. During breakfast, I spent 10 minutes scrolling through my google reader looking at news, and do it whenever I'm on the toilet too (super productive time ) I set up my google reader to tell me information about upcoming movies, the British Open, wacky and obscure facts, GameSpot news, updates about the presidential campaign, etc. Basically, stuff that I'm interested in and would make for interesting conversation. If you spent 15 minutes a day just getting a huge blast of information, you'd be amazed with 1. how much more up to date you are with current events, 2. how much more you'll be able to add to conversations, even in the midst of awkward silence, 3. be able to have more intricate discussions with people on both your personal experience and readings! This will also make you much more "profitable" to women as they'll be impressed by how much more able you can hold a conversation (this is also personal experience ever since I tricked out my phone). Give it a shot! If your story telling isn't up to speed, at the least, being able to talk about current events will help you socialize, or reading about the cow that swam the length of a swimming pool in Canada will give you some interesting stories to tell for the time being while you expand on your own experiences.

I think my social skills are passable but that really does depend on what social skills actually encompasses. I do feel that I am pretty quiet, mostly because I feel that I don't know what to say. That changes when I get to know somebody and feel comfortable with them, then I can talk to them with no problems at all. In other words, I'm fine once the ice has been broken.

There we go! This is how I can tell that you're making some progress. You admit that you're uncertain what social skills emcompasses; I was at a loss for a while too, and it's something that can't adequately be explained here (at least not in a way that hasn't already been explained). I bolded a quote from you that I think is critical and something I wanted to emphasize again- with experiences, brushing up on current events, having a list of questions that you can ask someone when you first meet, etc, this is an easy fix!

As I said, I'm pretty burnt out of writing, but if you're eager to find ways to get your foot in the door, ask and I can share more experiences that have worked for me, or others can share their own experiences too. That's definitely welcome!

Was there something about her you wanted to ask? No I don't know what her favorite outfit was when she was seven years old, if you were going to ask a Meeks7 type question.

Darn, I wanted to know if she was super into Hello Kitty when she was 7 too Kidding. No, I have no questions on the topic right now, but if something comes to mind I'll make sure to ask later.

Favorite video games changes over the years. For the longest time it's been JRPG's like Final Fantasy. I also enjoy games like Dragon Age and Elder Scrolls. The Mass Effect series was also good and I'm currently spending too much time each day playing the multi-player, which is funny because it's the only online game I've ever played.

I prefer the solitary gaming experience. When I play MMO's I never join guilds and only part when absolutely necessary. I never have anybody on my friends list. The other people might as well be NPC's. When I play Mass Effect online, I have voice chat muted and I never speak.

I do like to play with people I know locally, especially girls. Which reminds me about her

I don't have a favorite movie. But I do like super hero, action and comedy movies. The Avengers was awesome, but I've only seen it once.

Favorite foods are pizza, buffalo wings and mainstream Asian and Mexican foods.

Top bands right now are Offspring, Green Day, Linkin Park, Foo Fighters; so I like alternative. Though I also like dance/club music. When I want to mellow out my favorite station is Groove Salad.

Hobbies are playing video games, watching anime, killing time online, I also like going on little journeys. For example I might explore my town on my bike or ride to the jetty at the beach. When I'm in an unfamiliar location for an event or something I like to wander around on foot and see what there is to see.I don't like being cooped up in one place when I'm outside my apartment. I also work out and did so a few hours ago.

Now we're onto the questions I asked, each with their own reason. Some I asked to try and gauge who you are as a person (what are your interests), some I asked to get a sense of your social skills, etc.

Getting to know you a little better in a more "objective" sense is something that is very important as a forefront of all social interactions (you mentioned that you didn't necessarily know what social skills encompass, so this is one overarching aspect). You mentioned that you don't know how to start conversation with people too often; there's no shame in asking somebody "so, what do you like to do in your spare time?" You were able to give me a pretty substantial list. Most people will be able to do the same, and odds are, you'll be able to find a common interest and discuss more fully. Sure, it might feel awkward to directly ask as if it's some sort of interrogation, but it's so much less awkward than standing silence.

There is often a negative opinion of people spending their time playing video games. I used to play a lot more when I was younger and was a huge Nintendo 64 person. The Zelda games, Paper Mario, Goldeneye, Jet Force Gemini, Mario Party, were all games I spent a lot of time playing. They were also games that ate away at opportunities to meet other people.

NOBODY should be telling you that video games are a waste of your time. They're something that have been in your life for a while and are a part of who you are, and that is very clear from your response. It would be ideal if a girl would join you for Final Fantasy (I mentioned a story about B above; as it turns out, she's a video game person too and adores Final Fantasy- something that I would have never known just by looking at her); sadly, that's also an ideal world, so I guess we'll just have to make due with what we've got.

One slight thing I wanted to comment on- "killing time online" was listed as a hobby of yours. It is a hobby in a sense that it is a "time killer," but realistically, when you describe it as a time killer, then it is dead weight. In high school and first year of college, I was online pretty much every opportunity that I had. As we also see, I didn't have very much success at life back then either. This leads me to an objective bit of feedback:

I know you've criticized both MeetUp and online dating, and if you don't want to try them, nobody can make you, but I have my two cents on those. Most of the people that join MeetUp groups are generally people that also are looking for friends or lovers. Some might be joining because they're really into a hobby, but if they're joining a MeetUp group, generally, they want to meet people too. I went to a tennis MeetUp group the other week (I actually didn't know about MeetUp until somebody suggested it in one of your threads- thank you LS!), and I found that at least half of the people there were new to the area. Some loved the sport, but didn't have people to play with. Thus, your fear of people not wanting to make friends at one of these isn't necessarily true. Your experience may vary, but I can only discuss what happened with mine. I could only imagine that by continuing to go, your rapport with these people would improve and you'll find friends you have stuff in common with, or perhaps, even a girlfriend! Again, this requires you to trust in the advice and believe that something good will come out of it, and encourages you step away from tunnel vision.

I asked you to tell me more about yourself to figure out who you, Somedude81, are as a person, so that you're not just "some dude" anymore to me. This also has showed me how, in the absence of a girlfriend, you like to spend your time. You love video games, great! Just as long as you don't have spells where you break your controller, it's a fine hobby. You work out- great, I'm assuming you're in reasonably good shape then. You pointed out that you "kill time online-" I'm not going to continue to criticize that hobby until I've gotten more feedback on that from you: when you "kill time online," what do you do?

In seeking out clubs or activities for the future, seek out the ones that 1) are interesting to you (i.e.- hobbies you listed- video game club, pizza eating group, wing eating competition, etc), and 2) make sure to apply some of the skills from this message into your experiences there.

I'd like to go on a cruise. Traveling would also be nice.

One thing that would be pretty cool is to take my car on a track and just go fast.

Very cool! I've personally never been on a legitimate cruise either, but I'd love to at some point. And by your second response, I'm guessing you're a NASCAR fan?

I ask this to get a sense of stuff that you would be interested in trying; stuff that you would love to try and would be great experiences and confidence boosters. Of course, for now travel and taking a cruise might be difficult with funds or school, but there are opportunities out there. I don't know how feasible these are at your school or how abundant opportunities are, but have you considered study abroad? I know at my alma mater, the cost of study abroad tuition was the same as college tuition at my school (excluding airfare). Going overseas would give you an opportunitity to have some amazing experiences as well as meet new people (both from your school and at your destination country). There are many English programs so if you don't know a foreign language, you can still go abroad. Better yet, you could also pick up a foreign language class (Spanish, French, Swahilil, etc) that would enable you to not only bolster up your resume, but also allow you to meet new people. Typically in the Spanish classes I took, there was a huge conversation component. Unless there were native speakers, most of the people taking the class struggled at communicating in Spanish, but conversation topics were usually very fun and informal and I did make friends out of each class I took. They force you to talk to people, so even if you struggle at starting conversation, they do it for you! You mentioned you were in Japanese club, but why not pick up another language? Or why not try to study in Japan for a bit?

I studied abroad three years ago- absolutely amazing experience, and I have at least one story for every day that I was there. I could go on for hours and still not be able to finish everything.

My major is Information Systems. So most likely I'd have some sort of job in the tech industry. Honestly, I'm graduating next year and don't have any real plans after that. I'll probably just start applying and see if anybody in family knows of any place that could use me.

I'd probably be living in a nicer apartment and have more money than I do now, which isn't that hard to do.

Hobbies would probably be the same as they are now. Of course assuming I don't have a GF. I think I'd buy a motorcycle once I have more disposable income, and an assigned parking space which I don't have now.

The "where will you be in 5 years" question is always a tough one, but it's very telling of your persona. It's good that you have at least a vague idea of where you want to be. Since you're about to graduate, I'm guessing you'll probably start hitting up your career center in the near future. Do you know what type of tech job you'd ideally have? Let's say you walk into work at 9 AM each day, what would your ideal work day entail? Not many people want to just go in at 9, work a monotonous job, then leave at 5. What do you WANT to do?

The purpose of the question was to gauge your long term goals. You have a vague idea, but it could still be expanded on. I imagine that once you start utilizing career center resources or doing more research into companies you apply for, you'll be able to answer this question more confidently in 6 months. It's perfectly fine that your answer wasn't perfect; plans change. But it does give you something to think about! (That, and I feel like job employers typically like asking that exactly question in an interview setting).

Join Date: Mar 2008

I head about LS when I was a regular poster on PUA website called SoSuave. I joined because there were actually women here

I felt that I could only get so much from a single gender website.

I know I could have looked up your join date, but I didn't want to leave the "reply to thread" screen

Fair response. Now that I think about it, I don't have a novel reason for that question. Oops.

I'd mail it to her with all the contents included. I just hope the address on her license is correct because mine sure isn't

So what have you learned about me?

Great, this question was to check on basic empathy skills; in particular, a scenario in which you get nothing out of doing something nice for a woman that's unavailable. While we can only assume how you act in a social setting based on your responses here, online responses can only say so much about an 'in person' persona. By presenting you with a hypothetical question and answering appropriately, you at the least have shown to have altruistic and empathetic qualities. In viewing OKCupid match questions, you'd be surprised with some of the responses you see that show a lack of these qualities. Oh, and you should probably fix that address

Somedude, we wouldn't be posting if we didn't think there was hope for you; I see a little of you in a past me, which is how I know that you have potential. It's just overshadowed largely by a lack of experiences, which while I'm no Dr. Phil, I think is largely caused by the tunnel vision, which is largely related to the "girlfriend = happiness" mentality.

Trust me, I know this because once I've had one bad experience too many, it finally clicked that "something I'm doing is wrong. Something that I've insisted is right all these years, has to be wrong." Right now, I don't have too many close friends. That's alright, all I've done for the past few months is work on myself. From that, I've stopped depending on external validation in the form of getting a girlfriend and have started seeking internal validation, in the way of "I know in the long run, everything I'm doing right now will work out for the best." That, somedude, is something you'll have to just take my word on. Now, whenever my dad makes smartass comments to me, I have some sort of witty response in return that he's able to agree with. This is because I've finally figured out who I am as a person- I wasn't meant to be E's shadow, I was meant to shadow myself. Only once I realized that I could be happy without a girlfriend did I start noticing different opportunities in the horizon and did I really start enjoying myself. I still play Zelda on occasion, so I haven't sacrificed any long time hobbies either. I just have more outlets to make me happy.

One last thing before I sign off, you may be skeptical about my advice because I'm still single. Well, once I gave up the "girlfriend for happiness mentality," I discovered that I don't actually want one right now (another side effect of changing my mentality- it's liberating to be okay with being single and being comfortable with myself!) I'm in a transition phase of my life where I'll be moving away to a different part of the country in a month. Absolute new beginning, 100% new me, first time completely erasing the slate and seeing how that affects how my life pans out in the future. Cheers to that and of course, cheers to you somedude. As always, feel free to ask questions as needed about anything.

July 25, 2012

ColdEgg,

First off, thank you for sharing with me that my posts have struck a cord with you and that they've helped you in some way. I'm humbled that they have.

Secondly, you are amazing for writing such an in-depth post to a complete stranger. It is obvious that we all believe in SomeDude, otherwise, we wouldn't continue posting in his threads. I think you hit on some major key points, especially the following quote:

Somedude, we wouldn't be posting if we didn't think there was hope for you; I see a little of you in a past me, which is how I know that you have potential. It's just overshadowed largely by a lack of experiences, which while I'm no Dr. Phil, I think is largely caused by the tunnel vision, which is largely related to the "girlfriend = happiness" mentality.

I ain't no Dr. Phil either but this sounds fairly spot on from everything I've read SomeDude write in the past. I hope he internalizes your pointers and gets something out of it for himself. To take it a step further, his next step is to get more life experiences. Notice I didn't necessarily say girl experiences. Just life experiences in general. He's gotta rebuild his confidence and renew his outlook on life brick by brick.

Edited July 25, 2012 by Meeks7

July 25, 2012

Take my comments with a grain of salt since I'm still single, but it's consistent with what others were saying as well.

[snip]

One last thing before I sign off, you may be skeptical about my advice because I'm still single.

Cold, SomeDude, I know all about tunnel vision. I used to be very much like SomeDude, and how you once were, Cold. While you might be single, Cold, I am not. I can confirm that your points are spot on.

So there you have it, SomeDude. Cold may be single right now, but he's clearly on a healthy path that will eventually set him up nicely to attract a solid lady. That's how it was with me and Beth before she came into my life. It'd be a shame if you missed out on your opportunity because you wasted all these years being bitter and refusing to try anything (both new and old).

Cold, you are a good man. You're going to be fine. Would not shock me if you're off the market within the next 2-3 years. Probably earlier!

July 26, 2012

Meeks, thanks for the kind words. I'm confident that in the end everything will work out for me. I don't know when, but I know I'm taking the right steps. I'm far from perfect, but really, who is?

I too am hoping that somedude internalizes some of it. He liked the post, so surely he agrees with some parts of it!

I must say though, I have felt a lot freer ever since I finally got rid of the "must find mate now" mentality. It took many failures to reach the point of change, but I feel a lot more confident about it now. Just that feeling alone makes it worth it!

July 27, 2012

Meeks, thanks for the kind words. I'm confident that in the end everything will work out for me. I don't know when, but I know I'm taking the right steps. I'm far from perfect, but really, who is?

I too am hoping that somedude internalizes some of it. He liked the post, so surely he agrees with some parts of it!

I must say though, I have felt a lot freer ever since I finally got rid of the "must find mate now" mentality. It took many failures to reach the point of change, but I feel a lot more confident about it now. Just that feeling alone makes it worth it!

+1

I remember when I spent all my time daydreaming and fantasizing about having a girlfriend... while letting life pass me by.

It took me some time but I finally snapped out of it. I decided to embrace life, girlfriend or not. This led me to do a mission trip in Africa, which changed my life.

Shortly thereafter, I met Beth, my current GF, and things took off from there. You're right, it's only when we drop our "must find mate now" mentality that we actually can, ironically enough. Tunnel vision is often times a killer. Once I started changing the way I think and living life just to experience its rich joys that I truly became happy, and in the process NO DOUBT made myself into an attractive viable candidate to single ladies out there.

Just like a field, you gotta prepare diligently before the crops come. You cannot skip steps. Well you can, but you likely won't get the results you ultimately desire.

July 27, 2012

Just want to say that I've read everything but I've been too busy with, and stressed about work to actually sit down and give a substantial reply.

Stay tuned.

July 27, 2012

Just want to say that I've read everything but I've been too busy with, and stressed about work to actually sit down and give a substantial reply.

Stay tuned.

SomeDude, I find it commendable that you actually haven't replied yet. To me this shows growth on your part. It seems like, in addition to work keeping you busy, that you have been chewing on Cold's post which is very much chew-worthy. Many times we reply in haste rather than letting someone's helpful and insightful tips sink in.

Having said that, I do want to briefly throw in this kicker: we all know how much you love to just analyze and figure out everything logically until you actually take action. I encourage you to not sit idle and not sit on your hands this time around. Use the info that you find helpful and start applying it. Don't wait until "later." Start working your way toward good health today.

July 27, 2012

Honestly, being too busy with work to post on LS sounds like a good thing, and just what you need right now.

July 27, 2012

Boy howdy, somedude, if ColdEggNog's posts above don't provide you with some valuable insight and info that you can use to your benefit, I don't know what will.

Some of the best, if not the best, posts I've seen on LS.

July 27, 2012

Boy howdy, somedude, if ColdEggNog's posts above don't provide you with some valuable insight and info that you can use to your benefit, I don't know what will.

Some of the best, if not the best, posts I've seen on LS.

the ironic thing is -- Cold is the perfect example of why having a friend like him in real life enhances life so much. If SomeDude actually had at least ONE GUY friend in his life who could talk openly to him about these things, and ENCOURAGE him, how much better off would he be.

You really are missing out if you don't have a friend like Cold in real life. All of us need that friend we can confide in, and that friend who can LOVINGLY share with us our own blind spots, and at the same time encourage us to do better.

And that's why so many people have emphasized the importance of having a few good friends. If you can find those few people in your life, you will be so much richer for having found it.

July 27, 2012

There's not really a "cutoff." You'll find things are rarely that black/white. In fact, I could easily go out and find half a dozen stories of people who were friends or friendly for a good long while before anyone made a move, for whatever reason. Generally, though, these are exceptions, and generally the ones where that actually happened, no one was sitting in wait thinking, "I wish I could ask her out!" but rather things just evolved.

I have been repeatedly told that I take too long in asking out girls or making moves. So there clearly is some point of no return where if an action isn't made, I'm locked in the friendzone.

What I will say on this matter is that you should act on your desires in an expedient matter. Which means that if you see a girl and want to ask her out, take the shortest route, not the long one. Work on directness, efficiency of presentation (which includes charm and game), and being able to be seen as a potential romantic candidate, viable or not - you cannot necessarily determine your viability in any situation until you are accepted or rejected, so just don't worry about it.

You're saying that because there is a cutoff. A guy has to move fast because it's what a woman expects.

It's funny hearing women complain about guys wanting to have sex soon, when they'd think the guy didn't like her if he hadn't tried

As for charm and game, I have no idea how those work. And they would be a great topic for this thread, and yet have not been discussed before.

If a girl would consider you a viable candidate, but had no idea you were interested, the timeline isn't some kind of ticking time bomb. It's different for everyone - some people look for actions and are insecure about interest, some girls get a boyfriend or a new crush they fixate on, some girls do lose interest simply when they get to know someone and the mystery is gone (granted, good luck maintaining that R anyway). All are different. There's no "buddy cutoff" though it IS fairly unattractive, to many women (again, depends on the woman), for a man to be overly cautious, shy, or indirect in social and romantic situations.

It's overly complicated. But not something that complaining about has any effect.

For an actual relationship, you'd need to add depth to this. But for flirting, you need to add sizzle. To me, the best way to work on charm and game (which is not really just a romantic thing - I have networking game coming out my ears, and it's very similar to my romantic game in strategy!) is to first become socially comfortable. If you are resistant to that and other ideas presented, you will have to find your own way. I don't really have a problem with someone finding their own way - but you can't say no one ever told you how to do this stuff. This is a thread in which loads of people tell you loads of ways. If THOSE ways don't resonate with you, you have 2 productive options: Trust someone and do them anyway, just to see, or Find your own way. Anything else is an unproductive option.

So you are saying that in order to add sizzle to my flirting, I need to work on charm and game, and to do that I need to become socially comfortable.

Then I guess the question is, become socially comfortable with who? Also there is a difference between being able to have socially acceptable conversations and joking about sex and the like.

I don't think anyone is against you finding your own way - we are just naturally skeptical that it will happen because it hasn't happened so far. Go out there and get a girlfriend skipping what I consider are the more 'organic' steps, and I'll be happy for you. Truly. But if you ask 'how this works' then all I can tell you is how it works as I know it to work. That's all any of us can do, and it's frustrating when you seem to dislike the answers. To me, it's like saying "I dislike gravity" or "I dislike that the sun rises in the East" (I'm not saying my observations on dating are actually scientifically proven; they're just the only observations I can lend, to be clear). There's just no use in that. That's how things are as far as I can tell. And you work with them, or you fail.

I'm not trying to dislike the answers, but I want to see how things are connected. I know that being friends with a lot of people is not going to get women to think about me sexually. There is a missing step, and that is what I need to find.

Except for the silly 'who initiates communication game' which could easily backfire on you (I'd say rather 'don't be clingy' but if you aren't, don't worry about that one),

Actually, the who initiates communication thing feels very important. If I initiate 90% of the communication it means that she has no interest in me and most likely doesn't give a damn about me.

those all sound like good tips to me. The phone # one and the asking out women you're not really interested in (this could be okay, but none that repulse you or you'd treat poorly) have limited value and are mostly potential comfort/confidence-builders.

The "inner life" bit you seem to be a bit confounded by - everyone need a rich inner life, for themselves and others. I don't think you actually lack that necessarily, as you have some products of it (voice, POV) that are very clear though you could work on ways of increasing passion in your life in general and happiness in general.

Passion has always been a difficult topic for me as there is simply nothing I am passionate about. I don't have a love for life or anything like that.

I know you do. Every time I use the word 'transactional' to describe your mindset, that's the desire I'm referring to. Unfortunately for you, life will never work that way and it's unproductive to desire it. The greatest suggestion I have for you is: Acceptance. Accept all that is happened and the way the world seems to work and then work WITH it, instead of AGAINST it. You have seen the results of working against it already.

Acceptance feels beyond me. Life has made me angry. I feel I've been cheated. Basically I feel like I've been given the bare minimum to survive. If my life was any worse, I would be even more angry/depressed and probably wouldn't be around any more.

ETA: As to another question you asked, if a girl is going to go out with you, she'll have to like you from the start - at least enough for a date. Working on charm, vibe, game, social comfort, passion, etc, can all help build initial impressions. But no one is going to go on a date if they have no interest in you.

Which is probably why I have gotten so few actual dates in my life, and I'm not even sure how many of those the girl actually knew it was a date

July 27, 2012

I made it a point to stay away from this thread, but here I am back again...

A few thoughts of mine that are going into the soup:

(1) SomeDude needs to be honest at least with himself about what he is and is not willing and able to do. I got my dating life on track by doing lots of cold approaches. Hell I even approached married women sometimes as "practice". I averaged 2 or 3 women a day, which comes to something like 800 women a year. You'll learn a lot if you do that. I also improved the rest of my life by taking up activities like CrossFit and rock climbing (indoor gym). But I will say that there is no faster way to improve your dating life than by doing cold approaches. And getting feedback on what you can be doing better...

I get that SD might not be willing to do this. My concern with SomeDude though, is that what he is willing to do isn't enough. Talking to a few women a semester who happen to be in one of his classes, and hope that things go better with the next one than they did with the last one probably won't get the job done chief.

(2) A few of you who say social circle is the answer are making it sound like such a process. I really don't think you need to be mayor of your social circle to have a girlfriend. Especially because it sounds that all SD really wants is just a nice girl who likes him back. Many people, girls included, lead boring lives. If SD only were to put himself in front of such a girl he might be very pleasantly surprised.

(3) Joining clubs and whatnot is great for longe-term growth and if you really care about the activity. But as a way of meeting women for you to date, it actually sounds nicer than it is IME. I do CrossFit, I love it, and the physical confidence I get from this helps me a lot in dating. But I haven't dated anyone from there.

(4) I don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with SomeDude. I think Veggirl said something like this and I agree with her. I've gotten on him for whining but from his posts he's got solid social skills. It doesn't seem to me that he weirds people out a la Meek's acquaintance or that he needs his hand held to go to the grocery store. Some of you people seem to get hung up on these details as a sign that SD is so far gone/really shallow.

So he got hung up on D and really wanted her--he's not the first guy to get obsessed over a girl. As far as why he knew so little about D according to some of you, I suspect that it's because she really didn't open up to SD (most women will not open up a lot to a guy unless she really likes him) and like a lot of guys he didn't know how to get past that barrier.

Edited July 27, 2012 by Imajerk17

July 27, 2012

I'll add to/sum up what I said in my previous post:

Going by all of SomeDude's threads and posts on here, there are plenty of nice girls who could be into him and whom he could be happy with, even in his present state. He just needs to put himself in front of one of them.

July 27, 2012

I've gotten on him for whining but from his posts he's got solid social skills.

As someone said earlier though, there IS a difference between being able to make some witty posts here and there compared to REAL LIFE bang-bang-bang interaction.

Reading words on a screen, being anonymous (although to his credit he has sent a few of us his picture, myself included), and having time to process and think about what to write back is a whole different ball game.

He needs more face to face time in general. He admits himself he's a little unsure/awkward around girls... and he has zero friends... I simply can't see how anyone could say he has got solid social skills. Saying so would be leading him astray IMO, as he's seeking validation. The problem is, we can only make educated guesses. And I think it's a stronger educated guess to say he lacks social skills than say he's got solid social skills.

That's why I think living life more and spending less time posting on Loveshack isn't the worst idea in the world for him to try.

July 27, 2012

Going by all of SomeDude's threads and posts on here, there are plenty of nice girls who could be into him and whom he could be happy with, even in his present state. He just needs to put himself in front of one of them.

While granted, yes, he could put himself in front of more girls in his "league" (for a lack of a better term), I think it's a disservice to tell him he's "good to go" even in his present state.

No one's looking or demanding perfection from him or anyone else, but a perpetually negative guy who constantly beats himself up is not what I'd call advisable conditions to date. He can try, but I think ultimately he will always feel like something's missing, even if he does manage to date someone for a few weeks. He's gotta rewire his thinking... he doesn't have to be Mr. Happy Go Lucky, but his present state is way too negative.

He really needs to just believe in himself.

If dating helps him to accomplish that, more power to him.

But there's the catch-22... I doubt any girl would want to even date him (not be his GF but just one date) based on how he (probably) carries himself in real life. Again, just educated guesses here. He can come back with "You've got it completely wrong" but who's to say he's not wrong when he thinks that?

Bottom line, he needs to JUST DO SOMETHING.

Whether that's asking out 2-3 girls a day using the cold approach, or going to coffee shops, or forcing himself to make small talk with clerks and cashiers, etc.

JUST DO SOMETHING. Don't just stay at home posting on LS. Get out there and put yourself in a position to learn and grow. You can pursue dating AND self-improvement at the same time. But just do something.

July 29, 2012

Yup; hopefully even if you haven't had a gf over the rest of your 20s, you've at least been better equipped with some social skills.

Yeah, I have improved a bit over the years.

The last one I had was about half a year ago. On a really superficial level, I felt attractive. On a different level, I realized that if I was attractive enough for some hookups (3 where alcohol was not involved at all), then it wasn't necessarily looks that were causing my progress to stall- it was my mindset. Ff I worked on my personality a little more, there would be nothing stopping me from finding my better half down the road. So in a sense, yes, they have helped my confidence.

So it did help. Knowing that a woman wants to have sex with you, without the aid of of booze, definitely can give a confidence boost. And it sounds like you've had a few of those and those are the just the ones where booze wasn't involved.

I'll turn that question around too- was I incorrect in reading that the last time you had sex was 28? Unless I'm mixing topics up, I'm pretty sure I read that from you. How did that arise and how did that affect your confidence?

Yes, it was a few years ago, 28 sounds about right.

How did that arise? I saw a listing on Craigslist for a swingers party and paid $50 to get in.

Needless to say, it did absolutely nothing for my confidence. Although the experience was nice and I felt good for a week or so after.

Unlike you, I have never had sex with a girl in the "right way." There has been absolutely nothing in my life to give me the impression that a woman has actually wanted me. That is a huge reason why I have no confidence.

Ah yes, I realize that I was a bit vague in clarifying that. I was always so absorbed with the direct road to finding a girlfriend; I'd fall hard for a female friend, and I'd begin to microanalyze all of our interactions. The mindset of getting a girlfriend to make me happy was not only preventing me from getting a girlfriend, but also preventing me from being happy. You might not realize it, but if your main goal is to get a girlfriend, then you will "put on a pedestal," so to speak, any girl that you think meets the qualities of what you're looking for in a girlfriend. When I say it was preventing me from getting a girlfriend, I mean two things:

Yup, I was definitely microanalyzing.

1. Think back to D for a minute- in the time that you were friends with her, you were at your happiest when you were talking to her or spending time with her, correct? Once she cut things off with you, you were no longer happy, correct?

Correlation vs. causation is a concept that is typically misapplied to statistics. Statisticians will often see a linear trend, and immediately say "wow, eating big macs is directly correlated to obesity- this means that eating big macs causes obesity!!!omgomg" This is flawed thinking; of course big macs could contribute to obesity, but they don't necessarily cause it (sedentary lifestyles, quantity of big macs, other fast food items etc are also variables). So how does this apply to you and I?

You begin to overthink again; you see that "wow, I was really happy when I had D" or "I was only happy when there were girls around," "therefore, getting a girlfriend is what makes me happy!" I've also seen in your posts that "the only thing I haven't tried to make me happy is getting a girlfriend, so that must be it."

With that said, when you synthesize in your mind that a girlfriend is what you need to make you happy. You begin to believe this, so when you find somebody such as D, you immediately become happy and will do anything in your power to make sure it works out. When it doesn't work out, you become very distraught, and this depression causes you to lose hope and hesitant to trying.

I can't tell exactly what's going on in your mind, but I'd be willing to bet that this is likely the case, and it's definitely something I've been through man. When somebody I've been really into shoots me down, I began to obsess over what I could have done to make it work with that girl or what I did that contributed to it not working out with that girl. I was obsessing because I had put them on a pedestal and wanted desperately for it to work out.

While being with a girl isn't the only thing that makes me happy, it is what makes me the happiest. I think it is simply because hanging out with girl and spending time with her is like having a pretend GF and a having a GF is what I want most in this world. There's something else about, being around feminine energy or something. Also it just makes sense to be happy when you are around somebody you like.

Yes I do become depressed when things don't work out. And I was obsessing about everything I could have done differently. There is nothing more than I want than to be able to go back in time and try a different approach with D.

Because I was obsessing over one particular girl, I missed out on numerous other opportunities in front of me because of the "tunnel vision" (more on this in a little while).

I began to lose faith in myself, and others began to see it in me. It would drive people, including other girls, away.

You drove other people away? How?

Fastforward to now. Truthfully, I realized I didn't have much going on in my life. I liked video games, surfing the web, and using AIM to talk to my friends/potential love interests. Aside from that, I had very few hobbies. I like to stay inside. Really, the only source of my happiness came to me whenever I was talking to E (back in high school) or talking to any other subsequent crush that I had. I thought this was natural, but after my most recent failures, I've come to realize that I just didn't have much going on in my life (more on this when I get to the 5 questions I asked you later). Most people around me were stable people, because even if they were single, they had other things that were passionate about. I didn't really know who I was until recently, and that was because I had a huge amount of time to really ponder that question.

Because my main goal was to get a girlfriend, I didn't feel like trying anything spontaneous. If E would go to volleyball practice or go get dinner, I would sit at my computer and wait for her to get back, because I was only really happy when I talked to her, and all my other "hobbies" such as video games were done as time killers. This is an extreme case, and I look back at it now and realize how much time I wasted because I obsessed over someone.

I realize that I really, really hit hard on that, but I think it's an important point that needs to be laid out, because whether or not you realize it, your mind is subconsciously running on that road.

Damn, that was pretty extreme, just waiting for her and not doing anything else for fear of missing her.

I do understand just staying at home and not doing much. I just don't really like going out by myself that much. If I'm going to be alone, I rather be home where I have a few things to pass the time.

2. Subconsciously, when your goal is to get a girlfriend, you begin to get "tunnel vision." Not in a literal sense, but a metaphorical sense in that you only see opportunities that present themselves directly in front of you; as I've already discussed at length, if you really think a girlfriend is what will make you happy, then you won't see much merit in doing anything else. Trust me, I've been there. In the time that I chased E in high school or any of my big crushes on other friends in college, if any of them got a hold of me and asked me to hang out, you bet that I'd immediately drop what I was doing and make them a priority. I'm going to assume you'd do the same thing

Heh, not really. I've never actually had a scheduling conflict between friends and a girl. I'll leave it up to you to think about why.

As for other opportunities, I was trying to go after other girls while I was pursuing D. I remember one semester I was turned down by five other girls, and D was the only one who would hang out with me...

. Note that the definition of clingy that most people have defined so far has related to the anount of contact that you initiate with the girl.

I guess that does make sense.

But the simple thing is, I was the one to initiate most communication and hang outs with every girl I have ever hung out with.

Did that make me clingy or needy? I don't think so, it just meant that I was the one who initiated.

However, I found that you often waited around for her to respond to your messages and would get frustrated when she wouldn't. That's a natural instinct, I can't fault you for that. You didn't like it at all when she would make plans then bail, did you? She was one person, yet she had the power of a dictator, as did E.

Yes I did get frustrated when it took her a long time to reply. I interpreted it as a sign that she didn't care about me that much, and of course I was right.

As for bailing after plans were made, she never did that. Once plans were set, they always went though.

If my main goal was to get a girlfriend though, why didn't I accept failure and try to get out of the tunnel? Honestly, I can't answer that.

Accept failure? As in give up?

When I really like somebody, giving up is a very hard thing to do. Usually something needs to happen where I can fully understand why things are not going to work for me to give up.

In using some much mind power in trying to work things out with a girl that I've idolized in my mind, I completely missed opportunities with other great girls. Three examples below:

The common denominator in all three of these was I was impaired by tunnel vision. Instead of letting things happen organically with girls A, B, or C, I was so bent on getting a girlfriend that I subconsciously fixated on other girls. I don't know why I let this happen, it just did.

I'm jealous that you actually had some opportunities with girls.

Stuff like that just hasn't happened with me; well unless I don't couple of obese girls that liked me. And even then, the "crushes" they had on me were very brief, they changed their mind before anything could happen.

Such is my luck.

And you were able to get first dates- great! My so called friends back in the day that told me I was going to die alone- turns out they've never even been on a formal date with a girl and were just projecting their insecurities against me. Even if things look bleak, you're certainly not even close to the bottom of the barrel. Naturally, we don't like rejection. Most fear it, and that's a natural response. If you do it enough, you can either 1. become immune to it, or 2. begin to overthink and let it affect your future behavior (see tunnel vision explanation above). You've succeeded in the past, what's to make you think it can't happen again? All you have to do is try again!

Actually, I figure I've had about three official first dates, meaning there was a possibility of more than a friendship occurring, but.....

For the first girl we had a decent date but I never saw her again

Second girl brought a guy friend and completely ruined the date, and yes she knew I wanted a date.

Third girl told me that she didn't want to get to know me better.

I never got anything more than a hug out of any of those girls. So three first dates so far at 30 years old. That's pretty horrible.

That's all for now, this post took me a long time to write and I'll get more later.

July 29, 2012

There is nothing more than I want than to be able to go back in time and try a different approach with D.

Didn't you say the last thing you wanted to do was talk more about D? So why do you want nothing more than to go back in time and try a different approach with D? This is an oxymoron. You can't move on if you're still trapped in the past. You can choose to stay in the past, but I hope you understand this.

So you won't write a full paragraph describing her because in your words you are trying to move on, but you'd happily daydream about having another chance with her. Do you see the paradox there? Just letting you know: this is how people build their perceptions of you, online and REAL LIFE. So you said you want to move on and thus that's why you refuse to write a full paragraph describing her. BUT HERE I see it's probably more likely that you really didn't know her that well at all, and that's why you're refusing, not because you want to move on. People pick up on subtle things like this.

I do understand just staying at home and not doing much. I just don't really like going out by myself that much. If I'm going to be alone, I rather be home where I have a few things to pass the time.

That's why people suggest taking small steps. Instead of spending a Friday night home alone surfing the net and playing video games by yourself, try taking a book to the local coffee shop. Buy a drink, sit there and read. And if you see someone that catches your eye, or maybe reading the same book/author, you can try striking up a convo. It would help build up your social skills.

Even if you don't socialize at all, I think a night out of the house and IN PUBLIC just by yourself would help break up the monotony in your life.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to either be at school, your retail job, or home. You're rarely at a book store, at the mall, at a coffee shop, and so forth, right? Mostly just classes, work place or home?

But the simple thing is, I was the one to initiate most communication and hang outs with every girl I have ever hung out with.

Did that make me clingy or needy? I don't think so, it just meant that I was the one who initiated.

It depends. Like the example I quoted with D, where you called her, left her a voicemail, then sent her a text and then ANOTHER text all before she responded... that is being clingy. Do you know how suffocated that can make a person feel? You sent the voicemail, you should have stopped there and waited for her to respond.

Instead you sent her 2 more texts within 5 hours.

You can say you call that "initiating." Most people would call that "smothering/being clingy."

You even admitted in that post that you left work with a new feeling of happiness because your boss gave you the shift off and you were looking forward to hanging out with D. If you had friends or other interests in life, you could have left D that voicemail and then instead of texting her unnecessarily, called a friend or engaged in a hobby.

That's why Cold says tunnel vision actually impedes. Putting girls on a pedestal, putting all your hopes on one girl (who doesn't even want to date you) is a recipe for disaster.

We warned you in that topic I recall, but you were adamant about doing it your way. We all saw the implosion long before you did. We certainly don't know everything, but it might be prudent for you to push aside your ego and admit that we do know some things which you are still trying to learn.

Don't take this the wrong way i.e. who is right and who is wrong or LoveShack vs. SD episode #323. Try to learn that we speak from personal experience and have been down the road you're traveling on currently. So it might be wise to take some of our tips to heart and apply 'em!

Edited July 29, 2012 by Teknoe

July 29, 2012

So you won't write a full paragraph describing her because in your words you are trying to move on, but you'd happily daydream about having another chance with her. Do you see the paradox there? Just letting you know: this is how people build their perceptions of you, online and REAL LIFE. So you said you want to move on and thus that's why you refuse to write a full paragraph describing her. BUT HERE I see it's probably more likely that you really didn't know her that well at all, and that's why you're refusing, not because you want to move on. People pick up on subtle things like this.

Correct. I'm not sure though if SomeDude even understands or recognizes this? If he doesn't, it's not necessarily his fault, but he would be wise to learn from it. This goes back to whenever he says things like "I won't tell a girl that I'm boring / have no friends / am obsessed with her" etc. You don't have to say a word. People can figure it out even if you don't say it, especially after a while. And I'd definitely call "2 years" a while.

I do understand just staying at home and not doing much. I just don't really like going out by myself that much. If I'm going to be alone, I rather be home where I have a few things to pass the time.

I can appreciate being a homebody. To be honest, I can be a homebody from time to time. So is Beth. But we do love to see our friends, go places and we make it a point to get out at least 3 weekends a month.

Balance and variety are good things.

Just think of it this way: your internet, your favorite message boards (like LoveShack), your Netflix movies, your video games... they're ALL gonna be there still at home when you come back.

In closing, here's a great quote for you:

Every man dies, but very few men ever truly LIVE.

If you chew on it, let it sink deep in your soul and make conscious choices to constantly take one small step out of your comfort zone day by day, week by week, I guarantee you your world will change for the better. Can't be half-arsed, though. Really gotta jump in with both feet. Can't say "I tried it for a bit and then quit because it wasn't my thing."

Commit to stepping out of your comfort zone the next time you come to a decision of "Do I go out and try ______, or do I stay home tonight?"

Do it consistently, and you will begin to make a shift in your life and create your own opportunities and breaks. It's as simple (yet difficult) as stepping out of your comfort zone, one step at a time, one day at a time.

Every man dies, but very few men ever truly LIVE.

July 29, 2012

Didn't you say the last thing you wanted to do was talk more about D? So why do you want nothing more than to go back in time and try a different approach with D? This is an oxymoron. You can't move on if you're still trapped in the past. You can choose to stay in the past, but I hope you understand this.

So you won't write a full paragraph describing her because in your words you are trying to move on, but you'd happily daydream about having another chance with her. Do you see the paradox there? Just letting you know: this is how people build their perceptions of you, online and REAL LIFE. So you said you want to move on and thus that's why you refuse to write a full paragraph describing her. BUT HERE I see it's probably more likely that you really didn't know her that well at all, and that's why you're refusing, not because you want to move on. People pick up on subtle things like this.

So you don't understand the difference between me not wanting to write a lot about somebody I failed with versus wishing I could try again so I wouldn't fail?

Even if you don't socialize at all, I think a night out of the house and IN PUBLIC just by yourself would help break up the monotony in your life.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to either be at school, your retail job, or home. You're rarely at a book store, at the mall, at a coffee shop, and so forth, right? Mostly just classes, work place or home?

You are aware that at my retail job, I have to interact with people all the time?

It depends. Like the example I quoted with D, where you called her, left her a voicemail, then sent her a text and then ANOTHER text all before she responded... that is being clingy. Do you know how suffocated that can make a person feel? You sent the voicemail, you should have stopped there and waited for her to respond.

Instead you sent her 2 more texts within 5 hours.

You can say you call that "initiating." Most people would call that "smothering/being clingy."

You even admitted in that post that you left work with a new feeling of happiness because your boss gave you the shift off and you were looking forward to hanging out with D.

Wow you are still talking about that post.

Did you ever think about the context?

I believe that I said I hadn't seen her in a while and that day was the only I was going to have free for the rest of the week. Yes I got frustrated when she didn't reply in what I believed to be a timely manner.

Though tell me this, is trying to contact somebody three times in one day truly clingy? There are stories of people checking their phone and somebody sent them 20 texts in an hour. I could have done a lot worse. Of course that's all in the past now, and happened over a year ago.

I haven't even tried to make plans or contact a girl in over seven months.

If you had friends or other interests in life, you could have left D that voicemail and then instead of texting her unnecessarily, called a friend or engaged in a hobby.

Engaging in a hobby is exactly what I did but yes I didn't have any friends I could have called to hang out with.

Putting girls on a pedestal, putting all your hopes on one girl (who doesn't even want to date you) is a recipe for disaster.

Wow, that's new and exciting information!

July 29, 2012

Though tell me this, is trying to contact somebody three times in one day truly clingy? There are stories of people checking their phone and somebody sent them 20 texts in an hour. I could have done a lot worse. Of course that's all in the past now, and happened over a year ago.

Yes, 3 unanswered texts in a day to a girl that you are not dating, is clingy. 20 unanswered texts in an hour is bat shi* crazy!

July 29, 2012

So you don't understand the difference between me not wanting to write a lot about somebody I failed with versus wishing I could try again so I wouldn't fail?

I guess you don't see how people read between the lines with your actions. You're still talking about D after all this, and yet when you challenged Meeks to ask you questions, you folded your tent and refused. I was trying to give you the benefit of the doubt that like you said, you are just trying to move on, but now that you've shared you still daydream about her and having another chance, it's more likely that you don't know her well enough to write a substantial paragraph about her.

Just letting you know this is how people read other people, both online and in real life. So you don't need to say something necessarily for people to know. They can and will piece information together over time through natural interaction.

You are aware that at my retail job, I have to interact with people all the time?

You also posted once how your boss "hates on you" and that doesn't sound too good to me. You also posted about a female coworker who would say around you "Hey look everyone, it's Somedude! Here, take out the trash." That sounds incredibly sarcastic on her part (not flirting at all). I can't tell for sure but just piecing this type of information together, it doesn't seem like you hold a high position at your retail job.

It's one thing to say "Hey look, I work a retail job and you know, I have to interact with people all the time" versus "I work retail and I'm the best and most well respected worker there."

I believe that I said I hadn't seen her in a while and that day was the only I was going to have free for the rest of the week. Yes I got frustrated when she didn't reply in what I believed to be a timely manner.

Though tell me this, is trying to contact somebody three times in one day truly clingy? There are stories of people checking their phone and somebody sent them 20 texts in an hour. I could have done a lot worse.

Sure, but you could always do worse. How about changing up your mindset and asking yourself "How can I do better?"

And like Ronin explained, yes, it is clingy. You said it yourself SD. It was your one free day and YOU wanted to see her. Have you ever thought if maybe she was busy that day? Or that she was just trying to slowly cut off contact as to discourage you from further pursuing her "friendship" ?

You made it all about YOU. One voice message, and that's it. Leave it there. That's all I'm saying. And that I find it laughable that you think you are not clingy or have ever shown signs of clinginess. Again, I think your self-assessment is off more than you'd like to believe. It's probably the #1 reason (or right up there) with why you struggle so much, and have been struggling all these years. Your self-assessment and coming up with strategies to experience breakthroughs in life both need major improvement.

Wow, that's new and exciting information!

First off, I appreciate your sarcastic attitude (not). Secondly, you have shown time and time again that you are very prone to falling into this trap, and nothing you've shown gives anyone a good feeling that the next girl interest who comes along won't have you caught up in the same web.

So the question becomes: why do you know this isn't new and exciting information, YET everytime you fall for it as though you didn't know?

Your quest in life is to get a GF. That's already at a pedestal level. I've said it before: self-sabotage. When are you going to change things up with your life(style)? Imajerk hit the nail on the head: you can make peace with what you're not willing to do (i.e. church single group, OLD, speed dating, etc.), but just understand the more things you say NO to, the less your chances will be of meeting a girl

Edited July 29, 2012 by Teknoe

July 30, 2012

Okay, I read the first and last page of this thread because it's too damn long lol. Here's some general things. Maybe I'll do one more specific later to women and relationships...If you want you can reply to each one of these and I'll give some feedback.

Live in the present moment. Do not get stuck in the past. Do not worry too much the future.

You cannot control or change, how people think or what they do. At best you can control or change yourself, which in turn affects those around you.

In addition, do not focus on what you cannot realistically change but on what you can readily change.

Always be honest with yourself and willing to laugh at yourself.

Do not worry about what other people think because they're worrying about what you think about them.

Do not take life too seriously. After all, you are just one person among the tons of people that have ever existed and will exist (hopefully).

Don't take life too personally. Someone will always dislike you and you won't always like everyone you meet (both male and female).

Always respect people even if you disagree or hate their guts.

Learn to forgive people and move on

Learn how to really listen

The only choice you really have is to be yourself. The other choice is to be unhappy.

Always do you first

Do not expect more of other people than you expect of yourself

Happiness is not a right. It is a process, always a work-in-progress.

Wisdom comes from understanding, not just experience and knowledge

There is always somebody worse off than you.

There are no guarantees in life and thus there is no guarantee you will find someone to be with.

If you do not try, you have automatically failed.

YOLO

I saw you asking about game and charm. That is something that can really only be learned from doing. Ultimately it's about knowing how to respond to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve.

BTW, where you at in socal?

Edited July 30, 2012 by McMahal

July 30, 2012

Okay, I read the first and last page of this thread because it's too damn long lol. Here's some general things. Maybe I'll do one more specific later to women and relationships...If you want you can reply to each one of these and I'll give some feedback.

Live in the present moment. Do not get stuck in the past. Do not worry too much the future.

You cannot control or change, how people think or what they do. At best you can control or change yourself, which in turn affects those around you.

In addition, do not focus on what you cannot realistically change but on what you can readily change.

Always be honest with yourself and willing to laugh at yourself.

Do not worry about what other people think because they're worrying about what you think about them.

Do not take life too seriously. After all, you are just one person among the tons of people that have ever existed and will exist (hopefully).

Don't take life too personally. Someone will always dislike you and you won't always like everyone you meet (both male and female).

Always respect people even if you disagree or hate their guts.

Learn to forgive people and move on

Learn how to really listen

The only choice you really have is to be yourself. The other choice is to be unhappy.

Always do you first

Do not expect more of other people than you expect of yourself

Happiness is not a right. It is a process, always a work-in-progress.

Wisdom comes from understanding, not just experience and knowledge

There is always somebody worse off than you.

There are no guarantees in life and thus there is no guarantee you will find someone to be with.

If you do not try, you have automatically failed.

YOLO

I saw you asking about game and charm. That is something that can really only be learned from doing. Ultimately it's about knowing how to respond to achieve whatever it is you want to achieve.

BTW, where you at in socal?

I was with you until you said YOLO

I kid. Good stuff .

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